What Do Lds Apostles Have That We Don't?

[Guest ApostleKnight]

I've had this discussion with many friends/family members. I'm always interested by what people think in regards to this, and why. I personally believe the apostles have seen Christ, whether in a sleeping vision so popular with Lehi, or in a waking vision. I believe that they are called to be special witnesses of his resurrection, meaning they have seen him in whatever way the Lord wills them to see him. This is a very controversial subject I've found, so if you disagree do so politely. If you agree do so politely. And please explain why you feel the way you do, if you have time. Regardless, I too know that Christ is alive. And Christ is coming. :)

p.s. This is obviously a poll for LDS members. I'd like to hear what people think and why, not get bogged down debating whether the church is true or whether the LDS church has apostles. Please start a new thread if you wish to discuss anything like that. Thanks.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight@Oct 25 2005, 06:53 PM

I've had this discussion with many friends/family members. I'm always interested by what people think in regards to this, and why. I personally believe the apostles have seen Christ, whether in a sleeping vision so popular with Lehi, or in a waking vision. I believe that they are called to be special witnesses of his resurrection, meaning they have seen him in whatever way the Lord wills them to see him. This is a very controversial subject I've found, so if you disagree do so politely. If you agree do so politely. And please explain why you feel the way you do, if you have time. Regardless, I too know that Christ is alive. And Christ is coming. :)

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Well answered in a waking dream... though I didn't agree with the tail end of your question... we can and do have the same witness.... at least I do...

So does my husband...

Also... I believe it isn't just a one time thing... but an on going thing... as needed...

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Please@Oct 25 2005, 07:56 PM

Well answered in a walking dream... though I didn't agree with the tail end of your question...  we can and do have the same witness.... at least I do...

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You disagree with my including Acts 1:21-22? I'm confused. Thanks for responding, and I agree with what you said...about it not being a one-time thing. And I did not mean to imply that only apostles can have that first-hand witness...of course the Lord can show himself to whoever he wants...I'm just interested in whether people think the apostles need to have seen him to fill the apostolic role.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight+Oct 25 2005, 07:04 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Please@Oct 25 2005, 07:56 PM

Well answered in a walking dream... though I didn't agree with the tail end of your question...  we can and do have the same witness.... at least I do...

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You disagree with my including Acts 1:21-22? I'm confused. Thanks for responding, and I agree with what you said...about it not being a one-time thing. And I did not mean to imply that only apostles can have that first-hand witness...of course the Lord can show himself to whoever he wants...I'm just interested in whether people think the apostles need to have seen him to fill the apostolic role.

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No.. I do not disagree with your including Acts 1:21-22.. I didn't see the reference...

I might include a reference of my own..

Mosiah 18: 9

9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—

[Guest ToasterOfen]

I voted that they have a "waking vision", although I do not believe that an apostle has to see Him to fulfill this call. I do believe that all of them will see Him, at some point during their apostleship, many times in fact. So, have Bednar and Updorf (sp?) seen them yet? Maybe, maybe not yet. But I don't really think it matters...they will. Besides that, it was a call from the Lord, and they have already been given the blessings of "prophet, seer and revelator", so regardless of if they have seen him, they do have something we don't...the call to be such.

[Traveler]

When I was attending college I had a friend that was 100% blind and had never seen a thing with their physical eyes. I learned from my friend that there were however, many things she could see that I could not.

It is my impression that to measure an apostle by what they see with their eyes is a mistake, for they see of Christ and witness of Christ things that cannot be seen with physical eyes and will never be know - except by that which is spiritual.

The Traveler

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Traveler@Oct 25 2005, 09:45 PM

It is my impression that to measure an apostle by what they see with their eyes is a mistake, for they see of Christ and witness of Christ things that cannot be seen with physical eyes and will never be know - except by that which is spiritual.

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That is why I included sleeping vision (dream) as Lehi had many times. Surely that's not using our physical eyes, yet if I tell you to close your eyes and picture a zebra, you "see" a black-and-white striped horse in your "mind's eye." That's my point, there are many ways the Lord manifests himself to his servants. Thanks for the input.

[Snow]

I am opinionless.

What do they themselves say? All else is fluff.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Snow@Oct 26 2005, 12:38 AM

What do they themselves say? All else is fluff.

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That's where the controversy kicks in. When I watch the Special Witnesses of Christ DVD I believe they're saying between the lines "I'm a special witness of Christ because I've seen my resurrected Lord." I'm confident the prophet has/does converse with the Lord regularly...face to face.

