What happened before the pre-exestince ?

[Finrock]

No. Not, anymore than I think the elements that make up my physical body right now had awareness of self.

OK. Then do you also believe that Jesus Christ did not exist at some point?

Regards,

Finrock

[Seminarysnoozer]

OK. Then do you also believe that Jesus Christ did not exist at some point?

Regards,

Finrock

I believe there has always been a Christ as the plan of progression is eternal. Like Joseph Smith puts it, a ring that goes round and round, the same pattern over and over.

[Finrock]

First off, thank you for taking part in this dialogue. I hope I'm not coming across as someone who is trying to drill you!

I believe there has always been a Christ as the plan of progression is eternal. Like Joseph Smith puts it, a ring that goes round and round, the same pattern over and over.

I understand where you are coming from on this point. However, I think you've skirted my question. :)

If I may, I'll specify my question further by asking do you believe that Jesus the Christ, who was born and lived on this earth, always existed?

Regards,

Finrock

[Seminarysnoozer]

First off, thank you for taking part in this dialogue. I hope I'm not coming across as someone who is trying to drill you!

I understand where you are coming from on this point. However, I think you've skirted my question. :)

If I may, I'll specify my question further by asking do you believe that Jesus the Christ, who was born and lived on this earth, always existed?

Regards,

Finrock

I don't because I think He was born at some point. But if I am wrong about it, it's not part of my testimony or faith in Jesus because I won't really know the answer until the next life anyways.

[Finrock]

I don't because I think He was born at some point. But if I am wrong about it, it's not part of my testimony or faith in Jesus because I won't really know the answer until the next life anyways.

Cool. Thanks for the response.

In case anyone is interested, I cannot believe that "intelligence" of the "spirit matter" type is only a material to be acted upon. There are several reasons why I cannot accept this line of Mormon theology although I will not attempt to explain all of those reasons here or to debate them.

For me, I have for years felt that I am an individual and that I, just as Joseph Smith has stated, am co-eternal with God. And of course not just me, but all of us, are co-eternal with God. Saying that I am co-eternal with God because the spirit element from which I am composed of is eternal is reprehensible to reason. I can only exist if I can think and have awareness. If Joseph Smith's words about us being co-eternal with God is true, it must by necessity be that we as individual, intelligent, and sentient beings have exist forever.

But further, given the fact that we are co-eternal beings with God makes the reason for our being here and the reason why God would have a plan at all, meaningful. If we are co-eternal beings, limited and constrained, then a being such as God who has perfect love would do nothing less than provide us, limited and constrained beings, with an opportunity to be like Him.

Lastly, the notion that I am a co-eternal being with God further deepens that sense of responsibility that I have in being a free agent. In every phase of my existence I have had the ability to choose but it was God who gave me the environment in which I could actually exercise that ability to choose.

Anyways, I just wanted to share my perspective. Thanks for answering my questions and helping me to understand this line of theology in Mormonology (if that is even a word).

Kind Regards,

Finrock

[Seminarysnoozer]

Cool. Thanks for the response.

In case anyone is interested, I cannot believe that "intelligence" of the "spirit matter" type is only a material to be acted upon. There are several reasons why I cannot accept this line of Mormon theology although I will not attempt to explain all of those reasons here or to debate them.

For me, I have for years felt that I am an individual and that I, just as Joseph Smith has stated, am co-eternal with God. And of course not just me, but all of us, are co-eternal with God. Saying that I am co-eternal with God because the spirit element from which I am composed of is eternal is reprehensible to reason. I can only exist if I can think and have awareness. If Joseph Smith's words about us being co-eternal with God is true, it must by necessity be that we as individual, intelligent, and sentient beings have exist forever.

But further, given the fact that we are co-eternal beings with God makes the reason for our being here and the reason why God would have a plan at all, meaningful. If we are co-eternal beings, limited and constrained, then a being such as God who has perfect love would do nothing less than provide us, limited and constrained beings, with an opportunity to be like Him.

Lastly, the notion that I am a co-eternal being with God further deepens that sense of responsibility that I have in being a free agent. In every phase of my existence I have had the ability to choose but it was God who gave me the environment in which I could actually exercise that ability to choose.

Anyways, I just wanted to share my perspective. Thanks for answering my questions and helping me to understand this line of theology in Mormonology (if that is even a word).

Kind Regards,

Finrock

Your words are very emotional and it is easy to agree with but I think that a lot of people over interpret the words of Joseph Smith in this regard. And, I realize there are many scholars in the church that run with this concept and it starts to become part of mainstream 'mormonology' as you put it but really has not been revealed to us yet. There are scholars like Daniel Ludlow who expound on this topic and my friends that have attended BYU have discussed this topic with me many times.

I think its important though to not take Joseph Smith's words out of context. In the King Follett Sermon, where I think most of this comes from (not sure), he was speaking in relation to the funeral of Elder Follett. Even Joseph F. Smith had some discomfort with the concepts written in short hand from the talk and so they were kept out of publication for a while.

