LDS as a Christian Denomination

[thekabalist]

True enough. By Jewish and Muslim standards, we are not monotheists. We say the three persons are one God, and that this oneness is "absolute." Yet when asked how it works, we come up with imperfect analogies, and utlimate say it is a divine mystery. The LDS God that is separate personages that is one in purpose, pushes the envelop even further. Some still say the religion is monotheist. Others are comfortable with henotheist. I've even seen a poster here openly embrace polytheism, saying his fellow LDS should not be ashamed of the ultimate meaning of the doctrine of Exaltation. I do think it's fair to say that the Holy Trinity is more monotheistic that the LDS Godhead. I doubt that impresses non-trinitarians much, however.

Prisonchaplain,

I really wish more Evangelicals were like you. The world would truly be a more loving and understanding place. I consider you to be a צדיק (tzaddik - a righteous one).

b'shalom

[Guest mormonmusic]

Solafide, you wrote:

"Why not? We have the Scriptures. God has revealed Himself to us. I understand that LDS folk believe that they have been corrupted over time, which is a separate issue in an ofitself that I would disagree with. But I think you can prove one poisiton over the other. Is one of them refuted by Scriture? I beilieve it is.I'm not trying to marginaliz anyone. I just want to explolre the truth and hold to it regardless of where that may put me."

My response: The problem with the scriptures is that they cannot be interpreted consistently. As this forum attests, you put a group of people with scriptures in the same room to discuss various truths, and they will arrive at vastly different conclusions. The scriptures, and in particular, the Bible, have been used to justify genocide (the Nazi's did this), war, sexual perversion, and lots of other positions that are simply not in harmony with each other. The scriptures alone, without inspiration, aren't sufficient to arrive at truth. That's why neither you are I can say definitively if the Nicene Creed or the Godhead concept is correct; this will only be evident when we have a perfect knowledge, and see for ourselves. The historical world at the time of Constantine was so divided on the nature of the Trinity/Godhead, they had to call a conference and get consensus on the issue, because the scriptures alone were not enough.

"Let's look at Scripture and see. Maybe your right and my position is not supported and I will need to change. On the other hand, maybe my position is presented, in which case you would have to change your mind. But's lets look."

--We won't agree. There is just as much scripture indicating that the 3 Beings we're discussing are separate entities, as there is scripture supporting the Nicene conception of the Trinity. As a full-time missionary, I went into the fruitless exercise of debating this topic solely on the basis of scripture, and never found anyone to agree if they've already made up their mind, as you have. I've sat across from an Anglican minister and discussed it, a group of Anglican Seminary students, a United Church of Canada minister, a youth pastor from a born-again Church, my father, and many others, and never has this led to agreement when people had already adopted a particular religious philosophy.

"Actually, LDS have historically said that all non-Mormons aren't Christian. It does offend me but I understand it. LDS flounders recognized that we cannot hold to mutually exclusive essential doctrines and still both be Christians."

Please cite a credible source. This isn't taught in our Church as doctrine. We suffer repeated attacks on our decision to take upon us the name of Christ, but don't attack other religions in our meetings. The teaching manuals and Sunday School manuals teach us to focus on furthering our own ministry, rather than trying to tear down the faith of other religions. I also don't believe that. You are a Christian, as if my non-member Father, and others, provided they believe in the divinity of Christ, his atonement, and try to live his teachings.

I personally consider you a Christian.

"mm:Or, I could pick ANY difference between LDS Christianity, and historical Christianity, and then use that to make up my own definition of what Christianity is, based on this significant difference --all with the aim of excluding the non-LDS religions from the circle of Christianity.

"S:I am not simply picking things out of thin air. I am going off of Scriptural standards."

As I said, the scriptures make an unreliable standard when placed in the hands of men, without inspiration or authority. There is great disparity in their interpretation as I said earlier.

"I understand that, and I do not wish to be offensive. I simply would like us to exaine the text of the Bible and see whether we can support our ideas from there or not."

I think you're trying to change our minds -- that's the impression you're creating.

"My beliefs do out of neccessity exclide you because they are so different. But yours exclude me as well. We do not believe the same things. "

I don't exclude you from being a Christian due to your diverse beliefs from mine. Why exclude people? Why not join in a service project for the common good, and to celebrate those areas we agree on? Why this strife all the time?

