LDS as a Christian Denomination

[Moksha]

Should we have a problem or take issue when someone calls the LDS Church a Christian denomination or sect?

I like this designation and yet I see the potential for some to disagree, saying that it does not address our specialness or separateness.

What do you say?

[Vanhin]

I say nay, from our perspective. When Christ originally organized his Church, there were no denominations or sects. Denominations and sects exist today because of apostasy. Since The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints claims to be a restoration of the original Church of Jesus Christ, we would not be a sect, by my reckoning. :) Now, I think The Community of Christ (RLDS) and FLDS, and other offshoots are sects/Denominations, just like the rest of Christianity.

Of course, to the non-Christian or even non-LDS, we would appear to be just another denomination of Christianity if even that.

Regards,

Vanhin

[prisonchaplain]

The very first word of your official name denies the sect/denomination category. Your church claims to be THE church. Compare this with Jehovah's Witnesses. They say their Governing Body is "the faithful and wise servant." They call themselves Witnesses, and decry the Protestant and Catholic churches (and presumbably yours) as "Christendom."

NO, I give sociologists credit on this one. Yours is a new religious movement. We can argue over whether it can be called Christian or not, but it is not Protestant or Catholic or Orthodox.

As the kids like to say, your church simply "Is what it is." :-)

[Moksha]

As the kids like to say, your church simply "Is what it is." :-)

Someone even suggested that we are a Fourth Abrahamic tradition, and yet so much of LDS Church is based what has come before in the Christian tradition.

From an Evangelical sense we do not meet a strict check off list, but neither would the followers of Christ in the very first century AD.

Seems like we have two forces going on to separate us from a Christian denomination status:

1. Our will to peculiarity

2. Our exclusion due to said peculiarity

No doubt there are other arguments as well.

:)

[Guest mormonmusic]

I'm of a different view on this one. Although I believe in our unique roots, as well as the unique aspects of our doctrine, it wouldn't bother me if people refer to us as another denomination or sect within Christianity. And this in my view, if only to counteract the false notion we aren't Christian.

However, I recognize this is partly due to the regrettable and deep anti-Mormon influences on my family, and my mission to an area of the world which was home to many groups that showed hard-core misrepresentation of our beliefs -- an attempt to marginalize us to anyone who wants to be a Christian and considers the LDS church as an option.

When someone lumps me in with the other mainstream churches by considering us a denomination within Christianity, I'm relieved.

From a theological or philosophical standpoint, I think we share enough in common with the rest of the Christian world that I also don't object to being considered a denomination within Christianity.

Edited December 2, 2009 by mormonmusic

[bmy-]

Theologically.. we're an entirely different animal. It's a fine balance.. between preserving uniqueness and maintaining enough social appeal to be an attractive church.

[SolaFide]

Hey, guys. So I am a Christian, a Reformed Baptist if we want to be specific, and it seems to me that Mormonism should be classified as a different religion thatn Christianity. I certainly do not say that to be rude or disrespectful; it just seems to me that Mormonism has certain aspects to it that conflict with some of the historic foundational issues of Christianity. So, I was wondering: would you guys explain from your prespective what it means to be a Mormon? Again, I am in no way trying to be disrespectful. I just want to have honest dialouge so that hopefully we can understand each other better.

[bmy-]

Hey, guys. So I am a Christian, a Reformed Baptist if we want to be specific, and it seems to me that Mormonism should be classified as a different religion thatn Christianity. I certainly do not say that to be rude or disrespectful; it just seems to me that Mormonism has certain aspects to it that conflict with some of the historic foundational issues of Christianity. So, I was wondering: would you guys explain from your prespective what it means to be a Mormon? Again, I am in no way trying to be disrespectful. I just want to have honest dialouge so that hopefully we can understand each other better.

You're right, it's definitely a different animal entirely. This mainly stems from the idea that LDS theology is henotheistic, or that we recognize the existence (or possible existence) of a potentially infinite number of Gods, yet we follow only Our God.

Also, the idea that men may become gods is another sticking point for most.

