Soul/Spirit/Ghost...

[Moksha]

In what sense is the ghost of a dead manga drawing feminist?

Shoudn't be too feminist in any sense. The idea that women can appear in a drawing in Spirit form seems only right on a spiritual level.

[Maya]

Getting back to "Ghost and "Spirit":)

This is the way it has worked out for me.

or

This is what I have always taught.

Spirit = Spirit body before if is joined with flesh.

Ghost = Referring to the spirit body after it has been joined with the flesh.

For me to hear the "Holy Ghost" referred to as the "Holy Spirit" is like fingernails on the chalkboard.

Just a thought;)

Bro. Rudick

Interesting thoughts....

Are Norwegian meatballs about the same as Swedish meatballs? I love Swedish meatballs with noodles but I would be willing to refer to them as Norwegian.

I am afraid we eat Swedish meetballs here too... but I have nothing against calling them Norwegean!

A friend of mine in the Finnish forum has some interesting points on this subject. He is a filosofist so I am not sure if I can translate his toughts here well enough... Vanhin can maybe help ... in the Finnish Foum.

Here From Mikael:

Soul manifests it self in feelings, will and values but it also has fysical handlings. Spirit and body together make the Soul. They both interfere one an other, it is a unity where it is difficult to separate the spirit from teh body. One can also talk about a real "me" that is for higher values. This seems to come from the experiences from out Heavenly beeings.

DC131 7-8

About intelligence: Is it right to say that the intelignce we have was individual? If it was thus then it feels there wa not much difference between the spirit child and intelligence. Inteligence is born to a child, but how did inteligence become an individual? I been thinking that Intelligence is unindividual possibility to clothe in individuality. (I dont quite chatch his idea there, I quess my intelligences dont get that one)

Then he mentions an other thing that may even be the same: The light of Christ, taht si everywhere and enlightens every thing and fills the universe... : It is unindividual, but it effects everything. We know it as conciense, that is to know the right from wrong. And with help from the Holy Ghost we learn the truth of everything. Holy Ghost is a spirit person whos origin asi I understand, is not revealed to us.

[Vanhin]

Thanks for the info :)

I don't think hemi was trying to teach anything as "doctrine" just something to ponder. There is a difference between a chat room and Sacrament meeting too IMO...

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

30 All truth is independent in that asphere in which God has placed it, to bact for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:29 - 31)

IMO (not telling anyone what to believe, JMO) the agency of man comes from that which was not created.

Yes! You are right. Both spirit element and the light of truth, are uncreated, and they are both called intelligence. Agency is derived from having the truth plainly manifested to us, through the light of Christ, and being placed into environments where we can choose. God places us into these spheres, to act for ourselves, based on the knowledge plainly manifested in the light that is in all things and gives light and life to all things. One of the many manifestations of the light of Christ, is conscience.

We increase in truth and light, when we receive the light, and are condemned, when we receive it not. Through eternities of progression, we arrive at this point, where we are placed into a new sphere, by God, to act for ourselves. This time, we take upon us tabernacles, for the first time. These tabernacles are of flesh. James E. Talmage, in his book Jesus The Christ seems to share my understanding, of these intelligences.

Thus it is shown that prior to the placing of man upon the earth, how long before we do not know, Christ and Satan, together with the hosts of the spirit-children of God, existed as intelligent individuals, possessing power and opportunity to choose the course they would pursue and the leaders whom they would follow and obey. In that great concourse of spirit-intelligences, the Father's plan, whereby His children would be advanced to their second estate, was submitted and doubtless discussed. The opportunity so placed within the reach of the spirits who were to be privileged to take bodies upon the earth was so transcendently glorious that those heavenly multitudes burst forth into song and shouted for joy. (The Project Gutenberg eBook of Jesus The Christ, by James E. Talmage.)

Jesus The Christ is a special book, because it is one of the very few books, besides the scriptures, which the missionaries are allowed to read. I just don't see evidence in the scriptures or the consistent writings of modern prophets and apostles, that intelligence refers to something besides spirit, or the light of truth - except for the obvious definition, which is knowledge. In the notes for Chapter 2, Talmage includes the following:

1. Graded Intelligences in the Antemortal State.—That the spirits of men existed as individual intelligences, of varying degrees of ability and power, prior to the inauguration of the mortal state upon this earth and even prior to the creation of the world as a suitable abode for human beings, is shown in great plainness through a divine revelation to Abraham: "Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; and God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born." (P. of G.P., Abraham 3:22, 23.)

