Faded Posted March 18, 2010 Report Posted March 18, 2010 I was just curious as I have a PC and my good friend has a Mac, I've never really been a part of the PC, Mac battle, and I'm still not, but I would like to know why any of you prefer one over the other.For me I use a PC because that's what I've always used and never known much about macs, but I'm kind of intrigued by the Macs...Your thoughts?The two cheapest Macitosh computers available at their website: 21.5-inch: 3.06GHz3.06GHz Intel Core 2 Duo1920 x 1080 resolution4GB memory500GB hard drive18x double-layer SuperDriveNVIDIA GeForce 9400M graphics----------------------------$1,199.00 (Fully loaded with all available upgrades, $2,721.90)21.5-inch: 3.06GHz3.06GHz Intel Core 2 Duo1920 x 1080 resolution4 GB memory1TB hard drive8x double-layer SuperDrive ATI Radeon HD 4670 graphics with 256MB----------------------------$1,499.00 (Fully loaded with all available upgrades, $3,670.90)Cheapest computer at HP website: AMD Sempron LE1300 processor [2.3GHz, 512KB L2, up to 1600MT/s bus] 2GB DDR2-800MHz SDRAM [1 DIMM] 320GB 7200 rpm SATA 3Gb/s hard drive Integrated NVIDIA GeForce 6150 SE [VGA] HP w1858 18.5-inch 16:9 HD Ready Widescreen MonitorLightScribe 16X max. DVD+/-R/RW SuperMulti drive $299.00 (if you already have a monitor and don't want to buy an new one ) $459.98 with monitor $2,939.97 Fully loaded with all available upgradesThe difference? Price! Macs are just WAY MORE EXPENSIVE than PC's. I know very well that they tend to make a superior product, I just don't want to pay 3 to 5 times as much money to get their product. I know Windows, I would have to learn Mac OS. I know that it's a better OS, but it's a large expense to venture off into the unknown world of Macintosh. The day that Mac provides a quality machine at comparable price to PCs is the day they become a real threat to Windows'/PC's virtual monopoly of the personal computer industry.
Faded Posted March 18, 2010 Report Posted March 18, 2010 Consider the Mac Pro for a moment. Beautiful and powerful machine that I'd love to have but will never buy:Starting price: $3,299.00. Fully upgraded: $20,724.85
Mahone Posted March 18, 2010 Report Posted March 18, 2010 I know that it's a better OS, but it's a large expense to venture off into the unknown world of Macintosh. I'd be very interested to find out how you know this, because any proof you can give us will finally put an end to a debate which has been raging among IT professionals for years.
Mahone Posted March 18, 2010 Report Posted March 18, 2010 What was the protocol to upgrade to Windows 7? Copy all your files to an external location, up grade, move all the files back - of get a special transfer program but wait, it won't work to files from a 64-bit version to a 32-bit version - oh, and it will transfer music and video files but don't the licenses for DRM. Oh, and then theres the endless reboots and product key problems, and so on and on and on and on.Are you sure this is correct? I'm not silly enough to have any DRM content on my computer, so I don't know about that. But I'm fairly positive there is no reason to backup your files to an external hard drive when you are doing a simple upgrade, with the exception of having a backup for backups sake. You should always have a backup of your files regardless of operating system, let alone when doing major changes such as this. I've not been through this process myself, I refuse to ever do an "upgrade" OS install on my computers. I always do a clean install, because there is always some redundant files that will get left behind somewhere. This happens on OSX as well as windows. However I cannot find anything which says that this is absolutely necessary.
marts1 Posted March 18, 2010 Report Posted March 18, 2010 I've been running a pc since the 98 days playing some extremely graphics hungry games online and such and have not experienced hardly any of the negatives mentioned in this thread. Two viruses in 12 years and I usually don't use any anti virus progs, I don't call a problem. I am also one who likes to treat the pc as a hobby.