[SolaFide]

You're right, it's definitely a different animal entirely. This mainly stems from the idea that LDS theology is henotheistic, or that we recognize the existence (or possible existence) of a potentially infinite number of Gods, yet we follow only Our God.

Also, the idea that men may become gods is another sticking point for most.

Right. So are you saying that you agree with me that Mormonism is different then Christianity? Or, would you at least say that Mormonism is different from what I would classify as historic, orthodox Christianity? (One God in all existence, This God existing as one being and three persons, justification by faith alone, etc.)

[Guest mormonmusic]

Naturally, we differ on whether God is One Being -- we think God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are 3 separate Beings. But does this nullify the core and in my view, defining belief that Christ was the Savior of the World, and that we try to follow his teachings, his life and his example? And that we are Christians? Definitely not.

We're normal, average people, trying to do our best to follow the teachings of Christ through service to others, reptentence of our sins, sacrifice of our time and talents to bless the lives of others etcetera. And that's enough to qualify our Church squarely in the camp of Christianity.

[Vanhin]

Right. So are you saying that you agree with me that Mormonism is different then Christianity? Or, would you at least say that Mormonism is different from what I would classify as historic, orthodox Christianity? (One God in all existence, This God existing as one being and three persons, justification by faith alone, etc.)

He's saying that we are different than all others Christians.

Since we consider ourselves to be not only Christians, but the original Christian Church restored, it would be incorrect to say we are different than Christianity. That would be nonsensical.

At the same time I disagree with him slightly. I think monotheism best describes our religion.

Regards,

Vanhin

[SolaFide]

I know that Mormons are sincere people who work hard to follow God. I do not deny that. But my question is are we so far away in our beliefs that we must be classified in different camps? And I honestly, with no ill will intedned, believe that we are. The most foundational belief of any religion is whether it is Monotheist, Pantheistic, Polythiestic, etc. And historical, orthodox Christians and Mormons differ on this key issue. Historical, orthodox Christians are firmly Monotheistic. But Mormons are Polytheistic, or at least Henotheistic. We differ on how many beings of God there are. That is the most basic question. Yes, we do both believe in Jesus, but they are different Jesus'. My Jesus has been the one God from all eternity. The Mormon Jesus was begotten by His Heavenly Father at some point in the past and progressed to Godhood. Those are very different Jesus'. I do not say that out of meaness or disrespect. I simply feel it is strong enough to push Mormons outside the bouns of Christianity.

[Vanhin]

I know that Mormons are sincere people who work hard to follow God. I do not deny that. But my question is are we so far away in our beliefs that we must be classified in different camps? And I honestly, with no ill will intedned, believe that we are. The most foundational belief of any religion is whether it is Monotheist, Pantheistic, Polythiestic, etc. And historical, orthodox Christians and Mormons differ on this key issue. Historical, orthodox Christians are firmly Monotheistic. But Mormons are Polytheistic, or at least Henotheistic. We differ on how many beings of God there are. That is the most basic question. Yes, we do both believe in Jesus, but they are different Jesus'. My Jesus has been the one God from all eternity. The Mormon Jesus was begotten by His Heavenly Father at some point in the past and progressed to Godhood. Those are very different Jesus'. I do not say that out of meaness or disrespect. I simply feel it is strong enough to push Mormons outside the bouns of Christianity.

You are somewhat mistaken on your understanding Mormon doctrine. Jesus Christ is Jehovah in Mormonism, and was always God - before, during, and after His mortal ministry. According to our scriptures, under the direction of the Father, all things in heaven and earth, and in short, the whole Universe, was created by Christ, who is himself the Lord of the Universe.

You may believe in Jesus of Nazareth differently that we do, but that does not make him a different Jesus. We believe in Jesus of Nazareth, and we believe him when he says that He is the Son of God. I think it's far easier to establish the Mormon concept of Godhead, from the Bible, than creedal Trinity - yet I consider you a Christian because you are trying to follow his teachings. You might be in error about his character and his relationship with the Father, but that does not make him a different Jesus.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Guest mormonmusic]

Solafide -- no one can prove objectively whether Christ is a separate Being, or progressed to Godhood, or follows the definition of the Trinity historical Christianity eventually accepted. So to put LDS people outside the circle of Christianity on the basis of this difference, appears to me to be a mere attempt to marginalize the LDS religion.

