What Are The Requirements For Salvation?

[Ray]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain+Dec 6 2005, 07:29 PM-->

Originally posted by Ray+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ray)

And btw, don’t get the idea that your true knowledge and experiences in another religion [emphasis mine] wouldn’t benefit you as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, either.  As President Hinckley has said, bring all the good you have with you, and see if we can add to it.

Ray, you have unintentionally highlighted a key issue. Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints one of many denominations within the greater Christian family, or it it another religion? I suppose the answer is YES. It's another denomination, in that members affirm much of what the rest of Christianity does, including being born again. YES it's another religion, in that some of its distinctives are strong enough that even you refer evangelicalism (or perhaps Pentecostalism) as another religion.

Heh, just to help set the record straight, I think “religions” are distinguished by their systems of beliefs and practices, so yes, any system of beliefs and practices “distinct” from another system of beliefs and practices constitutes a “different” religion.

Or in other words, all of the “Assembly of God” churches, “Catholic” churches, “Methodist” churches, “Baptist” churches, “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint” churches, and all other “churches” are distinguished by their particular beliefs and practices. And while they do have some things in common, they are not truly “one” with other churches of other religions.

<!--QuoteBegin-prisonchaplain

@Dec 6 2005, 07:29 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray

You did hear me when I said that I was once a member of another Christian church, didn't you?

I believe you mentioned the Church of Christ. So, does the LDS Church enjoy your acappello singing?

The belief espoused by leaders of the “Church of Christ” who declare that it is “bad” to use musical instruments in worship services was among many of the beliefs I “grew out of” when I joined the Church, because with further light and knowledge and an increased capacity to understand God’s mind and will, I could see for myself that God does not consider it to be “bad” to use musical instruments in worship services.

Or in other words, the belief that it is “bad” to use musical instruments in worship services is not among the “good” beliefs I obtained in my experience as a member of the “Church of Christ”, because I no longer agree with those who believe that using musical instruments in worship services is “bad”, because I now know it can be “good”.

And btw, if you ever become a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you will also find yourself “growing out of” some beliefs that you now consider to be “bad”, or “good”, because you will then have a better understanding of God’s mind and will, in truth, regardless of what some other people will continue to tell you.

Or in other words, try to imagine that you were once in another religion, such as the Catholic church, until you later came to know what you know now, and then tell whether or not you would ever go “back” to having only those beliefs held by that other religion.

[Ray]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain+Dec 6 2005, 07:48 PM-->

Originally posted by Ray+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ray)

Or in other words, a degree or diploma only shows that a person has learned what the teachers at a college or university tried to teach them, which isn't necessarily the truth... and I'm not suggesting that those teachers are going out of their way to try to teach something they know for a fact is not true, either.

Ironically, what you say here is often quite accurate relative to Bible colleges. However, in graduate school seminaries it is less so. And I say this as one who did work at a denominational school! In undergraduate Bible study programs it is often the task of students to digest what the professor produces, do a bit of research, and to be able to restate the teacher's wisdom for exams. HOWEVER, at the graduate level, original research becomes much more important. Students must analyse for themselves. Exams are usually essay in nature, and occasionally, lengthy research papers serve in lieu of the exams.

Another interesting factor about seminary students--most of them are in the late twenties to mid-thirties. They are married, have children, and they work 25 hours per week. Most often, they are already clergypeople who have come to a place in their ministries where they want a fresh vision, fresh anointing...they want to study to show themselves approved, workmen that need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of God.

And yet, with all that “melding of the minds”, people in some “schools” continue to disagree with people in other “schools”, and even with some people in the same “school”, regardless of what everyone has to teach. Consider that for a moment, and then tell me if you believe all of those people who think they are teaching the truth are really teaching the truth.

<!--QuoteBegin-prisonchaplain

@Dec 6 2005, 07:48 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray

Or in other words, to know the truth we simply need to commune with God and receive His assurance of the truth, although some information in books can help us to have something to think about as we seek His assurance.

If you are speaking of simply knowing God or discerning his will, you might be correct generally. However, when it comes to discerning the Bible and to teaching God's people (whether as a lay-instructor, or as an overseer of a congregation), I would suggest heavy doses of anointed Scripture study.

So you simply believe people in other “religions” are not getting “heavy doses of anointed Scripture study” as much as people in your religion???

Heh, I can agree with that thought if I apply it to us, you know.

And considering the fact that we are now coming upon the 200th anniversary of Joseph Smith’s birthday, I’d really appreciate it if you would read something he said:

Some time in the second year after our removal to Manchester, there was in the place where we lived an unusual excitement on the subject of religion. It commenced with the Methodists, but soon became general among all the sects in that region of country. Indeed, the whole district of country seemed affected by it, and great multitudes united themselves to the different religious parties, which created no small stir and division amongst the people, some crying, Lo, here!” and others, “Lo, there!” Some were contending for the Methodist faith, some for the Presbyterian, and some for the Baptist. 