I'm still a Christian as I follow the example of Christ, believe his is my Savior, and try to bring the fruits of his gospel into my own life and the life of others. Philosophical nit-picking won't change that....

[SolaFide]

Orthodox Christians are only strict Monotheists from the perspective of Orthodox Christianity. If you ask a Jew or a Muslim you are not strict Monotheists. It's pretty obvious that if you establish the label by your own standards only your group will fit in it. The idea of saying that you believe in 3 persons in 1 being whereas mormons believe in 3 beings and 1 mind and that makes you more monotheistic than them sounds very odd. You still have the "3" factor and thus cannot be called a strict Monotheist. That doesn't mean you or your belief are bad or evil. But it does look like double standards to this old Jew here.

b'shalom!

You're confusing the distinctives being and person. A being is what makes something what it is. It is the essence or nature of that thing. A person, in the theological sense that I am using it, is the ability to use personal attributes. (To feel, speak, have a will, etc.) Christians, Jews, and Muslims are all Monotheistic. That is, we all believe in one being of God. That is what determines Monotheism or Polytheism: The number of beings of God. The difference that arises between Jews and Muslims and Chrsitians is that the two former groups are Unitarian Monotheists and the latter is Trinitarian Monotheists. Are disagreement is on the number of persons whithin the one being. Mormons, on the other hand, readily affirm multile beings of God; hence the Polytheistic classification.

[Vanhin]

You're confusing the distinctives being and person. A being is what makes something what it is. It is the essence or nature of that thing. A person, in the theological sense that I am using it, is the ability to use personal attributes. (To feel, speak, have a will, etc.) Christians, Jews, and Muslims are all Monotheistic. That is, we all believe in one being of God. That is what determines Monotheism or Polytheism: The number of beings of God. The difference that arises between Jews and Muslims and Chrsitians is that the two former groups are Unitarian Monotheists and the latter is Trinitarian Monotheists. Are disagreement is on the number of persons whithin the one being. Mormons, on the other hand, readily affirm multile beings of God; hence the Polytheistic classification.

Incredible. Mormons are then Godhead Monotheist, as our scriptures affirm.

By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them...

...Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen. (D&C 20:17,28)

What is happening in the following verse from the Holy Bible?

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Matt. 27:46)

Regards,

Vanhin

[Maxel]

You're confusing the distinctives being and person. A being is what makes something what it is. It is the essence or nature of that thing. A person, in the theological sense that I am using it, is the ability to use personal attributes. (To feel, speak, have a will, etc.) Christians, Jews, and Muslims are all Monotheistic. That is, we all believe in one being of God. That is what determines Monotheism or Polytheism: The number of beings of God. The difference that arises between Jews and Muslims and Chrsitians is that the two former groups are Unitarian Monotheists and the latter is Trinitarian Monotheists. Are disagreement is on the number of persons whithin the one being. Mormons, on the other hand, readily affirm multile beings of God; hence the Polytheistic classification.

SolaFide-

Muslims and Jews don't believe Christians are monotheistic, because of the Trinity. Sorry, but this issue is largely one of interpretation, philosophy, and definition. You won't convince a Rabbi that Trinitarians are monotheists. You won't convince a devout Muslim, either.

[SolaFide]

Solafide, you wrote:

"Why not? We have the Scriptures. God has revealed Himself to us. I understand that LDS folk believe that they have been corrupted over time, which is a separate issue in an ofitself that I would disagree with. But I think you can prove one poisiton over the other. Is one of them refuted by Scriture? I beilieve it is.I'm not trying to marginaliz anyone. I just want to explolre the truth and hold to it regardless of where that may put me."

My response: The problem with the scriptures is that they cannot be interpreted consistently. As this forum attests, you put a group of people with scriptures in the same room to discuss various truths, and they will arrive at vastly different conclusions. The scriptures, and in particular, the Bible, have been used to justify genocide (the Nazi's did this), war, sexual perversion, and lots of other positions that are simply not in harmony with each other. The scriptures alone, without inspiration, aren't sufficient to arrive at truth. That's why neither you are I can say definitively if the Nicene Creed or the Godhead concept is correct; this will only be evident when we have a perfect knowledge, and see for ourselves. The historical world at the time of Constantine was so divided on the nature of the Trinity/Godhead, they had to call a conference and get consensus on the issue, because the scriptures alone were not enough.

