Authority

[Ray]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain+Nov 15 2005, 10:11 PM-->

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 15 2005, 02:49 PM

Or in other words, while I can see how you may actually have authority to officiate in your church, because the members of your church do have the power to authorize people to act as leaders in their behalf, I have neither seen nor heard any evidence from you or anyone else to suggest or explain how you (or your church) received your authority from God or our Lord Jesus Christ.

Most Protestants do not see apostolic succession as God's plan.

Of course they don’t. If they did, they would realize that they don’t have any authority from God. They must have some other reasoning, and we [LDS] believe that reasoning is at variance with anything and everything recorded in the scriptures showing how God gives authority to Man.

And btw, please notice that I’m not calling you a bad person, and I’m not even saying that you are doing a bad thing. I’m simply saying that I disagree with that reasoning, and I don’t see how that reasoning can be supported through the scriptures.

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Nov 15 2005, 10:11 PM

LDS theologians look at the failures of Catholic church history and see the prophesied apostasy. Protestants simply see the failure of men.

The failure of men to do what, though? For one thing, I say the failure to abide by the counsel of God and those who had the authority of God to teach the true gospel, substituting their own ideas in its place. And as I have said, I see no justification in the scriptures to support what people do when they presume to have the authority to officially declare what the true gospel really is, and administer the true ordinances thereof.

<!--QuoteBegin-prisonchaplain@Nov 15 2005, 10:11 PM

Ironically, one understanding of the word "apostle" is missionary.  They were the ones to go out to other lands and spread the gospel, planting churches, building God's kingdom.  They did not hold positions of grand administrative power, but rather, were privileged to walk with Jesus, and to be on the front-lines of evangelism after the ascension.

And as I said, I see this differently. I say that the apostles of our Lord then, and the apostles of our Lord now, do “hold positions of grand administrative power”, which is clearly evidenced by the scriptures which show that our Lord gave Peter the keys of the kingdom, with the power to bind in heaven what he [Peter] bound on Earth. And there are also some scriptures which show that the apostles were the ones who directed the work of our Lord back then, just as apostles do now.

But that is not to say that other members of the Church have no authority whatsoever to proclaim the gospel. For instance, I consider what I am saying to you right now more along the lines of “warning my neighbors”, which I have been authorized to do with anyone and everyone in the world, but I do not have the authority to build up churches unto the Lord or administer in any of the ordinances without approval or authorization from those who have higher authority [or more authorization] to direct the work that our Lord wants done.

Or in other words, if you were ever inclined to join the church of Christ because you agree with what I say, or if you were ever to tell me that you wanted to become a member of the Church, I would advise those who have been appointed and authorized to direct the work of the Lord so that they can set up appointments with you to teach you the true gospel of our Lord, and administer the ordinances which are required for new members. And if you were to tell them that you already knew everything you need to know to join the church, because you had already accepted what I said, it really wouldn’t matter, although it would make it easier for you to accept what they said if what I said was in agreement with what they had to teach you.

And btw, when I joined the Church, I had already been baptized by my father, who was a preacher at another church of a different religion. And I accepted the idea that I needed to be baptized by someone with authority because I could then see that my father did not have authority from God, despite his good intentions.

Originally posted by prisonchaplain+Nov 15 2005, 10:11 PM-->

So where do we think we get God's approval to do gospel work?  We see it in Jesus commands to spread his teachings.  These commands were given to the apostles, yes.  But, also to the 72.  And, ultimately, all believers were to spread the Word.

I think I’ve pretty much explained my views on this already. Yes, our Lord does want all members of His church to share the gospel with others, and I can show that He wants us to do that by showing you some scriptures where He and His prophets have said that, but only the members of the Church who have certain keys of authority are authorized to administer the ordinances which are required for those who want to join the Church.

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Nov 15 2005, 10:11 PM

Bottom line variance here:  LDS theologians look for the authority to do gospel work, whereas Protestants--especially evangelicals--would consider a sin for any believer NOT to do gospel work.

