Faith Or Works? For Paul

Serg · November 21, 2005

I guess Traveler, that your simple ecuation can summerize most of these concepts, lol, thanks .

paul6150 · November 21, 2005

Originally posted by Serg@Nov 21 2005, 12:27 PM
I guess Traveler, that your simple ecuation can summerize most of these concepts, lol, thanks .
←

SERG, LIVY111US AND TRAVELER

I will try and answer all three of your last posts so we can close in on this concept of grace versus works. I will start by using the principal part of livy111us post and then expand to cover Serg and Traveler posts.

livy111us said "What you say is "letting Him use us and work through us", and I say follow Him. Again, I believe it's the terminology that is different." MY RESPONSE There CAN BE a big difference between letting Him use us as His vessels and just simply following Him. Many people say they follow Him but there is none or very little evidence that they are being trasformed by Him into a vessel usable by Him. They may be doing all the religious activities, keeping the laws and commandments but there still is not a change of heart necessary for the sanctification and transformation process that He wants to do. So it can be said that they may have Works but they do not have Faith to believe. They are like the ones mentioned in Matthew 7:21-23 Jesus will claim at the judgement seat that they had all kinds of good works but they never really believed in Jesus to start with they just do works, even good works, but have no belief in Jesus. So just simply saying you follow Him may not be the right answer yet. ARE YOU SURRENDERED TO HIM AND WILLING TO DO ALL HE COMMANDS?

livy111us said "We both agree that once you accept Christ, if a man turns to sin and is unrepentant, and maybe even denies the faith, or whatever the circumstances might be, he [odds are, being that we aren't going to be the judge] will not enter into the kingdom. However, someone who does accept Him and relies on His merits, who follows Him and His teachings [again, not knowing the heart of individuals, nor being a judge, can't know for certain] will end up with the Father." MY RESPONSE One big problem with what you said IS THAT IF ONE ACCEPTS CHRIST and then sins or falls away they cannot enter into the kingdom. So apparently you agree, like in the BOM, that one can lose their salvation and go to hell after they have accepted the Lord. This is in complete disagreement with the Bible's message in that the Bible says if we are truely His then "no one can pluck us out of His hand". Other passages talk about the Holy Spirit being the guarantee that we are saved. So if the Holy Spirit resides within then we are His. Does that mean we will never sin again NO WAY We will still struggle with the flesh as I referred to in Romans 7 and it is only when we are free from this earthly body will we never sin again.

livy111us said "As with the Book of Mormon, like I said earlier, as a whole, the Book of Mormon does not teach salvation by works. I have read it numerous times, so many that I lost count years ago, and have not even got the impression that it teaches that." MY RESPONSE I too have read the BOM numerous times that I have lost count and even have a draft of a book about what I have found in the BOM which is what I have posted in part of my responses

livy111us said "I believe that it teaches the contrary. Some could pull a few scriptures out and say that it does, but, if someone was to just read Phil. 2:12 alone, they would say the Bible teaches salvation by works." MY RESPONSE You should have continued with the verse Phil. 2:13 where it states " for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose." This is what I have been saying all along. If we have accepted His free gift os salvation and are surrendered to Him then He will work through us to do according to His will. Yes it is true that someone can take a verse out of context and make it say what you want but later I will give you a list of places the BOM is clear in the "works salvation message".

livy111us said "I have talked to many who lose respect and become very rude once they find out I am LDS, but thus far, have not experienced it with you. I believe that you are well read in the Bible and have a proper understanding of salvation." MY RESPONSE Thanks and I don't intend to get rude at all. Now I may be strong in pointing out my understanding about what my points are but I hope you don't think I am being rude.

Serg a quick response to some of your responses because I have to get back to work. Some of us have to work.

God's commands are still required to be obeyed but it is by this new love relationship with Jesus and the work of the Holy Spirit that helps us walk out these commands "in fear and trembling" Phil 2:12

Jesus didn't kill the law as you said He fufilled the law. The law had many heavy penalties for disobeying it. Jesus fulfilled the legal requirements and paid the penalties for our disobedience to His commands. He took the burden.

Jesus said the Law would still remain every "jot and tittle" until heaven and earth would pass away and the new heaven and new earth come forth. So the requirements of the law still exist for those who don't accept His free gift of salvation and want to make it their own way. If we accept His free gift of salvation then the price has been paid and we are free from the penalty of the law. Along with this freedom though comes the responsibility on our part to act like one of His kids and live our lives for Him. We can only do that with His help and grace.

Till Later Posts.

applecore · November 22, 2005

Ya'll are making this much more complicated than it is . I'll post later

Serg · November 22, 2005

Originally posted by paul6150+Nov 21 2005, 02:03 PM-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Serg@Nov 21 2005, 12:27 PM
I guess Traveler, that your simple ecuation can summerize most of these concepts, lol, thanks .
←
SERG, LIVY111US AND TRAVELER
I will try and answer all three of your last posts so we can close in on this concept of grace versus works. I will start by using the principal part of livy111us post and then expand to cover Serg and Traveler posts.
livy111us said "What you say is "letting Him use us and work through us", and I say follow Him. Again, I believe it's the terminology that is different." MY RESPONSE There CAN BE a big difference between letting Him use us as His vessels and just simply following Him. Many people say they follow Him but there is none or very little evidence that they are being trasformed by Him into a vessel usable by Him. They may be doing all the religious activities, keeping the laws and commandments but there still is not a change of heart necessary for the sanctification and transformation process that He wants to do. So it can be said that they may have Works but they do not have Faith to believe. They are like the ones mentioned in Matthew 7:21-23 Jesus will claim at the judgement seat that they had all kinds of good works but they never really believed in Jesus to start with they just do works, even good works, but have no belief in Jesus. So just simply saying you follow Him may not be the right answer yet. ARE YOU SURRENDERED TO HIM AND WILLING TO DO ALL HE COMMANDS?
livy111us said "We both agree that once you accept Christ, if a man turns to sin and is unrepentant, and maybe even denies the faith, or whatever the circumstances might be, he [odds are, being that we aren't going to be the judge] will not enter into the kingdom. However, someone who does accept Him and relies on His merits, who follows Him and His teachings [again, not knowing the heart of individuals, nor being a judge, can't know for certain] will end up with the Father." MY RESPONSE One big problem with what you said IS THAT IF ONE ACCEPTS CHRIST and then sins or falls away they cannot enter into the kingdom. So apparently you agree, like in the BOM, that one can lose their salvation and go to hell after they have accepted the Lord. This is in complete disagreement with the Bible's message in that the Bible says if we are truely His then "no one can pluck us out of His hand". Other passages talk about the Holy Spirit being the guarantee that we are saved. So if the Holy Spirit resides within then we are His. Does that mean we will never sin again NO WAY We will still struggle with the flesh as I referred to in Romans 7 and it is only when we are free from this earthly body will we never sin again.
livy111us said "As with the Book of Mormon, like I said earlier, as a whole, the Book of Mormon does not teach salvation by works. I have read it numerous times, so many that I lost count years ago, and have not even got the impression that it teaches that." MY RESPONSE I too have read the BOM numerous times that I have lost count and even have a draft of a book about what I have found in the BOM which is what I have posted in part of my responses
livy111us said "I believe that it teaches the contrary. Some could pull a few scriptures out and say that it does, but, if someone was to just read Phil. 2:12 alone, they would say the Bible teaches salvation by works." MY RESPONSE You should have continued with the verse Phil. 2:13 where it states " for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose." This is what I have been saying all along. If we have accepted His free gift os salvation and are surrendered to Him then He will work through us to do according to His will. Yes it is true that someone can take a verse out of context and make it say what you want but later I will give you a list of places the BOM is clear in the "works salvation message".
livy111us said "I have talked to many who lose respect and become very rude once they find out I am LDS, but thus far, have not experienced it with you. I believe that you are well read in the Bible and have a proper understanding of salvation." MY RESPONSE Thanks and I don't intend to get rude at all. Now I may be strong in pointing out my understanding about what my points are but I hope you don't think I am being rude.
Serg a quick response to some of your responses because I have to get back to work. Some of us have to work.
God's commands are still required to be obeyed but it is by this new love relationship with Jesus and the work of the Holy Spirit that helps us walk out these commands "in fear and trembling" Phil 2:12
Jesus didn't kill the law as you said He fufilled the law. The law had many heavy penalties for disobeying it. Jesus fulfilled the legal requirements and paid the penalties for our disobedience to His commands. He took the burden.
Jesus said the Law would still remain every "jot and tittle" until heaven and earth would pass away and the new heaven and new earth come forth. So the requirements of the law still exist for those who don't accept His free gift of salvation and want to make it their own way. If we accept His free gift of salvation then the price has been paid and we are free from the penalty of the law. Along with this freedom though comes the responsibility on our part to act like one of His kids and live our lives for Him. We can only do that with His help and grace.
Till Later Posts.
←

Paul:

First: I do study in Collage and also have to work, so I'll take it as a complement and ratification of our(both) surroundings and not as the ignorant attack it would sound :) .

