Secret Combinations

[bjw]

Masons go volunteer at hospitals and drink beer and play pool. They really don't belong in this thread.

LM

I fail to see why people want to be so rude about this topic when I find it interesting. Also, I find this comment very distateful as I know many men in my lodge that do not drink at all, in fact I have a minister and a rabbi in my lodge. Many of them are upstanding people who never drink or play pool.

The purpose of the thread was to discuss "secret combinations" and the subject turned to how masonry and the temple are related, as the secret combinations of the Book of Mormon are examples of Satan's counterfeit.

[bjw]

Exactly, pianoman, and whether they did or did not doesn't prove or disprove that Mormonism is true.

Mormonism hinges on whether or not the Book of Mormon is true.

Yet, the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon is not asked in the temple recommend interviews. Emphasis is placed on the temple ceremony as being necessary for exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom. If the ceremony could be proven false (which I don't think it can) it would definitely disprove Mormonism.

However, an ancient origin of these elements of the ceremony supports, but not proves Mormonism.

[NeuroTypical]

I fail to see why people want to be so rude about this topic when I find it interesting. Also, I find this comment very distateful as I know many men in my lodge that do not drink at all, in fact I have a minister and a rabbi in my lodge. Many of them are upstanding people who never drink or play pool.

I guess I poorly typed. I have nothing bad to say about a fraternal organization that comes together to do acts of service and enjoy each other's company. I was raised in Salt Lake City's American Leigon halls and Moose Lodges. I don't consider it rude or distasteful to mention beer drinking or pool playing, and I most certainly do NOT believe you can't be an upstanding person if you do either.

I'm just saying that none of the Masons I've met or been related to, LDS or otherwise, have anything to do with the secret combinations mentioned in the BoM. And since the title of this thread is "Secret Combinations", it seems like a disservice to Masonry in general to be talking about it here.

Why not start a thread about Masons?

LM

[bjw]

I guess I poorly typed. I have nothing bad to say about a fraternal organization that comes together to do acts of service and enjoy each other's company. I was raised in Salt Lake City's American Leigon halls and Moose Lodges. I don't consider it rude or distasteful to mention beer drinking or pool playing, and I most certainly do NOT believe you can't be an upstanding person if you do either.

I'm just saying that none of the Masons I've met or been related to, LDS or otherwise, have anything to do with the secret combinations mentioned in the BoM. And since the title of this thread is "Secret Combinations", it seems like a disservice to Masonry in general to be talking about it here.

Why not start a thread about Masons?

LM

The purpose of this thread was a discussion of the secret combinations mentioned in the Book of Mormon, as you say. This secret combination wore aprons, used secret signs and passwords, hand grips, made covenants, and met in secret. All of these characteristics fit the masons perfectly, as well as temple Mormonism. However, the only difference with the BoM combination is that they do evil instead of good and follow Satan instead of God. This is partly why HiJolly earlier in the thread disagreed with a poster who attempted to characterize the masons with the Gadianton Robbers. The BoM account makes perfect sense that Satan wants to counterfeit the true combination by coming up with his own that has the same elements, such as aprons, grips, signs, tokens, words, covenants, rituals, etc.

Now, if what these authentic school masons are saying is true, that these elements mentioned above were dreamed up by a bunch of guys in the back of a bar in the early 1700s who wanted to start a new fraternity, then Satan did not counterfeit any elements of the Gospel with the Gadianton Robbers. Either that, or the BoM account isn't literal truth. (which I believe it is true)

For the Book of Mormon to mention this many masonic elements, as does the LDS temple ritual, it makes it a very critical issue and very much does involve masonry. There is no way this many common elements could be coincidence.

In considering the identity of the Gadianton Robbers, whether in past times or our day, which is what this thread is about, knowing the characteristics of the combination and what Satan has counterfeited is necessary. Therefore, masonry should be discussed in this thread.

[NeuroTypical]

Therefore, masonry should be discussed in this thread.

Ok - you make a good case. My dillitantish two cents on the issue: "Masons ain't Gadianton Robbers". Don't really have much else to say about it.

This secret combination wore aprons, used secret signs and passwords, hand grips, made covenants, and met in secret.

Could I get a scriptural reference about BoM secret combinations wearing aprons? The word doesn't appear in the BoM...

LM

[bjw]

Could I get a scriptural reference about BoM secret combinations wearing aprons? The word doesn't appear in the BoM...