LDS also believe it would be wrong not to share the gospel message with others, but as I said, simply being a member of the Church does not grant someone all of the authority necessary to do the work of our Lord.

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Nov 15 2005, 10:11 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Nov 15 2005, 02:49 PM

And btw, nobody can receive authority by simply reading about how other people received their authority either, so quoting from the Bible which shows that Jesus Christ gave His authority to His apostles doesn't mean that He or they gave their authority to you.

If Jesus ONLY gave his authority to the apostles, you'd be right. However, Jesus gives authority to all his followers. He sends out the 72. He obviously blesses the efforts of the woman at the well (brand new to the faith mind you) to go and tell her village. He sends a man delivered from demons back to his city to spread the word. We see Jesus bestowing priesthood responsibilities to all believers.

Please notice how the examples you cited are in agreement with what I have been saying.

Yes, our Lord has authorized all of the members of His church to declare the true gospel, but that doesn’t mean that our Lord has given all of the members of His church all of His authorization to administer all of the ordinances, or to make sure that the true gospel is taught to an “investigator” before joining the Church, and it also doesn’t mean that our Lord has authorized everybody on Earth to declare what they believe the true gospel is.

Heh, if more people were more willing to learn the true gospel, instead of declaring what they believe the true gospel is, we would have even less of this confusion that we still have in so-called “Christendom”.

[prisonchaplain]

No, I don't think the source is Barna. I read Barna and think their stuff is pretty fair. I believe that the 500 million figure comes from a theologian named Harvey Cox. There are other estimates as well that go up to about 430 million, but others that go as low as 100.

I had heard this figure during my seminary years. I thought the professor said Barna. As you'll see below, I was close, but wrong:

Status of Global Mission, 2001, in context of 20th and 21st centuries

MID 2001

EVANGELICALS 657.163.000

PENTECOSTALS 533.581.000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

David B. Barrett, a contributing editor, is Hon. Research Advisor, United Bible Societies, and Research Professor of Missiometrics at Regent University, Virginia Beach. Todd M. Johnson, a YWAM missionary, is director of the World Evangelization Research Center in Richmond, Virginia, and an adjunct professor at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School for the Perspectives on the World Christian Movement course.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Source: International Bulletin of Missionary Research, January 2001. David B. Barrett & Todd M. Johnson.

Now Regent University is a charismatic institution, and I am almost positive that "Pentecostal" here conflates classic Pentecostalism with the more modern charismatic variations. By way of disclosure, I would also point out that my professor was somewhat skeptical of Barret's methodology, and believed the numbers to be high. Again, though, the complaints should be an argument over methodology. As for those who site this source--those Pentecostal organizations you mentioned...most leaders of organizations gravitate to those statistics that provide encouragement to those they lead.

But, Barna does support my contention about the wide variance of belief that is inherent in a fractured Christianity.

Barna found that 34% of Mormons answer his questions in a way that could be defined as "born again." His questions were theological, not mere self-identification. Yet, only one percent would be defined as evangelical. His report was interesting SNOW. WARNING--BLATANT PROMOTION: So, see my new poll out today (11/18/2005).

[roman]

snow-----outshined

I sorry for not getting back to the both of you on this---you know job and life stuff. But anyway I do want to respond to the both of you.

Please understand my position and here it is AGAIN----I do agree with the both of you that today, the average mormon does accept others outside the lds church as Christian-----BUT that has not always been the case. I believe that in the past some lds leaders taught and believed differently and that some--all be it a small minority still believe that to be so.

To better understand your position, I will give the full quotes I'm using as reference and you explain to me exactly what was meant.