Now as to your response to the first member:

Issue 1): Transformation vs. obediance

we have Peter's statement: " That the atrial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."</span>1.Pe.1:7-9

Also we find:

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 2Pe.1:10-11

Also friend we can point towards this direction:

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1Pe.1:22-23

So my friend Paul, the conversion of a person if seen in order to attain salvation needs both faith and obedience, for one validated the other, no other form. Without a gospel to obey there would be nonsense to preach our word of faith, also see that it states that we are born both from the Spirit and the WORD OF GOD. what is the Word of God? His commandments and His Will.

Issue 2) The possibility of 'loosing salvation":

We have (i hope) concurred that when we accept Christ we "go from death to life, from shadows to His great light", so we do also as most protestants believe that when we accept Him and enter His body(Church) are "marked" as His(hence we "take His name upon us'), His servants and property for He bought us with His blood, and also are "redeemed"from our sins, and death. So if it matters to you that we call that "state""salvation"well, for the sake of our mutual understanding lets call it that. So we have MANY occasions in the scriptures which relate to "falling from the grace once given", and thats where we cant get a long, you see, you believe that because just of that state of cleanness we are assured salvation, but we as reality see that as long as we live we are exposed to commit SIN, but lets see it:

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

Hebrews 6:4-6

First of all when understanding this: He openly accepts the possibility of members who have once been "saved"(this is reference to our so called "state"of cleanness") to FALL and LOOSE their "salvation".

Also see the verse one which states : "THEREFORE leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection;"

Now why go unto PERFECTION if such was attained at the begining of the conversion? Because its not attained there! If he admits such a concept he openly admits theres a "more perfect"state than that of our so called "salvation by accepting Christ". Also, if the salvation is already attained since the bigining and cant be lost, why do we have statements as that of Peter referring to "make your election , sure" , why if it was already sure? Because its not! Its a matter of your whole life. As Paul said to Timothy:

That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

Also we have : Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.Phil.3:12-16

And also my friend we have ;

Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that eateth the air:

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

1Cor.9:24-26

This is sufficient as to prove you not too asserted towards "never loosing salvation" and also as to "never attaining a far more perfected state"than that of your recalled "salvation".

Again friends, i give you this thought that has cleared my mind since i'm a member of the Church:

<span style=\'color:purple\'>"For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;" Moses 6:60

Now Paul as to your response to me ans traveler, well i wont answer more of your posts if you dont answer each of the scripture above quoted, in both our posts. :dontknow: :sparklygrin:

Traveler · November 22, 2005

Let me make this as simple as I can. Knowing of someone and knowing someone is not the same thing. Anyone can say they believe in Jesus the Christ. Anyone can say they have Faith in Christ, are borne of the spirit of G-d, that they have accepted Jesus as their personal savior and that they love Jesus. Even devils can make such claims. Unfounded claims to Jesus are of no value what-so-ever.

Any claim on or about Jesus to be true must have as the very minimum requirement – The witness must be obedience to his doctrine, teachings, covenants, commandments, ordinances and example. Anyone that makes any claim concerning Jesus that is not obedient to his teachings, will not and cannot witness to the truth of Jesus or his teachings.

Anyone can say anything they want about faith and works, anyone can quote all scriptures, you can even bring an angel and shake the very foundations of the earth but if you have not repented and are not obedient to Jesus, you are nothing to me and no better than the vilest of liars.

If you are concerned about salvation for yourself or anyone else then repent and try the Words of Jesus by being obedient to his commandments. If you do this you will know the doctrine of yourself – you will know if you should have faith and works and teach the same to others. But if you are not obedient to his word and do not teach obedience to his word as being necessary for anything of eternal good – I have no use for your witness and I encourage others follow and try this example.

The Traveler

applecore · November 22, 2005

Originally posted by applecore@Nov 22 2005, 09:25 AM
It seems everyone is trying to justify salvation and works as part of or not part of the same thing. IMO it's really quite simple and satisfies all requirements for both. It even brings the scriptures into agreement.
Jesus talks about being judged according to our works. The book of Revelation makes the same statement. James says the same thing. Paul on the other hand gets hung up on grace. From Paul's perspective, he became aware of the grace of God on the road where Jesus appeared and changed his life. Paul knew what his fate would have been without God's grace, so he makes that a main emphasis of his ministry.
But they are compatible. Salvation IS by the grace of God and there is nothing we can do to add to or take away from it. Works on the other hand has to do with reward in the here-after, not salvation. Jesus ministry was focused on doing (works). All of the parables have to do with works, you can't just ignore that. Jesus said if you do these things you shall in no wise loose your reward. What are the mansions He went to prepare? Rewards?
If the information Joseph Smith Jr gave us about the glories is true, then all are saved (except the sons of perdition) from the second death, but are rewarded according to their works (hence the different glories). If you check all the references on salvation, grace,works,rewards,etc and apply them with this understanding, it all agrees and makes sense.
There are multiple statements regarding "saved by". We're saved by grace, by faith, by believing, by works, by baptism, etc. You can't just pick and choose which one you prefer. IMO all are important. You have to understand who the writer was addressing and in what context he was speaking. Was it a non-believer or someone who was new in the church and needed more instruction or what? The different requirements aren't inconsistent if you have that background.
←

