Jesus in the Garden

[Vanhin]

The bottom line is, that is why we believe what we believe. At this point you seem to be simply ignoring the relevant facts and information that we provide, because they do not support your hypothesis. That would be the definition of intellectual dishonesty. Do you really want to know why we believe what we believe, or are you trying to accomplish some other purpose? What is it that you are trying to accomplish?

Regards,

Vanhin

[john doe]

I've got a question: what do you have against the Garden of Gethsemane? Why do you insist on diminishing its importance to the story? The LDS here have given you the references and reasons why we feel it was important. And yet you wish to destroy that belief we hold. Why? Why do you feel it impossible for Christ to have suffered in the Garden? Do you have scriptural reference that would preclude Jesus from taking upon himself any part of the Atonement in the Garden?

[lattelady]

I believe what I believe based on a wealth of scripture. I asked you (you meaning LDS people in general) what scripture you base your belief on. You gave me one; one that you apply a meaning to that is not in harmony with the rest of scripture in your own canon. That would be the definition of intellectual dishonesty. Yes, I'd like to know why you believe what you believe.

[pam]

No what you are doing is the out right attacking of the beliefs that we hold. You asked us to explain and it's been explained ad nauseum on this thread.

If you had said even once, okay I can kind of get what you are saying though I disagree, that would be one thing. But every single explanation given in an attempt to answer your question has been disputed. It is what we believe, whether you agree or not, that's up to you..but please don't attack and yes I say attack what we as LDS believe and have attempted to explain to you.

[lattelady]

John Doe,

I have nothing against the Garden of Gethsemane, other than the fact that it is a location where my Savior went through a great deal of torment. I would like to diminish it's importance to the story of the cross because scripture teaches that nothing should outshine the cross' significance. I don't feel that it is impossible for Christ to have suffered in the Garden. In fact, I know that He DID suffer there. Scripture teaches that He did.

Do I have a scriptural reference that would preclude Jesus from taking upon Himself any part of the Atonement in the Garden? What an interesting way to try and prove a point. No, I don't have a reference for that. Do you have a reference that would preclude heaven from being a real place? Do you have a reference that would preclude spirit children from having existed?

[Maxel]

I believe what I believe based on a wealth of scripture. I asked you (you meaning LDS people in general) what scripture you base your belief on. You gave me one; one that you apply a meaning to that is not in harmony with the rest of scripture in your own canon. That would be the definition of intellectual dishonesty. Yes, I'd like to know why you believe what you believe.

Wait... So now you're an expert on the meaning and interpretation of the entire LDS canon? All this time I thought you were needing to be taught?

I admire your ability to learn and master the entire LDS canon in a day!

[pam]

I would like to diminish it's importance to the story of the cross

Awww so the agenda finally comes out.

[john doe]

I believe what I believe based on a wealth of scripture. I asked you (you meaning LDS people in general) what scripture you base your belief on. You gave me one; one that you apply a meaning to that is not in harmony with the rest of scripture in your own canon. That would be the definition of intellectual dishonesty. Yes, I'd like to know why you believe what you believe.

Well, since we are so obviously wrong, it wouldn't hurt for you to show us the references, would it? This is your official call for scriptural references that prove that the LDS belief that part of the Atonement occurred in the Garden of Gethsemane is false. You're calling us liars, now is your chance to prove it.

[Maxel]

In fact, I know that He DID suffer there. Scripture teaches that He did.

Wait... You say he suffered there- we say he suffered there. Yet we're wrong and you're right, because you're able to carefully parse out the difference between Christ's anticipation of agony (in which he bled from every pore; bled severely without external provocation) and the agony itself (where he was crucified; bled severly with external provocation). You do this through explaining to us what the ancient prophets and apostles really meant, but say that modern prophets and apostles can't do the same thing.

Am I the only one who doesn't follow your logic?

[lattelady]

Pam, that wasn't the "agenda", but after 81 posts, I can say with passion that the cross is dear to me, and the work that my Savior did on the cross was my salvation. It's okay that you don't agree with me. It's okay that I don't agree with you. We can agree to disagree and still be kind to one another.

