bytor2112 Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 As many know from past posts, I have been active in church since March of 2005. During this time I have met many sincere and very Spiritual people....many are now my close friends and some have served as roll models for me. Tonight I heard some very disturbing, distressing and just down right disgusting news. An older man in our Ward was recently arrested for molesting children....including his own niece. All three of his children come to our home for YSA/FHE. What is really distressing, is that this fellow was in the Bishopric when I first starting coming to church and he was later our Home Teacher and my sons Sunday School Teacher. How can anyone do those things and seem like they are so......."Christ like"? And how can anyone do this and not be .......terrified and (searching for words).....surely they must understand the depravity and despicable nature of these actions......while pretending to be something completely different. My head hurts and I feel sick inside........and just very sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deseretgov Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 How can anyone do those things and seem like they are so......."Christ like"? And how can anyone do this and not be .......terrified and (searching for words).....surely they must understand the depravity and despicable nature of these actions......while pretending to be something completely different.They find reasons to justify it. And after they have justified it they feel they can still be Christ like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john doe Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 Some, usually the ones you least suspect, are able to 'compartmentalize' their lives. They keep that ugly part separate from other things they do and are able to pull off the misdirection for years or even decades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mahone Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 Please bear in mind that he has only been arrested and from what you have said, not been found guilty yet. He may be innocent, unless he is known to have admitted it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taldarin Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 Sometimes good people take hard falls. Look what happened to David. How could a prophet-king so highly favored by God commit adultery and murder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elphaba Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 bytor, I think you once mentioned your own abusive childhood, so you know what a horrifying experience this is to a little child. I know I want to think my childhood will never be repeated on another, yet it is happening again right now, many times over. I can hardly stand that thought, and so I can only imagine what it is like for you to know these children so well and now know what happened to them. Your post made me very, very sad. Elphaba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 (edited) It can be very difficult not to judge others for their actions, and even harder to forgive them. When a person can truly pray and ask for people like this to be forgiven, that is when they truly forgive them. We had a similar situation in our ward. After about 3 months, the mother of the 2 young girls who were abused visited their abuser in prison and expressed her concern for him, and told him that she forgave him. The father told him he forgave him the first time he saw the man just days later. It took the mother longer. This couple was very close to me, and were examples of greatless like this many times over. They have since moved away, but it was clear that they had some things figured out that most people do not. This couple has 9 children. In Sunday School one time we were discussing proper methods of discipline that should be used with your children. About half way through the discussion about whether or not you should spank your children, this wonderful sister stood with a puzzled look on her face. She said, "I have been married 22 years and have never once heard [her husband] even raise his voice at our children." This was quite powerful for all listening, because it was one of those unwritten understandings everyone shared, that their children were the best of the best... all 9 of them. I know that on my journey to become more like my Savior, I must one day first become more like this man. And, I believe that's the greatest compliment anyone could give. Edited December 12, 2009 by Justice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeuroTypical Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.It really does mean what it says. Sorry you are having to learn that the hard way.Humans, for lack of a better term, suck. We're fallible, error-prone, agenda-driven mortals. This is something we do. Anyone who says otherwise is selling something.Humans don't deserve certain levels of trust. People who place high value in hero worship tend to get let down. And people who refuse to look at warning signs because someone holds a certain office, often get hurt.The church came to grips with this a while ago - you may notice all the windows on your classroom doors at church, and the 'no single brother teaching' policy. The same visibility is necessary everywhere. LM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleepless3977 Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 sorry i hit the wrong button and thanked Elphaba for the post when i was supposed to hit the quote button. i feel exactly the same having read your post as I had this situation happen in my ward growing up. Later on in life i took a job as a pyschologist treating borderline intellectually disabled pedophiles. I lasted 3 months before i quit, realising that it was a deadend job and that these people are really sick with an addiction that they can't treat. I really feel for you. Just be there for the kids is my advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elphaba Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 After about 3 months, the mother of the 2 young girls who were abused visited their abuser in prison and expressed her concern for him, and told him that she forgave him. The father told him he forgave him the first time he saw the man just days later.I find that troubling. I think it might display a lack of understanding of the magniturde of the pain of the abuse. I think it is absolutely wonderful the father never raised his voice to the children, truly. I think that is how it should be, and I think his children are