Fiannan Posted November 9, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 Number of Lutherans worldwideEurope – between 49.3 and 51.3 millionOh my gosh, that many Lutherans in Europe? Does that include the 7 million or so in Sweden???? I would seriously doubt even 10% go to church and maybe 1/5 actually believe in their church. Intersting:The declining number of Lutherans in Sweden corresponds to a wider trend in Europe, where there were 36,001,617 Lutherans at the end of 2003, representing a decrease of 640,467 from 2001, according to figures released by the Lutheran World Federation at the end of February.http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_...121/ai_n5994670Almost a quarter of a million Swedes have officially quit the Lutheran Church since the year 2000. Many stay because to die and not be a member means they cannot be buried in a Lutheran graveyard with their ancestors nor can they have a church wedding.Like I said, some people worldwide just don't take their names off the membership. My wife is technically a Lutheran as is her sister, brother and parents. But they aren't Lutheran in any sense of the word.And if you think the situation in Norway and Finland is any different, think again.And speaking of "modern thinking, which Lutheran ministers are following God's word -- the minoarity or the majority?Sweden's Lutheran church, to which 80 percent of Swedes nominally belong but few attend, faces a revolt by more than 700 of its 5,000 priests over a decision to bless gay couples.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9840787/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dizzysmiles Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 wow people listen to yourselfs, it seems when we fight about something its becasue we are trying to say we are right. I think that were both right, finan just becasue someone isnt having a certain amount of children doesn't mean thats all they cannot bear, so if someone had two kids and the mother couldnt have anymore it shuoldnt be shamed upon. about b.c i used to think if we didnt use bc the lord would provide as many as were needed, but then i thought no we have our agency and we need to be smart about children and relize we should ask thge lord and not just wait till its given to us,m otherwise what about druggies on the streets or prostitutes that are getting pregnant without b.c is it becasue the lord wants them to? no its called free agency and we should be one with our spouse and go to the lord for the matter. I think that waiting to have children for worldly things the lord wont be pleased with but i think having children just becasue and not caring for their needs i dont think the lord will be happy with that. why cant we just be happy with our lives and instead of pointing fingers at couples with or without children we point that finger at ourselves and look at our own lives and until we are perfect point at others.. so it goes both ways if someone wants 12 kids dont put them down for it as long as they are doing everything they can to give the right care and teachings as a parent. if someone wants 2 and thats all they can handle dont judge them. we never know what reasons are sometimes its more than what you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maureen Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 Originally posted by Fiannan@Nov 9 2005, 10:35 AMOh my gosh, that many Lutherans in Europe? Does that include the 7 million or so in Sweden???? I would seriously doubt even 10% go to church and maybe 1/5 actually believe in their church…Almost a quarter of a million Swedes have officially quit the Lutheran Church since the year 2000. Many stay because to die and not be a member means they cannot be buried in a Lutheran graveyard with their ancestors nor can they have a church wedding.Like I said, some people worldwide just don't take their names off the membership. My wife is technically a Lutheran as is her sister, brother and parents. But they aren't Lutheran in any sense of the word.And if you think the situation in Norway and Finland is any different, think again.And speaking of "modern thinking, which Lutheran ministers are following God's word -- the minoarity or the majority?I’m not sure what the Lutheran Church in Sweden-Inactive Members-Gay situation has anything to do with birth control, but whatever turns you on.There are many religious denominations that have member records that do not match member activity, even in the LDS church. That’s what choice is about. People join/are born into a church, get bored or something happens that makes them stop going - it happens. Peoples’ right to choose still matters, whether they are of a religious group or not. Lutherans in Sweden might become extinct, but the people who once called themselves Lutheran still live on.M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiannan Posted November 9, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 Quite simple Maureen -- I suspect you are an active Lutheran as you list it in your profile. If even active Lutherans have bought into what Protestantism generally regarded as contrary to God and promote birth control as totally okay -- and childbearing as an option, nothing more, then the shrinking numbers may be a reflection. Also, mainstream Protestantism is declining overall anyway. One reason generally cited is that younger members who thirst for God's message (and not a Star Trek, Joseph Campbell version of God) are quiting and joining fundamentalist churches. Less devout young people figure why waste your Sunday's just to fill a seat and hear a nice, non-offensive message and choose other activities instead. The attempt to make Christianity more modern just makes it a shell that most people choose not to devote their time or talents to. Now the issue (at least in Euro-land) is gay marriage in the Lutheran church. The article points out that the majority of priests in Sweden are okay with it and a minority is quite opposed to it. So who is right about God and blessing gay marriage? And who is right about God and the ideal Christian attitude towards kids and "being fruitful and multiplying..."? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maureen Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Originally posted by Fiannan@Nov 9 2005, 02:12 PMSo who is right about God and blessing gay marriage?I have no idea. I’m not necessarily for or against gay marriage; I’m ambivalent. I believe God loves all mankind. Homosexuality may be a sin, but so is being cruel to your fellowman. No one is perfect. If certain churches wish to accept and conduct gay marriages; that is their choice. Maybe it will all come down to karma – we reap what we sow, and time will tell if that decision works out for mankind in his favor or against. And who is right about God and the ideal Christian attitude towards kids and "being fruitful and multiplying..."?You may have missed this but it is not just Christians you reproduce. It is a human survival instinct to reproduce. Pagans, Heathens, Moslems, Jews and even Atheists have this desire to bring offspring into the world, for many of the same reasons Christians do. So even if all the Christians in the world decided to limit their reproduction abilities, I’m sure there are others out there that can make up the difference.M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john doe Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Ben, I agree with what you said, but I don't agree with the thought that just because someone doesn't have a large amount of children, they must not be consulting God about that decision. And just because someone pops out kids at the rate of one per year, does not mean they are righteous, it only means that they are fertile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Originally posted by Fiannan@Nov 8 2005, 10:54 PMThat's the LDS Church's OFFICIAL stand. ←Is there any scriptural support whatsoever that one must have any minimum number of children as a condition of salvation or exaltation?Er - no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenRaines Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 John Doe, Perhaps I was misunderstood. In a perfect world a couple would consult with the Lord in determining family size but I have never said it was a perfect world. All do not believe in God or Christ. Many do not ask or would rather not ask and I have never looked down on anyone for family size or lack of children. I believe that is a personal decision and one that we each will answer for not to each other but our own conscience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john doe Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Actually, Ben. it was Fiannan whom I quoted as claiming that people with small families don't consult with the Lord, not you. I was addressing his snap judgements of others, and was not addressing anything you had said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanstress70 Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Fiannan, if I were you, I don't know that I would make an argument about how many inactive members any church has. The LDS church SUPPOSEDLY has 12 million members (FAR fewer than the Lutheran Church), and MANY of those 12 million are inactive or total nonbelievers. They will never remove their names for family reasons (ie, they don't want to be disowned by the parents). One of the biggest geographic areas for growth for the LDS church is in S. America. Have you heard about attendance records at those areas? Not so good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrawberryFields Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 I know people who don't have more children because they want their children to have material possessions they they didn't have as a child...is that wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Member_Deleted Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Nov 10 2005, 09:35 AMI know people who don't have more children because they want their children to have material possessions they they didn't have as a child...is that wrong?←No. We should want to do better for our children... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrawberryFields Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Originally posted by Please+Nov 10 2005, 11:10 AM--><!--QuoteBegin-Strawberry Fields@Nov 10 2005, 09:35 AMI know people who don't have more children because they want their children to have material possessions they they didn't have as a child...is that wrong? ← No. We should want to do better for our children... ← Interesting. The man I am referring to came from a large family (six kids) and his wife came from a small family (two living kids). The man tells it like his family life was less then because there wasn't enough money to get the kids the finest and he wants that for his children. The wife had pretty much what she wanted growing up but she didn't have the gospel like her husbands family did and she was also lonely at times with a small family. This couple wanted two different things but the man won out. It's sad to me that money was the deciding factor in this couples choice in choosing the size of their family. This family has more then enough money and could have easily supported more children very comfortably Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Member_Deleted Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Nov 10 2005, 11:40 AM-->Originally posted by Please@Nov 10 2005, 11:10 AM <!