For, notwithstanding the great love which the converts to these different faiths expressed at the time of their conversion, and the great zeal manifested by the respective clergy, who were active in getting up and promoting this extraordinary scene of religious feeling, in order to have everybody converted, as they were pleased to call it, let them join what sect they pleased; yet when the converts began to file off, some to one party and some to another, it was seen that the seemingly good feelings of both the priests and the converts were more pretended than real; for a scene of great confusion and bad feeling ensued—priest contending against priest, and convert against convert; so that all their good feelings one for another, if they ever had any, were entirely lost in a strife of words and a contest about opinions.

I was at this time in my fifteenth year. My father’s family was proselyted to the Presbyterian faith, and four of them joined that church, namely, my mother, Lucy; my brothers Hyrum and Samuel Harrison; and my sister Sophronia.

During this time of great excitement my mind was called up to serious reflection and great uneasiness; but though my feelings were deep and often poignant, still I kept myself aloof from all these parties, though I attended their several meetings as often as occasion would permit. In process of time my mind became somewhat partial to the Methodist sect, and I felt some desire to be united with them; but so great were the confusion and strife among the different denominations, that it was impossible for a person young as I was, and so unacquainted with men and things, to come to any certain conclusion who was right and who was wrong.

My mind at times was greatly excited, the cry and tumult were so great and incessant. The Presbyterians were most decided against the Baptists and Methodists, and used all the powers of both reason and sophistry to prove their errors, or, at least, to make the people think they were in error. On the other hand, the Baptists and Methodists in their turn were equally zealous in endeavoring to establish their own tenets and disprove all others.

In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right which is it, and how shall I know it?

While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible….

… and it was at that point that he Asked the Lord for wisdom and faith to know the truth, after which he then received what we now refer to as the “First Vision”.

If you have time, I recommend reading the complete excerpt as given in. Joseph Smith’s ‘History of the Church’ in the Pearl of Great Price, and then perhaps the complete work known as the “History of the Church” written by Joseph Smith, if you’d like even more information.

[prisonchaplain]

Rays says:  Heh, just to help set the record straight, I think “religions” are distinguished by their systems of beliefs and practices, so yes, any system of beliefs and practices “distinct” from another system of beliefs and practices constitutes a “different” religion.

Nearly every major religious systems has "schools of thought" within them. Islam has Sunni, Shia and Sufis. Buddhism has Zen, Pure Land, etc. Christianity has Catholicism, Protestantism, Evangelicalism, Fundamentalism, Pentecostalism, etc. Within the major religions, these different theological streams may disagree over certain teachings or forms of worship. However, they generally consider each other part of the family.

Or in other words, all of the “Assembly of God” churches, “Catholic” churches, “Methodist” churches, “Baptist” churches, “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint” churches, and all other “churches” are distinguished by their particular beliefs and practices.  And while they do have some things in common, they are not truly “one” with other churches of other religions.

I beg to differ. I believe I'll spend eternity with many Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, etc. We are part of the one true universal church. We do worship Jesus in spirit and in truth.

We may have different denominations, but we are part of the same religion. So, perhaps this is a matter of degree. At some point a "denomination" becomes so different it really is a different religion all together. Ray, do you believe the LDS Church is so different from the Church of Christ (since you're familiar with this group) that is is truly a different religion (for example, to the extent that Islam and Christianity are different religions)?

[prisonchaplain]

Rays says:  And yet, with all that “melding of the minds”, people in some “schools” continue to disagree with people in other “schools”, and even with some people in the same “school”, regardless of what everyone has to teach.  Consider that for a moment, and then tell me if you believe all of those people who think they are teaching the truth are really teaching the truth.

I've quoted this before, but it fits your inquiry: In essentials, unity. In nonessentials, liberty. In all things, charity. So, yes. Christians can disagree with each other about many matters without being disagreeable. And yet, if you ask me, do I think all my seminary buddies are teaching the truth, I would say yes. Do I think by brothers over at the Baptist seminary are teaching their people the truth, I'd say yes. Methodist? Yes. Lutheran? Yes. Do we disagree on some matters? Sure. 1 Corinthians 13 tells us that we see through a glass that is cloudy. When we see Jesus, then we will see clearly.

So you simply believe people in other “religions” are not getting “heavy doses of anointed Scripture study” as much as people in your religion???

Ray? Hello? Are you there? I figured you must have been talking to someone else, and then read part of my response. How about if we get ? I responded to your suggestion that all we had to do to discern truth was listen to the Holy Ghost by suggesting that Scripture Study is necessary too. That's all I said. I did not relate my comment to Mormonism or Church of Christ-ism, or any other ism.

Frankly, you often read anti-LDS thoughts into my comments...thoughts that are never stated, implied, or even hinted at. I'm thinking your past struggles sometimes color these post-conversations incredibly. The Prince of Peace, and the Comforter can set you free such bondage.

[Ray]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Dec 7 2005, 12:04 PM

Ray, do you believe the LDS Church is so different from the Church of Christ (since you're familiar with this group) that it is truly a different religion (for example, to the extent that Islam and Christianity are different religions)?