When I was being trained as a veil worker in the Seattle Temple the temple worker showing us around stopped at a door on the 4th floor and said, "This is the door to the fifth floor. No one ever goes there except mechanics and engineers to fix stuff." After a thoughtful pause, he added calmly, "Oh, and the prophet goes there too...he's got a room set aside for him." Holy of Holies perhaps? :)

[shanstress70]

I'm not sure about apostles, but you wouldn't think they would have seen Christ face to face if Hinckley himself hasn't. From the Larry King interview, I got that impression - that he doesn't actually talk with God, but he just gets 'impressions' from Him.

[Serg]

Well, if you would try to think about it this way...

We all are going to have the SAME witness as the very Prophet someday, the secure election for exaltation provides for ALL members the oportunity to SEE God even as HE IS. So the apostles have nothing that we CANT have too. But they obviously already worked and continue working for it.

Yes i believe they have seen HIM, whether a dream or face to face.

Best regards,

[Ray]

I know the members of the First Presidency and Quorum of Twelve Apostles know that Jesus Christ lives, but I don't know if they came to know that in some way other than the way most of us come or came to know that.

I think the main difference between us and the members of the First Presidency and Quorum of Twelve Apostles is in authority, or the authority our Lord has given them to preside over us [the other members of the Church]. They are also authorized to declare the gospel to the entire world, whereas the rest of us are not.

And btw, I consider what I say when sharing the gospel with others as "warning my neighbors", and I try to focus only on the principles of Faith and Repentance because, to my understanding, that is really all our Lord wants us to talk about. Or in other words, neither my Lord nor any of His authorized servants have given me the authority to declare the gospel to anyone on this website, nor to anyone else in the world... and none of you are authorized either, to my understanding.

[Serg]

I agree with you Ray.

But its interesting to see that they were called to be "literal witnesses" of the Lord.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Serg@Oct 26 2005, 11:11 AM

I agree with you Ray.

      But its interesting to see that they were called to be "literal witnesses" of the Lord.

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And they really, or literally, are.

[Snow]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight+Oct 25 2005, 11:43 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Snow@Oct 26 2005, 12:38 AM

What do they themselves say? All else is fluff.

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That's where the controversy kicks in. When I watch the Special Witnesses of Christ DVD I believe they're saying between the lines "I'm a special witness of Christ because I've seen my resurrected Lord." I'm confident the prophet has/does converse with the Lord regularly...face to face.

When I was being trained as a veil worker in the Seattle Temple the temple worker showing us around stopped at a door on the 4th floor and said, "This is the door to the fifth floor. No one ever goes there except mechanics and engineers to fix stuff." After a thoughtful pause, he added calmly, "Oh, and the prophet goes there too...he's got a room set aside for him." Holy of Holies perhaps? :)

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I wouldn't bank on it.

Apostles have been excommunicated for apostacy or left the Church due to disbelief. I understand that Laman and Lem were hard headed but most of us would tend to have a bit stronger testimony if we visited personally with the Savior.

I am thinking of J Reuben Clark. Michael Quinn wrote two books on him. Quinn said that Clark struggled with faith and testimony and finally as an intellectual deal just decided to believe - that is he made a conscious decision to be a believer - not because he was or had been spiritually converted, but because he just thought it the right thing to do.

[Serg]

We cant say that because men(apostles or prophets) get out of the Church, they must have NOT seen God. For the very scriptures say that THAT is not the case. As you said, the brothers of Nephi not only had angels come to them but HEARD the Lord. Cowdery SAW Jesus in Kirtland. And others, and yet they left. McConckie has said that the prophets HAVE been sealed to exaltation, and that means that they somehow HAVE seen the Lord. That may include the apostles, and what do u know? ALL of us who want so and work for it!

Jesus lives, men have seen Him and gave us testimony. A lot of us have seen Him, not in a literal way, but sufficent to believe THOSE who HAVE(through the Spirit of the very Lord in us).

Best regards,

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Serg@Oct 27 2005, 11:26 AM

Jesus lives, men have seen Him and gave us testimony.

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I think it's interesting that when filling the apostleship left by Judas, Peter lays down some requirements for the incoming apostle. See Acts 1:21-22 as here:

"21) Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

22) Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection."

