What If...

[Jason]

Originally posted by paul6150@Dec 6 2005, 07:12 PM

We must first start by ask a much broader question first. How do we know that anything is true? How do we test any claims of truth? The answer to these two questions is: we test to see what is truth through observation, experimentation, examination, eyewitnesses and scientific evidence. For example, one must test historical claims measured by the common standards of historical research. Any claims, for truth, generally, will be verified by some other documentation or scientific evidence. These claims of truth must also be tested for rationality. Is it logically consistent and coherent? The Bible has, through thousands of years, been claimed as a standard of truth. One of the most astonishing things, of course, is that the Bible has literally thousands of testable historical prophecies, cases in which events were clearly foretold, and both the foretelling and the fulfillment is a matter of historical record.

Yeah...um..ever heard of historical revisionism? You know, that's like if I wrote a book today claiming that I predicted Bill Clinton would become president, and then claimed I prophesied it in 1980. That's what the Bible is, Paul, and many Bible scholars admit as much today. Either that, or the prophecies were written in such a vague and obscure manner that they could be applied to any given period of time.

The bible is hokey.

[huma17]

What if the sun really didn't shine?

What if the sky wasn't blue?

What if we really didn't need air to survive?

What if 2+2 didn't equal 4?

What if an alien being ran your brain?

What if the earth's core was made of cheese?

And what if you really tried to post real questions?

[jiggypoo]

Originally posted by paul6150+Dec 6 2005, 07:12 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Jason@Dec 5 2005, 05:30 PM

Can Mormon Doctrine withstand the same scrutiny that the Bible has withstood?

Yes, and Im not even Mormon.

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LET ME HELP THE “SON OF PAUL” IN THIS BATTLE ABOUT WHAT IF’S

These are some very good “what if questions” because all who are students of the truth must ask these types of questions everyday. We must base truth on sound evidence, solid teaching and tested documentation. We can’t test truth on: hearsay evidence without checking it out ourselves; personal feelings that are relied on can lead to accept an untruth based on how I felt at the moment; and so on.

We must first start by ask a much broader question first. How do we know that anything is true? How do we test any claims of truth? The answer to these two questions is: we test to see what is truth through observation, experimentation, examination, eyewitnesses and scientific evidence. For example, one must test historical claims measured by the common standards of historical research. Any claims, for truth, generally, will be verified by some other documentation or scientific evidence. These claims of truth must also be tested for rationality. Is it logically consistent and coherent? The Bible has, through thousands of years, been claimed as a standard of truth. One of the most astonishing things, of course, is that the Bible has literally thousands of testable historical prophecies, cases in which events were clearly foretold, and both the foretelling and the fulfillment is a matter of historical record.

We must also examine the Book of Mormon, by these same methods to see if it is a source of truth, as claimed by Smith and others. Conversely, if, like many other so called statements about the truth, of a particular belief system, it falls by the way side as false teaching and erroneous beliefs.

So let’s examine of the responses to the what if questions posed by SON OF PAUL

BEN RAINES SAID:

“I believe that God continues to communicate with his children whom he loves.” HEY, WE FOUND SOMETHING WE AGREE ON BUT THEN YOU NARROW DOWN YOUR STATEMENT TO ONLY “living prophets today”. I am assuming you are referring to the LDS seer, prophet, and revelator. I agree God hasn’t “closed the heavens” and speaks to every one of us today if we will listen!! But I think you are limiting your focus to only the “living prophets in the LDS church” which is where you are in error. Peter declared in Acts 2:17 that when the Holy Spirit falls on His people the “sons and daughters shall prophesy”. Acts 21:9 states Philip had 4 daughters that all prophesied. Paul states in Romans 12:4-6 that the believers shall prophesy according to the proportion of faith they have. Paul states in 1 Corinthians 14:1, 24, 39 that there would be many who prophesy as the Holy Spirit moves in them. Paul even goes so far as to say “covet to prophesy”. So my take on this is that God never intended prophecy to be only one individual as the LDS teach.