No, not to the same extent, because the system of beliefs and practices held by the “Church of Christ” is similar to the system of beliefs and practices held by the “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”, but as I was trying to say before, I believe the differences in our "systems of beliefs and practices” constitute a difference in “religion”.

And btw, since the idea will probably come up, I do not believe the “Church of Christ” and the “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” worship a different “God”, or a different “Jesus”. I believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints simply knows more about the God and Jesus we all worship.

And btw, I also believe Islam has some beliefs and practices which are similar to ours too, so we are also "one" in those beliefs and practices we have in common.

[Ray]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain+Dec 7 2005, 12:23 PM-->

I've quoted this before, but it fits your inquiry: In essentials, unity. In nonessentials, liberty. In all things, charity. So, yes. Christians can disagree with each other about many matters without being disagreeable. And yet, if you ask me, do I think all my seminary buddies are teaching the truth, I would say yes. Do I think by brothers over at the Baptist seminary are teaching their people the truth, I'd say yes. Methodist? Yes. Lutheran? Yes. Do we disagree on some matters? Sure. 1 Corinthians 13 tells us that we see through a glass that is cloudy. When we see Jesus, then we will see clearly.

I don't know about you, but I essentially want to know the truth, and while I agree that some other people in some other walks of life are teaching the truth on some issues, I know that some of those people are teaching some things which essentially conflict with all truth, which is never in conflict with itself.

For instance, the Book of Mormon is only what it truly is, and if it truly is what it claims to be within its own pages, then only those who know the truth regarding the Book of Mormon truly know the truth concerning that issue, no matter how many other people try to teach otherwise.

Originally posted by prisonchaplain@Dec 7 2005, 12:23 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray

So you simply believe people in other “religions” are not getting “heavy doses of anointed Scripture study” as much as people in your religion???

Ray? Hello? Are you there? I figured you must have been talking to someone else, and then read part of my response. How about if we get ? I responded to your suggestion that all we had to do to discern truth was listen to the Holy Ghost by suggesting that Scripture Study is necessary too. That's all I said. I did not relate my comment to Mormonism or Church of Christ-ism, or any other ism.

Frankly, you often read anti-LDS thoughts into my comments...thoughts that are never stated, implied, or even hinted at. I'm thinking your past struggles sometimes color these post-conversations incredibly. The Prince of Peace, and the Comforter can set you free such bondage.

←

prisonchaplain,

I asked you a question because I was trying to understand what you had said, and instead of answering my question, which would have probably helped to bridge the gap in our lack of understanding, it is you who changed the subject by suggesting that what I asked, and what I said, had nothing to do with the conversation we were having.

And now, going back to topic:

You seemed to be suggesting that not only do we need to listen to the Holy Ghost to understand the truth, (as I had said) but we also need “heavy doses of anointed Scripture study” to understand the truth, to which I responded by asking if you think only the people in your religion are those who have enough “anointed Scripture study” to understand the truth.

You do realize that your religion teaches some things that other religions do not teach, don’t you?

(btw, for an understanding of what I mean by "religion", see and try to understand what I posted above, asking questions if necessary to understand my perception)

So what in your mind keeps some people from knowing the truth about those things which some other people know about?

And btw, the next time I say something that does not seem to relate to the conversation we are having, according to your perception, please simply ask me how I think what I said relates to our conversation instead of trying to portray me as the only one among us who is making false assumptions.

p.s. Diversion is one of Satan's greatest weapons, so please be on guard.

[prisonchaplain]

For instance, the Book of Mormon is only what it truly is, and if it truly is what it claims to be within its own pages, then only those who know the truth regarding the Book of Mormon truly know the truth concerning that issue, no matter how many other people try to teach otherwise.

Let me see if I understand what Ray is getting at. The COJCLDS is the only organization that teaches that the Standard Works are holy scripture, and that JS is a latter day prophet, and that it is the restored Christian church in these last days. Ergo, it contains the most truth, and any truth-seeker will discover this and join it, if s/he has an open heart. Is that your bottom-line?

I want to see how far you'll go with this. The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society says that it is "the faithful and wise servant," and is more or less the only source of godly truth in these last days. It cautiously suggests that there is no salvation, at least in this dispensation, outside their movement, because there is no other faithful and wise servant.

So, Ray...to cut through all the banter about different denomination teaching differently on various subjects, you are not really saying that my church might have the best teaching on the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the Baptists are clearest on Water Baptism, and the LDS Church has garnered the best understanding of Joseph Smith's ministry and teachings? That's not your bottom-line, is it? Rather, are you not suggesting that the COJCLDS is basically the only reliable source of godly truths today?