--QuoteBegin-Strawberry Fields@Nov 10 2005, 09:35 AMI know people who don't have more children because they want their children to have material possessions they they didn't have as a child...is that wrong? ← No. We should want to do better for our children... ← Interesting. The man I am referring to came from a large family (six kids) and his wife came from a small family (two living kids). The man tells it like his family life was less then because there wasn't enough money to get the kids the finest and he wants that for his children. The wife had pretty much what she wanted growing up but she didn't have the gospel like her husbands family did and she was also lonely at times with a small family. This couple wanted two different things but the man won out. It's sad to me that money was the deciding factor in this couples choice in choosing the size of their family. This family has more then enough money and could have easily supported more children very comfortably←I would hope there could be a balance...and more especially...a satisfactory and mutual agreement on how many children a couple would have... and not have this 'winning' thing when it comes to such a fundamentally important family and couple relationship...decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrawberryFields Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Originally posted by Please+Nov 10 2005, 11:48 AM-->Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Nov 10 2005, 11:40 AMOriginally posted by Please@Nov 10 2005, 11:10 AM <!--QuoteBegin-Strawberry Fields@Nov 10 2005, 09:35 AMI know people who don't have more children because they want their children to have material possessions they they didn't have as a child...is that wrong? ← No. We should want to do better for our children... ← Interesting. The man I am referring to came from a large family (six kids) and his wife came from a small family (two living kids). The man tells it like his family life was less then because there wasn't enough money to get the kids the finest and he wants that for his children. The wife had pretty much what she wanted growing up but she didn't have the gospel like her husbands family did and she was also lonely at times with a small family. This couple wanted two different things but the man won out. It's sad to me that money was the deciding factor in this couples choice in choosing the size of their family. This family has more then enough money and could have easily supported more children very comfortably ← I would hope there could be a balance...and more especially...a satisfactory and mutual agreement on how many children a couple would have... and not have this 'winning' thing when it comes to such a fundamentally important family and couple relationship...decision. ← But Please the man holds the priesthood......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiannan Posted November 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Strawberry Fields relates this:The man tells it like his family life was less then because there wasn't enough money to get the kids the finest and he wants that for his children. Yes, wearing costly apparell is a very important goal -- one of the most important lessons of the Book of Mormon.Honestly, why don't individuals try to discover what the person they are dating wants in life? I know a guy who is quite affectionate, loves the outdoors and has a very positive outlook on life. He married a gal who thinks sex twice a month is a chore, absolutely hates the outdoors and is about as depressive as the robot on "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy".The first date I took my wife on was a hike in the mountains. Our first meal together was chicken strips and coal slaw while on that trip purchased at Albertson's. She loved the adventure -- so I know that she and I would share a very important characteristic in life. She and I also, very early on, were quite frank on sex -- let's just say she asked about certain activities because she knew some Mormons were quite prudish about...let's leave that off the board for now. We also discussed kids, and just about everything under the sun.That's what I teach my kids to do once they are older. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Member_Deleted Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Nov 10 2005, 11:54 AM-->Originally posted by Please@Nov 10 2005, 11:48 AM Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Nov 10 2005, 11:40 AMOriginally posted by Please@Nov 10 2005, 11:10 AM <!