Seems the new apostle had to have seen Jesus after his resurrection, "unto that same day that he was taken up from us," as Peter says. This seems in line with being a "special" witness of Christ. Notice the special witness the apostles received in Luke 24:38-39.

Elder Boyd K. Packer said the following, and it is comments like these that are indicative to me that the apostleship and it's special witness haven't changed since Jesus' day:

"We are eternally grateful for the witness of Joseph Smith, 'who was called of God, and ordained an apostle of Jesus Christ.' (D&C 20:2.) In fulfilling his apostolic calling, Joseph Smith bore this powerful witness: 'And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

'For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father.' (D&C 76:22-23.)

The Prophet’s witness, born of experience and of the Spirit [emphasis mine], has been proclaimed throughout the world, and the Holy Ghost has confirmed the truthfulness of that witness in the hearts of millions who have received the word with gladness. The pattern for proving spiritual things has been reestablished in our day. And an unbroken chain of succession has ensured that the apostolic calling has been with us continually since it was restored to Joseph Smith.

There are limits to what the Spirit permits us to say. And so I close with my witness, my special witness, that Jesus is the Christ. (Ensign November 1996)

In this same article, Elder Packer quotes Elder Howard W. Hunter as saying:

"The resurrected Lord has continued his ministry of salvation by appearing, from time to time, to mortal men chosen by God to be his witnesses, and by revealing his will through the Holy Ghost. (Ensign January 1984)

Pres. Hinckley, in the video "Special Witnesses of Christ," says:

"Those who were witnesses of that event, all who saw and heard and spoke with the Risen Lord, testified of the reality of [his resurrection]. His followers through the centuries lived and died in proclamation of the truth of this supernal act. To all of these we add our testimony that He who died on Calvary’s cross arose again in wondrous splendor as the Son of God, the Master of life and death."

Interestingly, Oliver Cowdery's charge to the original twelve apostles as recorded in the History of the Church, Volume 2, pp. 192-198, contains some specific and clarifying language:

"You will have the same difficulties to encounter in fulfilling this ministry, that the ancient Apostle had. You have enlisted in a cause that requires your whole attention; you ought, therefore, to count the cost…It will require a series of years to accomplish it; but you will have this pleasing consolation, that your heavenly Father requires it; the field is His; the work is His; and He will not only cheer you, animate you, and buoy you up in your pilgrimage, in your arduous toils; but when your work is done, and your labor over, He will take you unto Himself…The ancients passed through the same experience. They had this testimony—that they had seen the Savior after He rose from the dead. You must bear the same testimony; or your mission, your labor, your toil, will be in vain." (Apostolic charge given by Oliver Cowdery to Parley P. Pratt: History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 192-193)

"…it is necessary that you receive a testimony from heaven for yourselves; so that you can bear testimony to the truth of the Book of Mormon, and that you have seen the face of God. That is more than the testimony of an angel. When the proper time arrives, you shall be able to bear this testimony to the world. When you bear testimony that you have seen God, this testimony God will never suffer to fall, but will bear you out; although many will not give heed, yet others will. You will therefore see the necessity of getting this testimony from heaven. Never cease striving until you have seen God face to face. Strengthen your faith; cast off your doubts, your sins and all your unbelief; and nothing can prevent you from coming to God. Your ordination is not full and complete till God has laid His hand upon you. We require as much to qualify us as did those who have gone before us; [emphasis mine] God is the same. If the Savior in former days laid His hands upon His disciples, why not in latter days?...You have our best wishes, you have our most fervent prayers, that you may be able to bear this testimony, that you have seen the face of God. Therefore call upon Him in faith in mighty prayer till you prevail, for it is your duty and your privilege to bear such testimony for yourselves.” (General Charge given by Oliver Cowdery to the Twelve: History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 194-198)

Ray's point aside, that apostles have a mantle/authority we don't (because that's a given), I'm more interested in discussing if people think specifically that the qualifications for apostleship have changed from Acts 1:21-22, and if so, when and why?

[Ray]

I think it might be helpful to re-read the text in Acts 1:21-22 -

21) Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

22) Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection."

Notice that it was from among “these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection."

Or to put those words in the past tense, instead of the present from which they were spoken, it was from among “those men which had companied with [them] all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among [them], beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from [them], must one be ordained to be a witness with [them] of his resurrection."

Now, today, it is obviously impossible to choose apostles from among “those men which had companied with [those people] all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among [those people], beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from [them]… or at least if we did, it would be from among men who are now dead [to this world]… so obviously there must be some other way to choose and ordain men from among those who are now living to fill the office of an apostle today.