I am not saying that people cannot misuse the Scriptures. They can certainly take things out of context and read thigs in a way which they were never intended to be read. That's not the point. The point here is, "Has God revealed Himself clearly in His word?" If we say that we cannot come to Scripture and clearly understand something then we are saying that God has failed to reveal Himself clearly. However, I believe that God was quite clear in the Scripture. It is inspired and authoritative. We can look at it and see clearly what is taught. Now, do sinners sometimes refuse to see what's there? Certainly. But that doesn't detractfrom the revelation istelf. All I'm saying is that we should look at the Scriptures and see what they say.

"Let's look at Scripture and see. Maybe your right and my position is not supported and I will need to change. On the other hand, maybe my position is presented, in which case you would have to change your mind. But's lets look."

--We won't agree. There is just as much scripture indicating that the 3 Beings we're discussing are separate entities, as there is scripture supporting the Nicene conception of the Trinity. As a full-time missionary, I went into the fruitless exercise of debating this topic solely on the basis of scripture, and never found anyone to agree if they've already made up their mind, as you have. I've sat across from an Anglican minister and discussed it, a group of Anglican Seminary students, a United Church of Canada minister, a youth pastor from a born-again Church, my father, and many others, and never has this led to agreement when people had already adopted a particular religious philosophy.

I disagree that both are clearly presented. More likely, one of us is simply misreading things. I am willing to submit myself to the authority of the Scriptures. Are you? Let's look and see what it teaches.

"Actually, LDS have historically said that all non-Mormons aren't Christian. It does offend me but I understand it. LDS flounders recognized that we cannot hold to mutually exclusive essential doctrines and still both be Christians."

Please cite a credible source. This isn't taught in our Church as doctrine. We suffer repeated attacks on our decision to take upon us the name of Christ, but don't attack other religions in our meetings. The teaching manuals and Sunday School manuals teach us to focus on furthering our own ministry, rather than trying to tear down the faith of other religions. I also don't believe that. You are a Christian, as if my non-member Father, and others, provided they believe in the divinity of Christ, his atonement, and try to live his teachings.

"My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, that I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart tha all were wrong) - and which I should join.

"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt, that: 'they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.'"

This is a direct quotation from Joseph Smith himself as he reccounted the virst vision This comes from Joseph Smith History 1:18-19.

I personally consider you a Christian.

I mean this in no rude way whatsoever, but judging from the standards that I would consider to be essential to be considered a Christian (Trinity, Salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone, etc.) I cannot call you a Christian. We simply differ on the fundamental issues.

"mm:Or, I could pick ANY difference between LDS Christianity, and historical Christianity, and then use that to make up my own definition of what Christianity is, based on this significant difference --all with the aim of excluding the non-LDS religions from the circle of Christianity.

"S:I am not simply picking things out of thin air. I am going off of Scriptural standards."

As I said, the scriptures make an unreliable standard when placed in the hands of men, without inspiration or authority. There is great disparity in their interpretation as I said earlier.

With all due respect, it sounds like you do not have very much faith in the Scriptures to communicate God's revealed truth.

"I understand that, and I do not wish to be offensive. I simply would like us to exaine the text of the Bible and see whether we can support our ideas from there or not."

I think you're trying to change our minds -- that's the impression you're creating.

I would love nothing more than to see members here embrace the true Gospel of Christ. And I recognize that saying "you're wrong" is offensive but I am trying my best ot be respectful of everyone here persoanlly and wish to thoughtfully engage the issues taht separate us.

"My beliefs do out of neccessity exclide you because they are so different. But yours exclude me as well. We do not believe the same things. "

I don't exclude you from being a Christian due to your diverse beliefs from mine. Why exclude people? Why not join in a service project for the common good, and to celebrate those areas we agree on? Why this strife all the time?

You may not call me a non-Christian but your church has historically held that I am not one. And we differ on key beliefs that define Christianity. That is what divides us. Can we discuss those issues?

I'm still a Christian as I follow the example of Christ, believe his is my Savior, and try to bring the fruits of his gospel into my own life and the life of others. Philosophical nit-picking won't change that....

"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name preform many miracles?' And I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.' (Matthew 7:22-23)

"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in Spirit and truth." (John 4:24)

[Moksha]

I do think it's fair to say that the Holy Trinity is more monotheistic that the LDS Godhead. I doubt that impresses non-trinitarians much, however.

If it doesn't impress Jews or Muslims, you can tell them they have a different idea about Jesus.