paul6150 · November 23, 2005

Originally posted by Serg+Nov 22 2005, 09:43 AM-->
Originally posted by paul6150@Nov 21 2005, 02:03 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Serg@Nov 21 2005, 12:27 PM
I guess Traveler, that your simple ecuation can summerize most of these concepts, lol, thanks .
←
SERG, LIVY111US AND TRAVELER
I will try and answer all three of your last posts so we can close in on this concept of grace versus works. I will start by using the principal part of livy111us post and then expand to cover Serg and Traveler posts.
livy111us said "What you say is "letting Him use us and work through us", and I say follow Him. Again, I believe it's the terminology that is different." MY RESPONSE There CAN BE a big difference between letting Him use us as His vessels and just simply following Him. Many people say they follow Him but there is none or very little evidence that they are being trasformed by Him into a vessel usable by Him. They may be doing all the religious activities, keeping the laws and commandments but there still is not a change of heart necessary for the sanctification and transformation process that He wants to do. So it can be said that they may have Works but they do not have Faith to believe. They are like the ones mentioned in Matthew 7:21-23 Jesus will claim at the judgement seat that they had all kinds of good works but they never really believed in Jesus to start with they just do works, even good works, but have no belief in Jesus. So just simply saying you follow Him may not be the right answer yet. ARE YOU SURRENDERED TO HIM AND WILLING TO DO ALL HE COMMANDS?
livy111us said "We both agree that once you accept Christ, if a man turns to sin and is unrepentant, and maybe even denies the faith, or whatever the circumstances might be, he [odds are, being that we aren't going to be the judge] will not enter into the kingdom. However, someone who does accept Him and relies on His merits, who follows Him and His teachings [again, not knowing the heart of individuals, nor being a judge, can't know for certain] will end up with the Father." MY RESPONSE One big problem with what you said IS THAT IF ONE ACCEPTS CHRIST and then sins or falls away they cannot enter into the kingdom. So apparently you agree, like in the BOM, that one can lose their salvation and go to hell after they have accepted the Lord. This is in complete disagreement with the Bible's message in that the Bible says if we are truely His then "no one can pluck us out of His hand". Other passages talk about the Holy Spirit being the guarantee that we are saved. So if the Holy Spirit resides within then we are His. Does that mean we will never sin again NO WAY We will still struggle with the flesh as I referred to in Romans 7 and it is only when we are free from this earthly body will we never sin again.
livy111us said "As with the Book of Mormon, like I said earlier, as a whole, the Book of Mormon does not teach salvation by works. I have read it numerous times, so many that I lost count years ago, and have not even got the impression that it teaches that." MY RESPONSE I too have read the BOM numerous times that I have lost count and even have a draft of a book about what I have found in the BOM which is what I have posted in part of my responses
livy111us said "I believe that it teaches the contrary. Some could pull a few scriptures out and say that it does, but, if someone was to just read Phil. 2:12 alone, they would say the Bible teaches salvation by works." MY RESPONSE You should have continued with the verse Phil. 2:13 where it states " for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose." This is what I have been saying all along. If we have accepted His free gift os salvation and are surrendered to Him then He will work through us to do according to His will. Yes it is true that someone can take a verse out of context and make it say what you want but later I will give you a list of places the BOM is clear in the "works salvation message".
livy111us said "I have talked to many who lose respect and become very rude once they find out I am LDS, but thus far, have not experienced it with you. I believe that you are well read in the Bible and have a proper understanding of salvation." MY RESPONSE Thanks and I don't intend to get rude at all. Now I may be strong in pointing out my understanding about what my points are but I hope you don't think I am being rude.
Serg a quick response to some of your responses because I have to get back to work. Some of us have to work.
God's commands are still required to be obeyed but it is by this new love relationship with Jesus and the work of the Holy Spirit that helps us walk out these commands "in fear and trembling" Phil 2:12
Jesus didn't kill the law as you said He fufilled the law. The law had many heavy penalties for disobeying it. Jesus fulfilled the legal requirements and paid the penalties for our disobedience to His commands. He took the burden.
Jesus said the Law would still remain every "jot and tittle" until heaven and earth would pass away and the new heaven and new earth come forth. So the requirements of the law still exist for those who don't accept His free gift of salvation and want to make it their own way. If we accept His free gift of salvation then the price has been paid and we are free from the penalty of the law. Along with this freedom though comes the responsibility on our part to act like one of His kids and live our lives for Him. We can only do that with His help and grace.
Till Later Posts.
←
Paul:
First: I do study in Collage and also have to work, so I'll take it as a complement and ratification of our(both) surroundings and not as the ignorant attack it would sound :) .
Now as to your response to the first member:
Issue 1): Transformation vs. obediance
we have Peter's statement: " That the atrial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."</span>1.Pe.1:7-9
Also we find:
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 2Pe.1:10-11
Also friend we can point towards this direction:
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1Pe.1:22-23
So my friend Paul, the conversion of a person if seen in order to attain salvation needs both faith and obedience, for one validated the other, no other form. Without a gospel to obey there would be nonsense to preach our word of faith, also see that it states that we are born both from the Spirit and the WORD OF GOD. what is the Word of God? His commandments and His Will.
Issue 2) The possibility of 'loosing salvation":
We have (i hope) concurred that when we accept Christ we "go from death to life, from shadows to His great light", so we do also as most protestants believe that when we accept Him and enter His body(Church) are "marked" as His(hence we "take His name upon us'), His servants and property for He bought us with His blood, and also are "redeemed"from our sins, and death. So if it matters to you that we call that "state""salvation"well, for the sake of our mutual understanding lets call it that. So we have MANY occasions in the scriptures which relate to "falling from the grace once given", and thats where we cant get a long, you see, you believe that because just of that state of cleanness we are assured salvation, but we as reality see that as long as we live we are exposed to commit SIN, but lets see it:
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
Hebrews 6:4-6
First of all when understanding this: He openly accepts the possibility of members who have once been "saved"(this is reference to our so called "state"of cleanness") to FALL and LOOSE their "salvation".
Also see the verse one which states : "THEREFORE leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection;"
Now why go unto PERFECTION if such was attained at the begining of the conversion? Because its not attained there! If he admits such a concept he openly admits theres a "more perfect"state than that of our so called "salvation by accepting Christ". Also, if the salvation is already attained since the bigining and cant be lost, why do we have statements as that of Peter referring to "make your election , sure" , why if it was already sure? Because its not! Its a matter of your whole life. As Paul said to Timothy:
That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
Also we have : Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.Phil.3:12-16
And also my friend we have ;
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that eateth the air:
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
1Cor.9:24-26
This is sufficient as to prove you not too asserted towards "never loosing salvation" and also as to "never attaining a far more perfected state"than that of your recalled "salvation".
Again friends, i give you this thought that has cleared my mind since i'm a member of the Church:
<span style=\'color:purple\'>"For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;" Moses 6:60
Now Paul as to your response to me ans traveler, well i wont answer more of your posts if you dont answer each of the scripture above quoted, in both our posts.
←

SERG

First: Let me apologize if my comment about “some of us need to work” was hurtful in any way. I wasn’t trying to be mean-spirited but was simply trying to state that my lunch hour when I do most of my posting goes by way to fast and I had to get back to work. So accept my apology and I will try to be more careful in what I say.

Issue 1): Transformation vs. obedience

The dictionary states this about transformation “an act, process, or instance of transforming or being transformed.” It also says this about the word transform “to change in character or condition, convert.”

The dictionary states this about obedience “an act or instance of obeying; the quality or state of being obedient.” The word obey has this definition “to follow the commands or guidance of.”

So now that we have identified the definitions here let me follow with a summary of what I have been saying about the work of the Holy Spirit in transforming us. He is working from the inside “changing our fleshly character or condition and converting us into the likeness of Jesus—making us holy as He is holy.” It is my contention that the Bible describes this transforming process as the process where we become obedient to His call as we are transformed, not by our works but by His work in us. Philippians 3:21 says this “He will transform the body of our humble condition into the likeness of His glorious body, by the power that enables Him to subject everything to Himself.” This does not sound like it is something that we can do but it is something God does.

1 Peter 1:15-16 has these words “but, as the One who called you is holy, you also are to be holy in all your conduct for it is written, Be holy, because I am holy.” Does any of this sound like something we can do? NO WAY. You rightly quoted 1 Peter 1:7-9 but you did not address the depth of how much we are dependent on God to make us obedient as we surrender to Him in the verses that surrounded it. Be careful that you don’t just take a few verses but look at the context of the entire message being presented

Just a few verses before the 2 Peter quote you gave we find this -- 2 Peter 1:3-4 “For His divine power has given us everything required for life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and goodness. By these He has given us very great and precious promises, so that through them you may share in the divine nature, escaping the corruption that is in the world because of evil desires.” Here it says He has given us everything required. Again the emphasis on what He has done.

You say that “conversion of a person if seen in order to attain salvation needs both faith and obedience, for one validated the other, no other form”. I agree that works validate faith otherwise as James puts it the faith is dead. Again I say that the only way we can do the works that are described by the Bible is with Him transforming us. Not us performing many works to maintain this salvation. It is Him at work in us to cause us to act according to His will.

Issue 2) Now to the “loosing salvation":

I too agree with what you said “that when we accept Christ we "go from death to life, from shadows to His great light", so we do also as most protestants believe that when we accept Him and enter His body (Church) are "marked" as His (hence we "take His name upon us), His servants and property for He bought us with His blood, and also are "redeemed" from our sins, and death.” I agree that this is what it means to be saved.

Now you should have stopped there because what you state next does not fit the scripture. I will address your use of Hebrews 6 by posting what I have written on this subject in my book:

CAN WE LOSE OUR SALVATION

Several years ago I was asked to teach on the subject “Can one lose their salvation.” Up to that point I had not given much thought to the subject, so I entered into a period of searching the Bible, various commentaries and teachings. The net result of this study was a solid Biblical understanding that if we have truly in our heart accepted Jesus Christ as Savior, taken the free gift of His grace and been washed white as snow with His blood, there is “absolutely no way” we can lose our salvation. Yes, we still sin and come short of God’s best for us, but to go so far as to say we can backslide our way into hell is a mighty big leap into legalistic attitudes and away from God’s grace and mercy. As discussed earlier in the SAVED BY GRACE section, we are not only saved by His grace, but we are kept by His grace. My salvation is not dependent on me, and what I do, but on Him who paid the price and won the victory over sin and death, Jesus Christ, Himself. Again the reader is referred to the much more detailed study on grace and faith in the Appendix.

Now what about the very convincing arguments that say one can lose their salvation? If one ever has the opportunity to listen to or read the writings of someone who believes salvation can be lost, they will probably be directed to the following Bible passages:

Hebrews 6:4-6

This passage speaks about, “those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance…”. This passage, for sure, sounds like one can indeed fall away (lose their salvation), however, if we examine these verses closely in light of the greater context of the Book of Hebrews and other Bible passages, one will see that is not what these verses are saying at all.

The writer of Hebrews presents some very tough words to those who have apparently gotten stuck on the basics of Christianity (verses 5:11-6:3). Their lack of real progress, in the walk of faith, is bad enough; however, a more serious issue is addressed in these verses. Here the Hebrews are rebuked for their spiritual laziness and are compared to little children who can only drink milk but not eat the “real meat of God’s word”. These words of rebuke make it very clear, that those being addressed had not fully understood what Jesus had really accomplished for those who believe. Many of these followers had become discouraged and dissatisfied because there was nothing tangible in the Christian faith that “they could see, handle or touch in the way that Judaism had given them ceremonies, feasts, sacrifices, holy days and rituals.”12 Because of family, or friends or the desire for tangible things they could lay hold of, the Hebrews couldn’t completely abandon the earthly system, of laws and sacrifices that makes up Judaism. For several reasons, they failed to see that real faith in Christ is not the signs, symbols, holy days or rituals, but instead Christ and Christ alone.

This is made more evident in Hebrews 6:1-2, where the readers are told to move on to maturity and not remain unfruitful by following the childish things presented below:

1. “Repentance from dead works” is a direct reference to the ceremonial Levitical law.