And to get you thinking a little more along those lines, it might also be helpful to realize that the instructions recorded in Acts 1:21-22 were given by the apostle Peter, as he spoke to the other apostles about the men they were to choose from among, and if Peter had the authority to instruct the other apostles about how they were to choose other apostles, then other people who have the authority that Peter had also have the authority to instruct other apostles about how they should choose other apostles.

Or in other words, the keys are among us, brethren, and we don't need the Lord to personally approve of every decision He has already given someone the authority to make.

And btw, I’m not saying that it is impossible for people living today or in this dispensation to actually see or have seen our risen Lord. I’m just saying that a person can actually know that Jesus lives in some way other than to see Him in any way visually.

[Serg]

That is a wise answer Ray and ApostleKnight.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 28 2005, 01:15 PM

I’m just saying that a person can actually know that Jesus lives in some way other than to see Him in any way visually.

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Ray, that wasn't my question or assertion. My question was did anyone think the apostolic calling and qualifications thereof had changed since Peter's day. Of course I know Christ lives by the Spirit. Of course the apostles do too.

For me, "special witness" doesn't mean just having someone with apostolic priesthood keys giving their witness. If so, then bishops are "special witnesses" and anyone with a priesthood calling has a more "special witness" than someone without priesthood keys.

The point in quoting Acts 1:21-22 wasn't to say the exact situation was the same, i.e. having people among us who lived when Christ lived and I think you know that Ray. My point was that they were to be "special witnesses of his resurrection." If their special witness is just having an extra dose of the Spirit tell them Christ lives and was resurrected, that's not so special to me, in the context of apostles. Now someone who's had the spiritual witness and the physical witness (meaning seeing and not just feeling) to me has a "special witness."

I notice you didn't address the quotes I listed Ray. For example the charge given to the first apostles of this dispensation, et al. It amazes me that people are so opposed to the fact that the apostles could have seen Christ as part of their calling. As if miracles have ceased or the Lord can't show himself to his special witnesses anymore.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Ray, that wasn't my question or assertion. My question was did anyone think the apostolic calling and qualifications thereof had changed since Peter's day.

NO. Though Christ does work with each and everyone on an individual basis... like with Thomas...

D&C 46: 13-14

13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.

14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

[Ray]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight+Oct 28 2005, 05:44 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 28 2005, 01:15 PM

I’m just saying that a person can actually know that Jesus lives in some way other than to see Him in any way visually.

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Ray, that wasn't my question or assertion. My question was did anyone think the apostolic calling and qualifications thereof had changed since Peter's day. Of course I know Christ lives by the Spirit. Of course the apostles do too.

For me, "special witness" doesn't mean just having someone with apostolic priesthood keys giving their witness. If so, then bishops are "special witnesses" and anyone with a priesthood calling has a more "special witness" than someone without priesthood keys.

The point in quoting Acts 1:21-22 wasn't to say the exact situation was the same, i.e. having people among us who lived when Christ lived and I think you know that Ray. My point was that they were to be "special witnesses of his resurrection." If their special witness is just having an extra dose of the Spirit tell them Christ lives and was resurrected, that's not so special to me, in the context of apostles. Now someone who's had the spiritual witness and the physical witness (meaning seeing and not just feeling) to me has a "special witness."

I notice you didn't address the quotes I listed Ray. For example the charge given to the first apostles of this dispensation, et al. It amazes me that people are so opposed to the fact that the apostles could have seen Christ as part of their calling. As if miracles have ceased or the Lord can't show himself to his special witnesses anymore.

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FYI, I’m not “opposed” to the idea that the apostles now living “could have” seen Christ as part of their calling. I just don’t see it as a necessary element in their being able to give their “special witness” to all of the world.

And btw, if their witness could only be “special” by their actually having seen our risen Lord visually, I’d be surprised by the fact that I haven’t seen them bear witness that they have actually seen Him visually, considering how long I have been watching and listening to them.

And btw, it seems that you're focusing on what the apostles have received more than what we have received and can continue to receive from them.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 31 2005, 01:39 PM

And btw, if their witness could only be “special” by their actually having seen our risen Lord visually, I’d be surprised by the fact that I haven’t seen them bear witness that they have actually seen Him visually, considering how long I have been watching and listening to them.