:)

[Vort]

"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name preform many miracles?' And I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.' (Matthew 7:22-23)

Just so. Thank heavens (literally) we have true prophets to help keep us from the false prophecies and interpretations of men.

"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in Spirit and truth." (John 4:24)

What does God being spirit have to do with whether or not he is corporeal? Do you think the two are mutually exclusive?

If so, then based on the above scripture, are you therefore contending that it is impossible for mortal humans to worship God? After all, as long as we are in possession of mortal bodies, we cannot worship him "in Spirit". Right?

[SolaFide]

[QUOTE=Vanhin;450127]Incredible. Mormons are then Godhead Monotheist, as our scriptures affirm.

By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them...

...Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen. (D&C 20:17,28)

"I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have selected this text for that express purpose. I wich to declare I have always and in all congregations when I preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the elders for fifteen years. " ~ Joseph Fielding Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith.

What is happening in the following verse from the Holy Bible?

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Matt. 27:46)

Jesus is quoting from Psalm 22:1, a messianic Psalm that describs how the Messiah would be crushed for the sake of His people. It was intended to further show those in attendance who He really was.

Regards,

Vanhin

[SolaFide]

Just so. Thank heavens (literally) we have true prophets to help keep us from the false prophecies and interpretations of men.

"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing His way into in." (Luke 16:16)

What does God being spirit have to do with whether or not he is corporeal? Do you think the two are mutually exclusive?

One can be Spirit and and have a body, certainly. Humans are a fine example. But God is said to be Spirit and is never recorded in Scripture to have a physical body.

If so, then based on the above scripture, are you therefore contending that it is impossible for mortal humans to worship God? After all, as long as we are in possession of mortal bodies, we cannot worship him "in Spirit". Right?

With all due respect, you have missed my point. I quoted John 4:24 because of where it says we must worship God in TRUTH. I am pointing out that we cannot have false conceptions of God and still be worshiping Him. Scripture demands that we must worship in truth.

[Vort]

One can be Spirit and and have a body, certainly. Humans are a fine example. But God is said to be Spirit and is never recorded in Scripture to have a physical body.

This is blatantly false. Even your own "Christian" doctrine, whatever it might be (and it apparently is not Latter-day Saint, despite your profile), must surely teach that Christ was born of a woman, resurrected after death, and walked and ate fish and honeycomb with his disciples after his resurrection.

Ergo, body.

With all due respect, you have missed my point. I quoted John 4:24 because of where it says we must worship God in TRUTH. I am pointing out that we cannot have false conceptions of God and still be worshiping Him. Scripture demands that we must worship in truth.

So since you have a false concept of God -- seeing as how you reject that he has a body, in clear contradiction to plain Biblical teachings -- are you then claiming that you cannot worship him?

[SolaFide]

SolaFide-

Muslims and Jews don't believe Christians are monotheistic, because of the Trinity. Sorry, but this issue is largely one of interpretation, philosophy, and definition. You won't convince a Rabbi that Trinitarians are monotheists. You won't convince a devout Muslim, either.

First of all, you are making a very broad statement. "You will never convince individual X". Seeing as how you do not know every Jew and every Muslim, that is a little presumptuous, isn't it? An honest person who recognizes that Being is what defines what something is will see that the number of beings correspnds to number of Gods. This is not the issue that divides Christians from Muslims or Jews. Some might misunderstand the issue and claim it is the problem, but it is not. A person who beleives in one being of God is a monotheist. The separation comes over the number of persons in God. Christians are Trinitarian Monotheists. Muslims and Jews and Unitarian Monotheists. Thats the issue.

[Vort]

First of all, you are making a very broad statement. "You will never convince individual X". Seeing as how you do not know every Jew and every Muslim, that is a little presumptuous, isn't it?

An interesting statement. Perhaps you are right. Then what are we to make of your very next sentence?

An honest person who recognizes that Being is what defines what something is will see

How do you know this? Do you know every "honest person who recognizes that Being is what defines what something is"? Then how can you possibly state what all such persons "will see"?

(Answer: You can't.)

that the number of beings correspnds to number of Gods. This is not the issue that divides Christians from Muslims or Jews. Some might misunderstand the issue and claim it is the problem, but it is not. A person who beleives in one being of God is a monotheist. The separation comes over the number of persons in God. Christians are Trinitarian Monotheists. Muslims and Jews and Unitarian Monotheists. Thats the issue.