1. BY---JoD 1854-56, 8:171------" The Christian world, so called are heathens as to their knowledge of the salvation of God"

2. Orson Pratt------ The Seer 1853-54 p255----" All other churches are entirely destitute of all authority from God: and any person who receives Baptism, or the LORDs supper from their hands will highly offend God, for he looks upon them as the most corrupt of all people"

3. Bruce McConkie doctrinal NT Commentary vol.2 "mormons have the onlypure and perfect Christianity now on the earth....... All other systems of religion are false........ if it had not been for JS and the restoration there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside the COJCOLDS"

4.George Q. CannonGospel Truth 1987 p.324 [ I hope this is current enough for you]....... " The various organizations which are called churches throghtout

Christendom, though differening in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon. God is not the founder of them"

The last quote was in 1987, giving some credence that what I'm saying has shifted down thru history and is still believed by some----some that is my point that some lds don't consider others outside the lds church Christian.

Please address each quote separately and explain how that when you read these quotes you can still say and make me believe that someone like me who outright rejects--JS---BoM and almost everything considered lds that at the end of my life I will spend eternity with the average lds in what is called Heaven--as long as I put my trust in Jesus. The facts are you can't do that---but go ahead and try.

Please forgo the ---not official doctrine, speaking as a man----not officail this or that---just deal with the quotes and explain each one so that I can see where you are coming from

BTW---have a Happy Thanksgiving

[Outshined]

I can see why you would want to avoid discussion as to whether any of these was doctrine, as none are.

I have the book by BRM with that title, but can find no such quote that there is no salvation outside the LDS Church. However, as you've seen, I did find his entry in Mormon Doctrine (which defines his beliefs on the Church) where he says exactly the opposite.

The Brigham Young quote (from the JoD ) does not say anyone is not Christian, only that their knowledge is lacking.

The Orson Pratt quote (from the Seer, which he was eventually ordered by the Church to stop publishing) also does not say they are not Christian or saved, only that they "offend God" by going to other churches.

The Cannon quote is the same, it does not say anyone is "not Christian". By the way, George Q. Cannon died in 1901, the book was printed in '87.

What we see is strong statements made by men over a century ago that, like it or not, were not doctrinal, but presented as personal opinion. None say non-LDS are not Christians.

If you look at contemporary statements, you'll find many of other churches who say Latter-day Saints are "not saved" or Christians, while you'd be hard-pressed to find any LDS who'll say the same about others.

[roman]

Outshined;

I guess I will have to leave this thought from your thinking-----A person from your perspective is a Christian--who knows nothing of God ---- is an offender of God----are heathens---are a corrupt people--- are of Babylon---- have a false church---and God has nothing to do with them----that is what i get from you, your diffination of a Christian

I notice also you hang your argument on not finding the words----"not a Christian" which is very weak and intellectually dishonest on your part. I believe you are completely ignoring the obvious and swiping things away with the ---"personal opinion thing"----like I sensed you would---and not all the quotes were 100 years old---the last was from 1987---which you labeled as 100 years old.

I cannot continue to discuss a topic with someone so unwilling to see the obvious---and to me the obvious is this----in times past lds leaders considered all other believers outside of the mormon church as ----unsaved heathens-------but that idea has changed in the lds church----my point

[Outshined]

Originally posted by roman@Nov 19 2005, 08:15 AM

I guess I will have to leave this thought from your thinking-----A person from your perspective is a Christian--who knows nothing of God ---- is an offender of God----are heathens---are a corrupt people--- are of Babylon---- have a false church---and God has nothing to do with them----that is what i get from you, your diffination of a Christian

You are interpreting these old quotes as saying you aren't a Christian; that's your choice, though none said such a thing.

I notice also you hang your argument on not finding the words----"not a Christian" which is very weak and intellectually dishonest on your part. I believe you are completely ignoring the obvious and swiping things away with the ---"personal opinion thing"----like I sensed you would---and not all the quotes were 100 years old---the last was from 1987---which you labeled as 100 years old.

I believe your overwhelming desire to find the sentiment is intellectually dishonest. What is obvious is that none of these men said what you want them to have. You try to interpret what was said so long ago the way you want it to be. And George Q. Cannon died in 1901; how could he say anything in 1987? That would be interesting, to say the least.

