D&C 132:26-27 Stumped

[Hemidakota]

Are you saying that being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise and having one's calling and election made sure, are one and the same thing?

No...it is not the same. The Holy Ghost presents the individual before GOD and HIS Son in determining if the election made sure is warrant. It is then, both of them will appear before this individual and make it known as it was done in the Kirtland Temple for Joseph and brother Clayton.

Edited April 29, 2010 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

Don't remember anyone saying that.

The scriptures are clear: we are forgiven when we have faith in Christ, confess our sins and forsake them.

We are assigned a kingdom of glory based on our works, or the works we would have done had we been given the opportunity (desires of the heart, all that good stuff).

Just because someone repents does not mean they go to the Celestial Kingdom.

Everyone will be forgiven eventually (except Perdition).

Not everyone will go to the Celestial Kingdom eventually.

"But learn that he who doeth the works of righteousness shall receive his reward, even peace in this world, and eternal life in the world to come." (D&C 59:23)

Reread the New Testament where not only Paul but James spoke about this with those Jews who converted to the gospel.

My friend, it is fact that faith without work is dead; work without faith is dead....remembers that quote?

Edited April 29, 2010 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

I can't square that notion with the following from Joseph Smith:

The Holy Spirit of Promise seems to be something different than having one's calling and election made sure.

You are correct.

[Hemidakota]

I have to admit... I have always thought of the sealing of husband and wife and having your calling and election made sure to be different. (While I accept that I can be wrong) my belief was centered around the comments of calling and election made sure, AKA, second annointing/seeing Jesus during our mortal lifetime in the flesh. There are scriptures declaring those to have their calling and elections made sure being done , and it was NOT during their marraiges. That is why I have always had the distinction in my mind.

It will only open the door for that moment [preparation] but it is up to them after this blessing to seek out the face of GOD both Peter and Joseph spoke about. When a person has done all there is with receiving the fullness of the priesthood, proven himself(herself) before the Godhead, his/her last task or objective is to seek the face of GOD (election made sure). It still requires the Holy Ghost to bring this individual before both the FATHER and the Son to to make it happen. No man will enter the highest level in the Celestial Kingdom unless this is done.

The sealing of such marriage is remain enforce for eternality and will inherit what is set aside for them. Holy Spirit of Promise as Joseph received it:

7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

The key to this, what is bolded. How do we know? It follows the same pattern given in the Kirtland Temple. Edited April 29, 2010 by Hemidakota

[Just_A_Guy]

If they received all the ordinances of salvation contained in the New and Everlasting Covenant, were true and faithful to those covenants and were sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, then yes.

If you take a few minutes to read the scripture references in the two "Guide to the Scriptures" links I posted for "Holy Spirit of Promise" and "Calling and Election", especially the references to D&C 88 and 84, I think you will see the correlation that I am seeing.

That is the only way the passages in question in D&C 132 make sense.

Regards,

Vanhin

Thanks for the explanation. I did look at your references (as well as the D&C Institute Study Manual), but I don't see anything positively saying that the two are one and the same.

I apologize if I seem to be splitting hairs. The way it was explained to me was that the Holy Spirit of Promise "seals" the ordinance and promises us that, if we continue faithfully, we will receive our exaltations; whereas, when our calling and election is made sure, the promise becomes more or less unconditional and we are given that promise by the Son Himself. I guess the question is, does "sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise" refer to the conditional assurance by the Holy Ghost, or the unconditional assurance by God Himself?

You mention D&C 131:5; but I interpret that as follows:

The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life [OR: his calling and election is made sure], by revelation and the spirit of prophecy [which Revelation 19:10 tells us is the testimony of Jesus; which jibes with Smith's teaching that we receive the assurance from the Son Himself], through the power of the Holy Priesthood [in other words, in a priesthood ordinance].

As has been obliquely noted already, there is a priesthood ordinance that is affiliated with having our calling and elections made sure, and it is not the one we call a "sealing".

EDIT: I should note that my understanding here is shaped a lot by the way I read McConkie's descriptions of "Holy Spirit of Promise" and "Calling and Election Made Sure", as they appear in Mormon Doctrine. I'm aware that a lot of folks disagree with McConkie on a variety of issues, but I've not yet seen any convincing arguments as to why he may be incorrect in this case.