So you simply believe people in other “religions” are not getting “heavy doses of anointed Scripture study” as much as people in your religion??? ...

prisonchaplain, I asked you a question because I was trying to understand what you had said

Ray, you don't see the accusatory tone of your query? I've left it up for others to see, because it's pretty straightforward to me. I never said anything about other religions, yet YOU TELL ME THAT I BELIEVE OTHER RELIGIONS ARE NOT GETTING HEAVY DOSES OF ANOINTED SCRIPTURE STUDY AS MY RELIGION IS. I never said anything like that. You put words in my mouth that make me look judgmental, and, quite frankly, to those here not familiar with my other posts, like an anti-Mormon.

... and instead of answering my question, which would have probably helped to bridge the gap in our lack of understanding, it is you who changed the subject by suggesting that what I asked, and what I said, had nothing to do with the conversation we were having.

I believed it was time to deal with this gnawing problem. You did not ask me a question, you made an accusation.

You seemed to be suggesting that not only do we need to listen to the Holy Ghost to understand the truth, (as I had said) but we also need “heavy doses of anointed Scripture study” to understand the truth, to which I responded by asking if you think only the people in your religion are those who have enough “anointed Scripture study” to understand the truth.

Okay...thank you for revising your accusation, so it at least has the semblance of a question. No, I do not believe that.

You do realize that your religion teaches some things that other religions do not teach, don’t you?

Yes.

So what in your mind keeps some people from knowing the truth about those things which some other people know about?

Why don't all Muslims become Christians. Why don't all Christians become Pentecostals? Why don't all non-LDS Christians believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet? God knows. Even the Apostle Paul had numerous enemies.

When it comes down to it, I do not see in Scripture that a single religious organizational authority was ever a necessity. I know that most LDS interpret the calls to unity this way. Snow and I have had many exchanges on this issue. I see unity in groups like Promise Keepers, Billy Graham's cross-denominational crusades, etc. He does not. You probably do not. My sense is that it may be a greater miracle that the many Christian denominations cooperate as well as we do, versus us succeeding in creating an artificial organizational unity, while remaining internally divided.

And btw, the next time I say something that does not seem to relate to the conversation we are having, according to your perception, please simply ask me how I think what I said relates to our conversation instead of trying to portray me as the only one among us who is making false assumptions.

Ray, I do not want to get into a contest with you over who's the most thin-skinned, or who's making the most assumptions. I perceive myself to be patient, and pretty good at understanding where others are coming from. However, I've too often seen you put words in my mouth, or attempt to portray me as hostile or judgmental. I've tried to gently prod you away from such generalizations, but they keep cropping back up. Other people are reading these posts, and I know some people skim topics. They will see you accusing me of thinking I'm a clergyperson so I know more than you, that my denomination studies and no one else does, etc. etc. They will not likely look back and see that I said no such things. So, I'm asking you to be fair, and not require me to simply ask questions when I see such things, to find out what you were thinking about.

p.s.  Diversion is one of Satan's greatest weapons, so please be on guard.

Okay, here I'll ask the question. What are you getting at?

[Ray]

prisonchaplain: Let me see if I understand what Ray is getting at. The COJCLDS is the only organization that teaches that the Standard Works are holy scripture, and that JS is a latter day prophet, and that it is the restored Christian church in these last days. Ergo, it contains the most truth, and any truth-seeker will discover this and join it, if s/he has an open heart. Is that your bottom-line?

No, that isn’t what I was saying, although I do believe there is some truth in what you are saying.

What I was saying can be summed up in what I said about how the only way to know the truth is by receiving a personal witness from the Holy Ghost, to which you responded by saying that “heavy doses of anointed Scripture study” are also important. To which I responded by saying something else, which I will now rephrase:

I still affirm that the only way to know the truth is by receiving a personal witness from the Holy Ghost. Or in other words, if we want to know the truth of things, I say we should strive to receive a personal witness from the Holy Ghost.

You then went on to say that we also need to have “heavy doses of anointed Scripture study”, and although I suppose I could have then responded by simply saying that “anointed Scripture study” would necessarily involve receiving a personal witness of the Holy Ghost, I instead asked you a question to try to get you to tell me how you and I, personally, could have a different understanding regarding things of God when you and I both seem to believe we need to have the Holy Ghost involved in teaching us the truth.

And incidentally, my belief that we need to receive a personal witness from the Holy Ghost also means that I believe that it is only by receiving a personal witness from the Holy Ghost that we can know whether or not certain words from someone constitute scripture, and also whether or not our understanding of those words is the understanding the writer of those words had in mind. Or in other words, I believe we need a personal witness from the Holy Ghost to know not only that the Bible is the word of God, but also to know that what we [LDS] regard as the other “standard” works are the word of God.

prisonchaplain: I want to see how far you'll go with this. The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society says that it is "the faithful and wise servant," and is more or less the only source of godly truth in these last days. It cautiously suggests that there is no salvation, at least in this dispensation, outside their movement, because there is no other faithful and wise servant.

What you say the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society says is different from what I say the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is saying.

For instance, I say that while other churches have some of the truth, the true church of Christ has more of the truth that is available to us from Christ, because the true church of Christ has prophets of God who are inspired by Christ through the gift of the Holy Ghost. And as far as I know, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society doesn’t claim to have any prophets of God on the Earth today, and neither do you.