Faded Posted March 18, 2010 Report Posted March 18, 2010 I'd be very interested to find out how you know this, because any proof you can give us will finally put an end to a debate which has been raging among IT professionals for years. Yeah, I'm one of those crazy IT professionals. Windows and Mac OS were both always bloated and frustratingly inefficient operating systems. They both still are for the most part, but Apple did something intelligent when they put together Mac OS 10. They took the kernel from a truly efficient OS (Free BSD, which is a version of Linux) and built their new OS on that kernel. All versions of Mac OS since have been built on a Linux kernel. The GUI intensive OS they built on top of that kernel isn't designed how I would have done it, but at least they started with a strong foundation. I'm not a huge fan of Mac OS. Windows ... I will never understand. They try to take the same horrible OS, add an insane number of features, the system requirements goes through the roof, and then the package it and ship and charge people a ton of money for it. The logic for coding new versions of Windows seems to be to take their unnecessarily complicated OS and make even more complicated. Sometimes they do simplify things here or there, but mostly it's just a process of making it bigger and bigger.If you were to ask the question, "What is the best OS for personal computers, Mac or Windows?" the answer is: Neither.
Mahone Posted March 18, 2010 Report Posted March 18, 2010 Yeah, I'm one of those crazy IT professionals. Windows and Mac OS were both always bloated and frustratingly inefficient operating systems. They both still are for the most part, but Apple did something intelligent when they put together Mac OS 10. They took the kernel from a truly efficient OS (Free BSD, which is a version of Linux) and built their new OS on that kernel. All versions of Mac OS since have been built on a Linux kernel. The GUI intensive OS they built on top of that kernel isn't designed how I would have done it, but at least they started with a strong foundation. I'm not a huge fan of Mac OS. Windows ... I will never understand. They try to take the same horrible OS, add an insane number of features, the system requirements goes through the roof, and then the package it and ship and charge people a ton of money for it. The logic for coding new versions of Windows seems to be to take their unnecessarily complicated OS and make even more complicated. Sometimes they do simplify things here or there, but mostly it's just a process of making it bigger and bigger.If you were to ask the question, "What is the best OS for personal computers, Mac or Windows?" the answer is: Neither.I agree with everything you said, except what you said about Free BSD being a version of linux. It isn't.
Faded Posted March 18, 2010 Report Posted March 18, 2010 (edited) I agree with everything you said, except what you said about Free BSD being a version of linux. It isn't. LOL, call it an over-simplification that allows me to not have to explain a long story. Yeah I know, technically Free BSD isn't Linux, but it is a free open-source Unix variant. Many people tend to lump all open-source free Unix variants under the name Linux, though the creation of Free BSD had no link to Linus Torvalds and Free BSD developed independent of what would properly be known as Linux.FreeBSD - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia covers the essentials. Edited March 18, 2010 by Faded
Mahone Posted March 18, 2010 Report Posted March 18, 2010 LOL, call it an over-simplification that allows me to not have to explain a long story. Yeah I know, technically Free BSD isn't Linux, but it is a free open-source Unix variant. Many people tend to lump all open-source free Unix variants under the name Linux, though the creation of Free BSD had no link to Linus Torvalds and Free BSD developed independent of what would properly be known as Linux.Had to point it out, because you would sorely offend a lot of Free BSD users (or any flavour of BSD) if they came across it (OS debates are as bad as debates regarding religion and politics )
Mahone Posted March 18, 2010 Report Posted March 18, 2010 * Windows comes with five of its ports open; Mac OS X comes with all of them shut and locked. (Ports are back-door channels to the Internet: one for instant-messaging, one for Windows XP’s remote-control feature, and so on.) These ports are precisely what permitted viruses like Blaster to infiltrate millions of PC’s. Microsoft says that it won’t have an opportunity to close these ports until the next version of Windows, which is a couple of years away.* When a program tries to install itself in Mac OS X or Linux, a dialog box interrupts your work and asks you permission for that installation -- in fact, requires your account password. Windows XP goes ahead and installs it, potentially without your awareness.It's worth pointing out that these no longer apply.
Moksha Posted March 18, 2010 Report Posted March 18, 2010 The two cheapest Macitosh computers available at their website: 21.5-inch: 3.06GHz3.06GHz Intel Core 2 Duo1920 x 1080 resolution4GB memory500GB hard drive18x double-layer SuperDriveNVIDIA GeForce 9400M graphics----------------------------$1,199.00 (Fully loaded with all available upgrades, $2,721.90) Wait a minute, do you mean that the guts of a Mac are the same as a lesser PC. What a premium price for an OS they borrowed from FreeBSD.
