What happened before the pre-exestince ?

[Kukui]

John, you are sooo Mormon. To celebrate we are having a swimming party. You are invited. Wear white!

Except for one thing you pretty much have the speculative party line. You said

Before all this ever happened, God was a man, before that, He was a spirit baby, before that, I would guess He didn't exist.

The “before that, I would guess He didn’t exist” is the only glaring mistake. Here I would think that your personal beliefs and the LDS beliefs are nearly the same. He always existed.

[wondering23]

Interesting post. I have a few theories but no actual idea from a growing up in a pentecostal stand point I always questioned on how God came to be and no one could answer that question so I started to believe "I'd find out when I died".

[JohnOF123]

John, you are sooo Mormon. To celebrate we are having a swimming party. You are invited. Wear white!

Except for one thing you pretty much have the speculative party line. You said

The “before that, I would guess He didn’t exist” is the only glaring mistake. Here I would think that your personal beliefs and the LDS beliefs are nearly the same. He always existed.

Lol, gee thx. :)

And curious. How can this be with eternal progression. For instance, God the Father was as spirit baby by another God. Well that God must have been a man too. If that other God was a man too, then the spirit baby God the Father was not born yet, while he was a man? right?

[gabelpa]

In the Pearl of Great Price, we learn that our spirits were organised from intelligences that have always existed, and cannot be either created or destroyed (Kinda like Energy in Einsteinian Physics I suspect). God, has always existed, for an Eternity in the past. If there is anything outside that Eternity, then God would be one of these intelligences that was formed in to a Spirit, and achieved Exaltation, and, hence has always existed.

We can get in to all sorts of fun speculation, but speculation is all that this is.

[fireshark]

start writing down the question so when we meet him we'll ask him...as gabelpa said he already existed, because it could not be created...but how? this can mean the same as the Lavoisier rule states: "nothing can be created, nothing can be lost. I can only be transformed"

So, the matter to "create" God already existed, but he actually didn't...the matter was transformed into the baby spirit as stated by John..It's a funny way to see it but...we'll never know while we are mortals, and let's keep the speculation as an interesting way of seeing this stuff...not as doctrine...

I got a cool theory about how God is in his kingdom (near Colobe) and then shows up here

who wants to know? (another funny speculation) :)

[Seminarysnoozer]

I believe in an infinite progression and regression of Gods.

The same stuff that we have been exposed to has previously and will continue to occur.

The names and places have just changed.

"regression" do I dare ask what you mean by that? I guess I just did.

My understanding of God, is one that cannot stop progressing, that there is no end to glory obtained and so a God cannot regress. I think there is a difference between Gods and Angels. We know of fallen angels but not fallen Gods.

[JohnOF123]

I got a cool theory about how God is in his kingdom (near Colobe) and then shows up here

who wants to know? (another funny speculation) :)

I have a funny speculation about how God is gonna be ticked off that we are demoting Him to some little god of many, who wants to hear it, lol.

Ok, I'm just giving you a hard time Fireshark. Let's hear your speculation.

Edited February 23, 2010 by JohnOF123

[Seminarysnoozer]

In the Pearl of Great Price, we learn that our spirits were organised from intelligences that have always existed, and cannot be either created or destroyed (Kinda like Energy in Einsteinian Physics I suspect). God, has always existed, for an Eternity in the past. If there is anything outside that Eternity, then God would be one of these intelligences that was formed in to a Spirit, and achieved Exaltation, and, hence has always existed.

We can get in to all sorts of fun speculation, but speculation is all that this is.

I think people mix up these terms so much that they become part of our regular vernacular even though we have to speak in generalities. "Intelligences" are spirits and therefore cannot be formed into a spirit as you stated. Intelligence may be formed into a spirit but 'intelligences' by definition is already a spirit.