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You honestly expect them to step up to the pulpit in General Conference, and share what was most probably a very personal experience for them with anyone caring to listen? I don't. As one of the quotes I listed above says (Elder Packer to be precise), "There are limits to what the Spirit permits us to say." Joseph Smith's many manifestations are rightly focused on as he was the prophet of the restoration. But to expect the apostles to tell everyone when, where and how the Savior visited them (if he has) is to me a little absurd.

There are experiences too sacred to discuss, and as you said, touting a physical manifestation might lead to sensationalism in the membership of the church instead of focusing on the spiritual witness. But the spiritual witness by no means has to be the only witness.

And btw, it seems that you're focusing on what the apostles have received more than what we have received and can continue to receive from them.

That has been my declared purpose in this thread from the beginning Ray. If I had said, "My life's goal is to prove that the apostles have seen Christ," then I'd expect others to be concerned. However, as I've simply opened a discussion into one facet of what I consider the apostolic calling, I see no reason to be troubled by the subject matter. And I don't expect anyone to believe as I do, I simply think there is considerable evidence pointing to the fact that part of an apostle's special witness of Christ's resurrected reality is seeing him in a waking or sleeping vision.

[BenRaines]

ApostleKnight,

I agree with you that in order to be a special witness the Apostles have received a special witness of Jesus Christ. I also agree that it would be useless for them to testify that they had seen Christ and what would it do. Would it make those that are on the fence believe? I think not.

I believe that they do see in order to be a special witness. I don't know that but I believe it.

[Ray]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight+Oct 31 2005, 10:09 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 31 2005, 01:39 PM

And btw, if their witness could only be “special” by their actually having seen our risen Lord visually, I’d be surprised by the fact that I haven’t seen them bear witness that they have actually seen Him visually, considering how long I have been watching and listening to them.

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You honestly expect them to step up to the pulpit in General Conference, and share what was most probably a very personal experience for them with anyone caring to listen? I don't. As one of the quotes I listed above says (Elder Packer to be precise), "There are limits to what the Spirit permits us to say." Joseph Smith's many manifestations are rightly focused on as he was the prophet of the restoration. But to expect the apostles to tell everyone when, where and how the Savior visited them (if he has) is to me a little absurd.

I don’t expect that. A simple declaration that “all men who serve as an apostle have already physically seen our risen Lord” would suffice for me, with no details necessary. And as I have said, I have never ‘seen’ or ‘heard’ or ‘read anything from’ an apostle who has made that statement.

Originally posted by ApostleKnight+Oct 31 2005, 10:09 PM-->

There are experiences too sacred to discuss, and as you said, touting a physical manifestation might lead to sensationalism in the membership of the church instead of focusing on the spiritual witness. But the spiritual witness by no means has to be the only witness.

I never said the spiritual witness “has to be” the only witness. I am saying that a “physical” witness isn’t even necessary, not even for an apostle, and not even for what makes an apostle a “special” witness. I am trying to show you that I believe their witness is special enough, simply by virtue of their authority and what it took for them to be called into their positions.

Originally posted by ApostleKnight@Oct 31 2005, 10:09 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 31 2005, 01:39 PM

And btw, it seems that you're focusing on what the apostles have received more than what we have received and can continue to receive from them.

That has been my declared purpose in this thread from the beginning Ray. If I had said, "My life's goal is to prove that the apostles have seen Christ," then I'd expect others to be concerned. However, as I've simply opened a discussion into one facet of what I consider the apostolic calling, I see no reason to be troubled by the subject matter. And I don't expect anyone to believe as I do, I simply think there is considerable evidence pointing to the fact that part of an apostle's special witness of Christ's resurrected reality is seeing him in a waking or sleeping vision.

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I know what you have been saying, and as I have been saying, I don’t see what you are saying to be an established “fact”, in that I do not believe a “physical” witness is a “necessary” element in what makes an apostle a special witness to all of the world. Possible, Yes., but necessary, No.

And btw, I’m not trying to convince you of the truth in this matter, and I don’t feel I am responsible for that. I am merely sharing what I see as the truth as far as I know it.

p.s. I recently bought a book called "Discourses of President Gordon B. Hinckley, Volume 1: 1995-1999", and I was particularly fascinated when reading how he described what happened when he was chosen and ordained as the next Prophet of the Church. And you know what? It seems to me that it wasn't necessary for our Lord to make a personal appearance on that occasion either.