Kukui

I apologize for my insensitivity to the reference to MMM. Kukui

thekabalist, I thought your explanation of kehunah was interesting: The word Kahuna (click here) in Hawaiian has a similar meaning. I know that one coincidence doesn’t mean much but it is interesting to me. Kukui

In some of Hugh Nibley’s writings he discusses ancient manuscripts that discuss the apostles curiosity about how Mary conceived the Lord. Mary has the apostles stand in a circle as she recounts some of the details. As she gets to the sacred part of the story the Lord himself appeared and commanded Mary "to utter no more of this mystery." I think what we can say from some of these writings is that from the earliest times of the church people have been curious about the subject. I would agree with Cass and the writer of the documents in that these things are sacred and should be treated as such.

I like all the answers given and I may be a little too late to offer a suggestion, but what does it for me is when I study the last hours of Christ’s life from Gethsemane to the cross. Also people say that in D&C 19 that Christ was bearing his testimony so I like to change the words to the first person as follows: Then when I am trying to comprehend the suffering He went through I think of D&C At this point I am literally shaking with horror and I ask myself, “How could He do it?” “How could He do it?” And then I remember Matthew 22 Then it is so very clear to me that no one has ever kept this commandment so completely as Jesus has.

That is totally true in my case for a long time. Even in my present calling as door greeter I am learning and growing. I am by nature a shy person. If I had my druthers I would be a hermit; but the Lord won’t let me. The Lord has more ambition for me than I do.

Good point. I was speaking from memory and not from any source. My apologies. Generally we were told in times past that it began with Brigham Young. We don’t know when. We don’t know why. There is no known revelation instructing the withholding to begin. President Gordon B. Hinckley has stated that we don’t know why. There are records that show: 1836: In March, Elijah Abel, a black man, is ordained to the office of Elder. 1836: In December, Elijah Abel, is ordained to the office of Seventy. 1844: Walker Lewis, a black man, is ordained to the office of Elder. 1846: William McCary, a black man, is ordained to the office of Elder. A plausible explanation by some, and a person would have to go back and read early Mormon history to verify this, is that either Brigham Young or other brethren may have read the following verse: Abr. 1: 26 26 Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood. and may have decided this verse (revelation) applied to Blacks. However, now that you asked the question and I read into it a little deeper, I like President Gordon B. Hinckley’s statement that, “we don’t know why”, and we don’t know exactly when but certainly it appears that it would have started after William McCary ordination in 1846. Kukui

John, Thanks for clearing up that Jonah thing very nicely. I came into this thread late and 1. I don’t want you to feel like you are being ganged up on and 2. I want to see if I understand your comments/understanding about the transfiguration. So you are saying that the prediction “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels” is fulfilled in the first few verses in chapter 17? If the answer is yes, then what does “and then he shall reward every man according to his works” mean to you? Because that “reward” part throws my mind all the way to the end times. How are you seeing that reward thing as part of the same/current event? Or did I miss the point completely?

Another reason I love the utube of President Hinkley is because we don’t often hear about the intimate details of the inner workings of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve; at least I don’t. Before President Hinkley’s talk I had heard that when the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve meet on Thursdays in the upper room of the Salt Lake Temple that there is often lively discussion; each man having strong and often differing opinions on various subjects. Now what President Hinkley has added for me is that I can see once the discussion is over for that day and with all that has been discussed still fresh in their minds, the prophet leads the prayer and pleads with the Lord for guidance. That is soo Doctrine and Covenants. D&C 9: 8 8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right. Considering that they had been discussing and praying on the subject of the priesthood for all worthy males off and on at various times since at least the 1950s and then for them to all have the comfort in the minds and peace in the hearts experience at the same time is totally amazing. D&C 6: 23 Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God? I know from my own experience that I don’t always get an answer to prayer on the first try or two. Most often it takes a while. I also know, as many of you do, of the unmistakable witness that can come on certain special occasions.

That may well be mysticmorini. I am not privy to what the brethren were considering. I have heard Pres. Hinkley speak on this subject before and he mentioned that every president since David O. McKay had prayed earnestly about every worthy male holding the priesthood. I have never heard any thoughts expressed as you have indicated, which only leaves me to feel the brethren were more concerned with the welfare of those denied the priesthood rather than the difficulty in keeping the commandment because of mix population. But what ever is, is. If you are correct, I am so very glad for the revelation that came as told by President Hinkley.