Edited April 29, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[rameumptom]

Neither did I state, to follow anyone blindly. I am one those would ask the Godhead in a topic, when I feel something is not right. You have seen that many times in this forum. You could be a Prophet, an Apostle, and a Bishop, if it feels not correct, I would ask GOD for the correct answer. GOD is not respector of any person in receiving the lesser word to the greater word.

There is one more point to this, though. A person also must be ready/prepared to receive the answer. And to the level they are ready, determines the level of answer they will receive.

When the revelation on the priesthood occurred, all the apostles were there except Mark Peterson. Some believe that the revelation could not come with him there, as he was a very strong proponent of previous thinking on the priesthood ban (wouldn't end until the Millennium, etc). It is on the same level as the Three Witnesses of the Book of Mormon. The revelation would not come until Martin Harris left the group, and later prepared himself to receive the same vision.

[HiJolly]

They are different. Being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise is not the same as being sealed to your spouse.

(snip)

Regards,

Vanhin

Um... I agree that being sealed in marriage is not the same as being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, but I would like to say that the sealing of the Holy Spirit of Promise specifically concerning the marriage ordinance in the temple is an spiritual fulfillment of the outer ordinance, that alone is binding in the eternities. Going through the physical ordinance in the temple is not sufficient.

There was a quote previously posted, earlier in this thread to that effect, and it is straight on correct. It was Hemidakota, post #16 in this thread (page 2, I think).

HiJolly

Edited April 29, 2010 by HiJolly

[HiJolly]

This Scripture is frustrating because I still can't quite grasp what it means... and I know there is a correct meaning and I know I will find it, just that long journey getting there is always frustrating.

I think it makes sense when we know what Joseph was referring to, when we know what Joseph was teaching at the time. I suggest that to start the research, a thorough reading of Andy Ehat's 1982 Master's Thesis at BYU entitled "JOSEPH SMITH'S INTRODUCTION OF TEMPLE ORDINANCES AND THE 1844 MORMON SUCCESSION QUESTION". See Digital Collections » Harold B. Lee Library link to "Theses & Dissertations".

It has a lot of non-related stuff, but also some very pertinent info mixed in.

This has already been referred to:

"that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them" see also v. 26 and 27

The meaning of "innocent blood" is specific to Joseph's redefinition. You need to know what that redefinition is. It is found in the temple in the Second Anointing (or was -- the ordinance is a bit different now and is referred to as "special temple blessings" these days, and is NOT in the D&C.

HiJolly

[Just_A_Guy]

HiJolly, I can't find the Ehat thesis there. Do you have a direct link?

[marts1]

The part that has baffled me about this scripture and still does is how can a person sin to such a degree after living well enough to have this blessing?

[HiJolly]

Argh. I can't find it now either, except as a physical book. IM me w/ your email addy & I'll email it to you.

HiJolly

[Just_A_Guy]

Argh. I can't find it now either, except as a physical book. IM me w/ your email addy & I'll email it to you.

HiJolly

Will do; thanks.

[HiJolly]

Will do; thanks.

The attachment is 20 MB. 1st try failed, then I sent a test w/o the attachment. Let me know if you got it.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Just_A_Guy,

Here's the result from my last send attempt:

This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.

Delivery to the following recipients failed.

Final-Recipient:

Action: failed

Status: 5.2.2

Diagnostic-Code: smtp;552 5.2.2 This message is larger than the current system limit or the recipient's mailbox is full. Create a shorter message body or remove attachments and try sending it again.

The problem is with hotmail. So go to gmail.com and get an email there, and then I can send to you. And the email in Hotmail was wrong, it's not 20 MB, it's only 12 MB. Either way, hotmail can't handle it.

HiJolly

Edited May 6, 2010 by HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Just_A_Guy:

Looks like this AM's attempt worked. Enjoy!

HiJolly

[Just_A_Guy]

Received; many thanks!

[Hemidakota]

There is one more point to this, though. A person also must be ready/prepared to receive the answer. And to the level they are ready, determines the level of answer they will receive.

Exactly...for some it is given the lesser word. For other, it is given a greater word. What needs to be done is a self-assessment of which group we fit in.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Hemidakota