The scriptures seem to concur.

Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth...Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be...For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; (D&C 93:23,29,38)

I maintain that man is spirit at his core. We are currently dual beings: spirit and flesh, ever enlightened by the light of Christ, which gives us light and life.

There is no part of us that is not eternal. Spirit element is eternal and physical element is eternal. Further, the light of Christ is eternal.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Vort]

But you speak the truth. I am both a believer and a recipient such mysteries that Alma 12:9 is talking about.

Agreed. I, too, have received inspiration about mysteries, though in my case it is about the more mundane-seeming concepts of faith and atonement, and even then primarily that such things are efficacious. I have not received particular inspiration about the mechanical operation of such principles. Needless to say, I have not received (nor have I asked) about esoteric and unimportant trivia such as the location of the ten tribes or whether the Three Nephites are free for dinner next Wednesday.

I think it is prudent to be leery of members of the Church who attempt go beyond what has been "given to the Church", and teach it as doctrine, especially out here in such a public venue.

Here I agree with you completely.

Now, would any member doubt that Bruce R. McConkie had seen Christ, or had his calling and election made sure?

Yes. I certainly do. In fact, Elder McConkie's final testimony suggests that this had not happened:

I am one of his witnesses, and in a coming day I shall feel the nail marks in his hands and in his feet and shall wet his feet with my tears.

But I shall not know any better then than I know now that he is God’s Almighty Son, that he is our Savior and Redeemer, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning blood and in no other way.

This may be interpreted many ways, of course. I interpret it as meaning that the witness he had received through the ministrations of the Holy Ghost were so strong and complete that even the future event of seeing the Savior would have no further convincing power.

Here's what he has to say about it.

Intelligence or light and truth, is also used as a synonym for spirit element. Scriptures using both terms speak of the self-existent nature of the substance involved. (D. & C. 93:29; 131:7-8.) Abraham calls the pre-existent spirits the intelligences that were organized before the world was" (Abra. 3:22) because the intelligences were organized intelligence or in other words the spirit bodies were born from spirit element. (Mormon Doctrine, p.387)

Quite simply, this is incorrect. The term "spirit element" exists nowhere in scripture. Elder McConkie's identification of "intelligence" with "spirit element" is taken straight from his father-in-law, who famously (or infamously, depending on who you talk to) believed that the spirits of the unrepentant would ultimately degenerate back to the spirit element, or intelligence, from which they were formed. This doctrine appears to be an invention of Joseph F. Smith himself, since I have not found it mentioned anywhere else by anyone previous to him (though I am sure that some of the ideas it is based on were floating around for many years).

Certainly there is no credible evidence that Joseph Smith taught or believed any such thing.

I think that is what people have been confusing for something else, a third component that is not spirit or light. Spirit matter is intelligence, and before we were born of heavenly parents, it existed eternally. Beyond that, we don't know, what form it was in, whether it was unorganized (which I favor) or something else.

Then you come up against the same very obvious doctrinal dilemma that has plagued philosophers and theologians throughout human history: If an all-powerful God created a man in a way of his (God's) own choosing -- that is, created that man's decision-making capacity; and if that same all-knowing God could therefore see from before the time he created the man that the man would make choices that would damn him eternally; then it is God, not the man, who is responsible for the man's evil choices, and the man's condemnation for acting as he was created by God to act is unjust. (Saying "But God gave man his free agency!" is nonsensical and circular, since the ability to choose is preconditioned on a mechanism that allows choice-making to occur, and God created that mechanism.)

[Vanhin]

Agreed. I, too, have received inspiration about mysteries, though in my case it is about the more mundane-seeming concepts of faith and atonement, and even then primarily that such things are efficacious. I have not received particular inspiration about the mechanical operation of such principles. Needless to say, I have not received (nor have I asked) about esoteric and unimportant trivia such as the location of the ten tribes or whether the Three Nephites are free for dinner next Wednesday.

Exactly.

Yes. I certainly do. In fact, Elder McConkie's final testimony suggests that this had not happened:

I am one of his witnesses, and in a coming day I shall feel the nail marks in his hands and in his feet and shall wet his feet with my tears.