Did the LDS Church bow to political pressure? This thread is in response to people who have used the above statement in reference to Blacks receiving the priesthood. Anyone who uses that statement is reading something someone wrote and does not know for themselves because they were not there. The writer using those statements is trying to mislead the reader. If you were born around 1953, you would have been about 15 in 1968. If you were younger than that, you would have most likely been unaware of the political pressure brought to bear on the Church to allow the Blacks to hold the priesthood. By 15 students in high school were required to read current affairs, and it may have reached the level of their attention. This is my narrow account as I was on the fringes so to speak and not in the middle of it. Other accounts may be more enlightening than mine. I had returned from my mission in Hong Kong at the end of 1966 and was attending BYU. I don’t remember the exact dates and am too lazy to look them up but what I remember is that during the time of Martin Luther King’s greatest activity in the late 60s there were many newspaper articles questioning the LDS church’s stand about Blacks holding the priesthood. I don’t remember Dr. King being one of those voices. I just associate the news articles being coincidental with the Black movement during Dr. King’s time. The Church did not buckle one iota during this time but maintained the same stance they always had, that the church could do more for the salvation of the Black community than any other church and for the time being they were not allowed to hold the priesthood. It was well known among the LDS in those days that that sanction would be repealed someday. Ten years later I was working as a civilian for the US Army in Japan. From what I remember from my far-way perch at that time, those clambering for the Blacks to hold the priesthood had long since died down. However, there are always those few who are and were shouting one thing or another and would love to claim that the church buckled under their pressure. Even newspapers or other journals would love to claim that their pressure from 10 years earlier brought the church around. That is not where the pressure came from. If you want to know where the pressure came from, come listen to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=229PFD_xOAM'> prophet’s voice. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=229PFD_xOAM'> Click here. Kukui

I love that picture! It kind of reminds me of my 9th grade annual picture. Just think of how beautiful the young people are today compared to the way we used to look just 50 or 60 years ago. The most beautiful girl 50 years ago would hardly be average today. Course we know that beauty is just skin deep and we all know how deep ugly goes. And just think anyone in that picture, if they are humble (which most of them are), and righteous, and keep the commandments, and receive the ordinances – just think – G-d has the power to raise them up to the highest levels of exaltation. The mind can scarcely comprehend it. Our Father in heaven most likely would have an easier time of getting them to exaltation than me; yet He keeps trying with me. It blows me away. Look at them. Can you see gods in there? Heavenly Father does. [He] hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; Makes me happy. Kukui

My understanding does not coincide with your statement. My understanding is that to take on an additional wife was a calling by a priesthood authority. A person didn’t just decide on there own to take on more wives. However, some abused this privilege. The callings went to those men who could afford to support more than one wife. My wife’s family who lived in Nauvoo and Utah were on the poor side and were never asked to participate. The more well to do ones were. The system of polygamy worked well for it’s time and circumstance when there were many more women than men in the wilderness of Utah even though it started earlier. No woman was denied an inheritance of the Lord due to lack of worthy priesthood holders. Kukui

My perception of the way you ask the questions is just because you can’t think of any reason that G-d would deny the priesthood to someone, therefore Mormons have to be racist or were racist at one time. I could be wrong in my perception, but I will try anyway. Consider the following non-doctrinal, highly speculative scenario. I give the following story only as a plausible explanation only. I do not claim it is true. What if – when Cain killed Able, he not only killed Able but he also killed all of Able’s posterity? True statement. Many of Able’s posterity could have been eligible for the priesthood through righteousness. True statement. What if God in his judgment and mercy declared that Cain’s posterity could not hold the priesthood until such time that Able’s posterity could also hold the priesthood? Plausible, but we don’t know. We know that in the early church a few blacks were given the priesthood; like the black family that came west with the saints. When Brigham Young received the revelation that blacks were not to have the priesthood he was not given a plausible explanation such as given above. The Lord just said don’t do it. So Brigham Young was left to his own feelings as to why, and those feelings reflect the feelings of many of his day. Those black folks who received the priesthood did not have the priesthood taken away from them but were ask not to use it. Brigham Young was exactly the type of personality and character the Lord needed to Moses the saints across thousands of miles of wilderness. He was not perfect but, who could have done better? I salute him. I admire him. I am so glad that all worthy males have the right to the priesthood and I cry with gladness when I see what the African saints are doing; it is so thrilling. Kukui

John, you are sooo Mormon. To celebrate we are having a swimming party. You are invited. Wear white! Except for one thing you pretty much have the speculative party line. You said The “before that, I would guess He didn’t exist” is the only glaring mistake. Here I would think that your personal beliefs and the LDS beliefs are nearly the same. He always existed.

It is interesting that you are researching the LDS religion and have come up with those 4 questions. I would suggest that you include in your research an in-depth study of the prophet Joseph Smith. A reading of the Book of Mormon would be invaluable in coming to an understanding of the LDS religion. This may seem odd but you could include in your scholarly research prayer because many of the things you will come across are spiritual in nature and can only be understood in a spiritual frame. I applauded your desire to undertake such research and hope you will treat the subject fairly and not as the pessimists do. Pessimists generally come to the first negative thing they find and stop there while further study may reveal greater understanding. Kukui

2 Ne. 25: 23 23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. Mosiah 4: 27 27 And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order. Matt 20 1-19 Jesus gives the parable of the laborers in the vineyard. Those who labored all day got a penny and those who only labored the last hour got the same as he who labored all day. Moro. 7: 47 47 But charity is the pure blove of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.