So SON OF PAUL is correct in asking the question “Does God speak to normal people like you and me” or does he only speak through only the (living) prophets? I believe that God speaks through many prophets today. However, in all cases, the prophecies must be compared to a standard of truth that will test to see if it is really God speaking as He spoke in the past. This is where it gets difficult for there are many false prophets out there. So since the Bible has been tested and verified as the Word of God then we should be checking any new prophecies against it to verify the veracity of the “so called prophecy”.

LINDY asked some more “what if” questions but I didn’t see anything there to further respond to except if she accepts the Lord Jesus as her personal Savior as I have posted elsewhere then we will meet in heaven.

JOSIE apparently got a little upset over the “what if questions”. SON OF PAUL was only asking the dramatic questions to make one think. Paul stated in 2 Corinthians 13:5 “Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith, test yourselves. Do you realize that Christ Jesus is in you – unless of course you fail the test.” So we are to ask the what if questions.

JOSIE goes on to talk about the LDS church has withstood “mobs, murder, threatenings, fire, and much, much more.” I don’t disagree with that but SON OF PAUL’S question was about the BOM. The JOSIE states the “Book of Mormon is being used to find ruins of cities in central and south America.” Please provide some proof from known and respected archeologists as to the veracity of this claim. And to base your truth on the statement that the “LDS Church is one of the fastest growing churches in the World” does not prove anything. Communism was at one time the fastest growing form of government but it was based on a lie. So for the most part it has fell by the wayside.

JIGGYPOO says he will have lived a good life based on what he perceived as truth. That doesn’t answer the question asked. If it is not true then why do you live by a lie why not search out the truth. If JS told some “tall tales” which he was known to do then those who follow him blindly also will have to account for their belief before God.

JIGGYPOO then makes a great statement in “I know my God and His great compassion and infinite goodness. I know my sins are remitted through His Son. I do not fear the judgment bar of God. I know in whom I have trusted.” I hope and pray you are basing this statement on the acceptance of Jesus as your personal Savior.

JIGGYPOO says the “Mormons believe the Bible to be divinely inspired but that portions have been removed or changed”. The BOM states that the Bible has the “fullness of the everlasting gospel”… and that the BOM “contains, as does the Bible, the fullness of the everlasting gospel”. After this one statement in the Introduction of the LDS version of the BOM there a systematic tearing down of the statement that the Bible “contains the fullness of the everlasting Gospel”. For example read the 6th paragraph of the same Introduction which quotes Joseph Smith as saying “…Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book on earth and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than any other book”. This statement leaves the impression that the BOM is superior to the Bible and should be trusted more. 2N 29:8, 10 also tear down the Bible by saying “plain and precious” things have been removed. If one studies out the dissemination process of the New Testament in the early church they would find it very hard to say there was a systematic removal of these things. JIGGYPOO you are basing your premise on what the BOM, JS and other Mormon teachers have told you to believe. Study out the NT dissemination process as I have said and verify it.

I will have to stop here because I have run out of time to respond at this time. I will work on the rest of the responses later.

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My response:

Question #1 was: "What if the Mormon doctrine was wrong?"

I replied to this in the personal sense. It is a sufficient answer to the question if taken in personal salvation context. IF the question's context is different, then that context needs to be better explained by the questionaire.

#2: About Jesus being my personal Savior: Of course He is! I don't get evangelicals nor Mormons debating over this. Ultimately the whole point (for me, atleast), is to learn, accept, and live by such a truth. Yes, I accept Jesus as my Savior. He is my Redeemer and He is my judge.

#3: About the Bible and the revisionist perspective: yea - it's the Mormon's perspective (though I doubt we're alone). I don't see it as unreasonable, either. I've not extensively researched it, as I haven't seen any need to. Maybe sometime in the future I will. For now, though, I'm comfortable with what I see as evidence that the Bible has been muddled (i.e. plain and precious truths being removed). One such evidence (for me) is the lack of clarify and agreement on the requisites of Salvation, and how one obtains such salvation. I figure this critical truth would be as clear as day (and it is when considering the BofM's definition and requirements).