Plus it's non-scriptural -- the Bible tells us "by their fruits ye shall know them". Not "By their agreement with the Nicene Creed" ye shall know them. No where does the Bible say the latter.

And the number of times I've heard from non-LDS Christians "if it's not in the Bible, it's not doctrine" is astounding. That's why I'm always confused when people exclude LDS Christians from Christianity on the basis of the Nicene definition of the Trinity. To me, the Nicene creed is evidence of the failure of the Bible to answer the question about the true nature of God -- so why exclude Mormons from Christianity when even the Bible can't settle this issue to the satisfaction of the non-LDS world?

Given the fact that the progression-to-Godhood concept can't be proven objectively, I could just as easily label all non-Mormon religions as non-Christian, because their defintion of Christ is diffferent than ours --- using the same reasoning you're proposing. I could say Baptists aren't Christians, Methodists aren't Christians, and all other non-LDS religions are not Christians, because they don't believe in the Godhead. I'm sure that would offend many of these people, and they would reject my conclusion -- as I'm rejecting yours.

Or, I could pick ANY difference between LDS Christianity, and historical Christianity, and then use that to make up my own definition of what Christianity is, based on this significant difference --all with the aim of excluding the non-LDS religions from the circle of Christianity.

Personally, when I've heard the "you aren't a Christian" statement in my lifetime, it's come from people who've been exposed to anti-Mormon literature, much of which is couched in misrepresentations of what we believe. They may say "I think you're a good person, or you're sincere" so it doesn't sound personal, but then to conclude we can't take upon us the name of Christ as a result, never sits well with me. To many LDS people I know, it's offensive.

I don't know if you're familiar with a preacher named Bill Keller. He said he has a Christian website with over a million subscribers. He took a lot of heat during the Mitt Romney candidacy for saying "a vote for Mitt Romney is a vote for Satan" (as you're probably aware, Romney is LDS and ran for president). In an interview, Bill Keller said that he didn't want Romney to get any political presence because it will "legitimize Mormonism". (this is not an attempt to start a political discussion by the way, or to endorse Mormon candidates)

The "you're not a Christian" argument to me is a thinly-veiled attempt to exclude Mormonism from the mainstream, so there isn't membership loss from other non-LDS Christian churches, consistent with Bill Keller's comment. It's an attempt to put the LDS religion on the fringe so it won't be taken seriously. I believe that was its original intention, and Bill Keller has confirmed this.

And that's what I think whenever I hear this "Mormon's aren't Christian" conclusion.

Edited December 2, 2009 by mormonmusic

[spamlds]

What difference does it make in the end? If they say we're not a Christian denomination because of some historical or doctrinal exclusion, we know better. If they say we're a fourth Abrahamic religion, that's a dodge because of their unwillingness to accept us as truly Christian.

We have no desire to be accorded any status equal to apostate Christian churches, Their acceptance or rejection of us doesn't affect the truths of the restored gospel, the reality of Joseph Smith's vision, the veracity of the Book of Mormon, etc. The Holy Ghost bears witness of truth. Some will accept that witness, some will reject.

Either the First Vision occurred and everything that transpired from it is of God or it didn't happen and the rest is the product of a fraud. The truth is independent of sectarian opinions. If the First Vision occurred, the sectarian world is in error. If it didn't occur, then good luck trying to find a true Church amidst the confused, quarrelsome world of the sectarians. I came to the LDS church 30 years ago after having already made that search.

The only reason I can see where it might make a difference is that some Christians might feel reticent persecuting another Christian sect. To committed anti-Mormons, it won't make a difference. The same spirit that once abode in the hearts of those who burned the homes of the pioneers, torched the Nauvoo Temple, and drove the saints into the wilderness still exists. It is only the constraints of a liberal, democratic society that restrains them today.

[Vanhin]

True that, spamlds.