2. “Faith toward God” relates to Israel’s devotion to Jehovah, however, Christianity requires us to receive Jesus, the Son of God, as Savior and to look to Him as the Mediator with the Father. Jesus is our great High Priest, as clearly explained in the Book of Hebrews.

3. “Doctrine of baptisms” does not refer to the believers baptism described in Matthew 28:19, or the Baptism of the Holy Spirit presented in Acts 1:5. Instead, the plural word baptisms, found in only two places in the New Testament, is more precisely defined as “washings” described in the old Mosaic law. These “washings” refer to the need for purification in order to approach the Lord. The Hebrews were dependent on these “washings” of the Mosaic covenant, which only dealt with external and temporal things and not with the perfected cleansing obtained through the blood of Jesus.

4. “Laying on of hands” refers back to Leviticus 16:21 where Aaron laid his hands on the head of a live goat and put all of his and Israel’s sins on the goat. With Jesus, however, this practice is no longer needed since He offered “one sacrifice for sins forever” (Hebrews 10:9-13) and sat down at the right hand of God, never again to repeat the sacrifice.

5. “Resurrection of the dead” is a direct reference to the general resurrection that the Pharisees and Sadducees disagreed on and the same one that Martha believed would happen to Lazarus (John 11:24). This was certainly a doctrine under Judaism. In Christianity, we are not taught about a general resurrection of both the just and unjust (Acts 24:14-15), but we are instructed of a first resurrection of the elect, saints only (1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:22-23) and then a second resurrection of the wicked, a thousand years later (Revelation 20:5-6).

6. “And of eternal judgment” also refers to Judaism’s belief in a general judgment, however, the New Testament teaches of a judgment of reward for those who accepted Jesus as Savior and a judgment of the wicked at the “great white throne” a thousand years later.

The writer of Hebrews was warning them not to trust in these things and practices of Judaism for in so doing they were laying again “a foundation” of things, which they had turned from when they confessed Christ. They didn’t need these things for our trust must be in our glorified Savior, Jesus Christ. “If a believer is to be blessed of the Lord, if he is to grow in grace and in the knowledge of the deep things of the Spirit, he must, in all things, at all times, under all circumstances, seek God’s will and God’s glory. If we are to go forward in the truth, we must submit to the leadership of His Spirit, for our spiritual understanding must come from Him. All progress in truth is special and definite gift from the Spirit and a man can receive nothing except it be given him from Heaven (John 3:27).”13

Now that we have the background provided in the previous text, let’s look at versus 4-6 cited earlier. These verses have been the subject of many fierce battles between theologians and various religious groups. It is a well established fact, that around these verses, many “religious people believe it is possible for blood-washed, truly born again believers to sin and backslide to the extent of being lost beyond forgiveness, and eternally damned.”14

Who is the writer of Hebrews describing in these verses? Is he talking of born again Christians, or is he presenting facts about those who have not yet accepted Jesus as Savior. These verses make note of the following five (5) expressions:

1. “Who were once enlightened” has to do with the head understanding of the Gospel. The ear has heard it and the mind understood it, but the heart hasn’t believed. They may even unite with the church, profess Jesus as Savior, and tithe regularly, yet they do not possess eternal life (Hebrews 10:26, Romans 1:16, 1 John 1:7, John 3:19-20 and Matthew 15:8-9).

2. “Tasted of the heavenly gift” is another expression used. What is this heavenly gift? The Bible speaks of this heavenly gift in 2 Corinthians 9:15, John 3:16 and Ephesians 2:8. It is unquestionably the gift of salvation. Does this mean they were Christians? The Christian, however, does more than taste. They eat and assimilate the Word, which is Spirit and life (James 1:21 and John 6:63). Tasting is not enough. We must eat also and these people only tasted the principles of the doctrine of Christ, but as we learned earlier, they were still adhering to Judaism and the Old Testament system of sacrifices and works.

3. “Were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,” sounds as though they were born again Christians, but the Greek word used indicates that they only shared in the benefit of His supernatural operations and manifestations. They had not only witnessed what the Holy Ghost was doing, but also enjoyed the blessings. They can do many Christian things, but still not be a partaker of Divine nature. Those people went along with Christianity to a point then turned back to Judaism or back to trusting in their works. Jesus fully described this in Matthew 7:21-23. They did good things but had never been really born again.

4. “Have tasted the good Word of God,” means they enjoyed the advantages without making the decision to receive Christ by faith, to allow Him to come into their heart. One can read the promises of God found throughout the Bible and profit from them by finding comfort and consolation in them, but still not be born again.

5. “And the powers of the world to come” again emphasizes the word tasting but not fully receiving or embracing. They probably saw “all manners of diseases” cured, the blind receiving sight and the lame walking. These certainly are the powers of the age to come (Isaiah 35:4-6).

In Matthew 12:20-21 Jesus described “the stony ground hearers” who heard the Word, received it with joy, but when troubles came and their faith tested, it was found they had no root. Acts 9 presents Saul’s Damascus road experience but as far as we know only Saul was saved or born again on that day.

Based on this discussion, one must ask “Do you believe that God in His love, Jesus in His saving grace, would put a passage in the New Testament to confuse people and frighten those who have truly been born again? Indeed, He would not!”15 John 3:18 says “He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” It is even possible to be used in the performance of miracles and yet not be truly born again (Matthew 7:22-23). A born again person not only repents of sin, but also experiences these spiritual attributes:

1. Is created in Christ Jesus - Ephesians 2:10

2. Becomes “a new creature” - 2 Corinthians 5:17

3. Had a change of mind - Matthew 21:29, Romans 11:29

4. Salvation without repentance is an impossibility - Luke 13:3-5

5. Called out of darkness into His marvelous light - 1 Peter 2:9

Based on these Biblical understandings, one would be “hard pressed” to use Hebrews 6:4-6, as proof that one can lose their salvation. Other passages of the Bible that are quite often used, similarly, as proof that one can lose their salvation are briefly outlined below:

Hebrews 2:1-3

One who neglects the salvation provided through Jesus will face far more serious consequences than those who transgressed the law. This instruction is not directed to born-again believers, those who are washed in the precious blood of Jesus, but instead to those who hear the Gospel but will not receive it into their hearts (John 12:48, Hebrews 12:6-8). The writer of Hebrews was trying to impress upon the hearts of his readers that every transgression and disobedience to God’s revealed will received just judgment under the Old Testament law. Since this is true how can we escape judgment if we neglect the message delivered by God’s own Son?

Hebrews 4:1-2

To understand this passage, one must begin their evaluation in 3:12 and complete it in 4:12. Many times the writer, of this epistle, calls on his readers to examine themselves in the light of God’s revelation through His Son Jesus. This chapter opens the same way, the connecting verse 3:19 states, “they could not enter in because of unbelief” which is the same admonition to the readers of this epistle. The message of grace, just like the promise to the Israelites coming out of Egypt, began with the Lord and confirmed by those who heard and believed Him, promises eternal life to ALL who believe. This New Testament promise will be fully kept just as the promise of entering into the Promised Land for the Israelites was kept by God (Mark 16:16, John 3:36). The writer discusses how the Israelite fathers failed to receive the promise because of unbelief, which also applies to those who, by unbelief, fail to receive eternal rest in Christ Jesus. The promise of God’s rest is still valid and those who believe will enter that rest. To “come short” indicates a failure to reach the promised rest God has for His own. The falling short comes when one refuses to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and trust Him as their Savior. Do these verses indicate that a truly born again, redeemed child of God can come short of entering the rest provided, through Jesus, to the saints? The answer for this question can be found in Romans 8:31-39. The admonition given in Hebrews 4:1-2 is that every man who hears the Word of God will truly hear, obey with Godly fear, and make sure his or her position before God is founded on faith in what Jesus Christ has accomplished for us and nothing else. The message, of these verses, is clearly to all who had stopped short of complete trust in the finished work of Jesus (1 Peter 1:10).

Hebrews 10:26-31

Similar to the discussion presented on Hebrews 6:4-6, this passage is often quoted as one indicating salvation can be lost, but again, the greater context of this passage does not lend itself to this interpretation. The sin referred to here is the sin of willful apostasy and abandonment of a professed faith. They, who once had embraced Christianity, turned away from Judaism and the legal sacrifices for sin and now have abandoned Christianity to turn back to Judaism. They turned their backs on the one sacrifice that Christ made and therefore, have no other sacrifice that would cleanse them of their sin and assure them entrance into heaven.