Nah. This is pure revisionist creedal Christian doublespeak.

[SolaFide]

This is blatantly false. Even your own "Christian" doctrine, whatever it might be (and it apparently is not Latter-day Saint, despite your profile), must surely teach that Christ was born of a woman, resurrected after death, and walked and ate fish and honeycomb with his disciples after his resurrection.

Ergo, body.

We are talking past each other, which is my fault because I was not clear enough. My aplogies. The second person of the Trinity, the Son, took on flesh. This is the doctrine of the Incarnation. However, the verse in question, John 4:24, is in reference to the Father. The Father is never said to have a physical body. And no, I am not a Mormon. I was not trying to be deceptive in my profile. My understanding of it is that it lump LDS with Christian groups. (Which is exactly my contention here.)

So since you have a false concept of God -- seeing as how you reject that he has a body, in clear contradiction to plain Biblical teachings -- are you then claiming that you cannot worship him?

The Father is spirit and has no body.

[SolaFide]

An interesting statement. Perhaps you are right. Then what are we to make of your very next sentence?

How do you know this? Do you know every "honest person who recognizes that Being is what defines what something is"? Then how can you possibly state what all such persons "will see"?

(Answer: You can't.)

My statement is perfectly logical. What will all honest people do? Tell the truth. You can't lie and be honest at the same time. That's a contradiction. If a person understands an issue correctly, then they will fairly represent it, assmuing they are honest. So, all honest people who understand the issue will see the issue just as I have stated it.

Nah. This is pure revisionist creedal Christian doublespeak.

It is Biblical. That is why I have asked all along for any would be willing to discuss the Scriptures with me to see the truth.

[Vort]

We are talking past each other, which is my fault because I was not clear enough. My aplogies. The second person of the Trinity, the Son, took on flesh. This is the doctrine of the Incarnation.

Can you please show me the Biblical usage of the term "second person of the Trinity"? I seem to have missed that.

However, the verse in question, John 4:24, is in reference to the Father. The Father is never said to have a physical body.

Didn't you just get through saying that you are a monotheist? Now you're just using nonsensical Augustinian word redefinition. "One really means three, and many is still one."

And no, I am not a Mormon. I was not trying to be deceptive in my profile.

Then why didn't you choose one of the other "Christian" options available to you?

My understanding of it is that it lump LDS with Christian groups. (Which is exactly my contention here.)

I can derive no meaning from this. I think there are some words missing or something.

The Father is spirit and has no body.

Prove it from the Bible.

[Vort]

My statement is perfectly logical. What will all honest people do? Tell the truth. You can't lie and be honest at the same time. That's a contradiction.

True enough. Then why do you believe blatantly false, anti-Biblical things? Are you saying that you are dishonest?

If a person understands an issue correctly, then they will fairly represent it, assmuing they are honest. So, all honest people who understand the issue will see the issue just as I have stated it.

Naturally. No one can possibly disagree with you without being either (1) a liar or (2) a fool.

Thanks for clearing that up for us, Mister "I'm-an-LDS-Christian".

Christians are Trinitarian Monotheists. Muslims and Jews and Unitarian Monotheists. Thats the issue.

Nah. This is pure revisionist creedal Christian doublespeak.

It is Biblical.

Then show for me in the Bible where the term "Trinitarian Monotheist" occurs. You claim it's Biblical, and you claim you are truthful. Then show where the Biblical term comes from.

[SolaFide]

Can you please show me the Biblical usage of the term "second person of the Trinity"? I seem to have missed that.

It is a term that is inended to describe a Biblical doctrine. The word "Bible" is not in the Bible. That doesn't negate it's proper usage.

Didn't you just get through saying that you are a monotheist? Now you're just using nonsensical Augustinian word redefinition. "One really means three, and many is still one."

With all due respect, I think you do not understant the Trinity. It is the doctrine that there is one being that is God who exists as three persons. God is often used to describe the Father alone (although is used of the Son and Spirit as well) just as Lord is used to describe the Son.

Then why didn't you choose one of the other "Christian" options available to you?

I can derive no meaning from this. I think there are some words missing or something.

It's because the two statements were meant to go together. When i registered the option was LDS/Christian or something to that effect. LDS was lumped in with Christian and I don't know how (if I can at all) to distingush the two on my profile.