And welcome. Now start spamming some lds so you can be true to your alias! :)

Regards,

Vanhin

[annamaureen]

Although I believe in our unique roots, as well as the unique aspects of our doctrine, it wouldn't bother me if people refer to us as another denomination or sect within Christianity. And this in my view, if only to counteract the false notion we aren't Christian.

My thoughts exactly.

[SolaFide]

You are somewhat mistaken on your understanding Mormon doctrine. Jesus Christ is Jehovah in Mormonism, and was always God - before, during, and after His mortal ministry. According to our scriptures, under the direction of the Father, all things in heaven and earth, and in short, the whole Universe, was created by Christ, who is himself the Lord of the Universe.

You may believe in Jesus of Nazareth differently that we do, but that does not make him a different Jesus. We believe in Jesus of Nazareth, and we believe him when he says that He is the Son of God. I think it's far easier to establish the Mormon concept of Godhead, from the Bible, than creedal Trinity - yet I consider you a Christian because you are trying to follow his teachings. You might be in error about his character and his relationship with the Father, but that does not make him a different Jesus.

Regards,

Vanhin

With all due respect, you would be at odds with your own founders on this particular issue. Jesus was born as the first spirit child of Elohim, God the Father. He worked through eternal progression to become a god. And the early Mormon leaders would have no problem saying that they were different gods. I don't say that to be rude; it is just a part od history and I can give sources if you would like.

Believing in a different Jesus does make him a different Jesus. The people of the world religions believe different things about 'god' and we have no problem clarifying that they in fact believe in different gods. You attach your theological views of Jesus to the Jesus of history the same as I do. But ultimately you wind up with a Jesus that looks incredibly different than my own. A Jesus is has been God from all eternity and a Jesus who became a god are indeed different.

[SolaFide]

Solafide -- no one can prove objectively whether Christ is a separate Being, or progressed to Godhood, or follows the definition of the Trinity historical Christianity eventually accepted. So to put LDS people outside the circle of Christianity on the basis of this difference, appears to me to be a mere attempt to marginalize the LDS religion.

Why not? We have the Scriptures. God has revealed Himself to us. I understand that LDS folk believe that they have been corrupted over time, which is a separate issue in an ofitself that I would disagree with. But I think you can prove one poisiton over the other. Is one of them refuted by Scriture? I beilieve it is.I'm not trying to marginaliz anyone. I just want to explolre the truth and hold to it regardless of where that may put me.

Plus it's non-scriptural -- the Bible tells us "by their fruits ye shall know them". Not "By their agreement with the Nicene Creed" ye shall know them. No where does the Bible say the latter.

Yes, the Bible does tell us that believers will be known by their fruits. But one the things that Christians are told to possess throughout Scripture is sound doctrine. John 4:24 syas that the only way that we can worship God is in spirit and in truth. If we approach in error then we are not really worshipping the true God. The same applies to me as it does to you. I simply saying that we should discuss our views and test against Scripture.

And the number of times I've heard from non-LDS Christians "if it's not in the Bible, it's not doctrine" is astounding. That's why I'm always confused when people exclude LDS Christians from Christianity on the basis of the Nicene definition of the Trinity. To me, the Nicene creed is evidence of the failure of the Bible to answer the question about the true nature of God -- so why exclude Mormons from Christianity when even the Bible can't settle this issue to the satisfaction of the non-LDS world?

Let's look at Scripture and see. Maybe your right and my position is not supported and I will need to change. On the other hand, maybe my position is presented, in which case you would have to change your mind. But's lets look.

Given the fact that the progression-to-Godhood concept can't be proven objectively, I could just as easily label all non-Mormon religions as non-Christian, because their defintion of Christ is diffferent than ours --- using the same reasoning you're proposing. I could say Baptists aren't Christians, Methodists aren't Christians, and all other non-LDS religions are not Christians, because they don't believe in the Godhead. I'm sure that would offend many of these people, and they would reject my conclusion -- as I'm rejecting yours.

Actually, LDS have historically said that all non-Mormons aren't Christian. It does offend me but I understand it. LDS flounders recognized that we cannot hold to mutually exclusive essential doctrines and still both be Christians.

