Non-mormon, But Great Examples!

[Fiannan]

Not one country in Europe (except tiny Muslim Albania) has a birthrate of 2 children per woman. However, even if it were 2 it would still lead to decline because of the factors I have already cited. Nobody can insure that your two children will both be fertile, survive to reproductive age, will both marry and that then their children (if two per child) will be fertile, survive...

[begood2]

Fiannan,

If one man and one woman at age 24 had two children and we used this as a repeat pattern every 24 years ... then in another 24 yrs. the 2 offspring each have 2 offspring apiece the total number of people would be 4 adults and 4 children ... in another 24yrs. these new 4 offspring each have 2 offspring apiece and the total (assuming no one died prematurely) would be 8 children and 8 adults-2 adults or 6 adults ( the 2 original adults since at age 96 they are probably dead. in another 24yrs. the 8 offspring would have 16 children and the 14 adults -2 offspring adults would leave 12 adults.

This population growth is a geometric progression. Just because people's

average lifespan is only about 78 years, even having two children apiece, there would still be an increase in the total as the years went by.

[Heather]

17 people in a 2400 square feet home? YIKES! Stack them thin and stack them high. Home schooled too? I'll just keep my mouth shut.

[Fiannan]

Begood2, congradulations on your two people -- were the originals cloned or created ala Adam and Eve?

In the real world people the two kids would either have to marry each other (well, I guess if it was good enough to produce Cleopatra -- the Greeks didn't want to either dilute the royal bloodline or mix with Egyptians) or find mates from somewhere else. That means we don't have a closed system -- it is one that requires a lot of biology taking place from other individuals yet this symplistic model (used in many government schools to pretend to teach about so-called geometric population growth) assumes the final population count can be tabulated, but you aren't supposed to take notice of the other people contributing children to the little community.

Again, show me proof that two childen per family would lead to replacement unless you can cure all disease, protect against all accidental death, cure all infertility and insure everyone marries and produces genetically healthy offspring.

I'm waiting.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by dizzysmiles@Oct 27 2005, 05:59 PM

"Young married couples who postpone parenthood until their degfrees are attained might be shocked if their expressed preference was labeled idolatry. their rationalization ives them degrees at the expense of children. Is it a justifable exchange? who do they love and worship- themselves or God?  Other copuples, recognizing that life is not inteded primarily for comforts, ease, and luxuries, complete thtyeir educations while they move forward with full lives, having children and giving church and community service" (Miricle of Forgivness pg 41, second paragraph.)

Hmm, achieving an education before having children can be considered idolatry? Dictionary.com says that idolatry can mean:

Blind or excessive devotion to something

So then Mr. Kimball and yourself would say that achieving an education to later provide for your family is considered “excessive devotion” – that’s crazy. Believe it or not, going through the motions of preparing a home and a comfortable atmosphere ready for children is normal. Bringing children into the world to be parented by people who are stressed beyond what their mental health can handle is not normal. Mr. Kimball wrote his book in 1969. He was not President until 1973. I’m pretty sure this book is not considered doctrine; therefore the book is Mr. Kimball’s opinion. His own rationalization for not postponing children until you’re ready and able to provide for them is arguable. He’s trying to guilt people into thinking that their love for God is measured by how stressed they can make their lives by juggling too many serious responsibilities all at once. If you truly love God, then more than likely you also love yourself and your fellowman. If you truly care about the welfare of yourself and any future children, then you will do everything you can to give those children and yourself a normal, happy family life, not one stressed with worry and no time to devote to them – it’s just common sense.

M.

[dizzysmiles]

Well maureen, that is your own descision, but i have two children and my husband is going to school still, we are fine and i wouldn't trade what i have in life right now for anytihng,. And no im glad we had them when we did i dont regret it or regret being married young like a lot of people think. If you want to wait till your done with school go ahead, my sister is doing that so she can put her husband through school, she says it will be a shock to stop working when she has her kids and she will def. be in a wake up call. Just cause he wasn't called till then doesnt mean he cant recieve revalation, remeber DAvid int he bible? Remeber Joseph Smith when he was 14? Its the book that says it believe it or not.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by dizzysmiles@Oct 28 2005, 11:12 AM

Well maureen,...If you want to wait till your done with school go ahead...

dizzysmiles - I've had my kids, only two but they're all mine (actually 7 altogether, if you count my 5 cats that have been members of our family for the past 24 years). I'm in my mid-forties so I don't think I'll be having any more.

...my sister is doing that so she can put her husband through school, she says it will be a shock to stop working when she has her kids and she will def. be in a wake up call.

And how do you judge your sister? Do you constantly tell her she's a sinner because she's waiting until it's right for her to have children?

M.

[begood2]

Fiannan,

I made the example as simple as I could to show that it would increase. I have no problem with large or small families as long as the children are taken care of properly.

There are over 6 billion people in the world. There are about 12 million LDS. I don't think the 2 offspring from my example would have trouble finding mates without being cloned or marrying each other. If you look at the numbers I did not count the mates of the offspring in the running total of people.