Also, I say that to be “saved” we simply need:

Faith in Jesus Christ, Repentance from our sins (the ones we personally know about through Faith in Jesus Christ), Baptism, (in obedience to our Lord’s commandments, which we can also know by Faith in Jesus Christ), and the gift of the Holy Ghost (which will help us to know of all other things we must know and do to be saved, through Faith in Jesus Christ).

And as far as I know, both you and that Watchtower Bible and Tract Society seem to be giving a different message regarding that issue too, possibly because you do not have that particular type or amount of Faith in Jesus Christ.

prisonchaplain: So, Ray...to cut through all the banter about different denomination teaching differently on various subjects, you are not really saying that my church might have the best teaching on the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the Baptists are clearest on Water Baptism, and the LDS Church has garnered the best understanding of Joseph Smith's ministry and teachings? That's not your bottom-line, is it? Rather, are you not suggesting that the COJCLDS is basically the only reliable source of godly truths today?

Not quite. I am suggesting that Christ and the Holy Ghost are the only reliable sources of godly truths today, although I also believe there is only one organization on this Earth today with more truth concerning God than any other organization.

For instance, if our Lord instantly gave me all knowledge of all truth available on the Earth today, and then told me to go from one religious organization to another to find out which organization has more truth than any other, I believe I would find more truth in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints than any other organization on the Earth today.

And btw, while our Lord hasn’t given me a knowledge of all truth as of yet, He has given me enough knowledge through the gift of the Holy Ghost to know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does have more truth than any other organization on Earth.

Ray: So you simply believe people in other “religions” are not getting “heavy doses of anointed Scripture study” as much as people in your religion???

prisonchaplain: Ray, you don't see the accusatory tone of your query? I've left it up for others to see, because it's pretty straightforward to me. I never said anything about other religions, yet YOU TELL ME THAT I BELIEVE OTHER RELIGIONS ARE NOT GETTING HEAVY DOSES OF ANOINTED SCRIPTURE STUDY AS MY RELIGION IS. I never said anything like that. You put words in my mouth that make me look judgmental, and, quite frankly, to those here not familiar with my other posts, like an anti-Mormon.

prisonchaplain,

I didn't “tell” you, I “asked” you if you believed other religions are not getting heavy doses of anointed scripture study as much as your religion, as evidenced by the question mark at the end of my sentence.

And btw, as you can see, I have no problem telling you and other people that I believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints receives more “anointed scripture study” than any other organization, as well as more “scripture” than anyone else on Earth, both personally and collectively.

Ray: ... and instead of answering my question, which would have probably helped to bridge the gap in our lack of understanding, it is you who changed the subject by suggesting that what I asked, and what I said, had nothing to do with the conversation we were having.

prisonchaplain: I believed it was time to deal with this gnawing problem. You did not ask me a question, you made an accusation.

Heh, how can you not see that it is a question when there is obviously a question mark at the end of that sentence? Just answer the question and be done with it.

Ray: You seemed to be suggesting that not only do we need to listen to the Holy Ghost to understand the truth, (as I had said) but we also need “heavy doses of anointed Scripture study” to understand the truth, to which I responded by asking if you think only the people in your religion are those who have enough “anointed Scripture study” to understand the truth.

prisonchaplain: Okay...thank you for revising your accusation, so it at least has the semblance of a question. No, I do not believe that.

Heh, please stop reading something into my comments which is not there, because I was “accusing” you of no such thing.

And btw, if you don’t believe your religious organization has more “anointed scripture study” than any other organization on Earth, then why are you espousing that particular religion?

Ray: You do realize that your religion teaches some things that other religions do not teach, don’t you?

prisonchaplain: Yes.

Okay, so far so good, as far as being able to understand my logic and answer my question.

Ray: So what in your mind keeps some people from knowing the truth about those things which some other people know about?

prisonchaplain: Why don't all Muslims become Christians. Why don't all Christians become Pentecostals? Why don't all non-LDS Christians believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet? God knows. Even the Apostle Paul had numerous enemies.

Do you have an answer to my question or not?

I think the answer is simple. Some people have misperceptions and misunderstandings concerning what the truth really is because they do not receive a personal witness from the Holy Ghost to help them know the truth, because if they did, they would know the truth, with God as their witness.

And btw, all religious organizations cannot possibly be true, and even all “Christian” organizations cannot possibly be true, considering the fact that some organizations are teaching some things which directly conflict with some teachings of other organizations.

Or in other words, logic alone should tell us that one particular organization has more truth than any other.

prisonchaplain: When it comes down to it, I do not see in Scripture that a single religious organizational authority was ever a necessity. I know that most LDS interpret the calls to unity this way. Snow and I have had many exchanges on this issue. I see unity in groups like Promise Keepers, Billy Graham's cross-denominational crusades, etc. He does not. You probably do not. My sense is that it may be a greater miracle that the many Christian denominations cooperate as well as we do, versus us succeeding in creating an artificial organizational unity, while remaining internally divided.