But I shall not know any better then than I know now that he is God’s Almighty Son, that he is our Savior and Redeemer, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning blood and in no other way.

This may be interpreted many ways, of course. I interpret it as meaning that the witness he had received through the ministrations of the Holy Ghost were so strong and complete that even the future event of seeing the Savior would have no further convincing power.

I think that he is saying that the only way to know that Jesus Christ "is God’s Almighty Son, that he is our Savior and Redeemer, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning blood and in no other way." is by the Holy Ghost - seeing him alone does not give us that witness.

The point is, if Bruce R. McConkie was a member of the "Church of the Firstborn", according to Hemi, he would have been taught the same things as Hemi - that intelligence was something other than spirit or the light of truth, he doesn't appear to speak that way, ever.

Quite simply, this is incorrect. The term "spirit element" exists nowhere in scripture. Elder McConkie's identification of "intelligence" with "spirit element" is taken straight from his father-in-law, who famously (or infamously, depending on who you talk to) believed that the spirits of the unrepentant would ultimately degenerate back to the spirit element, or intelligence, from which they were formed. This doctrine appears to be an invention of Joseph F. Smith himself, since I have not found it mentioned anywhere else by anyone previous to him (though I am sure that some of the ideas it is based on were floating around for many years).

He doesn't say the term "spirit element" is found in the scriptures. So, the rest of your rebuttal is pointless since you are attacking things he didn't say. He said, "Intelligence or light and truth, is also used as a synonym for spirit element. Scriptures using both terms (intelligence and light [of] truth) speak of the self-existent nature of the substance involved." And then he gives the references - (D. & C. 93:29; 131:7-8.)

Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be (D&C 93:29)

The boldface above indicates the terms he is referring to.

But spirit element is spoken about in scripture. The above being one of the references.

Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

and later in the same chapter...

For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

and this famous scripture...

There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;(D&C 131:7)

Certainly there is no credible evidence that Joseph Smith taught or believed any such thing.

Clearly he did, since it has been canonized. Not only that, the recent church publication, Guide to the Scriptures, that is added at the back of every foreign Book of Mormon, acknowledges that intelligence is spirit element (see Guide to the Scriptures: Intelligence, Intelligences)

Very nice try though...

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[Vort]

I think that he is saying that the only way to know that Jesus Christ "is God’s Almighty Son, that he is our Savior and Redeemer, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning blood and in no other way." is by the Holy Ghost - seeing him alone does not give us that witness.

I don't disagree. I was responding specifically to your question, "would any member doubt that Bruce R. McConkie had seen Christ, or had his calling and election made sure?" I would disagree, as I am sure would many others.

The point is, if Bruce R. McConkie was a member of the "Church of the Firstborn", according to Hemi, he would have been taught the same things as Hemi - that intelligence was something other than spirit or the light of truth, he doesn't appear to speak that way, ever.

Not sure I agree. Why would being a member of the Church of the Firstborn confer all knowledge upon someone? I would assume that "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little" would still apply.

He doesn't say the term "spirit element" is found in the scriptures. So, the rest of your rebuttal is pointless since you are attacking things he didn't say. He said, "Intelligence or light and truth, is also used as a synonym for spirit element. Scriptures using both terms (intelligence and light [of] truth) speak of the self-existent nature of the substance involved." And then he gives the references - (D. & C. 93:29; 131:7-8.)

You may be right about the antecedents to "both terms". But the point is, the terms are not "used as a synonym for spirit element". That is Elder McConkie's gloss, certainly not implicit in the wording.

But spirit element is spoken about in scripture. The above being one of the references.

Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

There is no internal indication that this is talking of "spirit element". That is a meaning that you are assigning to it externally.

and later in the same chapter...

For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

Of course. The body (element) and the spirit, when inseparably connected, receive exaltation. This is a staple of our doctrine. It says nothing about "spirit element".

and this famous scripture...

There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;(D&C 131:7)

Of course. The spirit, made of some sort of "spirit element", is the container of our intelligence, just as our body, made of physical element, is currently the container of our spirit.

Certainly there is no credible evidence that Joseph Smith taught or believed [that "intelligence" is the same as "spirit element"].

Clearly he did, since it has been canonized.