Now those who believe this passage refers to the born again believers must take heed of the difference between “merely receiving the knowledge of the truth” and “receiving the finished work of Christ by faith and being born of the Spirit.” To receive the knowledge is only, a mental understanding whereas the latter is the true heart relationship. 1 John 3:9 states “Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for His seed remains in him and he cannot sin because he is born of God.” This passage deals with whosoever is born of God not whosoever joins the church, sings in the choir, and is baptized and especially “not because he endures, perseveres, holds on, holds out, stays in, or does his best. But because the seed of God is in the inner man, Divine nature cannot sin.”16 Other passages in the Bible that reiterate the same truth are: John 3:6, Romans 6:12-13, Romans 8:23, Romans 8:29, Romans 12:1-2, 1 Corinthians 3:16, 1 Corinthians 10:31, 2 Corinthians 6:17, Philippians 1:6, 1 Peter 1:23, 2 Peter 1:4, 1 John 2:1-2, 1 John 2:15, and 1 John 3:1.

This does not mean that truly born again people will never ever sin again because our old flesh (the old man) still wants to rule. The need to continually crucify the flesh and humbly seek God for victory will always be with us during our earthly lives, whereas, those who are not truly born again have no intention of seeking and submitting to God. The Apostle Paul describes the answer to this battle between the flesh and the spirit in Romans 7:14-8:15.

People who profess to be Christians but are continually living in sin, practicing sin, living very worldly lives have never been born again. This warning was to the Hebrews who had received the knowledge of the truth but had not received the TRUTH, Jesus Christ the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE (John 14:6). They turned their backs on Christ having once professed that they believed but one must wonder whether they had really received. They hadn’t put their faith in Jesus’ shed blood. They knew about His blood being shed but had rejected its cleansing power. They are warned, in this passage, as are their many counterparts of today that nothing now is left but the certainty of tremendous fiery judgment (Revelation 6:15-17 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9).

The born-again believer will pursue perfection and hunger for holiness, not because, we are someone special but because of God’s work in us. We only will attain that perfection, through Jesus Christ, when we reach the end of our earthly life. “It is not through perfect peace and perfect holiness that we see the Lord: it is by grace through faith! When we have been saved by God’s grace, we are to pursue peace and holiness; but we see Jesus because we are covered by the blood and saved by His marvelous grace”17 (1 Thessalonians 5:23). The Bible references that God deals with us, in the use of the terms blood and consuming fire. If we have truly accepted Jesus as Savior, we are covered by His blood and we will escape the fiery judgment, but if we reject Him as the perfect blood sacrifice, then the only thing left, is to be cast into the lake of fire with the devil and his angels (Revelation 20:15).

As presented above, the scriptures often quoted indicating a born again believer could lose their salvation are usually taken out of scriptural context. During this study on this subject I also ran across many scriptures that clearly pointed to the fact that our salvation is purely and totally in God’s hands. The scriptures presented on the following Exhibit A are just a few that state salvation once obtained cannot be lost for it is God who accomplishes it.

EXHIBIT A

Isaiah 1:16-20 Sins as scarlet made white as snow

Isaiah 12:1-3 The Lord is my strength and my song

Mark 9:41 Can’t lose reward

Luke 15:7 Why the celebration if we can lose salvation

John 6:27 Food that endures to eternal life

John 6:44 I will raise him up at the last day

John 10:28 Can’t be plucked from His hand

John 17:11-12 None has been lost except Judas

Acts 4:12 No other name by which we are saved

Romans 5:8-11 Justified and saved by Jesus

Romans 8:12-17 Received the spirit of sonship

Romans 8:28-39 Who can take us away from His love

Romans 9:15-24 God decides on the call

Romans 10:9-11 Confession and belief lead to salvation

Romans 11:28-31 The gift is irrevocable

2 Cor. 1:18-22 Who has sealed us by the Spirit

Galatians 4:4-7 Adopted sons and heirs

Ephesians 1:3-6 Predestined as adopted sons

Ephesians 1:11-14 Sealed by the Holy Spirit

Ephesians 4:30 Sealed for the day of redemption

Philippians 1:3-6 He who began a good work

Philippians 2:12-16 Work out salvation with fear and trembling

1 Thess. 5:8-9 God did not suffer us to wrath

2 Thess. 2:13-15 Saved by sanctifying work of the Spirit

2 Timothy 2:19 Foundation stands having this seal

Titus 3:4-7 Saved not by works but by His mercy

Hebrews 12:1-2 He is the author and finisher of our faith

1 Peter 1:3 Gift of salvation protected in heaven

2 Peter 1:3-4 Divine power gives us everything

Revelation 7:10 Salvation by His grace

Revelation 19:1 Salvation belongs to God

Revelation 22:17 Take free gift of water of life

So which do you accept that after all Christ did for you on the cross that it is now necessary to live your life in hopes that you can do enough to keep that salvation He bought with His precious blood. This is what Paul asked the Galatians. It seems to me that if God went so far to die for us so we could be saved that He is also able to keep us.

The efforts to keep ourselves pure must be driven by the power of the Holy Spirit from within not as some effort that we put forth.

I hope I have addressed this aspect of losing our salvation. TILL NEXT POST

Serg · November 23, 2005

Again Paul, i thank your post, but you only grasp part of our deal here.

First: I know and understand your position towards salvation

Second: You have not refuted my last post, you have shown me your understanding of it but not the scriptural justice of it.

Why did Jesus teach that not all who call them Lord, Lord, will save themselves but those who DO the WILL of His Father, His commandments, again how can you justify John's epistle ALL about commandments?

Again as to Jesus' saying of them who only call Him Lord, dont even try to pull the argument of that such persons are not yet converted for He says that they DO in fact call Him Lord and Paul told us in Corinthians that NO one can call Him Lord if not by His Spirit and His witness, so they are those who HAVE converted and felt the Spirit but have failed to persue perfection, this is to be obedient.

Also , your discourse on Hebrews 6 and how its about people that arent yet converted its so far from being the case, if you study the Hebrews through out, youll see an emphasis on the CHANGE from jewish tradition to christianity and also the remarks of Paul towards the CONVERTED people of Christianity having befor been jews, so they DID taste the heveanly gift, to say otherwise is not only to deny scripture but a whole pile of even protestant theologians who agree with me in such interpretation...Also if such expressions that resemble the deep conversion of them are not truly reffering to their conversion and their "salvation"state already attained, how then will he describe the real experiences of those who really convert????

For how whould he adress those who really converted if not by saying "tasted the heavenly gift""the Holy Ghost" Etc... and also watch closely Hebrews 2, when he states : 3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and bwonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Now Paul, how can he warn them not to LOSE their salvation if they in fact cant? How van you lose something you dont have?(if your planning to say that they were converts yet to recieve it) But isnt Paul himself including himself there? So what about Pauls statement of yet having reached the Ultimate Perfection, to the Philipians? Or when he asserted Timothy that he already had attained it?

Please if we must study Paul's mind states while writting his epistles why not also the historical part? For we see a progress! He first wrote to the philipians saying he yet had attain the crown of salvation, but later in time, by his endurance in the Faith(with works) he asserts Timothy that he already had it! He was sure of it in the END of his life!

Well, please answer me but with the same scriptures i have shown post after post .

( and dont forget our little talk on 3rd Nephi :))

Regards brother,

Traveler · November 23, 2005

Originally posted by paul6150@Nov 22 2005, 09:00 PM
[
So which do you accept that after all Christ did for you on the cross that it is now necessary to live your life in hopes that you can do enough to keep that salvation He bought with His precious blood. This is what Paul asked the Galatians. It seems to me that if God went so far to die for us so we could be saved that He is also able to keep us.
The efforts to keep ourselves pure must be driven by the power of the Holy Spirit from within not as some effort that we put forth.
I hope I have addressed this aspect of losing our salvation. TILL NEXT POST
←

This is the nuttest possible of all ideas. So we are to believe that being loving, kind and compassionant (as to the example of G-d and his Son) has no eternal worth, value or consiquence? That G-d hates a man that fosters love in his heart because of his belief in G-d and his own effort and desire for good things therefore G-d will not allow good effort in his kingdom? Nonsense - such thinking puts truth and justice upside down and would makes G-d as evil as Satan. If G-d is just he will love and reward every good deed. It is Satan that wants to punish and withhold blessings to those that do good things.

I just do not understand - how can someone teach against the eternal power of doing good and say they love G-d? To imply that doing good has no eternal value is to teach G-d has no eternal value for G-d does indeed do good. And to claim there is no eternal reward for good is to hate justice.

The Traveler

Traveler · November 23, 2005

Originally posted by paul6150@Nov 22 2005, 09:00 PM
So which do you accept that after all Christ did for you on the cross that it is now necessary to live your life in hopes that you can do enough to keep that salvation He bought with His precious blood. This is what Paul asked the Galatians. It seems to me that if God went so far to die for us so we could be saved that He is also able to keep us.
←

Again as I review this last thought I cannot believe how wrong it is for any Christian. It is clear that Christ died for all. There is not one human that has lived that G-d did not give his life for - and we also know that he cannot keep every one only those that repent.