Snow Posted March 19, 2010 Report Posted March 19, 2010 Not true. Try any flavour of bsd as an example.Okay - you got me. Whereas Linux enjoys a market share of eight tenths of one percent, freebsd comes in at a mighty one one hundredth of one percent... hardly worth mentioning.In fact, the only OS you can't (by design) have on a PC that you can with a mac is OSX. I wonder why that is?Seriously? You wonder why that is? It's not that tough. Apple is focused on creating and controlling the entire computing, or music or phone, experience. They control the hardware, they control the OS and seek to extend oversight to applications so that the integrity of the system is maintained. Were it not so, Apple experience might be less like it is and more like a Microsoft experience.Do you know why windows comes with so little software by default? It's because they have a monopoly on the OS market. Therefore the laws of competition are different for them. They are severely limited as to what they can include with their OS as standard, otherwise people complain. Recently in the EU microsoft have been effectively forced to make users of their operating systems choose an alternate browser. Note that there is no "cancel, I don't want to change my browser" button on this dialogue box that comes as part of an "important update". It's not something microsoft want to do.1. A moment ago you were arguing that there were alternatives to Windows but now you claim that Microsoft has exclusive control over the OS market. Which is it going to be?2. You're simply wrong. OS X is enjoys plenty of success in the OS market. There is nothing prohibitive preventing others from entering the market - witness Linux and freebsd.3. You are wrong again. Microsoft is in trouble, not for having a monopoly, but rather for legally abusing it's market dominance. That is based on the exact definition of a virus. It doesn't include malware or trojans.Are you getting after me because I use words correctly - according to their meaning?Studies are also not conclusive by any means. For one study to say that macs are cheaper to operate, there will be another to say windows is cheaper to operate, and yet another to say that linux is. Every heard of the "get the facts" campaign by microsoft, for instance? Here is yet another one: Mac OS X security myth exposed - Techworld.com that contradicts some of your sources. Also, in most of the studies, you'll see them state that it completely depends on what you are intending to do with the equipment, which is what I've been trying to get across.Seriously dude, you're talking about Secunia. Six years ago they claimed that Windows was more secure than you thought and that Mac OS X was worse than you ever imagined.Oh - the horror!Since that perilous alarm was sounded, can you tell me how many PCs were infected - in the wild - and how many Macs? Let me put it another way. A 2001 study showed that viruses cost industry about 17 billion year. Let's allow for growth and inflation and conservatively say now is over 20 billion. Of that, how much is attributed to the worse than you ever imagined OS X?linkAll 20? 10? Zero? Do you know the answer?I'm still curious as to where your "mac users are better educated" statement originated from? Do you have a valid source?Are Mac users smarter?Those who surf the Web using a Mac tend to be better educated and make more money than their PC-using counterparts, according to a report from Nielsen/NetRatings.The study also said Mac users tend to be more Web savvy, with more than half having been online for at least five years. And the Mac faithful are 58 percent more likely than the overall online population to build their own Web page and also slightly more likely to buy goods online, according to the report....Nielsen/NetRatings said that 70.2 percent of Mac users online have a college degree, compared with 54.2 percent of all Web surfers. Are Mac users smarter? - CNET News
Snow Posted March 19, 2010 Report Posted March 19, 2010 That's very unfair. You have selected the models that suit your argument.Actually I didn't. I opened up Dell desktop section of their website and there it was.Alright, so one built into the monitor as an example: Dell Studio One 19 All In One Desktop | DellWonder where they got that idea?http://www.synthtopia.com/news/05_05/images/Apple_iMac_g5.jpghttp://cedmagic.com/history/imac-2002.jpgAs usual, Apple innovates and PCs copy - poorly.Also, google "ultra small form factor PC". There are tonnes of PCs like the mac mini you provided a link to.http://www.cyberindian.net/wp-content/images09/dell-inspiron-zino-desktop-back.jpgHow creative - I wonder where they got that? That's the best bit about having a PC. There is so much variety, apple just can't compete in this area.So here's the funny thing about how Apple can't compete. On October 6, 1997, in response to the question of what he'd do if he was in charge of Apple Computer, Dell founder and then CEO Michael Dell stood before a crowd of several thousand IT executives and answered flippantly, "What would I do? I'd shut it down and give the money back to the shareholders."A little more than a month later, on November 10, 1997, new Apple iCEO Steve Jobs responded, speaking in front of an image of Michael Dell's bulls-eye covered face, "We're coming after you, you're in our sights."Today, Apple is the 3rd most valuable company in the US, worth over two hundred billion with Microsoft dead in their sights. It took eight years to catch Dell. Today Apple is worth 7 to 8 times what Dell is. Apple could buy, literally buy, Dell with cash on hand and have a bunch left over to for other major acquisitions. They could buy Sony with cash.Care to comment again on how Apple can't compete?