But this is the point, Vanhin. It has not been canonized. You are simply overlaying your gloss on what scripture says. Your gloss is that scripture teaches that "intelligence" is a synonym for "spirit element". This is not the case, however. Scripture says no such thing.

Not only that, the recent church publication, Guide to the Scriptures, that is added at the back of every foreign Book of Mormon, acknowledges that intelligence is spirit element (see Guide to the Scriptures: Intelligence, Intelligences)

Unless I missed it at the October General Conference, the Guide to the Scriptures is not itself scripture. It has approximately the same scriptural value as the teachings of former apostles that the blacks would not receive the Priesthood until every son of Shem (i.e. white man) had been given that opportunity.

Very nice try though...

This is not a competition, Vanhin.

[Vanhin]

Those scriptures do speak of "spirit element".

Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

Man was also in the beginning with God, since intelligence (or the light of truth) cannot be created. Then comes the unequivocal statement, man is spirit. Even the term "light of truth" is defined as "Spirit" in the same chapter.

Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth; (D&C 93:23)

So whatever makes up man, in his most primary form, it is spirit.

You cannot derived one speck of support for an entity called intelligence that is not spirit from the scriptures. Whatever intelligence is, it is spirit, and spirit is matter. So "spirit element" can be derived from the scriptures.

Unless I missed it at the October General Conference, the Guide to the Scriptures is not itself scripture. It has approximately the same scriptural value as the teachings of former apostles that the blacks would not receive the Priesthood until every son of Shem (i.e. white man) had been given that opportunity.

No it is not, scripture. I'm using it as evidence, along with the scriptures and other sources, to show that it's not just my "gloss" on what the scriptures say.

I have already shown that even Joseph Smith used intelligence interchangeably with spirit, and so did James E. Talmage, Bruce R. McConckie, and many others, including the committee in charge of writing the Guide to the Scriptures, who would have been familiar with the "other" definition. Those are in my previous posts. I agree with them

This is not a competition, Vanhin.

I meant that as a complement. It was a valiant effort.

And no, I'm not interested in arguing about it. I appreciate your contribution.

Thanks,

Vanhin

[JohnnyRudick]

Exactly.

I think that he is saying that the only way to know that Jesus Christ "is God’s Almighty Son, that he is our Savior and Redeemer, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning blood and in no other way." is by the Holy Ghost - seeing him alone does not give us that witness.

The point is, if Bruce R. McConkie was a member of the "Church of the Firstborn", according to Hemi, he would have been taught the same things as Hemi - that intelligence was something other than spirit or the light of truth, he doesn't appear to speak that way, ever.

He doesn't say the term "spirit element" is found in the scriptures. So, the rest of your rebuttal is pointless since you are attacking things he didn't say. He said, "Intelligence or light and truth, is also used as a synonym for spirit element. Scriptures using both terms (intelligence and light [of] truth) speak of the self-existent nature of the substance involved." And then he gives the references - (D. & C. 93:29; 131:7-8.)

Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be (D&C 93:29)

The boldface above indicates the terms he is referring to.

But spirit element is spoken about in scripture. The above being one of the references.

Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

and later in the same chapter...

For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

and this famous scripture...

There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;(D&C 131:7)

Clearly he did, since it has been canonized. Not only that, the recent church publication, Guide to the Scriptures, that is added at the back of every foreign Book of Mormon, acknowledges that intelligence is spirit element (see Guide to the Scriptures: Intelligence, Intelligences)

Very nice try though...

Sincerely,

Vanhin

There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;(D&C 131:7)

That last verse kept coming back to me also as I read the posts.

Thanks:)

[Vort]

Those scriptures do speak of "spirit element".

Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

Please note: No mention of "spirit element".

Man was also in the beginning with God, since intelligence (or the light of truth) cannot be created.

Correct. But a pile of "spirit element" is not a man. Man is an intelligence.

Consider Joseph Smith's teachings at the funeral sermon for elder Follett:

Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit* from age to age, and there is no creation about it.

Now consider the asterisked footnote, written by Elder B. H. Roberts (I think; I might be mistaken about that):

* "A spirit from age to age" -- not "spirit from age to age;" but "a spirit," that is, an entity, a person, an individual. This paragraph in the Prophet's remarks may well be taken as an interpretation of Doc. and Cov. sec 93:29.

A lump of "spirit matter" is not "an entity, a person, an individual".