very fortunate to have that. I'm just not sure you can forgive someone for something you don't comprehend, and I don't think you can comprehend what an abuser has done to your child only a few days afterward.Elphaba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maya Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 Yes it is amazing what people do. But we cant move in wilderness and pull cover over our family and shoot every trespasser... even though sometimes it would sound like the visest thign to do. Sometimes things grow to a LOT worse than what is the truth. Try to listen to find the truth in all information you get. Even higher authorities than bishops have been excommunicated for sexual things. Anyway so weird as it may sound some get in to this wheel without notising before the wheel goes too fast to jump off... Anyone here love to tickle little kids, so they giggle, so they almost cant breeth... that is where the abuse begins for many, so dont do it! Anyone love to tickle your wife even though she begs you to stopp.. watch it! Some men take gigling as an invitation and ignore what the mouth says. What .. tickling is just innocent fun... so is often abuse to begin with too! Just somewhere the pleasure is in the tickler instead for the one who is beeing tickled.... and some are judged without ever doing anyuthign for pleasure... and they all think he did it for pleasure. This is sooo sad! Like I said so many times Church should adress even more strongly on this at least with the youth so they NEVER would fall in to this pit. For those already fallen there is not anything that can be done 99% has already lost it all. BUT it is worse in the Judgement day unless these sinns are taken care of. I believe that there often is forgiveness to find in gospell on both sides. Actually the only thing that cures is the gospel! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnn727 Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 Unfortunatly people are human even LDS people, this happens throughout the world. It is terrible in any case but seems like more of a betrayel when it comes from a person that was in an authority position. One of the missions of the Church is "to perfect the Saints' some need more perfecting than others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dravin Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 (edited) I'm just not sure you can forgive someone for something you don't comprehend, and I don't think you can comprehend what an abuser has done to your child only a few days afterward.ElphabaCould you ever? I don't think full understanding is required for forgiveness, if it were there would be a lot of circumstances in which forgiveness would be all but impossible. Particularly when you are forgiving for something that didn't directly happen to you. That said, are they really forgiving on behalf of the abused? They're forgiving the abuser for the pain he has inflicted upon them as those who love the abused, and that pain is fully understood. The abused will have to come to their own understanding and forgiveness.Also, It wouldn't surprise me if they are still working on complete forgiveness and the expression of forgiveness was a step towards realizing complete forgiveness as opposed to a statement that the process was complete. Edited December 12, 2009 by Dravin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havejoy Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 This happened to one of my children 23 years ago and I am still working on forgiving the man. I think sometimes I have forgiven him and then I read about another child being molested and the anger comes in waves again. I'd feel better if the people who do these kinds of things would be kept in prison forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairChild Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 I think it is one thing to forgive or not forgive an abuser. It is not connected with allowing an abuser to continue the abuse or preventing an abuser from abusing again. The primary goal should be to stop abuse whenever possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairChild Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 Evil loves to hide in darkness and secrets. I think that is why it took so long for this to come to light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maya Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 I think it is one thing to forgive or not forgive an abuser. It is not connected with allowing an abuser to continue the abuse or preventing an abuser from abusing again. The primary goal should be to stop abuse whenever possible.And it wont stop by making the penalty higher and detesting and separating those who have done so (except in the VERY bad cases). As unbelievable as it is some do it again and again.. just like rapist... WHAT is wrong with some people!But when people who have not done anything in over 5 years and tried to make it all good and looked for healing to everyone, especially the offer and yet are punished and handled, as if it had happened yesterday.. that is nothing, but hate and prejudice....not saying they shouldnt get any penalty ever but those men have got their penalty already and IF they are real men they will want to do the time too if that is what is expected. Only problem with that is that that may make them too unable to take care of themselves or family... so who will take care of them... state, community will pay.Very difficult question. In many cases things like this could be taken care of in a less distructive way... but not in ALL cases.Leaders of boys and girls should be able to make a such good connection with the kids that such things would come out. We ahd an ugly case wher the girl moved to the leader. It too was a schok to everybody. He too was one of the leaders adn had been for years... so sad. In his case there was no rependance in teh picture... he plain did not understand what he did wrong.... like I said there are cases and there are cases... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeuroTypical Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 Interesting tidbit: For mormons who commit a serious felony against a child, a permanent note may be affixed to that member's record. That annotation is permanent, unless a member of the 1st presidency asks it to be removed. It doesn't matter how much repenting you do or how good a life you live after that annotation - it follows you for your entire earthly probation. Perhaps the brethren understand about recidivism rates of child sex offenders? LM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maya Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 Interesting tidbit: For mormons who commit a serious felony against a child, a permanent note may be affixed to that member's record. That annotation is permanent, unless a member of the 1st presidency asks it to be removed. It doesn't matter how much repenting you do or how good a life you live after that annotation - it follows you for your entire earthly probation.Perhaps the brethren understand about recidivism rates of child sex offenders?LMYes and that is good when it is serious... but what is seriuos in this case? Well who ever has doen anything it will follow them the reat of their life weather it is marked or not. I suoppose it si right thowards the person but what about his kids and wife? Or does it just serve them right too? ... Like I said... feet in the concreet and hands tied and over board... better dead than life without life... easier for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mahone Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 Perhaps the brethren understand about recidivism rates of child sex offenders?LMThey also understand the legal/press issues involved in allowing someone who has committed this type of crime to be allowed to work with children in the church, hence the mark on their record to stop this happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 (edited) They understood the weight of the offense. I spoke with him many times about it. He just seemed to think there was something wrong with the person who did it or it wouldn't have happened. Edited December 13, 2009 by Justice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeuroTypical Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 I'm confused - can anyone consider a circumstance where someone might do something like this and everything is right with them? Not sure what sticking a "just" in front of "something wrong with the person" is supposed to be saying there... Yes, just about all child sex offenders have some sort of serious unresolved trauma in their lives. Often, they were child victims themselves. Understanding this reality can help people forgive. But that word "just" sort of worries me. Does it mean: "Oh, that's ok - that's just what Bob does - he's just got something wrong with him - pay it no mind." That's sort of a way to brush aside the issue (and the victims as well)... LM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 (edited) No, it's a "I'm not going to doom him to an eternity in hell because of what he did. I hope he will repent and be forgiven." He "just" seemed to think that this man is a child of God, regardless of what he has done, and he has a chance to be forgiven, and it's between the offender and God, not between him and the man. I realize the seriousness of the crime. It's not an attempt to brush it aside, and it wasn't for them. They prosecuted to the full extent of the law. The man told me he did so so the man could receive his just punishment here, and have an opportunity to pay the utmost farthing and repent before he meets his maker. It wasn't easy for them. They just did what they believed was right. Everyone thought the man was going to run away, maybe to Mexico. But, he didn't. He showed up to every court appointment, openly admitted what he did and gave the police the evidence they needed to convict him with... evidence they couldn't find. He went to jail 10 years longer because of the extra evidence he gave the police. Edited December 13, 2009 by Justice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maya Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 No, it's a "I'm not going to doom him to an eternity in hell because of what he did. I hope he will repent and be forgiven." He "just" seemed to think that this man is a child of God, regardless of what he has done, and he has a chance to be forgiven, and it's between the offender and God, not between him and the man.I realize the seriousness of the crime. It's not an attempt to brush it aside, and it wasn't for them. They prosecuted to the full extent of the law. The man told me he did so so the man could receive his just punishment here, and have an opportunity to pay the utmost farthing and repent before he meets his maker.It wasn't easy for them. They just did what they believed was right.Everyone thought the man was going to run away, maybe to Mexico. But, he didn't. He showed up to every court appointment, openly admitted what he did and gave the police the evidence they needed to convict him with... evidence they couldn't find. He went to jail 10 years longer because of the extra evidence he gave the police.Just what I am talking about Justice! And then there are deniers who would never say they done a thing that is wrong. And those are a totally different casse. And there also are those who dont wait for someone to tell what they did, but stop it years before anyone gets to know even go tell themselves, or wait for a good possibility to go tell like the kids getting old enough to survive the 10 years he will sit in, teh wife having at least a lod so she can support her and kids while he is gone! then it is totally an other thing allows the society a man like that move back to his family? Maybe they ahve to move... but the record is still there and soem people keep an eye on the records and theya re stampled again in the new place.If the guy confesses and actually wants to deal with it here.. do people think he still could fall for it again?? I dont think so! The world is of different opinion I know....Anyway an other thing... it is proved that eating meat is very bad for some people they get agressive... so how about this behavious can it be because of wrong nurishement, or hormonal disorder? They say traumas can do that ... uh? I agree with LM on the traumas. All too much is put on traumas.. poor people... uh! Stupidity can be a case in many. Even if a child shows marks of sesxuality it dont mean one should go and experiment with a child! Some men just cant get it that a child is a sexual beeing, and even though some things feel good for the kid it dont mean one should satisfie a child in that manner! And the play tends to get wilder and wilder unless one has power to stop oneself. Child cant understand that there is somethign wrong in it... the man maybe dont even notice it before it it too late! Thank God for men that are able to put a line where it should be, even if it means to push the kid from him and clairly establish the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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