LM

Sure,

3 Nephi 4:7:

7 And it came to pass that they did come up to battle; and it was in the sixth month; and behold, great and terrible was the day that they did come up to battle; and they were girded about after the manner of robbers; and they had a lamb-skin about their loins, and they were dyed in blood, and their heads were shorn, and they had head-plates upon them; and great and terrible was the appearance of the armies of Giddianhi, because of their armor, and because of their being dyed in blood.

From the Grand Lodge of California website: The White Lamb Skin Apron

The lamb has in all ages been deemed an emblem of innocence. He, therefore, who wears the lambskin as a badge of Masonry, is thereby continually reminded of that purity of life and conduct which is essentially necessary to his gaining admission into the Celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides.

[NeuroTypical]

Pretty weak, don't you think? I mean, girding loins and raising lambs are what dudes have been doing ever since father Adam got kicked out of the garden. Seems like quite a stretch to associate the two.

Or, in other words, it's about as strong a link as shorn heads and head-plates linking the US Military to these guys...

LM

[bjw]

Pretty weak, don't you think? I mean, girding loins and raising lambs are what dudes have been doing ever since father Adam got kicked out of the garden. Seems like quite a stretch to associate the two.

Or, in other words, it's about as strong a link as shorn heads and head-plates linking the US Military to these guys...

LM

I would normally agree with you except for one thing, every other characteristic of masonry they meet it exactly. When wearing a lambskin covering over your loins is added to a list of secret signs, tokens, passwords, covenants, and rituals it fits masonry to a t.

If that were the only characteristic I'd say we were talking about some herders that raise animals for profit, but when its added to the above list its an obvious masonic reference.

Therefore, we can conclude that the Book of Mormon is in conflict with the "authentic school" of masonic history espoused on Page 75 of the Scottish Rite ritual monitor, the view that is held by Brother Cook and most masons today. I feel that believing the BoM to be an actual history requires believing in an ancient origin for these elements, a view being abandoned by most masonic historians.

My personal opinion is I'm putting my faith in the Book of Mormon in that I feel it knows more than most historians do today, and that we may see more evidence later to reveal that these things go back farther than believed. Most people I've talked to in my ward that found out I'm a mason told me they believe that masonry goes back to ancient times and that explains the similarities in mormonism. I think its more the intellectual crowd that's taking the authentic school view.

Edited January 16, 2010 by bjw
Clarity

[cookslc]

I would normally agree with you except for one thing, every other characteristic of masonry they meet it exactly. When wearing a lambskin covering over your loins is added to a list of secret signs, tokens, passwords, covenants, and rituals it fits masonry to a t.

If that were the only characteristic I'd say we were talking about some herders that raise animals for profit, but when its added to the above list its an obvious masonic reference.

Therefore, we can conclude that the Book of Mormon is in conflict with the "authentic school" of masonic history espoused on Page 75 of the Scottish Rite ritual monitor, the view that is held by Brother Cook and most masons today. I feel that believing the BoM to be an actual history requires believing in an ancient origin for these elements, a view being abandoned by most masonic historians.

My personal opinion is I'm putting my faith in the Book of Mormon in that I feel it knows more than most historians do today, and that we may see more evidence later to reveal that these things go back farther than believed. Most people I've talked to in my ward that found out I'm a mason told me they believe that masonry goes back to ancient times and that explains the similarities in mormonism. I think its more the intellectual crowd that's taking the authentic school view.

There is a common logical fallacy applied in assuming a common derivation for similar cultural characterstics. For instance, many cultures separately developed hats. A hat is worn in the temple endowment. Therefore, all hats descended from the Lord's original endowment.

I think it more realistic and probable to realize that leathern aprons were worn for protection in a variety of trades (carpentry, tanning, masonry) and because modern Freemasonry grew out of the operative masonic lodges, they used the operative symbols, including the apron. My mother used an apron to cook in the kitchen. She wasn't LDS. I don't think her use of the apron descended from the Temple or the BoM.

This is the same for ritual. To imply that all cultures have various rituals because they are all descended from Adam's endowment is, I think, a bit of a stretch. I think it teaches more the need for man's use of symbols and ritual to teach. The Pledge of Allegiance in the U.S. is ritual with a sign and set words. We well know when that pledge was written, and there is no connection with ancient ritual in doing so. Rather, we see a sign common across all cultures of placing the hand over the heart as a sign of fidelity.

I suggest you look at the DVD of Exploring the Connection Between Mormons and Masons. You will find that at least some LDS scholars do not accept a common derivation either.