The Traveler

paul6150 · November 26, 2005

Originally posted by Traveler+Nov 23 2005, 09:35 AM-->
<!--QuoteBegin-paul6150@Nov 22 2005, 09:00 PM
So which do you accept that after all Christ did for you on the cross that it is now necessary to live your life in hopes that you can do enough to keep that salvation He bought with His precious blood. This is what Paul asked the Galatians. It seems to me that if God went so far to die for us so we could be saved that He is also able to keep us.
←
Again as I review this last thought I cannot believe how wrong it is for any Christian. It is clear that Christ died for all. There is not one human that has lived that G-d did not give his life for - and we also know that he cannot keep every one only those that repent.
The Traveler
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SERG, TRAVELER AND OTHERS

Just a quick post of one scripture since I am working on a deeper study of Hebrews 6 to address your belief that one when they are truely saved by the Lord Jesus can lose their salvation. When I get through with my study I will post about it. The scripture I share here is in Galatians 3 (New Living Translation):

Galatians 3:1-6 Oh, foolish Galatians! What magician has cast an evil spell on you? For you used to see the meaning of Jesus Christ's death as clearly as though I had shown you a signboard with a picture of Christ dying on the cross. Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit by keeping the law? Of course not, for the Holy Spirit came upon you only after you believed the message you heard about Christ. Have you lost your senses? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? You have suffered so much for the Good News. Surely it was not in vain, was it? Are you now going to just throw it all away? I ask you again, does God give you the Holy Spirit and work miracles among you because you obey the Law of Moses? Of course not! It is because you believe the message you heard about Christ. In the same way, "Abraham believed God, so God declared him righteous because of his faith."

Now here is just another Bible passage that verifies it is about Acknowledging your a sinner needing a Savior; Believing in the Lord Jesus and accepting His free gift of grace; and Confessing you are a sinner and that you now take His payment on the cross for your sins and making Him Lord and Savior. PERIOD THAT IS IT FOR IF YOU TRUELY BELIEVED IN YOUR HEART AND TRUELY CONFESSED WITH YOUR MOUTH YOU ARE SAVED. FOR HE LOOKS AT THE HEART AND KNOWS WHAT YOU REALLY BELIEVED.

After this He will help you, guide you and chastise you if necessary so as you become more like Him.

I WILL BE BACK WITH MORE POSTS.

paul6150 · November 26, 2005

Originally posted by Traveler+Nov 23 2005, 09:35 AM-->
<!--QuoteBegin-paul6150@Nov 22 2005, 09:00 PM
So which do you accept that after all Christ did for you on the cross that it is now necessary to live your life in hopes that you can do enough to keep that salvation He bought with His precious blood. This is what Paul asked the Galatians. It seems to me that if God went so far to die for us so we could be saved that He is also able to keep us.
←
Again as I review this last thought I cannot believe how wrong it is for any Christian. It is clear that Christ died for all. There is not one human that has lived that G-d did not give his life for - and we also know that he cannot keep every one only those that repent.
The Traveler
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A QUICK POSTSCRIPT; TRAVELER I HAVE NOTICED THAT IN ALL YOUR POSTS YOU TYPE G-D AND NOT SPELL OUT GOD. WHY IS THAT?

Traveler · November 26, 2005

Originally posted by paul6150+Nov 25 2005, 05:40 PM-->
Originally posted by Traveler@Nov 23 2005, 09:35 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-paul6150@Nov 22 2005, 09:00 PM
So which do you accept that after all Christ did for you on the cross that it is now necessary to live your life in hopes that you can do enough to keep that salvation He bought with His precious blood. This is what Paul asked the Galatians. It seems to me that if God went so far to die for us so we could be saved that He is also able to keep us.
←
Again as I review this last thought I cannot believe how wrong it is for any Christian. It is clear that Christ died for all. There is not one human that has lived that G-d did not give his life for - and we also know that he cannot keep every one only those that repent.
The Traveler
←
A QUICK POSTSCRIPT; TRAVELER I HAVE NOTICED THAT IN ALL YOUR POSTS YOU TYPE G-D AND NOT SPELL OUT GOD. WHY IS THAT?
←

Two reasons:

1. To insure that I always remember that any reference to G-d should be guarded and treated as sacred.

2. In many parts of the world the only exposer some people have to Christian ideas is from the internet. In any Islamic country it is against the law to copy material where G-d is spelled out. So I have developed this habit as a service to them and others that are uncomfortable to the liberal use fostered in our society.

As a side note: All ancient copies of scripture made similar modifications in reference to G-d. If we respect the ancients we must consider the possibility that something has been lost to our society about using G-d's name. But this is speculation on my part. It is not my place to criticize anyone else in this manner except that they indicate a lack of respect for G-d or others efforts to maintain sacredness in referencing G-d.

Thanks for asking.

The Traveler

Traveler · November 26, 2005

Originally posted by paul6150+Nov 25 2005, 05:38 PM-->
Originally posted by Traveler@Nov 23 2005, 09:35 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-paul6150@Nov 22 2005, 09:00 PM
So which do you accept that after all Christ did for you on the cross that it is now necessary to live your life in hopes that you can do enough to keep that salvation He bought with His precious blood. This is what Paul asked the Galatians. It seems to me that if God went so far to die for us so we could be saved that He is also able to keep us.
←
Again as I review this last thought I cannot believe how wrong it is for any Christian. It is clear that Christ died for all. There is not one human that has lived that G-d did not give his life for - and we also know that he cannot keep every one only those that repent.
The Traveler
←
His free gift of grace; and Confessing you are a sinner and that you now take His payment on the cross for your sins and making Him Lord and Savior. PERIOD THAT IS IT FOR IF YOU TRUELY BELIEVED IN YOUR HEART AND TRUELY CONFESSED WITH YOUR MOUTH YOU ARE SAVED. FOR HE LOOKS AT THE HEART AND KNOWS WHAT YOU REALLY BELIEVED.
After this He will help you, guide you and chastise you if necessary so as you become more like Him.
I WILL BE BACK WITH MORE POSTS.
←

I have no problem with confessing sin - nor do I see any problem in accepting the atonement of Christ. I have problem with those that teach that those that accept Christ have no obligation to live according to G-d command than those that have no access to the good news. What-ever excuse there is to sin - I am against it, specially if it comes from someone claiming to be born of the spirit. The holy spirit does not teach that sin is okay if you are saved.

That G-d would save anyone that refuses to give away their sins is stupid. It does not matter if you have confessed Christ or have no idea of Christ - if you do not repent of every sin you will be held accountable. Those that repent will be forgiven. If you know of Christ but refuse to repent on just one single sin you will held guilty of all.

The good news I extend to all is that through faith in Christ if you will but repent G-d will forgive you. If you do not repent you have no forgiveness. And my friends if you repent and put away your sins that you know them no more your life will become filled with good works that will shine before man and glorify G-d. Those that claim to know G-d and refuse to shine the light of his glory will realize that such thinking has eternal consequences - it is why the scriptures warn us - for our eternal benefit.

The Traveler

paul6150 · November 27, 2005

Originally posted by Traveler+Nov 26 2005, 12:31 PM-->
Originally posted by paul6150@Nov 25 2005, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by Traveler@Nov 23 2005, 09:35 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-paul6150@Nov 22 2005, 09:00 PM
So which do you accept that after all Christ did for you on the cross that it is now necessary to live your life in hopes that you can do enough to keep that salvation He bought with His precious blood. This is what Paul asked the Galatians. It seems to me that if God went so far to die for us so we could be saved that He is also able to keep us.
←
Again as I review this last thought I cannot believe how wrong it is for any Christian. It is clear that Christ died for all. There is not one human that has lived that G-d did not give his life for - and we also know that he cannot keep every one only those that repent.
The Traveler
←
His free gift of grace; and Confessing you are a sinner and that you now take His payment on the cross for your sins and making Him Lord and Savior. PERIOD THAT IS IT FOR IF YOU TRUELY BELIEVED IN YOUR HEART AND TRUELY CONFESSED WITH YOUR MOUTH YOU ARE SAVED. FOR HE LOOKS AT THE HEART AND KNOWS WHAT YOU REALLY BELIEVED.
After this He will help you, guide you and chastise you if necessary so as you become more like Him.
I WILL BE BACK WITH MORE POSTS.
←
I have no problem with confessing sin - nor do I see any problem in accepting the atonement of Christ. I have problem with those that teach that those that accept Christ have no obligation to live according to G-d command than those that have no access to the good news. What-ever excuse there is to sin - I am against it, specially if it comes from someone claiming to be born of the spirit. The holy spirit does not teach that sin is okay if you are saved.
That G-d would save anyone that refuses to give away their sins is stupid. It does not matter if you have confessed Christ or have no idea of Christ - if you do not repent of every sin you will be held accountable. Those that repent will be forgiven. If you know of Christ but refuse to repent on just one single sin you will held guilty of all.
The good news I extend to all is that through faith in Christ if you will but repent G-d will forgive you. If you do not repent you have no forgiveness. And my friends if you repent and put away your sins that you know them no more your life will become filled with good works that will shine before man and glorify G-d. Those that claim to know G-d and refuse to shine the light of his glory will realize that such thinking has eternal consequences - it is why the scriptures warn us - for our eternal benefit.
The Traveler
←

Hey Traveler

You are pretty close to my understanding in that repentance of sin is necessary because if there is no repentance of sin then the one asking God to forgive them is only fooling themself.