This is how I see it. One day, if and when I feel the need to explore translation erros in the Bible, I'll check it out. Thanks for your concern anyhow.

[BenRaines]

What if there are errors or contradictions to the bible.

Check out this site. It is one of many.

http://biblical.justdrew.net

[Setheus]

What if the stars are made of salt.....God's salt! AND WHAT IF HE'S JUST WAITING TO EAT US!?!

[Justlooking]

These are very good questions to ask. The only way to find out what is what is to check the scriptures, do word studies, and see if they match.

[LionHeart]

This discussion has brought forth a very intersting question that I have been thinking about for a long time. First of all, the L.D.S. Church teaches that they are the only true Church on the Earth today; and there can and will only be one true Church on the Earth at a time. Now we had BenRaines (correct me if I'm wrong) of the L.D.S. faith state that the holy ghost manifested the truthfulness of his religion to him. On the other hand, we also had SonOfPaul say that the holy spirit also manifested to him the truthfulness if his religion. Now we could point fingers at each other and say "You just don't know what the holy ghost feels like." But in all reality, who is to say? Who is to say that both people did not recieve the same exact feeling toward their respective religion? However, the truth must be out there. We can say we feel the holy ghost all we want, but how can we truly know? Any thoughts?

[happyirish]

Son of Paul,

I'm new to this site and I was just reading over your post. I am a convert to the church, 10 years now. I wasn't considering it at all in my life before conversion. But, nothing has spoken to me quite like the Book of Mormon. I was humbled by it. I will never go back.

That is what I told the protestant church member outside of the Salt Lake Temple, who was protesting our religious beliefs...interesting way to attempt to covert people...by spreading contention and judging others in a critical, unforgiving manner...my, how Christlike.

I found the post a bit on the antagonistic side. However, as far as I can see, our Gods are the same, we just have more information about him, at our fingertips through the book of mormon. All biblical text has been translated. They certainly didn't speak modern english B.c and early A.D. So let me ask you, did you personally know the profits who translated the Old Testament and New Testament? ... Me either. It comes to this: it's a matter of faith. You may believe one way and I believe another. But, we are not separate so much. You and I are both children of God and will be judged accordingly, no matter what book we chose to follow. Our faith in God will determine our fate.

The whole knowledge of God has withstood every possible scrutinizing action.

So will all legitimate books that teach Heavenly Fathers Word.

SO here's a question for you:

What if God testifies to each of us whatever religion will help us stay closest to him?

Me-LDS, My family-Catholic, and you-your confirmed choice. All help us love him to the best of our ability and we all work hard at it, reading the best books and making choices based on the spirit we feel. I believe the BOM is true. The spirit confirms it's validity, to me.

If your intention was to really find out if it would stand up to an academic studying, here are a few books that might interest you. They are of the academic level you are referring to:

1. The Trial of the Stick of Joseph

2. Evidences of Christ in America.

3....for good measure...The Book of Mormon

All contain verifiable evidences.

Happy reading :)

[sonofpaul]

Originally posted by happyirish@Dec 9 2005, 02:32 AM

Son of Paul,

I'm new to this site and I was just reading over your post. I am a convert to the church, 10 years now. I wasn't considering it at all in my life before conversion. But, nothing has spoken to me quite like the Book of Mormon. I was humbled by it. I will never go back.

That is what I told the protestant church member outside of the Salt Lake Temple, who was protesting our religious beliefs...interesting way to attempt to covert people...by spreading contention and judging others in a critical, unforgiving manner...my, how Christlike.