I cannot continue to discuss a topic with someone so unwilling to see the obvious---and to me the obvious is this----in times past lds leaders considered all other believers outside of the mormon church as ----unsaved heathens-------but that idea has changed in the lds church----my point

It's "obvious" to you because you want it so badly to justify persecution against Latter-day Saints. It is equally obvious that you can not discuss it reasonably if it does not go "your way". I recognize your opinion and your interpretation of what you've read, but disagree with it.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Outshined@Nov 19 2005, 06:52 AM

I have the book by BRM with that title, but can find no such quote that there is no salvation outside the LDS Church. However, as you've seen, I did find his entry in Mormon Doctrine (which defines his beliefs on the Church) where he says exactly the opposite.

Outshined,

To be fair to Roman, many of BRM's books have been altered in subsequent publications. I wouldn't be very surprised to find that this one too was changed from it's initial publication.

Roman, do you have a date of publication for your quote? Maybe you two can compare dates and clear this up?

[roman]

Originally posted by Outshined+Nov 19 2005, 09:49 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-roman@Nov 19 2005, 08:15 AM

I guess I will have to leave this thought from your thinking-----A person from your perspective is a Christian--who knows nothing of God ---- is an offender of God----are heathens---are a corrupt people--- are of Babylon---- have a false church---and God has nothing to do with them----that is what i get from you, your diffination of a Christian

You are interpreting these old quotes as saying you aren't a Christian; that's your choice, though none said such a thing.

I notice also you hang your argument on not finding the words----"not a Christian" which is very weak and intellectually dishonest on your part. I believe you are completely ignoring the obvious and swiping things away with the ---"personal opinion thing"----like I sensed you would---and not all the quotes were 100 years old---the last was from 1987---which you labeled as 100 years old.

I believe your overwhelming desire to find the sentiment is intellectually dishonest. What is obvious is that none of these men said what you want them to have. You try to interpret what was said so long ago the way you want it to be. And George Q. Cannon died in 1901; how could he say anything in 1987? That would be interesting, to say the least.

I cannot continue to discuss a topic with someone so unwilling to see the obvious---and to me the obvious is this----in times past lds leaders considered all other believers outside of the mormon church as ----unsaved heathens-------but that idea has changed in the lds church----my point

It's "obvious" to you because you want it so badly to justify persecution against Latter-day Saints. It is equally obvious that you can not discuss it reasonably if it does not go "your way". I recognize your opinion and your interpretation of what you've read, but disagree with it.

←

what ever---your denying the obvious---because you are despareate to keep lds history under the table

me persecuting the lds church---yes that is right you poor lds you have it so bad, because I have a different opinion and interpert the evidence and facts as truth and you put the spin on them to justify a weak postion------where are your quotes that i ask for---you source------you got onto me when I didn't produce immediatly---as usuall you lds what a different standard---produce the modern day quotes of you leaders that say I'm a Christain even though I deny JS, the lds restoration theory --the BoM and that you and i will spend eternity together with God-------when you do that then we may continue

[roman]

Originally posted by Jason+Nov 19 2005, 09:53 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Outshined@Nov 19 2005, 06:52 AM

I have the book by BRM with that title, but can find no such quote that there is no salvation outside the LDS Church. However, as you've seen, I did find his entry in Mormon Doctrine (which defines his beliefs on the Church) where he says exactly the opposite.

Outshined,

To be fair to Roman, many of BRM's books have been altered in subsequent publications. I wouldn't be very surprised to find that this one too was changed from it's initial publication.

Roman, do you have a date of publication for your quote? Maybe you two can compare dates and clear this up?

←

Jason the book I site on the George O. Cannon is ---" Gospel truth-----1987 The

The BRM is from a 1977 edition of Mormon doctrine

[Outshined]

Originally posted by roman@Nov 19 2005, 10:14 AM

what ever---your denying the obvious---because you are despareate to keep lds history under the table

Yeah, that's it; maybe it's just that I can read...

me persecuting the lds church---yes that is right you poor lds you have it so bad, because I have a different opinion and interpert the evidence and facts as truth and you put the spin on them to justify a weak postion------where are your quotes that i ask for---you source------you got onto me when I didn't produce immediatly---as usuall you lds what a different standard---produce the modern day quotes of you leaders that say I'm a Christain even though I deny JS, the lds restoration theory --the BoM and that you and i will spend eternity together with God-------when you do that then we may continue

←

First, no one accused you of persecuting the Church.