I was then say in a light-hearted way that that the reason I'm here is to distinguish between LDS and Christianity.

Prove it from the Bible.

John 4:24. God (which is in reference to the Father) is Spirit. Only the Son is ever described as having a physicl body. The Father is never said to have a physical body. I think the burden of proof is to demonstrate from Scripture that He does.

[SolaFide]

True enough. Then why do you believe blatantly false, anti-Biblical things? Are you saying that you are dishonest?

It is easy to make jabs. Can you at least state what I believe that is unBiblical? and then please defend your view that it is unBiblical.

Naturally. No one can possibly disagree with you without being either (1) a liar or (2) a fool.

Thanks for clearing that up for us, Mister "I'm-an-LDS-Christian".

Read the above post, please.

Then show for me in the Bible where the term "Trinitarian Monotheist" occurs. You claim it's Biblical, and you claim you are truthful. Then show where the Biblical term comes from.

Like I said in the above post, it is a term used to describe a Biblical concept. "Bible" is not in the Bible. Neither is "Doctrine of Covenant", "Eternal Progression" and many other terms Mormons use. The term itself is just intended to be a helpful way to describe the Biblical idea.

[Maxel]

First of all, you are making a very broad statement. "You will never convince individual X". Seeing as how you do not know every Jew and every Muslim, that is a little presumptuous, isn't it? An honest person who recognizes that Being is what defines what something is will see that the number of beings correspnds to number of Gods. This is not the issue that divides Christians from Muslims or Jews. Some might misunderstand the issue and claim it is the problem, but it is not. A person who beleives in one being of God is a monotheist. The separation comes over the number of persons in God. Christians are Trinitarian Monotheists. Muslims and Jews and Unitarian Monotheists. Thats the issue.

With all due respect, SolaFide, you're making theological distinctions that the Jewish and Islam religions reject. Generally, (theologically speaking) triune Christians are the only ones who contend that a triune God is monotheistic.

If my previous statement was somewhat broad, I apologize- but the gist and thrust of the message is still accurate and important.

[Maxel]

SolaFide, God's triune nature cannot be proven from the Bible. There's not enough evidence. This fact is admitted by not a few Christian writings.

If one wants to believe in a triune God, then they will find the evidence they need. However, the corpus of scripture is insufficient to prove that a triune God exists- especially in all the intricacies defined by the Nicean Creed. Admittedly, the Bible alone is insufficient to prove the Mormon doctrine of the Godhead- however, we aren't limited to the writings contained in the Bible (a collection of books declared authoritative and inspired by a council of men without authority). Our canon is open in practice, and we receive new revelation from He whose right it is to give it.

[Vort]

Can you please show me the Biblical usage of the term "second person of the Trinity"? I seem to have missed that.

It is a term that is inended to describe a Biblical doctrine.

But it is not Biblical doctrine. You (or someone else) just made the word up. No scriptural usage at all.

The word "Bible" is not in the Bible.

Wrong. It is used throughout the Bible. A few examples:

Matthew 1:1 Βίβλος γενέσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ...

John 20:30 ...οὐκ ἔστιν γεγραμμένα ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τούτῳ

Revelation 22:19 καὶ ἐάν τις ἀφαιρῇ ἀπὸ τῶν λόγων βίβλου τῆς προφητείας ταύτης ἀφαιρήσει ὁ θεὸς τὸ μέρος αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ βίβλου τῆς ζωῆς καὶ ἐκ τῆς πόλεως τῆς ἁγίας καὶ τῶν γεγραμμένων ἐν βιβλίῳ τούτῳ

That doesn't negate it's proper usage.

Speaking of which, you might wish to review the proper usage of the apostrophe in the word "it's".

Didn't you just get through saying that you are a monotheist? Now you're just using nonsensical Augustinian word redefinition. "One really means three, and many is still one."

With all due respect, I think you do not understant the Trinity. It is the doctrine that there is one being that is God who exists as three persons.

What leads you to believe that I don't understand the creedal Christian concept of "Trinity", invented after Paul's death and formalized in the fourth century AD?

Then why didn't you choose one of the other "Christian" options available to you?

I can derive no meaning from this. I think there are some words missing or something.

It's because the two statements were meant to go together. When i registered the option was LDS/Christian or something to that effect.

So "Christian" wasn't good enough for you? You felt that you had to misrepresent yourself?