I think his main point (as he even says, I have to touch on this briefly) is that there is no annihilation of spirits. That spirits continues after death. And the proof that it does is that it is co-eternal with God meaning it existed in spiritual form before this world began. He even states the elements are co-eternal, that of course does not mean the elements have a conscious. I think Joseph was trying to assure all those in attendance that King Follett's spirit will live on, he was trying to comfort them.

There are also statements that the Holy Ghost is co-eternal with Heavenly Father and Jesus making them one eternal God. But ask yourself if you think the Holy Ghost is one individual, eternally in that position. If you make an exception to the use of the word 'co-eternal' for that case then you have to really wonder about it's use everywhere else.

I think one thing is more certain, that spiritual material is co-eternal with God and cannot have an end because it did not have a beginning. We can still say that individuals, the sons and daughters of God, had a beginning without contradicting the first statement because spiritual matter is not created or destroyed just like the matter that makes up your physical body is not created or destroyed. I do not believe in the annihilation of souls but still believe in the birth of souls.

If one does not believe in the birth of souls, I feel sorry for all those 'intelligences' that are simply waiting around for someone to put them into a spiritual body ... or do you believe you will not have the opportunity to have spiritual children at some point?

One last statement, I don't think anyone here is capable of understanding the concept of a consciousness without form. If there is such a thing as a consciousness without a way to express itself then it is really, to me, is not a consciousness. That's like saying there are a bunch of novels out there that exist but have yet to be conceived in someones mind. Someone has to think about them before they are put into physical form but they exist before they are even thought about. I feel no less eternal to believe that I had Heavenly parents that through their exhalted status gave birth to me, than if I believed that I already existed before and they simply gave me a shape or form.

In either case, I know my spirit lives on as I know you do too. Thanks for the convo.

Edited February 26, 2010 by Seminarysnoozer
typo

[RanMan]

There is no such thing as "pre-existence", and thus there is no such thing as before pre-existence.

I disagree. If there exists something beyond the space/time continuum in which we live, then there is the possibility of a pre-existence. That would be the existence outside of our dimension that predates our own. (Sorry, did I just show my geekish sci-fi side.)

:)

[Justice]

I'll use your last line to summarize your entire quote to save space.

I think it is better to think of it as a system, 'intelligence', than it is to think of it as a single form of matter.

I have never heard anyone express this idea before, but it is exactly what I believe.

I'd like to add one thought. This thread is full of posts about "beginning," and many have refuted your belief (before you even stated them) by using the logic that "if we had a beginning then we must have an end." I just think it's a misunderstanding, or misapplication of the logic needed to understand how this cannot be when looking at the spirit world.

Let's use the life of this physical world as an example. We know this world had a beginning. It was created. We also know that it will eventually be remade and reshaped, and it's particles will be used to make another world, for infinity. So, the earth had a beginning and will have an end. However, the particles used to create it did not have a beginning, nor will they have an end. So, you're going to have to "play along" with my example and realize it's just an example, because as long as we're mortal and in time, we have no examples that we can see of things that exist forever.

Now, with that in mind, why is it so hard to believe that something can be "of" something else that is "of" something else, that is "of" something else, that is "of" something else, etc for infinity (backwards), and not exist forever from that point on?

In this earth we see trees that are "of" trees before it, which are "of" trees before it, until the creation of this world. Yes, the trees die, but that's because they are part of the fallen mortal world.

Before we came to this earth we could not procreate (for whatever reason). Part of coming here was to gain that knowledge or power. Now that we have, and we are immortal... once we are glorified and perfected and IMMORTAL, why would our offspring ever have to cease to exist just for the sole reason that we are offspring (or had a beginning) of an eternal God? And, for that matter, why would God have to cease to exist if He was offspring (or had a beginning) of an eternal God?

I think the logic is faulty, and that train of thought is dwelling too much on mortal life and what we know. I believe a lifeform that is created WILL exist forever, and CANNOT cease to exist because it is spirit not just physical.

Since the materials that make up spirits (intelligence) and physical bodies (physical matter) have existed forever, and we are offspring of a race that existed forever, I believe that is enough for sons and daughters of that race to exist forever.

So, I find the logic previously mentioned faulty.

I think Seminary's thoughts should be given thought, and we shouldn't dwell so much, or have our beliefs shaped so much, by things we really don't understand. There are possibilities out there that we really can't grasp. It just boils down to what we choose to believe.

Anyway, the speculation is fun.

Edited February 27, 2010 by Justice

[Justice]

Also, we have been told that men and women must be sealed (or married) in the eternities in order to inherit the highest degree of glory in the afterlife. We know this implies, and has been explicitly stated, that the reward for exaltation is to be able to use your procreative powers and have children of your own.

If all life (of man) already exists, and has always existed, then what is the reward for exaltation?

I would need an explanation of how this works, because I see the two as directly opposing each other. If all life already exists, and has forever, then how can we be spirit sons and daughters of heavenly parents?

[Justice]

I disagree. If there exists something beyond the space/time continuum in which we live, then there is the possibility of a pre-existence. That would be the existence outside of our dimension that predates our own. (Sorry, did I just show my geekish sci-fi side.)