Or, I could pick ANY difference between LDS Christianity, and historical Christianity, and then use that to make up my own definition of what Christianity is, based on this significant difference --all with the aim of excluding the non-LDS religions from the circle of Christianity.

I am not simply picking things out of thin air. I am going off of Scriptural standards.

Personally, when I've heard the "you aren't a Christian" statement in my lifetime, it's come from people who've been exposed to anti-Mormon literature, much of which is couched in misrepresentations of what we believe. They may say "I think you're a good person, or you're sincere" so it doesn't sound personal, but then to conclude we can't take upon us the name of Christ as a result, never sits well with me. To many LDS people I know, it's offensive.

I understand that, and I do not wish to be offensive. I simply would like us to exaine the text of the Bible and see whether we can support our ideas from there or not.

I don't know if you're familiar with a preacher named Bill Keller. He said he has a Christian website with over a million subscribers. He took a lot of heat during the Mitt Romney candidacy for saying "a vote for Mitt Romney is a vote for Satan" (as you're probably aware, Romney is LDS and ran for president). In an interview, Bill Keller said that he didn't want Romney to get any political presence because it will "legitimize Mormonism". (this is not an attempt to start a political discussion by the way, or to endorse Mormon candidates)

I am familiar with both men.

The "you're not a Christian" argument to me is a thinly-veiled attempt to exclude Mormonism from the mainstream, so there isn't membership loss from other non-LDS Christian churches, consistent with Bill Keller's comment. It's an attempt to put the LDS religion on the fringe so it won't be taken seriously. I believe that was its original intention, and Bill Keller has confirmed this.

My beliefs do out of neccessity exclide you because they are so different. But yours exclude me as well. We do not believe the same things. I'm not saying these things so that you will be ignored. I want people to hear as many view points as they can. I believe that will only strengthen their view of truth. But, I just want us to recognize that we aren't in the same category of belief. Early Mormons are in agreement with me on this.

And that's what I think whenever I hear this "Mormon's aren't Christian" conclusion.

I do not want you to think that. I just want to discuss truth.

[SolaFide]

What difference does it make in the end? If they say we're not a Christian denomination because of some historical or doctrinal exclusion, we know better. If they say we're a fourth Abrahamic religion, that's a dodge because of their unwillingness to accept us as truly Christian.

I am not trying to simply dismiss you. I want to talk with as many LDS people as I can. I respect you enough to come here and engage you in open, honest dialouge.

We have no desire to be accorded any status equal to apostate Christian churches, Their acceptance or rejection of us doesn't affect the truths of the restored gospel, the reality of Joseph Smith's vision, the veracity of the Book of Mormon, etc. The Holy Ghost bears witness of truth. Some will accept that witness, some will reject.

Thank you very much. You have proved what I said in another post in that LDS belief and its members have historically excluded Christian churches from their fellowship because they contradict. Holy Spirit does bear truth and it points us to where God has revealed Himself: the Bible.

Either the First Vision occurred and everything that transpired from it is of God or it didn't happen and the rest is the product of a fraud. The truth is independent of sectarian opinions. If the First Vision occurred, the sectarian world is in error. If it didn't occur, then good luck trying to find a true Church amidst the confused, quarrelsome world of the sectarians. I came to the LDS church 30 years ago after having already made that search.

I totally agree with you. Your absolutely right. So can we compare our beliefs and see which is more consistent with Scripture?

The only reason I can see where it might make a difference is that some Christians might feel reticent persecuting another Christian sect. To committed anti-Mormons, it won't make a difference. The same spirit that once abode in the hearts of those who burned the homes of the pioneers, torched the Nauvoo Temple, and drove the saints into the wilderness still exists. It is only the constraints of a liberal, democratic society that restrains them today.

Wow. Hold on. That is not fare to myself or to the many other Christians who love LDS people and pour their hearts and souls into sharing the Gospel with them. Do I beleive that you are wrong? Yes, I certainly do. But I don't want to harm you in any way. I want you to avoid harm and come to the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Pleae, do not assume that I am coming in a spirit of anger or hatred because I most certainy am not.