Also, Intelligence is used to describe the laws of the universe under which we operate, which are light and truth. These are principles that cannot be made or created, they are just truth like the laws of gravity, etc. One cannot make the law of gravity, it is there as the elements are eternal, so it cannot be made or destroyed. So, we have to be careful in not mixing up the terms of Intelligence (truth and light), Intelligence (the presumed material from which spirits are formed) and Intelligence (a formed or organized intelligence or spirit). I see those things as 3 separate things but people in our religion mix and match them so much it becomes very confusing.

[Vanhin]

Two points to begin with. There is no such thing as "pre-existence", and thus there is no such thing as before pre-existence.

Modern prophets and apostles have opined a lot of things, but the "doctrines" that are meant to be binding on members of the Church are found in the scriptures. It would have been easy for the brethren to include a clear infinite regress of Gods in the scriptures, by going through the process that adds to our canon, but they haven't yet. No hint of the Father's father, and his father, and so forth. Only language similar to the following:

By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them; And that he created man, male and female, after his own image and in his own likeness, created he them; And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship. (D&C 20:17-19)

The couplet, "As man is God once was, and as God is man may become", is truth for sure. However, we don't know for sure what the first part means. We can only speculate, and even our own leaders would simply say "we don't know". In fact as a missionary we were visited by General Authorities quite often, and they would have these Q&A sessions with us. On one occasion, Elder John E. Fowler of the Second Quorum of the Seventy held one of these sessions, and the question was asked, "Does Heavenly Father have a father?". He didn't even have to think about it, the answer was "We don't know."

This is the reason President Hinckley answered the following when he was asked about it on a Time Magazine interview: "I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it. I haven’t heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don’t know. I don’t know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don’t know a lot about it and I don’t know that others know a lot about it." (Nature of God/Hinckley downplaying the King Follett Discourse - FAIRMormon)

Now, one thing we know a good eal about is man becoming like God. This doctrine is clearly taught in our scriptures, and we have been given some details. But our revealed knowledge concerning that also has its limits. We don't know everything about that either. We have lots of questions, and lots of good answers to look forward to. The 9th article of faith applies:

We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. (Articles of Faith 1)

In the mean time, we should not discount the plain message of the scriptures that we do have.

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited February 23, 2010 by Vanhin

[Vanhin]

I think people mix up these terms so much that they become part of our regular vernacular even though we have to speak in generalities. "Intelligences" are spirits and therefore cannot be formed into a spirit as you stated. Intelligence may be formed into a spirit but 'intelligences' by definition is already a spirit.

Also, Intelligence is used to describe the laws of the universe under which we operate, which are light and truth. These are principles that cannot be made or created, they are just truth like the laws of gravity, etc. One cannot make the law of gravity, it is there as the elements are eternal, so it cannot be made or destroyed. So, we have to be careful in not mixing up the terms of Intelligence (truth and light), Intelligence (the presumed material from which spirits are formed) and Intelligence (a formed or organized intelligence or spirit). I see those things as 3 separate things but people in our religion mix and match them so much it becomes very confusing.

Ah... I thought I was alone out here. :)

Intelligence has several meanings, three of which are:1 It is the light of truth which gives life and light to all things in the universe. It has always existed.2 The word intelligences may also refer to spirit children of God.3 The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to the spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children. (Guide to the Scriptures: Intelligence, Intelligences)

Regards,

Vanhin

[Finrock]

Good morning Seminarysnoozer! I hope you are doing well today. :)

...Intelligence (the presumed material from which spirits are formed)...

This is an old debate, but it is this part that I've never been able to make sense of. I understand that you may not have a perfect answer to my following questions, but I simply am asking what your understanding is and how you envision or think about these things when you are thinking about them.

So, what do you understand this "material" to be by which spirits were formed? Why do you think it is called "intelligence" rather than "spirit matter"? I guess what I really want to know, according to your understanding, is that this "intelligence material" by which spirits are formed, does it have actual intelligence and self awareness, or is it just "material" and no awareness exist before it is formed in to a spirit body?

Regards,

Finrock

[Blackmarch]

Like HOW did God get to be God and How did he come to be ? What happened before he made up this wonderfull plan for us and before we were spirits.. ?

