Divine Justice?

[Snow]

The author of Exodus blames God for some of the suffering heaped upon both the Israelites and Jews.

We learn from the text that Pharaoh would not listen Moses’ entreaties and hardened his heart against Israel. In response the Lord caused, not just Pharoah, but all of Egypt to suffer various evils and plagues. The Pharaoh ignores the plagues and continues with his hard heart. More God-induced suffering befalls Egypt up through 5 plagues. Then, however, God himself, according to the author of Exodus, actually takes over and hardens the Pharaoh's heart. In response to the hardened heart that God himself hardened, God sends additional evil upon Egypt.

In this case God is shown violating several principles of the gospel:

1. Free Agency: God removes Pharaoh's agency when He hardens Pharaoh's heart.

2. Justice: God visits evil on both the Egyptians and the Israelites because of both God’s and Pharaoh's heart hardening.

Paul, the author of Romans in the New Testament takes it even further in chapter 9 when he states that God didn’t just harden Pharaoh's heart in this particular instance but went so far as to raise Pharaoh up expressly in order to cause him to do what he did... God’s motivation being to demonstrate His power and extend His glory.

Why do some Bible authors have a view of God that is so fundamentally opposed to our understanding of a just and benevolent God?

[Justice]

I don't believe God hardened Pharaoh's heart. If you go back to the Hebrew it seems to be saying Pharaoh hardened his own heart and God allowed it.

I no longer have my Young's Analytical Concordance, but I studied this many years ago. Maybe if someone can show us the Hebrew for the verses in question...

[Snow]

I don't believe God hardened Pharaoh's heart. If you go back to the Hebrew it seems to be saying Pharaoh hardened his own heart and God allowed it.

I no longer have my Young's Analytical Concordance, but I studied this many years ago. Maybe if someone can show us the Hebrew for the verses in question...

I doubt you speak or understand Hebrew but, okay, please demonstrate what you claim.

While you are at it, could you please tell us how it is that you can translate it correctly but the translators of the:

NIV

NASB

NLT

KJV

NKJV

ASV

etc

...all cannot.

[Just_A_Guy]

The JST says it was Pharaoh who hardened his own heart. See, e.g., Exodus 9:12. Romans 9:17 only says the Lord raised up Pharaoh to show the Lord's power; the original text of the subsequent verse seems somewhat ambiguous as to whether it was the Lord who was doing it or not; indeed, Verse 22 implies that the Lord's practice is actually to allow evil to endure in spite of His own wishes, the better to show forth His glory in the long run. At any rate--if Pharaoh had submitted to the Lord's prophet and freed Israel, would that not have simply been another manifestation of God's power?

I don't think we know enough about the political conditions of the day (especially whether Joe Egyptian agreed with keeping Israel as slaves, and the degree to which popular opinion could/did shape domestic policy) to determine whether the plagues on the Egyptian masses were truly "just". Even if you could document that many/most Egyptians didn't deserve what they got, how does that differ from anyone who suffers today from calamities caused by natural phenomenon that we generally accept to be controlled by divine power?

The tricky part, IMHO, is whether the plagues were such bald manifestations of God's power that they effectually denied Pharaoh of any meaningful degree of agency.

Edited December 13, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[MormonMama]

The JST says that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. For example, Exodus 7:3 says "And I will harden Pharaoh's heart...." In the footnotes at the bottom, the Joseph Smith Translation for that passage says, "And Pharaoh will harden his heart, as I said unto thee...."

This pattern continues, with each indication of the Bible saying that God hardening Pharaoh's heart being countered with the JST saying that Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

The JST is a divinely inspired correction of some parts of the Bible that were mistranslated at some point during the many times it was passed from one language to another.

[prisonchaplain]

Is this not what happens when the Holy Spirit has been blasphemed? The sinner so completely resists and rejects the conviction of the Spirit that God removes any hope of repentence.

[deseretgov]

There's a chapter somewhere in the OT where God tells aprophet that He raised up a wicked people to destroy a nation. The prophet was dismayed that God would do such a thing.

I also remember God commanding Abraham to lie and tell Pharaoh that his wife was his sister.

[prisonchaplain]

I also remember God commanding Abraham to lie and tell Pharaoh that his wife was his sister.

Abraham did engage in this ruse repeatedly. I'm not aware that God told him to, though.

[MormonMama]

PC is correct. I can find at least two instances where Abraham told Sarah to say she was his sister so that he would not be killed by men who desired her for her beauty, but God did not tell him to do it. In fact, in both cases God either punished or warned the men who tried to take Sarah, telling them the truth before they could take her carnally and commit that sin.