[thekabalist]

And historical, orthodox Christians and Mormons differ on this key issue. Historical, orthodox Christians are firmly Monotheistic. But Mormons are Polytheistic, or at least Henotheistic.

Orthodox Christians are only strict Monotheists from the perspective of Orthodox Christianity. If you ask a Jew or a Muslim you are not strict Monotheists. It's pretty obvious that if you establish the label by your own standards only your group will fit in it. The idea of saying that you believe in 3 persons in 1 being whereas mormons believe in 3 beings and 1 mind and that makes you more monotheistic than them sounds very odd. You still have the "3" factor and thus cannot be called a strict Monotheist. That doesn't mean you or your belief are bad or evil. But it does look like double standards to this old Jew here.

b'shalom!

[prisonchaplain]

If they say we're a fourth Abrahamic religion, that's a dodge because of their unwillingness to accept us as truly Christian.

I've heard something similar to this. By analogy it was explained that Christianity is a branch off of Judaism, and then your church is a branch off Christianity. Consider the general Christian claim: Judaism apostasized by focusing on the Mosaic Law, and the protection of God's people, rather than the ultimate missional goal of bringing all souls to relationship with God. Similarly, your church argues that Protestants, Catholics and the Orthodox apostasized by forsaking key truths, and thus lost priesthood authority.

The parallels continue. Some Christians claim to be "Messianic Jews" or "Completed Jews." This enrages the Orthodox Jews. They've passed laws in Israel against such designations, and the consider any Christian efforts to evangelize them as "spiritual genocide." Likewise "historic Christians" are none too pleased by the LDS claims to be the original and restored Christian church.

So, in describing what is the same and what is different, is it wrong to say your church has certainly gone beyond traditional Christianity, become a "new religious movement" (as the socioligists say), but that it does aim to venerate the same Jesus Christians do? After all, we Christians claim that the Holy Trinity is the same God as the God of Dueteronomy 6:4.

As for who is okay with God, thankfully, that issue remains the ultimate pervue of the Almighty.

[prisonchaplain]

Orthodox Christians are only strict Monotheists from the perspective of Orthodox Christianity. If you ask a Jew or a Muslim you are not strict Monotheists. It's pretty obvious that if you establish the label by your own standards only your group will fit in it. The idea of saying that you believe in 3 persons in 1 being whereas mormons believe in 3 beings and 1 mind and that makes you more monotheistic than them sounds very odd. You still have the "3" factor and thus cannot be called a strict Monotheist. That doesn't mean you or your belief are bad or evil. But it does look like double standards to this old Jew here.

b'shalom!

True enough. By Jewish and Muslim standards, we are not monotheists. We say the three persons are one God, and that this oneness is "absolute." Yet when asked how it works, we come up with imperfect analogies, and utlimate say it is a divine mystery. The LDS God that is separate personages that is one in purpose, pushes the envelop even further. Some still say the religion is monotheist. Others are comfortable with henotheist. I've even seen a poster here openly embrace polytheism, saying his fellow LDS should not be ashamed of the ultimate meaning of the doctrine of Exaltation. I do think it's fair to say that the Holy Trinity is more monotheistic that the LDS Godhead. I doubt that impresses non-trinitarians much, however.

[Vanhin]

That's why I have always liked you prisonchaplain. You are reasonable.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[Maxel]

I'm not going to wade too far into the debate, but I have spent a long time thinking about this, and the classical definition of "henotheist" doesn't seem to fit the LDS religion to me- neither does "polytheism". Such classifications are often used in conjuncture with pagan religions embracing a pantheon of gods, often relatively equal in power and sometimes in opposition of one another. These descriptions don't fit the LDS viewpoint at all, as (according to official, canonized doctrine) we do not even recognize any gods other than the Father and, by extension of His mercy and grace, Christ and the Holy Ghost. Speculations about the existence of other gods (though well-founded they may be) similar in nature to our Father are just that: speculations.

Regarding the OP: To the fallen logic and viewpoint of the world, we are another Christian denomination ('sect'). I'm comfortable describing the Mormon religion as one. When asking about how things 'really are', however, Mormonism is the most true Christianity, being the restored religion that Christ's apostles established.