Faded Posted March 19, 2010 Report Posted March 19, 2010 Are Mac users smarter?Those who surf the Web using a Mac tend to be better educated and make more money than their PC-using counterparts, according to a report from Nielsen/NetRatings.The study also said Mac users tend to be more Web savvy, with more than half having been online for at least five years. And the Mac faithful are 58 percent more likely than the overall online population to build their own Web page and also slightly more likely to buy goods online, according to the report....Nielsen/NetRatings said that 70.2 percent of Mac users online have a college degree, compared with 54.2 percent of all Web surfers. The average owner of a Mercedes Benz is more educated than the average owner of a Toyota Corolla. This fact has more to do with disposable income than Mercedes being a better car manufacturer than Toyota. A person making a comfortable $200,000 per year, on average has a lot more education than somebody making $20,000 per year.Any person shopping for a computer who couldn't care less about paying $2000 vs $300 probably has more disposable income than average. So to say that they are more educated is stating the obvious.
Snow Posted March 19, 2010 Report Posted March 19, 2010 The average owner of a Mercedes Benz is more educated than the average owner of a Toyota Corolla. This fact has more to do with disposable income than Mercedes being a better car manufacturer than Toyota. A person making a comfortable $200,000 per year, on average has a lot more education than somebody making $20,000 per year.Any person shopping for a computer who couldn't care less about paying $2000 vs $300 probably has more disposable income than average. So to say that they are more educated is stating the obvious.What a perfectly apt comparisonToyota chief: Growth outpaced qualitySounds like the PC market - volume volume volume.Anyone who would think that a Corolla compares to a Mercedes is exactly the kind of person Wintel box assemblers cater to.
annamaureen Posted March 19, 2010 Report Posted March 19, 2010 Stumbled across this today and thought of this thread...
Faded Posted March 19, 2010 Report Posted March 19, 2010 (edited) What a perfectly apt comparisonToyota chief: Growth outpaced qualitySounds like the PC market - volume volume volume.Anyone who would think that a Corolla compares to a Mercedes is exactly the kind of person Wintel box assemblers cater to.I might have said Nissan or Honda or Ford. Toyota Corolla came to mind because I own one.Look I'm 100% of the opinion that Windows sucks, so don't start looking at me as a big supporter of theirs. But I'm saying that it's easy to understand why Mac users are more educated. They fork out $4000 for a personal home computer and don't even bat an eye. For the rest of the world, the very thought of that is insane.It's like a Ferrari. The vast majority of people out there will never even attempt to afford one. Rich people have the luxury of possibly buying a Ferrari. Grade-school teachers and dump truck drivers don't have that option.Therein lies Mac's biggest problem in terms of competition. Inferior though they might be, a PC costs WAY less than a Mac. Edited March 19, 2010 by Faded
bytebear Posted March 19, 2010 Report Posted March 19, 2010 What a perfectly apt comparisonToyota chief: Growth outpaced qualitySounds like the PC market - volume volume volume.Anyone who would think that a Corolla compares to a Mercedes is exactly the kind of person Wintel box assemblers cater to.Hype is a wonderful thing. You would think the iPhone is the most popular device ever, and yet, Nokia sells more phones in a day than Apple does in a month.in 1998 when Michael Dell made those comments, Apple was dead in the water, and in fact, it it weren't for the iPod they would have gone under. It wasn't and isn't their computer line that is making them money. The simple fact is, if you compare processor to processor, memory to memory, hard drive to hard drive, Apple is significantly more expensive, even when you compare to a high quality product like HP. I challenge you to find an example where I am wrong.
bytebear Posted March 19, 2010 Report Posted March 19, 2010 I might have said Nissan or Honda or Ford. Toyota Corolla came to mind because I own one.Look I'm 100% of the opinion that Windows sucks, so don't start looking at me as a big supporter of theirs. But I'm saying that it's easy to understand why Mac users are more educated. They fork out $4000 for a personal home computer and don't even bat an eye. For the rest of the world, the very thought of that is insane.It's like a Ferrari. The vast majority of people out there will never even attempt to afford one. Rich people have the luxury of possibly buying a Ferrari. Grade-school teachers and dump truck drivers don't have that option.Therein lies Mac's biggest problem in terms of competition. Inferior though they might be, a PC costs WAY less than a Mac.The problem is, if you found out that your Ferrari had the same engine as a Hyundai, but just had nice leather seats and a cool dashboard, would you feel a little ripped off? And that's exactly what Apple users are like. It's the smug factor. They want to feel superior to everyone else. They want to feel special by fitting in a better educated demographic. But there is a difference between being educated and being smart.