The average life span in the US is about 78 years. To get that figure the ones that died earlier from cancer, heart disease, accidents, wars, etc. was combined with those that lived longer than 78 years. The total years lived was added up and divided by the number of people, to get that average.

I hope that you can see/understand what I have stated ... if not then I choose to respectfully agree to disagree and end it at that.

[Fiannan]

Begood2, the problem with your example is that it ignores that other people have to be making babies and contributing to the community that you have established. Those people ALSO have to be replacing themselves! That destroys your premise once it is analyzed because you make it appear that growth is taking place when, in reality, it is not because your original couple had to be produced by someone (replacing them?) and unless you have an entirely closed community (your original couple has a boy and girl who then have sex and make a boy and girl and their descendants do the same) then all you are doing is adding people to your mix but ignoring that they to are having to replace their parents.

Like I challenged people before, show me that having two kids per couple in a society can truly lead to replacement -- it does not and will eventually lead to extinction.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Oct 27 2005, 12:13 AM

I read an article once that said that if you have a hypothetical couple that only has two kids, and those kids only will be assumed to have 2 kids in ideal conditions, that variables such as infertility, non-marriage, mortality, etc. will probably insure that in 4 generations there will be NO genetic descendants from the original 2 parents.  Three kids is actually mere replacement and may (depending on variables) lead to some growth.  Maybe that's why one Church leader early in the 20th. Century said that couples who only have 2 or 3 kids are cheating themselves. 

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I once read that there was an woman that lived in a shoe and had so little money she didn't know what to do.

... but, as it turns out, that was just a fairytale.

Just goes to show that you shouldn't believe everything you read.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Oct 28 2005, 10:27 PM

Like I challenged people before, show me that having two kids per couple in a society can truly lead to replacement -- it does not and will eventually lead to extinction.

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Because some people die before they grow up and have their own children a total fertility rate pf 2.1 to 2.2 is required to maintain a zero population growth. In countries with low expectancies, a total fertility rate of 2.2. to 2.3 is required.

[dizzysmiles]

maureen, like I said earlier, I don;t judge people, I realy could care less what they do with their lives when it come to children. I know people out there waiting to adopt but can;t for a long time and mabey if i were one of them then it would be hard to see people not wanting any,. but that is not my case. Ive been through hell the last couple of months and really youcouldnt tell me anything that would make me hate or judge you, to know your not perfect makes me love you more. I love my sister * in law and thats her decision, plus my brother going into med school is kinda kid himself so she has a lot to do lol jk

[Snow]

Originally posted by dizzysmiles@Oct 27 2005, 10:40 AM

read the miricle of forgivness by spencer w,. kimball.  and you say you dont judge people for having a lot of kids, but sure sounds like we are..

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What Spencer Kimball actually says in The Miracle of Forgiveness is that failure to marry, or make every effort to do so is a sin and postponing children in marriage might be label idolatry as the would be parents are more intent upon accumulating wealth than in raising up righteous children.

Personally I think The Miracle of Forgiveness is a lousy book, not one that I could recommend. Elder Kimball calls masturbation a crime against nature. He says (if I recall correctly) that we (the members) would rather have our missionaries come home from their missions in a casket than come back sullied with a sin of immortality. Bull - that's not how I feel at all. If my son or daughter made a moral mistake on their mission, I certainly wouldn't want them dead. The thought is appalling. Even if that is not exactly what he meant and instead meant that a youth would be better off dead than immoral - that's still a disgusting thought to me.

He said something else that I find just as outrageous, namely that loss of chastity has far reaching effects and can never be regained, even in the case of rape. If the female victim of rape was not coorperative then she is in a more favorable position.

WHAT?

That's outrageous. One who is raped has not lost their chastity. Elder Kimball says that not cooperating with the rapist puts her is a "more favorable position," suggesting that it is not a completely favorable position that that she, the innocent victim, has done something that is not fully favorable. That's horrible. He goes on to say that it is better to die in defending your virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle. Give me a break. That's obscene.

That's the tone of the book, oppressive and blaming. I'm all for obedience and repentance and then more obedience and more repentance but all this blaming ######. It made me a very unhappy camper for a long time until I figured out how all this really works. When I stopped focusing on obey obey obey and then feel guilty guilty guilty when I don't and started focusing on learning the doctrine and letting the Savior into my life, and then my behavior naturally improved because my heart was changed - that's when I got happier.

There's some good stuff in the book and Elder Kimball taught some important concepts but nothing I want to read again.

[Fiannan]

What Spencer Kimball actually says in The Miracle of Forgiveness is that failure to marry, or make every effort to do so is a sin and postponing children in marriage might be label idolatry as the would be parents are more intent upon accumulating wealth than in raising up righteous children.

Amen, brother!