So whatever makes up man, in his most primary form, it is spirit.

This is not what the scripture says. This is simply your gloss.

You cannot derived one speck of support for an entity called intelligence that is not spirit from the scriptures.

I can derive at least as much support for this idea from scripture as you can for the idea that intelligence is "spirit matter".

Whatever intelligence is, it is spirit, and spirit is matter. So "spirit element" can be derived from the scriptures.

This daisy chaining doesn't work. God is spirit, as well, so therefore God is a pile of "spirit element". Huh-uh.

I have already shown that even Joseph Smith used intelligence interchangeably with spirit,

I don't think you have shown this. You have expressed your opinion to this effect, but you have not shown that Joseph Smith used "intelligence" interchangeably with "spirit". On the contrary, "the glory of God is spirit" is not found in any scripture, nor is it an accurate approximation of the true scriptural teaching.

[Vanhin]

Vort,

I'll let someone who believes that "intelligence" is a "pile" or "lump" of spirit element answer your post. Since you are making a habit out of mis characterizing statements and then attacking those mis characterizations instead, I'll just wait for you to present me with an accurate portrayal of my stance along with your response, before I engage you further.

Thank you for your perspective on this topic up to this point.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Vanhin]

I am sure that I am not being very successful at convincing anyone that intelligence is spirit, who does not already believe it. I'm okay with that. :)

Though I did want to add another scripture reference that I have been meaning to point out, that supports my belief that intelligence is spirit. This is out of the Book of Abraham, which introduced us to the term to begin with.

Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born. (Abraham 3:22-23)

Here once again, the term "intelligence" is synonymous with "spirit", and not something else that is not spirit.

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited December 11, 2009 by Vanhin

[Maya]

Anyone listened to BYPs videoes on this subject:

YouTube - TheBackyardProfessor's Channel

He has made quite a few of these videoes about this subject...

[Maya]

I am just reading... you guys are doing so fine without me... just keep on... Vanhin you can also write about this here: http://www.mormonismi.com/showthread.php?p=309748#post309748 I am sure Mikael and Unski would like some inteligent people to talk with... for a change...

[Vanhin]

I am just reading... you guys are doing so fine without me... just keep on... Vanhin you can also write about this here: http://www.mormonismi.com/showthread.php?p=309748#post309748 I am sure Mikael and Unski would like some inteligent people to talk with... for a change...

Haha, I've had this conversation with Unski before, and I think for the most part, he disagreed with me too. If I remember correctly.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Vort]

I'll let someone who believes that "intelligence" is a "pile" or "lump" of spirit element answer your post. Since you are making a habit out of mis characterizing statements and then attacking those mis characterizations instead, I'll just wait for you to present me with an accurate portrayal of my stance along with your response, before I engage you further.

I'm doing the best I can, Vanhin. I am attempting to understand and characterize your viewpoint correctly. If I am not doing so, you can correct me.

Or you can just tell me that I failed and that you're going to wait for me to get it right before engaging in conversation. I guess that works, too.

[Vort]

Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born. (Abraham 3:22-23)

Here once again, the term "intelligence" is synonymous with "spirit", and not something else that is not spirit.

This is plainly incorrect. I'm really struggling to see how you can even maintain this belief in the face of the scriptures you yourself are quoting.

"Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was"

Which intelligences was Abraham being shown? Not all of them, only that subset consisting of intelligences that were organized. What does it mean for an intelligence to be "organized"? I can think of at least two possible meanings:

• Organized means dressed in spirit; i.e. those intelligences were put in spiritual form. I assume this would not be unlike our spirits being put in bodily form, as we are now.
• Organized means divided into hierarchical ranks; i.e. the intelligences were divided into groups for some purpose.

I have always assumed Meaning #1, but I see no reason why Meaning #2 might not be correct. In either case, I cannot see how you maintain that this verse shows that "intelligence" is synonymous with "spirit".

"for he stood among those that were spirits"

Again, which part of the group of intelligences did he stand among? Those that were spirits. If we assume Meaning #1 from above, it probably means "those who had been organized into spiritual form." If we assume Meaning #2, is probably means "that subset that had already been clothed in spirit and divided from the rest."

I think that these particular verses can be used to buttress my interpretation of things at least as well as they can yours. This does not mean that I am right and you are wrong, but it does mean that they don't prove your point.