Second, the weak position here is yours. You have to dig through non-canonical books for a handful of quotes from men who have been dead for over a hundred years, then you have to put your own interpretation on them to make your point. "Evidence and facts"? More like personal opinion. You can't produce one quote from any leader that says the LDS Church does not consider you a Christian. Why? Because they don't exist.

No one has ever said you would spend eternity with the Saints with God if you aren't a member; that's your twist. The Church does teach that you have salvation and are a Christian. I suggest you gain an understanding of the doctrines.

You still don't even realize that George Q. Cannon died 104 years ago... B)

[Outshined]

Originally posted by Jason@Nov 19 2005, 09:53 AM

To be fair to Roman, many of BRM's books have been altered in subsequent publications.  I wouldn't be very surprised to find that this one too was changed from it's initial publication. 

←

You never know, but I have provided quotes from McConkie showing his views on salvation and Christianity, and they are clear.

[Outshined]

Since Roman apparently missed it the first time:

From Mormon Doctrine:

Salvation

Unconditional or general salvation, that which comes by grace alone without obedience to gospel law, consists in the mere fact of being resurrected. In this sense salvation is synonymous with immortality; it is the inseparable connection of body and spirit so that the resurrected personage lives forever.This kind of salvation eventually will come to all mankind, excepting only the sons of perdition. In their case, after their resurrection, "they shall return again to their own place" (D. & C. 88:32); after coming forth in immortality and standing before the judgment bar, because they are "filthy still, ... they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end." (2 Ne. 9:13-16.) They are resurrected but they are not redeemed from the devil. "They shall be as though there had been no redemption made; for they cannot be redeemed according to God's justice; and they cannot die, seeing there is no more corruption." (Alma 12:18.) Thus it is that the Lord "saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him." (D. & C. 76:40-48.) All others are saved from death, hell, the devil, and endless torment. (2 Ne. 9:18-27.)

No mention of non-LDS not being "saved".

Also, from the same book:

Christians

True believers in Christ, both in America among the Nephites and in the old world beginning in apostolic times, were called Christians. (Alma 46:13-16; 48:10; Acts 11:26; 26:28; 1 Pet. 4:16.) Probably the name was applied first in derision, but it found ready acceptance among the members of the Church because they rejoice in the privilege of taking upon themselves "the name of Christ, or Christians" (Alma 46:15.)As the day of the great apostasy set in, the term Christian continued to be applied to the supposed followers of Christ, even though in reality they had departed from the true doctrines. Today those who purport to believe in Christ though they may not actually accept him as the Son of God, are called Christians.

No denial of salvation outside the LDS Church, no denial of the name "Christian".

[roman]

[No one has ever said you would spend eternity with the Saints with God if you aren't a member; that's your twist. The Church does teach that you have salvation and are a Christian. I suggest you gain an understanding of the doctrines.

You still don't even realize that George Q. Cannon died 104 years ago... B)

←

G.O. Cannon may have been dead for 104 years but his writings and sayings are still in the lds book store in the 70-and 80s which for me says that some or part of the lds church still backs his opinion.

Still no quotes---from you---Am I suprised? absolutly not. that is why I don't understand your side----with no quotes or leading authority to back you--you seem to be taking a position that you can't back.

I know that there are essentials to lds salvation that i don't meet---yet you are trying to make the case for otherwise,that I will still make Heaven----the lower one away from God the Father------

Is my water baptism ligitimate as lds say that water baptism is required for salvation.?Now I also realise that you use the word salvation different that I do---you believe all will be saved except the sons of perdition------and it is in that since that you consider me saved and a Christian-----what your really dodging is the exaltation belief you have and becoming a god---something you think you will obtain----but never a person outside of the lds church

[Outshined]

G.O. Cannon may have been dead for 104 years but his writings and sayings are still in the lds book store in the 70-and 80s which for me says that some or part of the lds church still backs his opinion.