[Vanhin]

lattelady,

What do you think caused Christ to suffer in Gethsemane, so that He bled from his pores?

Regards,

Vanhin

[lattelady]

John Doe, I've already posted a multiplicity of scriptures that talk about the cross and Christ's death upon it for our sins.

[lattelady]

Vanhin,

I'm pretty sure that the anticipation of the cruelest death known to man, at that time, could cause INTENSE suffering. He knew that what was coming was being nailed to a cross and propped up, only to be forsaken by God, and then slowly suffocating, stabbed in the side, and dying. That kind of anticipation would cause me to suffer greatly. I can't even pretend to know the depth of His suffering.

[john doe]

Lattelady, that's not what I asked for. You called LDS liars. Scripturally prove that the Garden of Gethsemane had nothing to do with the Atonement as you assert.

[pam]

Pam, that wasn't the "agenda", but after 81 posts, I can say with passion that the cross is dear to me, and the work that my Savior did on the cross was my salvation. It's okay that you don't agree with me. It's okay that I don't agree with you. We can agree to disagree and still be kind to one another.

And I'm not trying to take that away from you. My beef is, you asked a question, we have attempted to answer it, yet you dispute everything we say and in return throw back the intellectual dishonesty comment. It is what we believe...end of story. You don't have to agree with it..but end of story.

You are not being kind in coming to an LDS site, asking our belief system and basically telling us that is not how it's interpreted and therefore we are wrong. Because that is what you are doing whether you realize it or not.

[Pegasus]

You are "pretty sure" that anticipating the cruelest death known to man would make him bleed from every pore? Hmm...That's a stretch latte lady. I really doubt that he bled from every pore not because he was in pain, but because he was thinking about what would happen.

More importantly though, who paid for his dry cleaning? His clothes would have been literally saturated in blood.

[beefche]

Good grief, people.

LDS believe that the Atonement of Jesus Christ included the suffering at the Garden as well as the actual physical death of the cross and the resurrection of Jesus. I suppose the technical aspects are these 3 parts. However, LDS also believe that Jesus was fore-ordained to be our Savior in the pre-mortal world. So, you could say His whole life was one of the Atonement.

The problem, latte, is that you will not find the very first statement ever by a prophet on this. We have the Book of Mormon, D&C and Pearl of Great Price in addition to the Bible as scriptures. Doctrine is taught from those books. This doctrine is taught in our instruction manuals (you can look in Preach My Gospel and Gospel Essentials as a start). To try to find the first time it was taught will be impossible (IMO).

You believe that the Garden was only significant that Jesus suffered in anticipation of the cross. Your belief is based on your knowledge, understanding, and testimony of the Bible.

Our belief is based on our knowledge, understanding, and testimony of all the scriptures we use.

Can we just let it go? Accept our differences and accept that we all have faith that Jesus is our Savior and He did Atone for each of our sins.

[Flyonthewall]

It certainly could also be a logical inference that Jesus, when He spoke of "suffering", was referring to the suffering of the cross that He was about to endure. The coming suffering upon the cross caused Him to tremble and "bleed at every pore." He was saying that He was enduring the suffering of the cross (that would affect him body and spirit) so that we would never have to taste eternal death. But if we would not repent, we would have to experience death.

Well, I suppose you could say that Jesus was merely looking ahead to the cross, but that is a stretch. It would be like saying that He had an anxiety attack in the Garden.

No. Fortunately, we have scriptures and prophets that state explicity that the price for sin was paid, for the most part, in the garden. The suffering and agony in the garden was not caused by worrying about a future event, but was caused by a current process.

Matthew 26

Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.

37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.

38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Mark 14

32 And they came to a place which was named Gethsemane: and he saith to his disciples, Sit ye here, while I shall pray.

33 And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy;

34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.

35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.

36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

Luke 22

39 ¶ And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him.

40 And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation.

41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone’s cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,

42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground

[Pegasus]

The issue seems pretty clear-cut to me. Lattelady is not interested in learning anything. She is here to argue and that's it.

3 Nephi 11:29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of acontention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

Why are you here again Lattelady?

[beefche]

The LDS beliefs have been explained fully. Thread is closed.