[Prodigal_Son]

This seems to fly in the face of the entire premise of us having our agency. Reminds me of the mistranslation in the Lord's prayer, "Lead me not into temptation."

[Dravin]

22 And it came to pass when I was come near to enter into Egypt, the Lord said unto me: Behold, Sarai, thy wife, is a very fair woman to look upon;

23 Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see her, they will say—She is his wife; and they will kill you, but they will save her alive; therefore see that ye do on this wise:

24 Let her say unto the Egyptians, she is thy sister, and thy soul shall live.

25 And it came to pass that I, Abraham, told Sarai, my wife, all that the Lord had said unto me—Therefore say unto them, I pray thee, thou art my asister, that it may be well with me for thy sake, and my soul shall live because of thee.

Sure reads to me like the Lord is telling him what follows the colon. While he doesn't outright command him (Thou shalt lie) he tells him if he wants to live Sarai needs to lie. That is a mighty fine line to walk. It's like telling my kid that if he doesn't want to die he needs to tell his teacher that his mother beats him and then acting all innocent when confronted about it, "I didn't tell him to lie!"

[Dravin]

22 And it came to pass when I was come near to enter into Egypt, the Lord said unto me: Behold, Sarai, thy wife, is a very fair woman to look upon;

23 Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see her, they will say—She is his wife; and they will kill you, but they will save her alive; therefore see that ye do on this wise:

24 Let her say unto the Egyptians, she is thy sister, and thy soul shall live.

25 And it came to pass that I, Abraham, told Sarai, my wife, all that the Lord had said unto me—Therefore say unto them, I pray thee, thou art my asister, that it may be well with me for thy sake, and my soul shall live because of thee.

Sure reads to me like the Lord is telling him what follows the colon. While he doesn't outright command him (Thou shalt lie) he tells him if he wants to live Sarai needs to lie. That is a mighty fine line to walk. It's like telling my kid that if he doesn't want to die he needs to tell his teacher that his mother beats him and then acting all innocent when confronted about it, "I didn't tell him to lie!"

P.S. PrisonChaplain doesn't have to worry about this on account of him not considering the Pearl of Great Price cannon.

[prisonchaplain]

PC is correct. I can find at least two instances where Abraham told Sarah to say she was his sister so that he would not be killed by men who desired her for her beauty, but God did not tell him to do it. In fact, in both cases God either punished or warned the men who tried to take Sarah, telling them the truth before they could take her carnally and commit that sin.

A WOMAN just said that I, a man, was correct! Is that even allowed?

Edited December 14, 2009 by prisonchaplain

[Vanhin]

A WOMAN just said that I, a man, was correct! Is that even allowed?

It's not allowed. Believe me you will pay for it dearly...

Vanhin

Edited December 14, 2009 by prisonchaplain
clean up quote format

[prisonchaplain]

Sure reads to me like the Lord is telling him what follows the colon. While he doesn't outright command him (Thou shalt lie) he tells him if he wants to live Sarai needs to lie. That is a mighty fine line to walk. It's like telling my kid that if he doesn't want to die he needs to tell his teacher that his mother beats him and then acting all innocent when confronted about it, "I didn't tell him to lie!"

P.S. PrisonChaplain doesn't have to worry about this on account of him not considering the Pearl of Great Price cannon.

Is it possible that Abraham lied about God telling him to say that?

[Dravin]

Is it possible that Abraham lied about God telling him to say that?

And we're right back to the OP. :)

[MormonMama]

A WOMAN just said that I, a man, was correct! Is that even allowed?

Enjoy it while you can. It might not happen again.

Sure reads to me like the Lord is telling him what follows the colon. While he doesn't outright command him (Thou shalt lie) he tells him if he wants to live Sarai needs to lie. That is a mighty fine line to walk. It's like telling my kid that if he doesn't want to die he needs to tell his teacher that his mother beats him and then acting all innocent when confronted about it, "I didn't tell him to lie!"

Hmmm, you're right about the reference. I'd been looking in the Bible. I'd forgotten all about the Book of Abraham at the time.

However, the Lord also told Abraham to kill his son, to commit murder. And who was it that God told to kill every man, woman and even innocent children in a certain town when they conquered it? For that matter, were there no innocent children in Sodom or Gomorrah, or who died in the flood of Noah?

Isn't murder a sin? Was God telling Abraham to sin in telling him to kill Isaac? Or does it not count because Abraham was prevented from killing Isaac at the last second? Was God a murderer when He let innocent children die in the flood or at Sodom and Gomorrah?