:)

Vanhin means it is more properly stated as "pre-mortal existence." Because, there can be no existence before excistence. And, since life has always existed...

Does that make sense?

[HEthePrimate]

In the beginning were fire and ice, with the existence of only two worlds. When the warm air of Muspelheim hit the cold ice of Niflheim, the ice giant Ymir and the icy cow Audhumla were created. Ymir's foot bred a son, and a man and a woman emerged from his armpits, making Ymir the progenitor of the giants. While Ymir slept, the intense heat from Muspelheim made him sweat, and he sweated out Surtr, a giant of fire. Later Ymir woke and drank Audhumla's milk. While he drank, the cow Audhumla licked on a salt stone. On the first day after this a man's hair appeared on the stone, on the second day a head and on the third day an entire man emerged from the stone. His name was Búri and with an unknown female giant he fathered Borr, the father of the three gods Odin, Vili and Ve...

HEP

[Moksha]

none of this is actually doctrine but its fun speculating.

While also not doctrine, I remember an episode where The Doctor went way ahead in the future, then the controls of the TARDIS became stuck and he plummeted way back in the past - building up tremendous time potential energy along the way. At some point it went critical and resulted in a very Big Bang. If I remember right, The Doctor and Romana were hurled into E-Space. Think that is somewhere in West Valley City.

Anyway, speculation is fun. Lights the ontological spark that keeps us safe and sound from the atheists at night.

[RanMan]

Vanhin means it is more properly stated as "pre-mortal existence." Because, there can be no existence before excistence. And, since life has always existed...

Does that make sense?

Yes it makes sense. My comment was made with that understanding. And I am saying it is possible that this dimension may not have existed at one time. This dimension is existence. There may have been a pre existence.

Of course this quantum physics stuff is interesting to contemplate, but it doesn't really change our doctrines any. I thought I would introduce a geekiness level to the discussion. How was I to know that this forum had a NO GEEK policy.

:)

[Seminarysnoozer]

Since the materials that make up spirits (intelligence) and physical bodies (physical matter) have existed forever, and we are offspring of a race that existed forever, I believe that is enough for sons and daughters of that race to exist forever.

So, I find the logic previously mentioned faulty.

I think Seminary's thoughts should be given thought, and we shouldn't dwell so much, or have our beliefs shaped so much, by things we really don't understand. There are possibilities out there that we really can't grasp. It just boils down to what we choose to believe.

Anyway, the speculation is fun.

Thanks, the other thing I find hard to understand and believe is the fate of those spirits that were cast out if one believes that those spirits existed before God came along. In other words, you would have to ask yourself if the spirits that were cast out are better off or worse off now if one believes they existed as a 'consciousness' before receiving a spirit body.

If God doesn't have power to control the mix of 'intelligence' to form spirits that would most likely keep their first estate then I can see how a third of them would be lost. If God does have control in "picking" from the intelligences that existed before the plan started, then why pick those that would choose Lucifer's plan? or even pick the spirit that would become Lucifer?

My feeling is that the pre-spirit material 'intelligence' has uniformity and therefore no way to tell what the 'consciousness' would look like or be like until it is actually formed. At least, that makes me feel better about knowing we all had the same chance to keep our first estate, that there was no pre-condemnation of those spirits before they were formed. If one states that the 'intelligence' was chosen to make Jehovah then one would also have to say that the 'intelligence' to form Lucifer and all those that followed him would have be chosen for that purpose too ... and I don't think that is how it happened.

The other factor that makes it hard to understand that we were just all hanging out and God came around and said I have a plan ... 'let me give you a spirit body and make this happen' is that what would give God power to condemn all those that didn't keep their first estate? If one believes the spirit body is just another covering like our physical body, I can't see how God would have that much authority to condemn that component that He, in that theoretical situation, had no real authority over. One would have to say that He had authority because He was the smartest and the most progressed, not because He is our Father. I have a hard time swallowing the idea that God is God because He was the smartest, the most powerful and the most progressed. I think God is God because He is the beginning, for us.

[Justice]

Yep, well said. We believe very much alike.

[Clary]

You are correct in saying there is no real "beginning," as far as we know. We are very limited on what we know from the revelations on this subject as far as I am aware. But we do have some great hints given through modern revelation.

In D&C 93:29 we learn that intelligence is was not created, nor can be. (in the sense of being created from nothing ie: Creation ex nihlo) If this is the case then God was never "created." Just like our Father in Heaven there is something about us that is eternally existent as well. In the same revelation we are told that "element" is eternal (v.33)

We don't know if our Heavenly Father specifically "started" as a spirit baby and progressed through mortality as we do, but we do know that we are to receive a body, be resurrected through the power of Christ, and be sanctified by the atonement of Christ so as to receive the same blessings and status as the Father. To some this may imply that our Father in Heaven must have done the same thing that we must do now. We do know that God operates by eternal law, and could not be an Exalted Man without obedience to that eternal law.