Snow Posted March 19, 2010 Report Posted March 19, 2010 Stumbled across this today and thought of this thread...If I had a position for an accountant or actuary, I'd hire the guy in the suit. If I had an opening for a computer guru, I take the other one.
Snow Posted March 19, 2010 Report Posted March 19, 2010 The problem is, if you found out that your Ferrari had the same engine as a Hyundai, but just had nice leather seats and a cool dashboard, would you feel a little ripped off? And that's exactly what Apple users are like. It's the smug factor. They want to feel superior to everyone else. They want to feel special by fitting in a better educated demographic. But there is a difference between being educated and being smart.Gee Dr. Spock, interesting diagnosis - but it sounds like you just made it up. It's not that Mac users as a population WANT to feel special by being better educated. They have in fact gone to school and become better educated, then, being better educated, they, compared to those less educated, choose MACs. That - you know - a fact. What you said is, like, you know - crying in your beer.
Snow Posted March 19, 2010 Report Posted March 19, 2010 Therein lies Mac's biggest problem in terms of competition. Inferior though they might be, a PC costs WAY less than a Mac.Obviously you do not follow the tech sector.Dell's Profit Margin is 2.71%HP's Profit Margin is 6.8%Apples Profit Margin is over 20%In the most recent quarter Apple's Mac sales have jumped 43% year over year while the rest of the industry - PCs - have languished.Apple's retail stores are the most profitable retail stores on the entire planet. Their revenue per square foot dwarfs all others including high-end jeweler Tiffany's.You missed it but it bears repeating:On October 6, 1997, in response to the question of what he'd do if he was in charge of Apple Computer, Dell founder and then CEO Michael Dell stood before a crowd of several thousand IT executives and answered flippantly, "What would I do? I'd shut it down and give the money back to the shareholders."A little more than a month later, on November 10, 1997, new Apple iCEO Steve Jobs responded, speaking in front of an image of Michael Dell's bulls-eye covered face, "We're coming after you, you're in our sights."Today, Apple is the 3rd most valuable company in the US, worth over two hundred billion with Microsoft dead in their sights. It took eight years to catch Dell. Today Apple is worth 7 to 8 times what Dell is. Apple could buy, literally buy, Dell with cash on hand and have a bunch left over to for other major acquisitions. They could buy Sony with cash.So, Faded, what's "Mac's biggest problem in terms of competition?"
bytor2112 Posted March 19, 2010 Report Posted March 19, 2010 Today, Apple is the 3rd most valuable company in the US, worth over two hundred billion with Microsoft dead in their sights.I think they are more like the 8th most valuable U.S. company. That being said, their stock performed very well last year....something like 135% return....very nice. I would definitely own Apple over Dell....speaking of stocks anyway.I have always wanted an Apple computer....am I smart or well educated or both or neither? Maybe I just like the cool colors.......
Snow Posted March 19, 2010 Report Posted March 19, 2010 I think they are more like the 8th most valuable U.S. company. That being said, their stock performed very well last year....something like 135% return....very nice. I would definitely own Apple over Dell....speaking of stocks anyway.As of last Friday:Wal-Mart has dropped to fourth most valuable U.S. company as they were passed by new #3 Apple Inc. in morning NASDAQ trading.Wal-Mart (WMT) currently has a market value of US$205.31 billion.Apple (AAPL), currently up $1.21, or 0.54%, per share to $226.71, now has a market value of $205.58 billion.#1 on the list is Exxon Mobil (XOM) at $315.10B, followed by Microsoft (MSFT) at $256.36B. #5 is Berkshire Hathaway (BRKA) at $202.87B.Where in the mix Apple falls today depend on the daily stock price of Apple, Walmart and Berkshire.I have always wanted an Apple computer....am I smart or well educated or both or neither? Maybe I just like the cool colors.......If by colors you mean black, white of titanium... then yes, they're cool.
Snow Posted March 19, 2010 Report Posted March 19, 2010 Can lightening strike twice? How about 5 times.Apple created or revolutized:Personal ComputersMP3 PlayersThe Music IndustrySmart Phonesand coming soon: the iPad.Apple - iPad - See the web, email, and photos like never before.and then... probably TV.Something done by no other company in history as far as I know.
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