Or that we just don't bury the writings of the dead. Some would accuse us of "hiding" something if we did, wouldn't they?

Still no quotes---from you---Am I suprised? absolutly not. that is why I don't understand your side----with no quotes or leading authority to back you--you seem to be taking a position that you can't back.

You have a very short memory. Check the post above yours; it's a repeat of something you avoided once before. B) You make an assertion with no basis in fact, and ask for quotes contradicting it. Why would today's church even make an issue of your salvation or Christianity when it believes in both? You have an issue with it, not the LDS.

I know that there are essentials to lds salvation that i don't meet---yet you are trying to make the case for otherwise,that I will still make Heaven----the lower one away from God the Father------

Wrong. All have salvation. Read the quotes I gave you.

Is  my water baptism ligitimate as lds say that water baptism is required for salvation.?Now I also realise that you use the word salvation different that I do---you believe all will be saved except the sons of perdition------and it is in that since that you consider me saved and a Christian-----what your really dodging is the exaltation belief you have and becoming a god---something you think you will obtain----but never a person outside of the lds church

Again, you illustrate a basic lack of understanding of LDS doctrines. Try All About Mormons to start. http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons

The only thing you've gotten right so far: exaltation only comes through the LDS Church. B)

[roman]

outshined;

On another note, how come when I give quotes of lds leaders---they are old dead guys---but when you use them--its okay because they speak doctrine and are clear -------I smell the ole lds double standard

[Outshined]

Originally posted by roman@Nov 19 2005, 11:51 AM

outshined;

On another note, how come when I give quotes of lds leaders---they are old dead guys---but when you use them--its okay because they speak doctrine and are clear -------I smell the ole lds double standard

←

When it's doctrine, it's doctrine. When it's opinion, it's opinion. Very simple. B)

Plus the quotes I gave you are clear; they require no "interpretation".

those who purport to believe in Christ though they may not actually accept him as the Son of God, are called Christians.

[Snow]

Originally posted by roman@Nov 19 2005, 01:51 AM

snow-----outshined

  I sorry for not getting back to the both of you on this---you know job and life stuff. But anyway I do want to respond to the both of you.

Please understand my position and here it is AGAIN----I do agree with the both of you that today, the average mormon does accept others outside the lds church as Christian-----BUT that has not always been the case. I believe that in the past some lds leaders taught and believed differently and that some--all be it a small minority still believe that to be so.

3. Bruce McConkie    doctrinal NT Commentary vol.2  "mormons have the onlypure and perfect Christianity now on the earth....... All other systems of religion are false........ if it had not been for JS and the restoration there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside the COJCOLDS"

BTW---have a Happy Thanksgiving

←

Roman,

I know you don't have the book in question so you much be relying on what you read somewhere on the internet. This is how dishonest critics operate = with disregard for the truth.

1. It sounds like what you are trying to quote is not from the NT Commentary, but rather from Mormon Doctrine by B. McConkie of possibly Doctrines of Salvations (JFS) neither of which are doctrinal but rather are explanation of what the authors think is doctrinal.

2. You misquoted it anyway.

3. If you have read the full entry you would have seen that the author says there is 1. a universal salvation that comes by grace alone and applies to all mankind. 2. a conditional salvation that comes by grace and obedience and 3. a fuller salvation that we typically refer to exaltation.

Had you (or your source) not misquoted the material you would see that the material argues against your point, not in favor of your point.

[Jason]

Im joining late guys, but have you clarified the difference between the General Salvation given to all regardless of beliefs, and the status of Exaltation reserved only for the faithful LDS?

Im just wondering if Roman understands that?

Also, Outshined, your quote from BRM used the word "purport" when offering Christians the title of Christians. That word could and probably is interpreted by most non-LDS as "they're not really Christians like we are".