--QuoteBegin-Strawberry Fields@Nov 10 2005, 09:35 AMI know people who don't have more children because they want their children to have material possessions they they didn't have as a child...is that wrong? ← No. We should want to do better for our children... ← Interesting. The man I am referring to came from a large family (six kids) and his wife came from a small family (two living kids). The man tells it like his family life was less then because there wasn't enough money to get the kids the finest and he wants that for his children. The wife had pretty much what she wanted growing up but she didn't have the gospel like her husbands family did and she was also lonely at times with a small family. This couple wanted two different things but the man won out. It's sad to me that money was the deciding factor in this couples choice in choosing the size of their family. This family has more then enough money and could have easily supported more children very comfortably ← I would hope there could be a balance...and more especially...a satisfactory and mutual agreement on how many children a couple would have... and not have this 'winning' thing when it comes to such a fundamentally important family and couple relationship...decision. ← But Please the man holds the priesthood.........←Are you saying that with a straight face???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrawberryFields Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 I know people who don't have more children because they want their children to have material possessions they they didn't have as a child...is that wrong? ← No. We should want to do better for our children... ← Interesting. The man I am referring to came from a large family (six kids) and his wife came from a small family (two living kids). The man tells it like his family life was less then because there wasn't enough money to get the kids the finest and he wants that for his children. The wife had pretty much what she wanted growing up but she didn't have the gospel like her husbands family did and she was also lonely at times with a small family. This couple wanted two different things but the man won out. It's sad to me that money was the deciding factor in this couples choice in choosing the size of their family. This family has more then enough money and could have easily supported more children very comfortably ← I would hope there could be a balance...and more especially...a satisfactory and mutual agreement on how many children a couple would have... and not have this 'winning' thing when it comes to such a fundamentally important family and couple relationship...decision. ← But Please the man holds the priesthood.........←Are you saying that with a straight face???? ←You KNOW me better then that. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Member_Deleted Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 LOL yes I do.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenRaines Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Prophets have recently and over the year spoken out about how important it is for the mother to be in the home and there for the children and the different roles we all play in a family. They have spoken out against both parents working to provide the nicer things in life and the extravagant vacations, etc. They also recognize that at times both may have to work due to job loss, health reasons, under-education, etc. but that it should be a temporary fix and not a permanent one. While saying that I am also aware that Stake Presidents and Bishops have wives that work for one reason or another. I like the words said " I teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves" We are not commanded in all things we are taught how the Lord would have us be and then we are free to chose how we will be. It is our agency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrawberryFields Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Originally posted by Fiannan@Nov 10 2005, 11:56 AM Strawberry Fields relates this: The man tells it like his family life was less then because there wasn't enough money to get the kids the finest and he wants that for his children. Yes, wearing costly apparell is a very important goal -- one of the most important lessons of the Book of Mormon. Honestly, why don't individuals try to discover what the person they are dating wants in life? I know a guy who is quite affectionate, loves the outdoors and has a very positive outlook on life. He married a gal who thinks sex twice a month is a chore, absolutely hates the outdoors and is about as depressive as the robot on "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy". The first date I took my wife on was a hike in the mountains. Our first meal together was chicken strips and coal slaw while on that trip purchased at Albertson's. She loved the adventure -- so I know that she and I would share a very important characteristic in life. She and I also, very early on, were quite frank on sex -- let's just say she asked about certain activities because she knew some Mormons were quite prudish about...let's leave that off the board for now. We also discussed kids, and just about everything under the sun. That's what I teach my kids to do once they are older. ← You know Flannan, THIS time I agree with you. BUT They don't teach that in the LDS Church. They teach you all you have to do is marry a returned missionary and all your dreams will come true. When a girl meets a guy she isn't thinking someday this guy (who has absolutely nothing right now) will place the things of the world above the things of eternity. People can also change they can say what ever they think you want to hear and then throw it all away. I have seen people change dramatically once they were tied into a celestial marriage or even a marriage for that matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Member_Deleted Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Originally posted by BenRaines@Nov 10 2005, 12:01 PMProphets have recently and over the year spoken out about how important it is for the mother to be in the home and there for the children and the different roles we all play in a family. They have spoken out against both parents working to provide the nicer things in life and the extravagant vacations, etc. They also recognize that at times both may have to work due to job loss, health reasons, under-education, etc. but that it should be a temporary fix and not a permanent one. While saying that I am also aware that Stake Presidents and Bishops have wives that work for one reason or another. I like the words said " I teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves" We are not commanded in all things we are taught how the Lord would have us be and then we are free to chose how we will be. It is our agency.