The way I remember it is that Clement of Rome (? – 96 A.D.) clearly wrote of three distinct and separate persons in the Godhead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tertullian'> Tertullian, (160 – 220 A.D.) first broached the subject. "Three Persons, one Substance" as the Latin "tres Personae, una Substantia" But it was Origen (185–254 A.D.) that fully developed the doctrine of the trinity, or the three persons in one idea. Kukui

Thanks Mike. That was a great read. Kukui

Prisonchaplain nailed this thread (What are the main reasons to embrace Mormonism?) when he wrote: It is really that simple. Either it happened the way Joseph Smith reported, or it didn’t. Right out of the gate Joseph restored the true nature of G-d. They were all present; the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost, all separate and they were preceded by the binding and dark force of the devil doing his utmost to prevent this ancient truth from being restored. Now that is a wow moment. That is worth praying about. Kukui

John in response to the quote ( I haven't figured out how to copy quotes yet) “And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil.…”—1 Nephi 14:10 Your wrote: "I assumed since I've heard many Mormons say that the LDS Church is the only true church, that Nephi was referring to A The Mormon faith and B all outside of it. Joseph Smith and many other prophets seem to possibly say this." My understanding is more in line with what Jesus said Matt 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. I also quote from Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. McConkie Pg. 137 under the heading Church of the Devil “The title Church of the Devil and great and abominable church are used to identify all churches or organizations of whatever name or nature – whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal., civic or religious – which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God had his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God.” I believe Nephi and Joseph Smith had the broader view in mind as well. Kukui

Pam I would say that you have a sound understanding of the principles of the atonement. You wrote: “The Savior was born on this earth rather than any other because it is the most wicked world in all the universe.” And you wrote: “What about this world being the most wicked of all the worlds? “ Using the following as your basis: “among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren. (Moses 7:36)” Reading your words as quoted above, whether you intended it or not, I (as a reader) would get a lousy feeling about myself being here. There are some things that can be considered however. Adam and Eve were alive during the time of Enoch and indeed all the patriarchs to Enoch’s day, if I have not missed something, were alive or had lived during Enoch’s time. Adam and Eve and the patriarchs were among the most righteous people that have ever walked the face of this earth or any earth even to this day; Adam being very much like Christ. Also consider that in Moses 7 verses 21 – 23 and so on, the righteous had all been taken up into Zion leaving mostly the wicked of the earth left. Further reading will show that as people repented were also separated or taken up into Zion. Then your verse 36 would make since, and it seems to me that Enoch was not included among the group about whom the Lord was speaking. It appears to me that there is a spectrum of wickedness to righteous and when ever there has been great wickedness there has, at the same time, been great righteousness present but not necessarily in terms of numbers of persons. In your post the questioner also stated: “I believe the answer to be approximately: It is not for us (except to him or her to whom the Lord may reveal such mysteries) to know of things that transpire on other worlds, as those things have no bearing on our salvation. … But is there a better answer?” As to, “is there a better answer?” I can not say. However, the comment, “(except to him or her to whom the Lord may reveal such mysteries).” I would take from context that statement to be referring to prophecies referring to other worlds. In Moses 1:40 we see a pattern when the Lord said: And now, Moses, my son, I will speak unto thee concerning this earth upon which thou standest; and thou shalt write the things which I shall speak. With the exception of a few obtuse references by Joseph Smith (as far as I know) none of the prophets have spoken or written about anything other than that pertains to this earth. We can say as you (Pam) have said that the atonement of Jesus Christ is infinite and would cover all of God’s children where ever they may be. We can not say with certainty what other children of other worlds may or may not have been given in terms of knowledge or priesthood. We can say with confidence what ever they have been given, they will be judged according to the laws which they have received. The problem is comments about other worlds or “mother in heaven” or what ever we know little about are like spreading photons of light in between which is darkness (unknown). The human mind hates darkness or in other words loves to fill in the blanks. What is plane is that Heavenly Father will fill in the blanks in His own time, and in His own way, and according to His own will. Just one more minor thing. In your response you started out with “First of all, Jesus is not the creator…” That comes across to me as a little dogmatic. You may want to soften that up a bit by saying something like “My understanding is…” That way it gives the reader a little wiggle room. Now that I have read what I have written I see that I have not been all that positive when I really like what you have written. I feel as you do when you said “So the plan of life and salvation is one and the same for all our Father’s children, and the Firstborn Son, and Only Begotten, is the Savior of all the universe.” In the context of this topic we might, with some trepidation, modify the words of King Benjamin to read: Mosiah 3: 17 17 And moreover, I say unto you, that there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men (God), only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent. Kukui