EDIT: On rereading, I think I understand your inference. I agree that "organized intelligence" might be synonymous with "spirit", assuming you agree with Meaning #1 above. But that's still different from saying that "intelligence" is synonymous with "spirit", which is how I understand your claim.

Edited December 11, 2009 by Vort

[JohnnyRudick]

This is plainly incorrect. I'm really struggling to see how you can even maintain this belief in the face of the scriptures you yourself are quoting.

"Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was"

Which intelligences was Abraham being shown? Not all of them, only that subset consisting of intelligences that were organized. What does it mean for an intelligence to be "organized"? I can think of at least two possible meanings:

• Organized means dressed in spirit; i.e. those intelligences were put in spiritual form. I assume this would not be unlike our spirits being put in bodily form, as we are now.
• Organized means divided into hierarchical ranks; i.e. the intelligences were divided into groups for some purpose.

I have always assumed Meaning #1, but I see no reason why Meaning #2 might not be correct. In either case, I cannot see how you maintain that this verse shows that "intelligence" is synonymous with "spirit".

"for he stood among those that were spirits"

Again, which part of the group of intelligences did he stand among? Those that were spirits. If we assume Meaning #1 from above, it probably means "those who had been organized into spiritual form." If we assume Meaning #2, is probably means "that subset that had already been clothed in spirit and divided from the rest."

I think that these particular verses can be used to buttress my interpretation of things at least as well as they can yours. This does not mean that I am right and you are wrong, but it does mean that they don't prove your point.

EDIT: On rereading, I think I understand your inference. I agree that "organized intelligence" might be synonymous with "spirit", assuming you agree with Meaning #1 above. But that's still different from saying that "intelligence" is synonymous with "spirit", which is how I understand your claim.

Not all Intelligences are Spirit

But all

Spirit are Intelligences

is an assumption I have had.

but I am trying to learn here:o

I have seen other such equations used as

interchangeable and am guilty of this myself:mellow:

[Justice]

I see the term "organized intelligence" as being synonomous with "a spirit."

I would take this to mean that if a spirit could be unorganized it would become intelligence again.

Is this intelligence, or unorganized spirit, also considered spirit?

I don't know.

I like to think of the physical equivalents to help me understand.

A man (a spirit) is organized from physical matter (intelligence). Physical matter (intelligence) has always existed and cannot be made. But, that does not mean a man has always existed, but the elements he was made from always existed.

It's easier for me to see when I used the physical world as my guide, which is why I believe God made the physical world the way it is... to teach us of the spiritual.

[Vort]

A man (a spirit) is organized from physical matter (intelligence). Physical matter (intelligence) has always existed and cannot be made. But, that does not mean a man has always existed, but the elements he was made from always existed.

This is Vanhin's (and Elder McConkie's and Pres JFSmith's) model. The other model is:

A man (a spirit) consists of a physical body (spiritual body) and an animating spirit (intelligence) contained within. The physical (spiritual) body has is not a person without the animating essence of the spirit (intelligence).

[Vanhin]

This is Vanhin's (and Elder McConkie's and Pres JFSmith's) model. The other model is:

A man (a spirit) consists of a physical body (spiritual body) and an animating spirit (intelligence) contained within. The physical (spiritual) body has is not a person without the animating essence of the spirit (intelligence).

Oh nice. I think the second half of what you wrote fits Vanhin's model too. In fact I have been saying that throughout my posts. The animating essence is called, light of truth, or light of Christ; which can also be called "intelligence" or Spirit.

Divine energy, power, or influence that proceeds from God through Christ and gives life and light to all things. It is the law by which all things are governed in heaven and on earth (D&C 88: 6-13). See Guide to the Scriptures: Light, Light of Christ

The entire dynamic, which you just outlined, is the subject of D&C 93.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[Vort]

Oh nice. I think the second half of what you wrote fits Vanhin's model too. In fact I have been saying that throughout my posts. The animating essence is called, light of truth, or light of Christ; which can also be called "intelligence" or Spirit.

Divine energy, power, or influence that proceeds from God through Christ and gives life and light to all things. It is the law by which all things are governed in heaven and on earth (D&C 88: 6-13). See Guide to the Scriptures: Light, Light of Christ

So let me see if I understand your model correctly:

• A spirit is an object composed of a type of matter known as intelligence, aka spirit element.
• This spirit, formed of intelligence or spirit element, is then animated by intelligence, aka the light of Christ or the light of truth.