Get what im saying

Not a clue, we aren't told. All i know is that Christ said he does everything he's seen his Father do, and i havve no idea how far you can take that.

[annamaureen]

Like HOW did God get to be God and How did he come to be ? What happened before he made up this wonderfull plan for us and before we were spirits.. ?

I certainly don't know, but it boggles the brain to think about it.

[mikbone]

"regression" do I dare ask what you mean by that? I guess I just did.

Here is a good place to start:

Nature of God/Infinite regress of Gods - FAIRMormon

My favorite quote though is Joseph Smith's Sermon in the Grove June 16th 1844 (Bullock Report), see June 16, 1844

The same can be found in the Teachings of the Phrophet Joseph Smith p. 373

Learned by Translating the Book of Abraham

I learned it by translating the papyrus now in my house---I learned a test. concerning Abraham & he reasoned concerng. the God of Heaven-- in order to do that sd. he--suppose we have two facts that supposes that anotr. fact may exist two men on the earth--one wiser than the other-- wod. show that another who is wiser than the wisest may exist-- intelligences exist one above anotr. that there is no end to it-- if Abra. reasoned thus--

No End to Gods

if J. C. was the Son of God & John discd. that God the Far. of J. C. had a far. you may suppose that he had a Far. also---where was ther ever a Son witht. a Far.---where ever did tree or any thing spring into existence witht. a progenitor-- & every thing comes in this way--Paul says that which is Earthyly is in likeness of that which is Heavenly-- hence if J. had a Far. can we not believe that he had a Fa.r also--I despise the idea of being scared to death--I want you all to pay particr. attent. J. sd. as the Far. wrought precisely in the same way as his Far. had done bef-- as the Far. had done bef--he laid down his life & took it up same as his Far. had done before--he did as he was sent to lay down his life & take it up again & was then committed unto him the keys &c I know it is good reasoning--

My favorite hymn by the way is:

If you could Hie to Kolob, Hymn 284

1. If you could hie to Kolob In the twinkling of an eye,

And then continue onward With that same speed to fly,

Do you think that you could ever, Through all eternity,

Find out the generation Where Gods began to be?

2. Or see the grand beginning, Where space did not extend?

Or view the last creation, Where Gods and matter end?

Me thinks the Spirit whispers, "No man has found 'pure space,'

Nor seen the outside curtains, Where nothing has a place."

3. The works of God continue, And worlds and lives abound;

Improvement and progression Have one eternal round.

There is no end to matter; There is no end to space;

There is no end to spirit; There is no end to race.

4. There is no end to virtue; There is no end to might;

There is no end to wisdom; There is no end to light.

There is no end to union; There is no end to youth;

There is no end to priesthood; There is no end to truth.

5. There is no end to glory; There is no end to love;

There is no end to being; There is no death above.

There is no end to glory; There is no end to love;

There is no end to being; There is no death above.

Edited February 23, 2010 by mikbone

[Guest mysticmorini]

my speculation, based on the pearl of great price is that in the beginning we all existed as "intelligences" God or Heavenly father being the greatest of them all figured out how to create his body and how to create planets for his body to dwell on, once he discovered our intelligences he created the process for us to receive spirit bodies, physical bodies and ultimately glorified bodies like his.

[marts1]

Like HOW did God get to be God and How did he come to be ? What happened before he made up this wonderfull plan for us and before we were spirits.. ?

Get what im saying

I think all this existance stuff has seen no beginning. If there was a beginning then there would have to be an end. If this were the case we would not be.

[fireshark]

jon i'll tell you later...marts1 something that has a begining doesn't need to have an end...