I think we need to be VERY careful when applying our limited understanding of God's commandments back to Him. God can see things that we cannot. Certainly those men referenced in Genesis and Abraham would have killed Abraham for Sarah if they had known she was his wife. Had God not warned Abraham of this, would God have then been responsible for Abraham's death?

[bytor2112]

There's a chapter somewhere in the OT where God tells aprophet that He raised up a wicked people to destroy a nation. The prophet was dismayed that God would do such a thing.

I also remember God commanding Abraham to lie and tell Pharaoh that his wife was his sister.

Actually Sarai was Abraham's sister.

Genesis:

12 And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.

Edited December 14, 2009 by bytor2112

[Dravin]

However, the Lord also told Abraham to kill his son, to commit murder. And who was it that God told to kill every man, woman and even innocent children in a certain town when they conquered it? For that matter, were there no innocent children in Sodom or Gomorrah, or who died in the flood of Noah?

Isn't murder a sin? Was God telling Abraham to sin in telling him to kill Isaac? Or does it not count because Abraham was prevented from killing Isaac at the last second? Was God a murderer when He let innocent children die in the flood or at Sodom and Gomorrah?

I think you'll find the OP is of the opinion that there was no World Wide flood that killed all the < 8 year olds on the planet (or even a substantial portion). Nor will you find him in agreement that God told anyone to kill every man women and even innocent children in any conquered town.

Me, for my point I was just pointing out that God did pretty much command Abraham to lie. You can then decide whether it was really lying, was lying but justified ("Where are you hiding the Jews", asked the Gestapo Agent) or if the account is inaccurate and God did not say that (or various combinations or other options).

Had God not warned Abraham of this, would God have then been responsible for Abraham's death?

Only if he's responsible for every death that he could have prevented, which I imagine would be all of them, or at least all the violent and accidental ones.

[Snow]

The JST says that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. For example, Exodus 7:3 says "And I will harden Pharaoh's heart...." In the footnotes at the bottom, the Joseph Smith Translation for that passage says, "And Pharaoh will harden his heart, as I said unto thee...."

This pattern continues, with each indication of the Bible saying that God hardening Pharaoh's heart being countered with the JST saying that Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

The JST is a divinely inspired correction of some parts of the Bible that were mistranslated at some point during the many times it was passed from one language to another.

I am not questioning whether or not Joseph Smith understood the gospel. It's the author(s) of Exodus that are in doubt.

[Snow]

Is this not what happens when the Holy Spirit has been blasphemed? The sinner so completely resists and rejects the conviction of the Spirit that God removes any hope of repentence.

... and so, in this case, visits evil upon Egyptians and Israelites alike because Pharaoh missed his chance at repentance?

[Justice]

I doubt you speak or understand Hebrew but, okay, please demonstrate what you claim.

While you are at it, could you please tell us how it is that you can translate it correctly but the translators of the:

NIV

NASB

NLT

KJV

NKJV

ASV

etc

...all cannot.

I don't understand Hebrew. I never claimed that I did. Do you know what a Young's Analytical Concordance is?

See Just_A_Guy and MormonMama's posts.

As to how they did not all translate it correctly... it was a pronoun usage thing if I remember. Sometimes when "he" is used it's hard to know which he is the subject (could have been Gao or pharaoh). Again, it *seemed* to me, from what I remember, that the "he" could have went either way. And, since I believe God will not harden anyone's heart, it was easy for me to pick who was the subject of "he hardened his heart."

As I also said, I no longer have my Young's. Otherwise I'd be glad to post what I *remember* from years ago. That's also why I asked if someone knew anything about the Hebrew.

[Snow]

Abraham did engage in this ruse repeatedly. I'm not aware that God told him to, though.

It's a Mormon belief.

[Snow]

PC is correct. I can find at least two instances where Abraham told Sarah to say she was his sister so that he would not be killed by men who desired her for her beauty, but God did not tell him to do it. In fact, in both cases God either punished or warned the men who tried to take Sarah, telling them the truth before they could take her carnally and commit that sin.

That's untrue.

In Abraham 2 (22-25) the author or translator of the Book of Abraham has God instructing Abraham to lie.

[bytor2112]

That's untrue.

In Abraham 2 (22-25) the author or translator of the Book of Abraham has God instructing Abraham to lie.

Genesis seems to indicate that Sarai IS Abraham's sister:

Genesis:

12 And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.

Edited December 14, 2009 by bytor2112