I found the post a bit on the antagonistic side. However, as far as I can see, our Gods are the same, we just have more information about him, at our fingertips through the book of mormon. All biblical text has been translated. They certainly didn't speak modern english B.c and early A.D. So let me ask you, did you personally know the profits who translated the Old Testament and New Testament?  ...   Me either. It comes to this: it's a matter of faith. You may believe  one way and I believe another. But, we are not separate so much. You and I are both children of God and will be judged accordingly, no matter what book we chose to follow. Our faith in God will determine our fate.

The whole knowledge of God has withstood every possible scrutinizing action.

So will all legitimate books that teach Heavenly Fathers Word.

SO here's a question for you:

What if God testifies to each of us whatever religion will help us stay closest to him?

Me-LDS, My family-Catholic, and you-your confirmed choice. All help us love him to the best of our ability and we all work hard at it, reading the best books and making choices based on the spirit we feel. I believe the BOM is true. The spirit confirms it's validity, to me.

If your intention was to really find out if it would stand up to an academic studying, here are a few books that might interest you. They are of the academic level you are referring to:

1. The Trial of the Stick of Joseph

2. Evidences of Christ in America.

3....for good measure...The Book of Mormon

All contain verifiable evidences.

Happy reading  :)

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Hello All,

I am sorry that I have not kept up with all the questions. I am working on my Master's degree and responding to everyone is low on the list of things to do at the moment.

I do have one question for happyirish.

Are all the books that you listed above, are they written by people associated with the LDS church or doctrine?

If so, please provide some books written by people that are not linked to the LDS church.

I will give an example of why this is important:

I drive a GM car with 171,000 miles on it. In the past, my parents owned a GM car that had 376,000 miles on it and it still work in OK condition. As I am looking into getting a new in the future, I find FORD, Dodge, and GM all saying they are the number one car in America. How can all of them be number one? (There is some truth to their claims, but when you compare all the claims, stats and history of each company, a different picture arises.) I am bias toward GM based on my past experiences with their vehicles. Who is to say that FORD is better than Dodge? If I talk to someone from FORD, they will tell me that their cars are the best on the market. If I talk to someone from Dodge, they will tell me that their cars are the best. So, who is right?

Well, those people that have nothing to gain from supporting either group, but care about comparing the facts of one company to the facts of another.

Son of Paul

[prisonchaplain]

While we are what ifing - What if G-d really does love? What if Jesus was right about children and that we need to become like them? What if all the children in all the world are loved and cared for by G-d and that they are saved through Christ even though the children lever learned to utter the name of Christ let alone believe in him?

If there are a lot more people in Glory than we expect, I doubt that too many people will be disappointed. Regardless of how the Day of Judgment plays out, no one will be second-guessing God.

What if G-d so loved the world that no one was condemned because no one told them of Christ before they died? What if everyone that was loving and kind went to heaven even if they were Baptist, Mormon Catholic, Jewish, Moslem, Hindu or no religion at all?

Once again--no second-guessing God on Judgment Day. However, there is plenty of Scripture to suggest that we need to bring the Good News to the utter most parts of the world. The biblical sense of urgency seems "over the top" if everyone gets in, anyhow.

What if G-d really did judge all according to their works?

Since none are righteous, since in the prophet Isaiah fell on his face before God and declared his moral/spiritual filthiness, since all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God-------then this would be bad news indeed!

Can you just imagine all the religious fundamentalist making a fuss because they thought G-d only loved and saved them?

They'd get over it once they realized how far they were from the heart of God, and yet still welcomed into Glory.

What if there is no loving G-d and the evangelicals are right?

It wasn't the evangelicals that came up with Jesus' exclusionary statements: Whoever believes in him (Jesus) will not perish but haver everlasting life. I am the way, truth, and life, no man comes to the Father but through me.

What if most of the human family is damned because they lived in places and time when no one could teach them of Christ. What if people that are so compassionate and kind that they would give their lives for other are excluded from heaven because they messed up on doctrine?

Again, no one will question God's justice or mercy on Judgment Day. A hint at an answer, though, is in Romans 1. It suggests that there is a general revelation of God in nature, and that people who choose the way of sin are without excuse. It's easy to convince sinners that God is unfair, but nobody will be arguing with him on that great and glorious day.