Perhaps you should be more sensitive to the "minor" words used by BRM. It's pretty clear to me that he's no fan of Christianity in general (outside of Mormonism that is).

[Outshined]

Im joining late guys, but have you clarified the difference between the General Salvation given to all regardless of beliefs, and the status of Exaltation reserved only for the faithful LDS? 

Im just wondering if Roman understands that? 

Same here.

Also, Outshined, your quote from BRM used the word "purport" when offering Christians the title of Christians.  That word could and probably is interpreted by most non-LDS as "they're not really Christians like we are". 

Perhaps you should be more sensitive to the "minor" words used by BRM.  It's pretty clear to me that he's no fan of Christianity in general (outside of Mormonism that is).

←

That would be the problem, they see him saying "those who claim to be Christians" are considered so, and think it means that they are not. If BRM was as deeply devoted to the LDS faith as he seemed, then it's little wonder he would come across that way; I'm sure he wanted everyone to find the truth in the LDS Church.

[roman]

Roman,

I know you don't have the book in question so you much be relying on what you read somewhere on the internet. This is how dishonest critics operate = with disregard for the truth.

1. It sounds like what you are trying to quote is not from the NT Commentary, but rather from Mormon Doctrine by B. McConkie of possibly Doctrines of Salvations (JFS) neither of which are doctrinal but rather are explanation of what the authors think is doctrinal.

2. You misquoted it anyway.

3. If you have read the full entry you would have seen that the author says there is 1. a universal salvation that comes by grace alone and applies to all mankind. 2. a conditional salvation that comes by grace and obedience and 3. a fuller salvation that we typically refer to exaltation.

Had you (or your source) not misquoted the material you would see that the material argues against your point, not in favor of your point.

1. How do you know I don't have the book----prove your claim. I'm not dishonest. that is just how you want to paint me---your opinion to save face.

Next you say you don't know what book I'm quoting from---but know that I'm quoting it wrong. My turn to role eyes and laugh out loud. For you to know that you must have the correct quote----so give it--all of it Its surrounding context---------

To much assumption on your part to take you serious---Now I have asked you both for quotes of todays leaders---since you hate old dead people, to say

I can deny JS--BoM----and be next to Heaven right beside you for eternity--------you can't do it that was a retorical question, so don't bother.

It just seems to me that if you claim what you do---you could give me a GBH quote right off the top of your head. Anyway a Heaven with people you have spent a life time hating God and his church---is not the Heaven I'm thinking about---but you are. The Bible in no way teaches universal salvation of exaltation---those are strickly made up stuff in the lds church.

[Outshined]

Here's an easier way of lookng at it. If, as you claim, we don't consider you Christian, you should be able to readily provide a quote from the prophet.

As I've already pointed out, why should the Church address what we take for granted, that other churches are Christian also? You're asking for a quote about something that has never been an issue to us, which is silly.

Your opinions on the Church and the Bible have been noted , but I'll repeat the suggestion that you actually read up on our doctrines. B)

[BenRaines]

It is interesting of all the evidence that has been supposedly found showing how bad Joseph Smith was and that he plagarized the Book of Mormon and his writings of the records found in the mummy that are the Book of Abraham. All that being false as so many claim and yet there is no real proof. If it were so the church would be destroyed.

Those who oppose the church will always exist and claims false or otherwise will always exist but the truth will go on.

Why can't we all just get along and the day will come when those who doubt or don't know will know the Lord. :)

[Snow]

Originally posted by roman@Nov 19 2005, 12:46 PM

Roman,

I know you don't have the book in question so you much be relying on what you read somewhere on the internet. This is how dishonest critics operate = with disregard for the truth.

1. It sounds like what you are trying to quote is not from the NT Commentary, but rather from Mormon Doctrine by B. McConkie of possibly Doctrines of Salvations (JFS) neither of which are doctrinal but rather are explanation of what the authors think is doctrinal.

2. You misquoted it anyway.

3. If you have read the full entry you would have seen that the author says there is 1. a universal salvation that comes by grace alone and applies to all mankind. 2. a conditional salvation that comes by grace and obedience and 3. a fuller salvation that we typically refer to exaltation.