LDS was lumped in with Christian and I don't know how (if I can at all) to distingush the two on my profile.

Seriously? You could figure out how to select "Christian/LDS", but you couldn't figure out how to select "Christian"?

I was then say in a light-hearted way that that the reason I'm here is to distinguish between LDS and Christianity.

What makes you think you're qualified to make a distinction between the Lord's Church and what you think it should be?

Prove it from the Bible.

John 4:24. God (which is in reference to the Father) is Spirit.

This proves nothing. How does being a spirit disqualify one from having a body? THE SAME VERSE OF SCRIPTURE says that we must worship "in spirit". If your interpretation is correct -- this scripture proves that the Father has no body because he is "spirit" -- then you must believe yourself incapable of worshiping, since you DO have a body.

I have brought this point up before. You ignored it. Dishonesty? Or just an oversight? Here's your chance to set the record straight.

Only the Son is ever described as having a physicl body. The Father is never said to have a physical body. I think the burden of proof is to demonstrate from Scripture that He does.

Why? YOU are the one making the strange claim -- that an existent being is incorporeal. Prove it.

Besides, the Bible has numerous references to God as having a body. Here is a quick sampling:

Genesis 1:27 God created man in his own image.

Genesis 5:1 ...in the likeness of God made he him.

Genesis 32:30 I have seen God face to face.

Exodus 24;10 And they saw the God of Israel, and there was under his feet as it were a paved work...

Exodus 31:18 And he gave unto Moses...two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Exodus 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Matthew 4:4 Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

John 14:9 ...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father.

2 Corinthians 4:4 ...Christ, who is the image of God.

[SolaFide]

SolaFide, God's triune nature cannot be proven from the Bible. There's not enough evidence. This fact is admitted by not a few Christian writings.

Okay, hold on. Which Christians are you refering to? Again, this is just a broad stroke. Can you be specific? Becaue I would content that it can be demonstrated quite clearly.

If one wants to believe in a triune God, then they will find the evidence they need. However, the corpus of scripture is insufficient to prove that a triune God exists- especially in all the intricacies defined by the Nicean Creed. Admittedly, the Bible alone is insufficient to prove the Mormon doctrine of the Godhead- however, we aren't limited to the writings contained in the Bible (a collection of books declared authoritative and inspired by a council of men without authority). Our canon is open in practice, and we receive new revelation from He whose right it is to give it.

Again, I disagree. I beleie we can look at Scripturea and one of us will be refuted. od has spoken and He has donw so clearly. Will you examine the Scripture with me to see what is says?

And to the Muslim/Jew issue, the issue is Trinitarian Monotheism vs. Unitarian Monotheism. Would some misunderstand the issue and turn it into Monotheism vs Polytheism? Yes. But that is a flawed way of arguing.

[Vort]

And to the Muslim/Jew issue, the issue is Trinitarian Monotheism vs. Unitarian Monotheism. Would some misunderstand the issue and turn it into Monotheism vs Polytheism? Yes. But that is a flawed way of arguing.

Amazing.

Here is a rule by which we can know truth: Any coin, when flipped, will come up heads.

What's that, you say? Your coin flip came up tails? Then you can safely ignore that result, because we know that any coin, when flipped, will come up heads.

Thus we can prove that coin tosses always and only produce heads, or that the Trinity is a true doctrine.

[Misshalfway]

Again, I disagree. I beleie we can look at Scripturea and one of us will be refuted. od has spoken and He has donw so clearly. Will you examine the Scripture with me to see what is says?

.

And what exactly do you hope to accomplish thru such a Biblical interchange? I mean what real value is there in "proving" that you are "right" other than the satisfaction of the selfish win and the chest beating that follows? Is this the process of conversion that the scriptures we both love talks about?

Other than wondering how such a strategy could ever be considered effective (no matter who is doing it), I scratch my head as these religious contests play out and as they fail to show the love of the God we profess to worship.

Why not instead come to a website like this with an open mind seeking to understand more of another's position rather than coming in with guns a blazing which no doubt puts the natives on the defense? I understand that both our religious organizations place a great deal of emphasis on gaining converts, but I would think that at the very least you catch more with honey. And even that, is so far beneath where I think the Lord wants us to be. Where two or more are gathered in HIs name..... I would think at least love and mutual respect is better than all the fruits of bashing.

Enough of my commentary. Let the games continue if they must.