←I believe that the Lord gives no commandment unto the children of men save he prepares a way for them to accomplish it... but I also believe there is always room for variations and accomadations of individual needs and circumstances... thus the governing ourselves... upon corredct principles...Myself... I was told by the Spirit that I was never to work outside the home... I had some very interesting things happen which ultimately caused me to just obey the spiritual promptings...I babysat... and wrote books which were published which has given us enough extra money to accomadate our family...Yet I have a daughter-in-law who has a phobia of being alone in the house... without other adults... and therefore needs to work... while my son is at work... they haven't any children yet... but we will see how that one all turns out.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrawberryFields Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Originally posted by BenRaines@Nov 10 2005, 12:01 PM Prophets have recently and over the year spoken out about how important it is for the mother to be in the home and there for the children and the different roles we all play in a family. ← I did that. In many ways I believe it to be an injustice to women. I feel that they should have the agency to choose to work or not work. I feel that once my children are wanting to be on their own and leaving the nest I have lost my identity... an identity that had been placed on me by the prophets. Not everyone is the same. Yes I enjoyed the time I had with my children while they were young but now they need independence. I will encourage my daughter and my daughter in laws to still nurture who they are and who they want to me when the children are grown. I will encourage them to take classes and to develop their talents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Member_Deleted Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Originally posted by Strawberry Fields+Nov 10 2005, 12:27 PM--><!--QuoteBegin-BenRaines@Nov 10 2005, 12:01 PM Prophets have recently and over the year spoken out about how important it is for the mother to be in the home and there for the children and the different roles we all play in a family. ← I did that. In many ways I believe it to be an injustice to women. I feel that they should have the agency to choose to work or not work. I feel that once my children are wanting to be on their own and leaving the nest I have lost my identity... an identity that had been placed on me by the prophets. Not everyone is the same. Yes I enjoyed the time I had with my children while they were young but now they need independence. I will encourage my daughter and my daughter in laws to still nurture who they are and who they want to me when the children are grown. I will encourage them to take classes and to develop their talents.←Yet I have never lost my identity.... and still raised 7 kids... am still raising 7 kids... and have not worked outside the home for over 28 years...I have always maintained my identity... but didn't need a job to do that...is working in a burger king, albertsons, clerks office, government office an identity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrawberryFields Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Originally posted by Please+Nov 10 2005, 12:29 PM-->Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Nov 10 2005, 12:27 PM<!--QuoteBegin-BenRaines@Nov 10 2005, 12:01 PM Prophets have recently and over the year spoken out about how important it is for the mother to be in the home and there for the children and the different roles we all play in a family. ← I did that. In many ways I believe it to be an injustice to women. I feel that they should have the agency to choose to work or not work. I feel that once my children are wanting to be on their own and leaving the nest I have lost my identity... an identity that had been placed on me by the prophets. Not everyone is the same. Yes I enjoyed the time I had with my children while they were young but now they need independence. I will encourage my daughter and my daughter in laws to still nurture who they are and who they want to me when the children are grown. I will encourage them to take classes and to develop their talents. ← Yet I have never lost my identity.... and still raised 7 kids... am still raising 7 kids... and have not worked outside the home for over 28 years... I have always maintained my identity... but didn't need a job to do that... is working in a burger king, albertsons, clerks office, government office an identity? ← My dreams were much higher then the jobs you listed. My identity was that of a great mother and I was very needed by them. I gave myself to my children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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