Well then I will die thinking and believing in the kind and compassionate and glad to be rid of a G-d that ignores the Good Samaritans that happen to belong to the wrong religion. I would rather be with those that cared more about G-dly works than doctrine.

If God really exists, and he chooses to involve himself personally in his creation, then I would think it wise to both know what He wants me to know, and do what he wants me to do.

[happyirish]

Are all the books that you listed above, are they written by people associated with the LDS church or doctrine?</span></span>

If so, please provide some books written by people that are not linked to the LDS church.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span>

Son of Paul,

(Congrats on working toward your Masters Degree - an awsome accomplishment)</span></span>

You are correct in assuming the books I listed have LDS content. I had assumed from the questions you originally posted, that you were not interested in researching books without reference of the LDS faith. Because you were asking if the Book of Mormon could stand up to academic scrutiny, I had assumed you had researched all other possibilities, and came to the conclusion that it couldn't.

One couldn't legitimately decide if the Book of Mormon were true unless they had read it. Again, I assumed you had, but I put it in the list anyway.

The Trial of the Stick of Joseph is a book that has scientific and historical, factual, verifiable evidences in it. It is written in the spirit of proving the BOM false (it is in story form rather than research text). I included it because it gives both sides of the idea. The Evidences of Christ in Ancient America is a reseach book - no story form. It is a straight documentation of scientists who search for evidence proving or disproving the historical content of the BOM. There are pictures of the archeological digs, to boot. It has endorsements from LDS and non-LDS alike. The research has been documented by Harvard specialists and is wholly verifiable. I considered this a very good read for people who are not LDS because it focuses on the historical acuracy of the BOM. It makes it more of a historical documentation, rather than an attempt to convert people.

You asked if it could stand up to academic scrutiny, and in that book, it has. It's been researched, verified, and documented. Of course this does not address faith issues, just the historical events. Of course, if you are asking if the faith will stand academic scrutiny - I don't think any faith can. If someone doesn't want it, no amount of proof will make them. That's an opinion, of course.

Quote"Well, those people that have nothing to gain from supporting either group, but care about comparing the facts of one company to the facts of another."

I don't have anything to gain from pointing these books out to you. I don't get gold stars on my crown after death for assisting in a conversion. I was pointing them out to help you decide if the BOM would stand up to academic scrutiny - your academic scrutiny. I didn't think you were looking for someone else to scrutinize it, for it is you that had the interest in knowing in the first place.

Do you have something to gain from asking these questions, or have you already decided the answers? Most LDS people have already given the BOM serious consideration. Are these questions for our benefit, or yours? Or strictly for pondering? Maybe I wasn't reading you correctly...it has been known to happen.

Remember, I am a convert of 10 years. These are the two books that I found most helpful. If anything, they are at least interesting.

I'm not trying to be a smarty pants, or be argumentive. I'm just pointing out where to find physical evidence (if that's what you are after)

Again, good luck with your studies. If nobody sees a post from you, I'm sure they can safely assume you are just too darn busy - and with good reason.

happyirish (operative part is happy) for the record </span>

I've edited this 50 times, the size won't change correctly - my appologies.

[sgallan]

What if the evangelical’s God exists?

I'd prefer hell over this god.

What if you had to give an account before the evangelical’s God?

I'd see a demon.....

What if the Bible is the divinely inspired word of God?

Same as above.

What if God created the world as the book of Genesis states?

I'd consider this god a bit of a game playing trickster.

[huma17]

Hey, Happyirish, your last post hurt my eyes.

[happyirish]

Originally posted by huma17@Dec 13 2005, 09:46 PM

Hey, Happyirish, your last post hurt my eyes.

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LOL. Sorry, I couldn't change it. I tried editing it but it just wouldn't budge. It was catchy, though . I mean, you couldn't miss it.