Then I believe you do not see the fact that our Lord chose certain people to be his apostles, giving Peter the keys of the kingdom, as the formation of our Lord’s “single religious organizational authority” on Earth at that time, serving as an example of how our Lord’s organization should function "till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" - Ephesians 4:13

And btw, I still continue to believe that the only way you will see the truth is by receiving a personal witness from the Holy Ghost.

Ray: And btw, the next time I say something that does not seem to relate to the conversation we are having, according to your perception, please simply ask me how I think what I said relates to our conversation instead of trying to portray me as the only one among us who is making false assumptions.

prisonchaplain: Ray, I do not want to get into a contest with you over who's the most thin-skinned, or who's making the most assumptions. I perceive myself to be patient, and pretty good at understanding where others are coming from. However, I've too often seen you put words in my mouth, or attempt to portray me as hostile or judgmental. I've tried to gently prod you away from such generalizations, but they keep cropping back up. Other people are reading these posts, and I know some people skim topics. They will see you accusing me of thinking I'm a clergyperson so I know more than you, that my denomination studies and no one else does, etc. etc. They will not likely look back and see that I said no such things. So, I'm asking you to be fair, and not require me to simply ask questions when I see such things, to find out what you were thinking about.

What course of action would you consider to be “fair” when I am not sure of what you are saying? I have simply been asking questions to determine whether or not I have correctly understood you, giving you what I thought you are saying so that you could respond to those thoughts and possibly correct my understanding if in error. I have not intentionally been trying to portray you as hostile or judgmental, and I am sorry if you feel that way.

Ray: p.s. Diversion is one of Satan's greatest weapons, so please be on guard.

prisonchaplain: Okay, here I'll ask the question. What are you getting at?

Okay, here’s a play by play, as I saw and continue to see things.

Earlier in this thread, I was trying to share with you my thoughts about how we can only know the truth by receiving a personal witness from the Holy Ghost. I gave you some of my thoughts, some thoughts from Hugh Nibley, and some thoughts from Joseph Smith to try to illustrate my point, during which time I was hoping and praying that the Holy Ghost would give us both His personal assurance of the truth. But also during this time, Satan has been at work against us, trying to keep you from understanding me, and me from understanding you, so that we can both arrive at a mutual understanding of the truth together.

For instance, it is “he” who gave you the thought that I was trying to “portray you as being hostile and judgmental (against us), when I was trying to portray no such thing.

And instead of going deeper into conversation about what I have been trying to talk about with you, I have felt the need to patch things up, as you have felt the need to defend yourself against some ideas which neither one of us appears to have wanted to share with each other.

Or in other words, I was simply trying to share the fact that we are being “diverted” from the main focus of our conversation into something that I’m pretty sure neither one of us really wants to talk about, namely, harsh feelings against each other.

And just so you know, I have never had harsh feelings against you, and I have never become angry when I have spoken to you. I have simply been trying to share my understanding with you while trying to let you know when I either agree or do not agree with what you have been saying.

And btw, if I have actually succeeded in patching things up between us, then I would prefer that you simply respond to the thoughts I have already shared with you concerning the main topic of our conversation, without ever mentioning the idea that you once thought I had harsh feelings against you.

[prisonchaplain]

Rays says: I still affirm that the only way to know the truth is by receiving a personal witness from the Holy Ghost. Or in other words, if we want to know the truth of things, I say we should strive to receive a personal witness from the Holy Ghost. ... And incidentally, my belief that we need to receive a personal witness from the Holy Ghost also means that I believe that it is only by receiving a personal witness from the Holy Ghost that we can know whether or not certain words from someone constitute scripture, and also whether or not our understanding of those words is the understanding the writer of those words had in mind. Or in other words, I believe we need a personal witness from the Holy Ghost to know not only that the Bible is the word of God, but also to know that what we [LDS] regard as the other “standard” works are the word of God.

This is not so different from saying, "We believe the Bible is inspired by God, so whenever you read it you should pray, so the Holy spirit will guide your understanding." Pentecostals would add the Holy Spirit will often highlight a certain verse or passage to our hearts as a specific word from God for us personally. So, I have no argument with seeking a spiritual sense of assurance about religious teachings.

What you say the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society says is different from what I say the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is saying. For instance, I say that while other churches have some of the truth, the true church of Christ has more of the truth that is available to us from Christ, because the true church of Christ has prophets of God who are inspired by Christ through the gift of the Holy Ghost. And as far as I know, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society doesn’t claim to have any prophets of God on the Earth today, and neither do you.

Your answer is well balanced. The Watchtower organization has issued some seeming prophetic statements, but does not claim to be a prophet. Likewise, Pentecostal and charismatic churches believe the gift of prophecy is active today, but we do not have the office of prophet (except for a few independent charismatic churches--google Paul Cain or the Kansas City prophets, if you want to research it a bit).