On other points:

Yes he does get down on masterbation, however, is it not true that traditionally Christianity, Judaism and Islam have seen this a fairly small sin (at least, regarding Christianity, when lust is focused on another person)? However, the point is that if one directs his/her sexual energies to themselves then some may lack the libido, or desire, to seek an opposite sex partner to truly fulfill the purpose of sexual relations. I know one guy (LDS background, but certainly innactive) that fits this perfectly -- that's why he still lives in his mother's house and he is in his mid-40s.

Also, studies on rape have generally shown that resistance to the rapist actually increases your chances of not being raped and/or murdered. My personal suggestion to women in the US is to get a concealed weapon's permit and weed the gene pool out if a rapist comes after you. In Wussieland (northern Europe) you can go to jail for seriously injuring or killing a potential rapist so I cannot comment on there.

[dizzysmiles]

He got that wrong, he said that he would rather his son die and be able to make it to the highest being then to break covenants and not come back to repentance becasue with out it we will not have the highest glory, if GOd is perfect and we are what he once was then we have to become what he is, and therefopre like a parent who once was a child has to teach their children into becomin a parrent, the book is to make you repent and get a clean slate. but at the same time no i woudlnt want anyone to die, but i would want to be a forever family and if you make a mistake and want to change thats dicfferent from someone who doesnt think its wrong. Look at lori hackings husbands parents. i bet they would rather their son die then be a murderer and can't be with them forever in celestial glory. at least lori's parents can be with her and she is ok. As for the rape thing, that is not what he said and i would like to see your qoutes that your talking about. You misunderstood that part big time.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Oct 29 2005, 11:41 AM

What Spencer Kimball actually says in The Miracle of Forgiveness is that failure to marry, or make every effort to do so is a sin and postponing children in marriage might be label idolatry as the would be parents are more intent upon accumulating wealth than in raising up righteous children.

Amen, brother!

On other points:

Yes he does get down on masterbation, however, is it not true that traditionally Christianity, Judaism and Islam have seen this a fairly small sin (at least, regarding Christianity, when lust is focused on another person)? However, the point is that if one directs his/her sexual energies to themselves then some may lack the libido, or desire, to seek an opposite sex partner to truly fulfill the purpose of sexual relations. I know one guy (LDS background, but certainly innactive) that fits this perfectly -- that's why he still lives in his mother's house and he is in his mid-40s.

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I wouldn't be too quick to judge those who don't get married and are still living with their parents at an old age.... I know a guy who still wets the bed and is over 40. He can't find a woman who wants to deal with that one... is it his fault? Another problem is thumb sucking... believe me... these guys are not being unmarried cause they have wanted to...

[dizzysmiles]

Hey Jason, You say that the catholic church doesnt tell you when to be baptised and thats what you like about it, instead of being eight and an age to decide if they want the holy ghost, your church just doesnt ask the newborn if they want to be sprinkled? mabey thats why they havent asked becasue your not a baby.? am i right?

[Snow]

On other points:

Yes he does get down on masterbation, however, is it not true that traditionally Christianity, Judaism and Islam have seen this a fairly small sin (at least, regarding Christianity, when lust is focused on another person)? u can go to jail for seriously injuring or killing a potential rapist so I cannot comment on there.

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It's not that I'm saying 'self-abuse' is good and people should do it. If you read my other stuff you know I try to say out of other adults bedroom. I am saying, however, to call masturbation a 'crime against nature' is way over the top. Seems that it right in line with our nature. Rising above our nature may be good but calling it a crime? Sheeze!

[Fiannan]

Don't forget though, when Protestants have condemned masterbation citing Onan they miss one pretty major point -- Onan was killed by God for disobedience and using the withdrawal method of birth control (purposely avoiding impregnating the woman he was to impregnate).

[pushka]

Snow, I started to attend the LDS church in 1978, when Spencer Kimball was president, and I remember being taught those things that you said he wrote about it being better to die defending your virtue than to allow the rapist to rape you, and survive...it was scary stuff! I didn't know it was from a book he'd written at the time, it was taught to me and my friends in the Sunday School part of the Sunday services as if it was the Church's beliefs...I still thought that was how the church viewed rape today...thanks for letting me know otherwise.

[dizzysmiles]

Pushkla, I would rather defend and fight agianst therapist and die, then letting the man do evil things worse then death to my body. The person who is raped is not evil, it wasn't thier choice

[Fiannan]

A 9mm in your purse, plus one sicko rapist charging you, equals a dead rapist. That's my philosophy on this issue.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Oct 30 2005, 01:28 PM

A 9mm in your purse, plus one sicko rapist charging you, equals a dead rapist.  That's my philosophy on this issue.

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Do YOU carry a purse?

[Fiannan]

No, but it's usually women who need to worry about rapists. And a 9mm is generally considered an ideal gun for female protection.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Oct 31 2005, 12:04 AM

No, but it's usually women who need to worry about rapists.  And a 9mm is generally considered an ideal gun for female protection.

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OK. I didn't know that.