Christ said: I am the begining and the end, the alfa and the omega...what he really ment? ^^ (I know the answer, don't bother giving it )

I believe there could actually be a begining, if we go eternally to the past...and there's actually an end for some of us...those who will not marry, they're kingdom will end there so...if we go [eternal] years to the future, and we create a world for our children, we existed for all the eternity for them, as we begined [eternal] years in the past and will be there for all eternity...

but main question: Does this knowledge really matters?

not at all, so let's party and be happy....because being mormon is being happy

jon, as my speculation:

there's a theory that says that when we hit the speed of light the time freezes, based on some tests at high speed, in which a clock travelling in a "car" at high speed (over 400km/h) "moved slowlier" than the one outside...

As we see, God always appears with light...catching up the idea? funny way to think about it, I like using science to prove God, which actually is happening a lot but whatever...

Sorry if it wasn't that "great" for you, but as a future Bio engineer, I really like science (but God first of course)

[JohnOF123]

Sorry if it wasn't that "great" for you, but as a future Bio engineer, I really like science (but God first of course)

No, not at all. It was good. I appreciate hearing your ideas. So if you like ideas, think about this one. Here is my theory on why I believe time is finite (not infinite).

Let's say I told you that I would give you a candy bar, but you first had to wait an infinite amount of time before I did.

Would you ever get that candy bar? The answer is no. You would always be waiting for that infinite amount of time to go by before I gave it to you.

Time can extend into the future infinitely, but not into the past.

NOW apply that logic to the past. "How could you ever reach this day (present) if there is an infinite amount of time before it?"

You would always have to wait more time to reach today. It doesn't matter how close you think you're getting to today, you still have to wait an infinite amount of time. You would never reach today. Therefore, time is finite and had a beginning.

This is why scientists today believe that "time" started 15 bil years ago with the big bang. I don't believe that, but the point is they demand that time must have a beginning.

I think the Biblical account of 6000+ years ago is more scientific, and I'll give you one example. Take one of the laws of thermodynamics. All bodies of matter will reach equal temperature (equilibrium) given enough time. Now lets say you have 2 cups of tea in the same room. 1 cup is hot and the other cup is cold. Eventually, those liquids are going to reach the same temperature. Lets look at space. Comets are ice, they are the cold cups of tea going around the sun. We know they are constantly melting because of their tail. Stars are your hot cups of tea, they will burn our, given enough time. It doesn't matter how long you think this will take, with an infinite amount of time in the past you can multiply a billion by a trillion by a zillion, etc. Time must have had a beginning. You might have to review this again, some (like my wife) cannot wrap their minds around infinite numbers and concepts.

Edited February 23, 2010 by JohnOF123

[marts1]

jon i'll tell you later...marts1 something that has a begining doesn't need to have an end...

Christ said: I am the begining and the end, the alfa and the omega...what he really ment? ^^ (I know the answer, don't bother giving it )

I believe there could actually be a begining, if we go eternally to the past...and there's actually an end for some of us...those who will not marry, they're kingdom will end there so...if we go [eternal] years to the future, and we create a world for our children, we existed for all the eternity for them, as we begined [eternal] years in the past and will be there for all eternity...

but main question: Does this knowledge really matters?

not at all, so let's party and be happy....because being mormon is being happy

jon, as my speculation:

there's a theory that says that when we hit the speed of light the time freezes, based on some tests at high speed, in which a clock travelling in a "car" at high speed (over 400km/h) "moved slowlier" than the one outside...

As we see, God always appears with light...catching up the idea? funny way to think about it, I like using science to prove God, which actually is happening a lot but whatever...

Sorry if it wasn't that "great" for you, but as a future Bio engineer, I really like science (but God first of course)

I was sure I stated only concerning existance and not anything else. Thats two completely different things.

[fireshark]

nah Jon i got the idea, and I didn't say there wasn't a beggining, i just stated that 100 bilions years for us is like "eternal"...i understand what you mean, still speculation isn't going to give us salvation :)

[Wisc]

The problem is some of us are looking for this really bizzar, exciting, and complex story of where we're from, why we're here, and who we are. Truth is (and you'd know too if you asked) we're simply the sons and daughters of the one and true living God. He has no beginning. No end. We dont either and we forget that because we think only in the now. We see babies born we see people die- but that is only a phase in an eternal experience. Its like basing an entire 12 year public school educational experience off of the 3 hour field trip to the museum you took in 3rd grade.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Good morning Seminarysnoozer! I hope you are doing well today. :)

This is an old debate, but it is this part that I've never been able to make sense of. I understand that you may not have a perfect answer to my following questions, but I simply am asking what your understanding is and how you envision or think about these things when you are thinking about them.