The place that we differ yet is that you say that if you do not repent of one sin you are again guilty of them all. The Bible is clear that once we repent, turn to God and accept Jesus as savior we are a new creation in Christ Jesus the old has past away. All the sins of are past are "as far as the east is from the west" out of God's mind. Future sins are covered by the blood of Jesus however He does want us to recognize we have again failed and ask for forgiveness of these sins though (1 John).

This is where the Holy Spirit convicts us when we do sin and helps us recognize the sin.

Thanks for your explanation of the G-d thing that you use. Interesting.

Paul

Serg · November 28, 2005

Again Paul, we agree in that of our change of state, and repentance and all. But you seem...well, i sincerely believe that its your work stuff that without time leaves you too busy, but again, the passage in Galatians reffers to the Law of Moses, not the Law of christ, . Anyways another good scripture is that in Acts, 5:32 which says: "And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him."

So here the conflict is whether "obey"reffers to keep the commandments(as Jesus said Jn.14:15), or following the "only" command to "accept" Jesus ....

Here again, regards

Serg · November 28, 2005

Also dont forget our little treatsie on 3rd Nephi

paul6150 · November 28, 2005

Originally posted by Serg@Nov 28 2005, 12:12 PM
Again Paul, we agree in that of our change of state, and repentance and all. But you seem...well, i sincerely believe that its your work stuff that without time leaves you too busy, but again, the passage in Galatians reffers to the Law of Moses, not the Law of christ, . Anyways another good scripture is that in Acts, 5:32 which says: "And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him."
So here the conflict is whether "obey"reffers to keep the commandments(as Jesus said Jn.14:15), or following the "only" command to "accept" Jesus ....
Here again, regards
←

SERG

I disagree with your take on the Galatians passage I posted before for it does apply to salvation by grace versus salvation by works. Let me post the passage again so we can analyze it.

Galatians 3:1-6 Oh, foolish Galatians! What magician has cast an evil spell on you? For you used to see the meaning of Jesus Christ's death as clearly as though I had shown you a signboard with a picture of Christ dying on the cross. Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit by keeping the law? Of course not, for the Holy Spirit came upon you only after you believed the message you heard about Christ. Have you lost your senses? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? You have suffered so much for the Good News. Surely it was not in vain, was it? Are you now going to just throw it all away? I ask you again, does God give you the Holy Spirit and work miracles among you because you obey the Law of Moses? Of course not! It is because you believe the message you heard about Christ. In the same way, "Abraham believed God, so God declared him righteous because of his faith."

Paul asks them if "...the Holy Spirit came upon you only after you believed the message you heard about Christ" OR did it come upon them by keeping the Law. Yes it does, as you stated, refer to the Galatians practice of intermixing Mosaic Law requirements with the teachings about God's grace that Paul had brought to them; however, this applies also to any efforts we make in trying to keep any commandments in our own strength in order to be saved. Paul tells the Galatians that the Holy Spirit (the guarantee deposit of our salvation) came to them because they believed what they heard about Jesus atoning sacrifice on the cross. In Acts 16:29-31 the Philippian jailer asked "What must I do to be saved" Peter's response was "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved - you and your household." He didn't say keep all of my commandments and then you will be saved. He said "BELIEVE" just as John 3:18 puts it also.

Paul also said to the Galatians "After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?" As I have posted before it is not our human effort that makes us the vessels He wantsus to be. It is Him working in us to will and do as He pleases. Yes the Galatians were reverting back to Judiasm's practices but the human efforts to earn salvation or keep our salvation is also applicable here. It doesn't matter what efforts we make, or what works we complete or what commandments we keep that gets us into heaven. It is His grace and His grace alone that will get us there. Our works that He does in us after we are saved is part of the work of the Holy Spirit changing us from the inside.

Traveler · November 29, 2005

Originally posted by paul6150@Nov 27 2005, 07:21 AM
You are pretty close to my understanding in that repentance of sin is necessary because if there is no repentance of sin then the one asking God to forgive them is only fooling themself.
The place that we differ yet is that you say that if you do not repent of one sin you are again guilty of them all. The Bible is clear that once we repent, turn to God and accept Jesus as savior we are a new creation in Christ Jesus the old has past away. All the sins of are past are "as far as the east is from the west" out of God's mind. Future sins are covered by the blood of Jesus however He does want us to recognize we have again failed and ask for forgiveness of these sins though (1 John).
This is where the Holy Spirit convicts us when we do sin and helps us recognize the sin.
Thanks for your explanation of the G-d thing that you use. Interesting.
Paul
←

I could play the little game of my favorite scriptures are better than your favorite scriptures. But since Jesus had no better success playing this game with the Pharisees or with Satan (Luke chapter 4) and since Jesus, the Pharisees and Satan are a lot smarter and better with the scriptures than me, I see no point. You and I are both quite capable of reading scriptures and getting something quite different from them. If you really want and really think it will make a difference I will come with my truck load of scriptures and dump them on your ideas and you can continue to do the same with me. I will however drop one little, not so important, scripture – James 2:10. This is because James is going over the guilty of anything you are guilty of breaking the whole law thing. But since you already don’t believe it you can play the scripture switch game and continue on your merry way.

What I don’t get about your post is the notion that G-d is only going to punish those that really do not know any better. This is not my idea of a just and merciful G-d and makes zero sense to me. The one’s that have the spirit making sure they know all the good stuff to do and the bad stuff not to do – it really does not matter for them because G-d just does not care if those types sin or not because they performed the special ritual and incantation and they are forever off the hook??? They know tons more than anyone else but G-d does not care because he is pleased beyond belief only with the said ritual and incantation thing and nothing else so they have a back door pass (only allowable pass) into heaven??? I think it is quite an accomplishment that this is the main point of creation and human experience that you have gleaned from the scriptures. However, this is about 180 degrees out of whack with my take of the scriptures – including, as an example, the parable of the Good Samaritan. The Samaritans were not the saved-by-ritual-and-incantation group if ever there was one. Jesus would not even go to teach that bunch of slime-crud. The priest and Levite are supposed to be the privileged-if-there-is-a-selected-saved of G-d group.

You can bet your soul on whatever ideas you want and you can quote whatever scripture you want to excuse it. As for me I plan on doing the Good Samaritan thing plus for every oops thing I plan on doing the lowly publican thing of begging for forgiveness every chance I get right up to when I have to make an account of my “works” before G-d. Good luck with your plan – if we get a chance, let’s get together after all the mortal dust settles, you let me know how it turns out for you and I’ll do the same about me for you.

The Traveler

sonofpaul · December 1, 2005

Hello All,

I am new to this conversation. It is interesting up to now.

I could play the little game of my favorite scriptures are better than your favorite scriptures. But since Jesus had no better success playing this game with the Pharisees or with Satan (Luke chapter 4) and since Jesus, the Pharisees and Satan are a lot smarter and better with the scriptures than me, I see no point. You and I are both quite capable of reading scriptures and getting something quite different from them. If you really want and really think it will make a difference I will come with my truck load of scriptures and dump them on your ideas and you can continue to do the same with me. I will however drop one little, not so important, scripture – James 2:10. This is because James is going over the guilty of anything you are guilty of breaking the whole law thing. But since you already don’t believe it you can play the scripture switch game and continue on your merry way.
What I don’t get about your post is the notion that G-d is only going to punish those that really do not know any better. This is not my idea of a just and merciful G-d and makes zero sense to me. The one’s that have the spirit making sure they know all the good stuff to do and the bad stuff not to do – it really does not matter for them because G-d just does not care if those types sin or not because they performed the special ritual and incantation and they are forever off the hook??? They know tons more than anyone else but G-d does not care because he is pleased beyond belief only with the said ritual and incantation thing and nothing else so they have a back door pass (only allowable pass) into heaven??? I think it is quite an accomplishment that this is the main point of creation and human experience that you have gleaned from the scriptures. However, this is about 180 degrees out of whack with my take of the scriptures – including, as an example, the parable of the Good Samaritan. The Samaritans were not the saved-by-ritual-and-incantation group if ever there was one. Jesus would not even go to teach that bunch of slime-crud. The priest and Levite are supposed to be the privileged-if-there-is-a-selected-saved of G-d group.
You can bet your soul on whatever ideas you want and you can quote whatever scripture you want to excuse it. As for me I plan on doing the Good Samaritan thing plus for every oops thing I plan on doing the lowly publican thing of begging for forgiveness every chance I get right up to when I have to make an account of my “works” before G-d. Good luck with your plan – if we get a chance, let’s get together after all the mortal dust settles, you let me know how it turns out for you and I’ll do the same about me for you.
The Traveler

I have one question for Traveler.