So a spirit is created from intelligence(1) and animated by intelligence(2). These two types of intelligence refer to completely different things.

[JohnnyRudick]

So let me see if I understand your model correctly:

• A spirit is an object composed of a type of matter known as intelligence, aka spirit element.
• This spirit, formed of intelligence or spirit element, is then animated by intelligence, aka the light of Christ or the light of truth.

So a spirit is created from intelligence(1) and animated by intelligence(2). These two types of intelligence refer to completely different things.

Huh:confused:

[Justice]

A man (a spirit) consists of a physical body (spiritual body) and an animating spirit (intelligence) contained within. The physical (spiritual) body has is not a person without the animating essence of the spirit (intelligence).

I don't necessarily know that "an animating spirit" is the same as "intelligence." I believe "an animating spirit" (or just a spirit) is organized from intelligence. As I said, I don't know whether or not if the "unorganized spirit" (or intelligence) can be classified as spirit or spirit element. However, I do know that intelligence is not "a spirit." Intelligence has to first be organized in order to become "a" spirit.

Is intelligence (or unorganized spirit) spirit element?" I don't know. I think there's a big difference between "spirit element" and "a spirit." Are both "spirit?" Perhaps in different ways.

Back to my example of man's physical body: It's like saying dust is "man" because man's physical body can be organized (and unorganized) from dust. Dust can be organized into so many other things... other than man. I'm not ready to agree or disagree.

I think perhaps you misunderstood what I wrote, or maybe I'm having trouble communicating something I don't fully understand.

Edited December 12, 2009 by Justice

[Vanhin]

So let me see if I understand your model correctly:

• A spirit is an object composed of a type of matter known as intelligence, aka spirit element.
• This spirit, formed of intelligence or spirit element, is then animated by intelligence, aka the light of Christ or the light of truth.

So a spirit is created from intelligence(1) and animated by intelligence(2). These two types of intelligence refer to completely different things.

I tend to be like Justice on this.

The spirit of man is an entity composed of spirit matter. I believe that the entity and the element is referred to in scripture as intelligence, and that it is something that "acts". There are varying degrees of intelligences, and they have the light of truth manifested to them, which gives them the ability to know the difference between good and evil. This light is also referred to in scripture as intelligence. God places these intelligences in spheres where they are free to make choices between good and evil. This is the agency of man. As intelligences act, by heeding the light of truth, they increase in this light, and progress as intelligences, towards having all intelligence, like God. By rejecting the light, man is condemned and does not progress.

I believe physical matter is something that is "acted upon". This mortal life represents another sphere where God has placed intelligences, to act for themselves, and gain tabernacles of flesh for themselves. The scriptures indicate that this is necessary for the fullness of joy. Here we are enticed by good and evil, and are free to choose according to our knowledge, which we have through the light of truth.

Amazingly, the Book of Mormon turns out to be a great resource for even this topic.

14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other. (2 Nephi 2:14,16)

There are things that act, and things that are acted upon. Intelligences act, and they know the right way to act because of intelligence, which is know as the light of truth (among other names); and they increase in this intelligence or light by heeding it, from sphere to sphere, until the perfect day.

I don't claim to fully understand all of these things. But that represents my understanding of the scriptures, that I have prayerfully poured over for a very long time.

In any case, the thing that I learn from this, is that men must heed the light of Christ, which will lead them to faith in Christ, and to repent of their sins, and to the remission of those sins through baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. And it doesn't end there. The light is the law by which all things are governed in heaven and on earth, and that as we continue to heed it, we will ultimately be exalted with God, who is our Father, and his Christ.

“The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.” (History of the Church, 6:310–12; capitalization modernized; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on Apr. 7, 1844, in Nauvoo, Illinois; reported by Wilford Woodruff, Willard Richards, Thomas Bullock, and William Clayton; see also appendix, page 562, item 3.)

Sincerely,

Vanhin

Edited December 12, 2009 by Vanhin

[Justice]

It's interesting to think about. We have been given our own little bit of physical element that obeys our every command. What we do with this little bit determines if we will have dominion over more... and how much more.