Also, I say that to be “saved” we simply need: Faith in Jesus Christ, Repentance from our sins (the ones we personally know about through Faith in Jesus Christ), Baptism, (in obedience to our Lord’s commandments, which we can also know by Faith in Jesus Christ), and the gift of the Holy Ghost (which will help us to know of all other things we must know and do to be saved, through Faith in Jesus Christ).

When you speak of salvation here, are you speaking of exaltation? If so, I'm curious. There seems to be some difference of opinion here, as to whether allegiance to the LDS Church is a prerequisite (at least in this era). What's your take on this?

And as far as I know, both you and that Watchtower Bible and Tract Society seem to be giving a different message regarding that issue too, possibly because you do not have that particular type of Faith in Jesus Christ.

I believe the Watchtower says that allegiance to them is a modern-day requirement of salvation, though they are very cautious in how this message comes across.

The main difference between your list and what I teach is that I offer a believer's baptism, and do not see the sacrament as a prerequisite of salvation. Ironically, the Church of Christ (which is generally evangelical, or even fundamental) does adhere to what we call a sacramental view of baptism (belief that salvation comes from the act itself). Additionally, Pentecostals agree that Christians immediately begin walking with the presence of the Holy Spirit upon faith and repentence. However, we believe that the gift of the Holy Spirit comes with the baptism in the Holy Spirit, which we argue is a second work of grace--one that comes subsequent to salvation.

Not quite. I am suggesting that Christ and the Holy Ghost are the only reliable sources of godly truths today, although I also believe there is only one organization on this Earth today with more truth concerning God than any other organization. For instance, if our Lord instantly gave me all knowledge of all truth available in the Earth today, and then told me to go from one religious organization to another to find out which organization has more truth than any other, I believe I would find more truth in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints than any other religious organization on Earth.

Ray, I acknowledge and respect this testimony. I have the same witness about my own movement. Any serious believer should worship in the community of faith s/he believes most closely and deeply reflects the heart of God.

prisonchaplain, I did not “tell” you, I “asked” you if you believed other religions are not getting heavy doses of anointed scripture study as much as your religion, as evidenced by the question mark at the end of my sentence. ... Heh, how can you not see that it is a question when there is obviously a question mark at the end of that sentence? Just answer the question and be done with it.

Ray, I reread the whole post, and confess I overreacted a bit. In my defense though, you had not one question mark, but three (???). I perceived it as an accusation, and still believe somebody reading the post, without knowing either of us, would think the same thing. However, you are telling me you meant it as a question, and I apologize for my sharp response. By the way, I think I answered the question in a subsequent post. Yes, I believe the Assemblies of God comes closest to reflecting God's heart, but no I don't think we are the only ones who study, nor do I believe we have a monopoly on spirituality.

Do you have an answer to my question or not?

Here's my answer: For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 1 Corinthians 13:12 (LDS KJV) I do not espouse sinless perfection as a possible spiritual state, this side of Glory. Nor do I believe anyone will have a complete understanding of God's heart and mind, prior to the second advent of Jesus. If such things were possible, God never would have had to command us to love each other and be united.

I think the answer is simple. Some people have misperceptions and misunderstandings concerning what the truth really is because they do not receive a personal witness from the Holy Ghost to help them know the truth, because if they did, they would know the truth, with God as their witness.

Let me strain at a gnat to make a point. I've seen strings posted here about whether or not certain soft drinks are permissible, according to the WoW. Another string dealt with the advisability of Christians listening to certain types of music that include overt satanic trappings (whether they be serious or marketing gimics). So, even in the LDS Church, there are differences of opinion on matters we all would likely agree are "nonessentials." However, if I take your injunction to rely on the personal witness from the Holy Ghost, then one might conclude that all true believers would reach the same conclusions.

And btw, all religious organizations cannot possibly be true, and even all “Christian” organizations cannot possibly be true, considering the fact that some organizations are teaching some things which directly conflict with some teachings of other organizations.

To repeat my quote from another post: in essentials, unity. I would suggest that those issues that are truly essential are few indeed.

Or in other words, logic alone should tell us that one particular organization has more truth than any other.

I generally agree. For example, I believe the Assemblies of God has discerned correctly how God intended the baptism in the Holy Ghost with the initial, physical evidence of speaking in tongues, to operate in his church. We're right, and the Bible Baptists (who think tongues is probably of the Devil) are wrong. My organization is more right than they are on this matter. However, I look forward to sharing eternal fellowship with my Bible Baptist bretheren, on that great and glorious day.

Then I believe you do not see the fact that our Lord chose certain people to be his apostles, giving Peter the keys of the kingdom, as the formation of our Lord’s “single religious organizational authority” on Earth at that time, serving as an example of how our Lord’s organization should function forever.

No, I don't. That is a teaching the Church of LDS shares with the Roman Catholic Church. I believe in the "priesthood of all believers." I believe that God has called all Christians to fulfill the Great Commission (Matthew 28:19-20). Yes, some are given special callings (teacher, pastor, missionary, etc.). However, while human organizations (church governmental structures) can be used of God to screen those who claim giftings, no single organization has been ordained by God to have monopoly power in this area, IMHO.