So, what do you understand this "material" to be by which spirits were formed? Why do you think it is called "intelligence" rather than "spirit matter"? I guess what I really want to know, according to your understanding, is that this "intelligence material" by which spirits are formed, does it have actual intelligence and self awareness, or is it just "material" and no awareness exist before it is formed in to a spirit body?

Regards,

Finrock

This is a really good question, for me at least. Something I've pondered a lot and know I will not have an answer in this life. But if I am allowed to share my thoughts on it, I would say that 'intelligence' is synonymous to the word 'nature' that we use for this world and life. I don't think 'intelligence' is a single material in which spirits are formed but more of a system that we don't know much about and so we call it 'intelligence'. It's like the phrase "thats the way nature made it." Or using the phrase "mother nature". 'Intelligence' is like spiritual 'mother nature'. It is the truth and laws that cannot be created or made with which God operates. So when we say spirits are made from intelligence that has always existed, to me that is like saying babies are made by nature, the way nature always has done it.

This is why we need to learn about intelligence and obtain intelligence, then when we have the opportunity again to operate in that realm we will have a better understanding of light and truth and be able to use intelligence to bring about God's plan.

I imagine the actual material used is various and unknown and likely beyond our comprehension. I think it is too simple to call it light or photons, etc. I think it is better to think of it as a system, 'intelligence', than it is to think of it as a single form of matter.

[Rouel]

Like HOW did God get to be God and How did he come to be ? What happened before he made up this wonderfull plan for us and before we were spirits.. ?

Get what im saying

John A. Widtsoe, Program of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p.200

The plan itself, formulated by the higher personal intelligences for their own good and the welfare of others, began in the infinite past. The principles that underlie the plan for man's good on earth have been in operation throughout the ages, since man began his upward climb.

[Finrock]

Good afternoon Seminarysnoozer. :)

This is a really good question, for me at least. Something I've pondered a lot and know I will not have an answer in this life. But if I am allowed to share my thoughts on it, I would say that 'intelligence' is synonymous to the word 'nature' that we use for this world and life. I don't think 'intelligence' is a single material in which spirits are formed but more of a system that we don't know much about and so we call it 'intelligence'. It's like the phrase "thats the way nature made it." Or using the phrase "mother nature". 'Intelligence' is like spiritual 'mother nature'. It is the truth and laws that cannot be created or made with which God operates. So when we say spirits are made from intelligence that has always existed, to me that is like saying babies are made by nature, the way nature always has done it.

This is why we need to learn about intelligence and obtain intelligence, then when we have the opportunity again to operate in that realm we will have a better understanding of light and truth and be able to use intelligence to bring about God's plan.

I imagine the actual material used is various and unknown and likely beyond our comprehension. I think it is too simple to call it light or photons, etc. I think it is better to think of it as a system, 'intelligence', than it is to think of it as a single form of matter.

Thanks for the response. I think I understand what you are saying however, I still am unclear on one point. Based on your understanding of intelligence, do you believe that prior to a spirit child being begotten by Heavenly Father that they have awareness of self and intelligence (thinking, living, aware entity)?

Regards,

Finrock

[Seminarysnoozer]

Good afternoon Seminarysnoozer. :)

Thanks for the response. I think I understand what you are saying however, I still am unclear on one point. Based on your understanding of intelligence, do you believe that prior to a spirit child being begotten by Heavenly Father that they have awareness of self and intelligence (thinking, living, aware entity)?

Regards,

Finrock

No. Not, anymore than I think the elements that make up my physical body right now had awareness of self.