Do you know what the terms Exegesis and Eisegesis mean?

Thanks

Son of Paul

Traveler · December 1, 2005

Originally posted by sonofpaul@Dec 1 2005, 04:01 AM
Hello All,
I am new to this conversation. It is interesting up to now.
I have one question for Traveler.
Do you know what the terms Exegesis and Eisegesis mean?
Thanks
Son of Paul
←

No I don't - They are not used in scripture, they are not in my dictionary nor are they used in any religious setting with which I am familiar.

The Traveler

sonofpaul · December 1, 2005

No I don't - They are not used in scripture, they are not in my dictionary nor are they used in any religious setting with which I am familiar.

The Traveler

Exegesis (from the Greek ἐξηγεῖσθαι 'to lead out') means "to draw the meaning out of" a given text.

Traditional exegesis requires the following:
1. Analysis of significant words in the text in regard to translation
2. Examination of the general historical and cultural context
3. Confirmation of the limits of the passage
4. Examination of the context within the text.

Eisegesis means to read one's own interpretation into a given text.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exegesis

When you use verses from the Bible, do you follow the Exegetical Meaning of that verse or do you bring your own interpretation to the verses?

Son of Paul

Traveler · December 2, 2005

Originally posted by sonofpaul@Dec 1 2005, 08:26 AM

No I don't - They are not used in scripture, they are not in my dictionary nor are they used in any religious setting with which I am familiar.

The Traveler

Exegesis (from the Greek ἐξηγεῖσθαι 'to lead out') means "to draw the meaning out of" a given text.

Traditional exegesis requires the following:
1. Analysis of significant words in the text in regard to translation
2. Examination of the general historical and cultural context
3. Confirmation of the limits of the passage
4. Examination of the context within the text.

Eisegesis means to read one's own interpretation into a given text.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exegesis
When you use verses from the Bible, do you follow the Exegetical Meaning of that verse or do you bring your own interpretation to the verses?
Son of Paul
←

I believe scripture is not “THE” source of truth but a “means” of introducing truth.

The truth of scripture is dimensional and hidden from the world. It can only be understood: First by study (seek and you shall find), second by covenant, third by trial and forth through manifestations of the spirit. When I say dimensional I mean at least two things: That is “type and shadow” where keys of past open future and vise versa (see Ecel 1:9-10) and second parallel or layered like an onion. Beyond one understanding is another or line upon line upon line upon line.

Example Malachi 3:10. By study we learn of tithing. By covenant we make a plan and a promise to “prove G-d”. By trial we establish our tithing (during good times and difficult times). Then and only then can the manifestation of the spirit reveal the “windows of heaven” and blessing granted by G-d. Then as we continue to study, covenant, remain loyal in trial we continue to a new level of manifestation of G-d’s love pronouncing blessings and knowledge of tithing. Those that say they understand Malachi 3:10 but do not tithe cannot possibly be telling the truth regardless of how smart or cleaver they are concerning the words, text and structure of the scripture.

The Traveler

Traveler · December 2, 2005

If a person considers any eternal blessing from G-d (other than remission of sins) as associated to or part of their salvation then works are an essential element of that salvation. If, however, salvation is only considered to be remission of sins then there is no concern of works beyond faith in Jesus Christ, repentance and Baptism.

I am not sure I understand what some are thinking but if anyone desires and seeks the vast opportunities for eternal blessings from G-d they will gladly and willing seek to qualify in every way possible according to the covenants, commands, will and advice of G-d.

Therefore I declare in the spirit to bring blessings to all that desire G-d’s blessings – It is good and beneficial to obey all G-d’s commandments both to those that obey and to all they serve. It is not a good thing to ever reject with any excuse any commandment of G-d. Anyone suggesting G-d can be loved without keeping G-d’s commandments are not telling the truth – nor are they even capable of telling the truth.

The Traveler

paul6150 · December 2, 2005

Originally posted by Traveler@Dec 1 2005, 06:59 PM
If a person considers any eternal blessing from G-d (other than remission of sins) as associated to or part of their salvation then works are an essential element of that salvation. If, however, salvation is only considered to be remission of sins then there is no concern of works beyond faith in Jesus Christ, repentance and Baptism.
I am not sure I understand what some are thinking but if anyone desires and seeks the vast opportunities for eternal blessings from G-d they will gladly and willing seek to qualify in every way possible according to the covenants, commands, will and advice of G-d.
Therefore I declare in the spirit to bring blessings to all that desire G-d’s blessings – It is good and beneficial to obey all G-d’s commandments both to those that obey and to all they serve. It is not a good thing to ever reject with any excuse any commandment of G-d. Anyone suggesting G-d can be loved without keeping G-d’s commandments are not telling the truth – nor are they even capable of telling the truth.
The Traveler
←

TRAVELER

THOSE OF US WHO ARE POSTING ON THIS SITE WHO ARE NOT LDS HAVE NOT INDICATED THAT OBEYING THE COMMANDMENTS OR GOOD WORKS ARE NOT NECESSARY AFTER THE SALVATION EXPERIENCE.

What we have said is that when we surrender to God and accept His free gift of salvation through the work of Christ Jesus that "God" from that point on will work in us and through us to glorify Himself. Therefore works will happen as we surrender but they will be Him working through us, helping us to love our neighbor, helping us to not be a stingy person but instead to be giving person, etc. etc.

That is what we are saying nothing more nothing less as to the work of God after salvation and our adoption into God's family. Now on the contrary the BOM and LDS teaching continue to require one in their own strength to keep commandments with only a "maybe" they will be saved. For example I ask you look up these BOM passages:

Mosiah 18:8-13 (Mosiah 9:38-44 RLDS) presents some of Alma’s teaching on what was necessary to join the “fold of God and to be called his people” and to be granted eternal life. Some of these criterions are as follows:

1). “Willing to bear one another’s burdens”

2). “Willing to mourn with those that mourn.”

3). Comfort those who need comfort

4). “Stand as witnesses of God at all times, and in all things and in all places … even until death.”

5). Be baptized in the name of the Lord.

6). Serve him and keep his commandments… “Serve him until you are dead as to the mortal body.”

Alma further instructed the people that after they performed all of these things “ye may be redeemed of God…ye may have eternal life…and may he grant unto you eternal life…” (Emphasis added).

As noted the BOM sets up a whole list of works that need to be completed and maybe, just maybe, God will redeem you and grant you eternal life. Whatever happened to “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but has everlasting life… He that believes on Him is not condemned but he that does not believe is already condemned because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” John 3:16, 18 (emphasis added).

Alma 7:14 (Alma 5:24-25 RLDS) The first part of this verse emphasizes the need to “repent and be born again…” but then emphasizes the need to “be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God….” (Emphasis added). Later in verse 16 (verse 28 RLDS) we read “And whosoever doeth this, and keepeth the commandments of God from thenceforth… he shall have eternal life….” The BOM continues to place considerable emphasis on being baptized and keeping the commandments (our works) in order to be saved or maybe saved.

Alma 9:11-14, Alma 38:1 (Alma 7:12-17, Alma 18:1 RLDS) These passages first state that one is saved by “his matchless power, and his mercy, and his long suffering towards us…” and except we repent “ye can in nowise inherit the Kingdom of God.” As in many other parts of the BOM, within a few verses of the correct message (God saves us by the work of Jesus Christ and His grace), we find such statements as “Inasmuch as ye will not keep my commandments ye shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord.” The Lamanites didn’t keep the commandments of God and “they have been cut from the presence of the Lord.” Keeping the commands of the Lord is necessary to staying in the presence of the Lord. This idea is true, to a limited extent, in that if we don’t keep His commands He can’t work with us as well, however, the Bible emphasizes that He will be with the believer “at all times” and He will not leave or forsake us (Hebrews 13:5-6). The BOM suggests that if one doesn’t keep the commandments they could end up in “endless damnation” (Mosiah 16:11 LDS, Mosiah 8:84-85 RLDS).

Alma 13:29-30 (Alma 10:29-30 RLDS) mixes the grace and works message in that it states: “Having faith on the Lord… ye shall receive eternal life,” “…that ye may be lifted up…” “And may the Lord grant unto you repentance that ye may not bring down his wrath upon you, that ye may not be bound down by the chains of hell, that ye may not suffer the second death.” (Emphasis added). The Bible says that “if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” 1 John 1:9 and “that if thou shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved” (Romans 10:9-10). These are just a few verses of the Bible that leave us with the surety that if He has saved us then we can know for sure we are going to heaven.

I have others but I don't want this post to get to long. Maybe next round of posting.

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