Had you (or your source) not misquoted the material you would see that the material argues against your point, not in favor of your point.

1. How do you know I don't have the book----prove your claim. I'm not dishonest. that is just how you want to paint me---your opinion to save face.

Next you say you don't know what book I'm quoting from---but know that I'm quoting it wrong.  My turn to role eyes and laugh out loud. For you to know that you must have the correct quote----so give it--all of it Its surrounding context---------

To much assumption on your part to take you serious---Now I have asked you both for quotes of todays leaders---since you hate old dead people, to say

I can deny JS--BoM----and be next to Heaven right beside you for eternity--------you can't do it that was a retorical question, so don't bother.

It just seems to me that if you claim what you do---you could give me a GBH quote right off the top of your head. Anyway a Heaven with people you have spent a life time hating God and his church---is not the Heaven I'm thinking about---but you are. The Bible in no way teaches universal salvation of exaltation---those are strickly made up stuff in the lds church.

←

Why you do this to yourself I'll never understand but all right - I'll play your game, though I warn you, it is a road we've been down many times. You post something that is blatantly wrong. You get caught, you try and argue your way out it. I insult you, you go away mad and don't show up for three weeks.

---You imply that you actually have the book in question by dismissing my allegation that you don't as so wildly assumptive so as to be laughable. The simple truth, as I will now show is that you don't have the book and you and I know it. Here goes.

1. You don't say you have the book, you only dismissively dismiss my claim that you don't without ever saying directly that you do or you don't.

2. I have the book from which you really took the quote, Mormon Doctrine. Mormon Doctrine lists the source of the information to be Doctrines of Salvation. I have both books.

3. Outshined has the book you pretend you quoted and he can't find the quote in there.

4. You dismissed my claim that you quoted incorrectly but in fact you did quote incorrectly. Bruce R. McConkie would never say "COJCOLDS." That nickname was invented after BRM died. It is not an insignificant point - you used quotation marks indicating an exact quote - which it was not.

5. I further know that you do not have the book because the quote in it's entirety disproves your point (incorrect point) that there is no salvation outside the LDS Church. Yes - it is possible that you actually had the book and read the whole quote and knew that you were falsely representing what the whole quote taught but then you would have to admit to deliberate dishonesty. You won't do that so we must assume that somebody else selectively edited the quote before you saw it and you just got sucked in to the deception.

6. Here's your last chance at not being spanked Roman. I can check the book on Sunday or Monday. What printing of the book do you own - what chapter is it in and what page number?

BTW, Roman, since you don't have the book, I know you will not take me up on item number six.

Spanked.

[roman]

I won't address your post because it is just silly.

The book I quotes from is Doctrinal NT comentary vol. 2 p113 cf 366,458-99 506-07 and from mormon doctrine 2nd ed. p.626 and p.603.

There I did your home work. i put in the COJCOLDS that was me I admit that. I only did it to claify---so what of that. The quotes your are using that I provided are only a representation of the real thing----that I did post later----in full----if you had kept up with the thread you would know that----who is spanked now

Your arogance is only exceded by your eletism

BTW you don't have the ability to get me mad or upset me. I reconize your style of posting for what it is----dancingand leading with the wrong foot

[Snow]

Originally posted by roman@Nov 19 2005, 07:15 PM

I won't address your post because it is just silly.

And yet you went right on and addressed it. Good going Roman.

The book I quotes from is Doctrinal NT comentary vol. 2 p113 cf 366,458-99 506-07...

Let me ask you a question Roman. Do you think it is very honest to selectively take 41 words from from a total of 45 whole pages, deliberately leave out the parts that contradict the point you are trying to make, and then pass the 41 words off as an actual quote in line with the author's thinking.

Does that sound honest Roman?

Your arogance is only exceded by your eletism

What?

And by the way, you have again avoided admitting that you do or don't have the book. That's three time now. Care to go for four?