What course of action would you consider to be “fair” when I am not sure of what you are saying? I have simply been asking questions to determine whether or not I have correctly understood you, giving you what I thought you are saying so that you could respond to those thoughts and possibly correct my understanding if in error. I have not intentionally been trying to portray you as hostile or judgmental, and I am sorry if you feel that way.

I accept this, and apologize again, for overreacting. I read into your question an accusation, based on the "tone" I perceived. Again, though, your inquiry, followed by 3 question marks (???) would probably be seen by most readers are being a little more charged than a simple question.

And btw, if I have actually succeeded in patching things up between us, then I would prefer that you simply respond to the thoughts I have already shared with you concerning the main topic of our conversation, without ever mentioning the idea that you once thought I had harsh feelings against you.

I made the critical mistake of responding to HOW I perceived you were responding, rather than WHAT you were saying/asking. I'll obey my own suggestion to get

[Ray]

prisonchaplain: "We believe the Bible is inspired by God, so whenever you read it you should pray, so the Holy spirit will guide your understanding."

I can agree with that, except that I would shift the focus and say that we should first seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit to correctly understand the Bible and how it should be interpreted. Or in other words, instead of simply accepting the Bible as our guide for understanding God, simply because we think we should believe the Bible, I believe we should first seek the Holy Ghost as our guide so that we can know not only the truth in the Bible, but in every other book on Earth.

Or in other words, people who were inspired by Christ through the power of the Holy Ghost are the type of people wrote the scriptures in the Bible, and just as they wrote those scriptures, people who are now inspired by Christ through the power of the Holy Ghost can write more scripture now.

Ray …to be “saved” we simply need: Faith in Jesus Christ, Repentance from our sins (the ones we personally know about through Faith in Jesus Christ), Baptism, (in obedience to our Lord’s commandments, which we can also know by Faith in Jesus Christ), and the gift of the Holy Ghost (which will help us to know of all other things we must know and do to be saved, through Faith in Jesus Christ).

prisonchaplain: When you speak of salvation here, are you speaking of exaltation? If so, I'm curious. There seems to be some difference of opinion here, as to whether allegiance to the LDS Church is a prerequisite (at least in this era). What's your take on this?

I believe exaltation is the ultimate form or highest degree of salvation, and I also believe it is possible to be partially saved to a certain degree.

And I also believe that the only thing required for salvation is the thing that has always been required for salvation, for any and all people. Or in other words, we need to totaly accept the true gospel of Jesus Christ, in any and every detail.

prisonchaplain: I believe the Watchtower says that allegiance to them is a modern-day requirement of salvation, though they are very cautious in how this message comes across.

Let me put it this way. If God had something He wanted to teach us regarding our salvation, and He chose one particular person to act as His messenger to the rest of us, do you think you would be saved if you totally rejected that messenger?

What if that messenger was Christ? What if Christ chose another messenger, and gave that person authority to act in His name?

I believe God will give everybody the opportunity to hear what God has to tell us regarding what it takes to be “saved”, either during mortal life or sometime later before the resurrection, but I do not believe we will be saved if we totally reject a message from God.

prisonchaplain: The main difference between your list and what I teach is that I offer a believer's baptism, and do not see the sacrament as a prerequisite of salvation. Ironically, the Church of Christ (which is generally evangelical, or even fundamental) does adhere to what we call a sacramental view of baptism (belief that salvation comes from the act itself). Additionally, Pentecostals agree that Christians immediately begin walking with the presence of the Holy Spirit upon faith and repentance. However, we believe that the gift of the Holy Spirit comes with the baptism in the Holy Spirit, which we argue is a second work of grace--one that comes subsequent to salvation.

…Any serious believer should worship in the community of faith s/he believes most closely and deeply reflects the heart of God.

People believe and have believed all kinds of things, but we must accept the truth to be saved.

prisonchaplain: To repeat my quote from another post: in essentials, unity.. I would suggest that those issues that are truly essential are few indeed.

If I understand you correctly, I agree. And essentially I want to accept everything I need to accept to be saved.

prisonchaplain: …I look forward to sharing eternal fellowship with my Bible Baptist brethren, on that great and glorious day.

If things turn out as I expect, I believe we'll continue to share “fellowship” with each other exactly as we are doing right now, with some of us teaching some others of us what we need to accept to be saved.

prisonchaplain: I believe in the "priesthood of all believers." I believe that God has called all Christians to fulfill the Great Commission (Matthew 28:19-20). Yes, some are given special callings (teacher, pastor, missionary, etc.). However, while human organizations (church governmental structures) can be used of God to screen those who claim giftings, no single organization has been ordained by God to have monopoly power in this area, IMHO.

I believe that what I know helps me to know better than to believe what you are saying, IMHO.

And btw, I don’t believe there is anything more I can say to help teach you right now, but please don’t take that as an insult. Perhaps we will talk more later.