Human Sacrifice - Cats and Dogs Living Together...

[Guest The_Doctor]

I have to say the title made me smile. I mean, who doesn't like "Ghostbusters"?

[Guest The_Doctor]

Media plays a major role in this...

I personally feel what's in the media is more a representation of what society will accept. If it isn't acceptable it'll get censored or the show will be canned.

[Snow]

God doesn't conspire. He allows things to happen. The Book of Mormon is very clear that whenever the Nephites were wicked, they would be humbled by Lamanite invasion. I do not think that God conspired with the Lamanites to cause such destruction. What happened is God withdrew his spiritual protection from the Nephites, allowing the Lamanites to no longer fear them, to open the door to their ancient anger, and to invade.

So God allowed Hitler and Japan to kill Jews and other Europeans to humble them but stopped allowing it and instead allowed the US and Russia to defeat them - and then went on to allow the USA to prosper and promote freedom but at the same time allowed the USSR (who he previously allowed to kill the Germans he first allowed to kill Jews) murder their own people under Stalin in numbers that made his previous allowance of of the Halocaust pale by comparison?

Followup question: Why did God allow Japan to kills Americans (Pearl Harbor) but then later change directions and stop allowing it by the end of the war?

[rameumptom]

Snow, you are attempting to take generalized statements and have us explain them on every specific instance. Still, let me explain it in easy terms for all to see:

Evil occurred in Europe. Hitler was allowed to rise to power. Chamberlain and others chose to play nice with the devil. The devil chose to take advantage of their generosity and lack of strength. It required lots of humbling in the world, and to replace one belief/attitude of pacifying evil men, with a Churchill-type standing up against evil, to destroy Hitler.

As it is, nature hates a vacuum. And so when Hitler's evil empire collapsed, Satan allowed the next contestant to step up: communism. There always have been good and evil nations, and sometimes they reverse roles. We see that with the Nephites and Lamanites, where the Lamanites repented and became very faithful, while the Nephites coddled the Gadianton Robbers.

The Book of Mormon explains what we see in our world today. There are good nations, bad nations, and some who try to sit on the fence. Sometimes there are only bad nations, or only good nations. There never is a permanent stasis on this, as new characters enter the picture and frequently change the dynamics in each nation.

America has helped nations become free, and we've also had periods where we've supported despots. Our wars have often come upon us because someone, somewhere was evil (and it could be argued that occasionally it was Americans). Evil is allowed in the world to bring to pass God's primary goal: giving us agency to choose between life and death. This means he must allow at least some of the horrors, in order to provide us all with agency and eventually a judgment for the choices we make.

God took a terrible evil in Hitler, and used it to open doors to democracy and the gospel in places it had not been before. Millions died in the wars. But millions were also freed from despots and tyranny. The gospel could not have expanded in the world without first truly freeing Japan, Germany, Korea, and many other nations.

We have temples in Russia, East Germany, and soon in the Ukraine, because a long Cold War was fought, and won, by the United States and its allies. Like the converted Lamanites, those members in former Soviet states tend to be more obedient and spiritual than the life-long members in Utah.

Once again, it is an issue of agency. God allows agency. But he also hears and answers the prayers of the humble. He rescues the meek and obedient.

Now, let me turn the tables on you. You continually question and acerbically push, even when people give decent answers. Perhaps you wouldn't mind giving in detail why you are so opposed to God allowing agency, even if it means terrors and horrors? Or are you a Deist, who thinks God just wound up the clock, and now is letting things wind down on their own? (Of course, in this God is "allowing" things to occur, so we're back to your original issue).

Why do YOU think God allows tragedy, war, and evil to occur? Or do you think God is powerless to stop it? And if he's powerless, then why should we worship him, as he is potentially powerless to save us, as well?

[Snow]

Now, let me turn the tables on you. You continually question and acerbically push, even when people give decent answers. Perhaps you wouldn't mind giving in detail why you are so opposed to God allowing agency, even if it means terrors and horrors? Or are you a Deist, who thinks God just wound up the clock, and now is letting things wind down on their own? (Of course, in this God is "allowing" things to occur, so we're back to your original issue).

I don't think it is a "decent" answer. I think it is a horrible answer.

First - the amount of proof of your hypothesis is exactly equal to the amount of proof that Bette Midler wrote the Declaration of Independence, the amount being zero. What you claim doesn't meet a legal standard, it doesn't meet a scientific standard, it doesn't meet a rational status. It's just a ideological and dogmatic belief - an equally compelling case can be made that Hitler was a space alien.

Second - You made wild allegations - that Chamberlain was in cahoots with Satan. One might be tempted to think that you meant it allegorically but a reading of your post shows that you are talking about the actual devil.

Third - you attribute to Satan the characteristics of God. You have Satan "allowing" evil and communism to take over as if the devil controlled the universe and could choose it allow it to proceed or not.

Forth - you attribute conscious choice to nature - that it hates a vacuum, in this case political power, and chooses to fill a vacuum in political power with alternative political power.

Fifth - I have no issue with God allowing free agency. As we speak, at this very moment He is allowing murder, rape, genocide, starvation, and all manner of unspeakable evil, despite the fervent prayer of those that seek His intervention. It is your characterization of God capriciously and randomly getting involved that I take issue with. You claim he rescues the meek and the helpless when it is abundantly clear that he does not. - Between the time I write this post and the time you read this post and reply, how many people will be murdered, raped, abuses, stolen from, go hungry, etc, despite asking for mercy?

Sixth - I further take issue of your position that God uses evil for His own purpose, benefitting from it.

Why do YOU think God allows tragedy, war, and evil to occur?

Because he stays out of most all human affairs.

Or do you think God is powerless to stop it? And if he's powerless, then why should we worship him, as he is potentially powerless to save us, as well?

I don't think He is powerless. I have faith that He has all power that is necessary to our salvation.

[rameumptom]

Snow,

Just because you think it is a horrible answer, doesn't make it so. You didn't ask for a scientific answer. There isn't one. Science doesn't answer the question of evil. Only religion and philosophy can potentially do that. This is an LDS list, and so turning to scripture for answer is proper.

I used allegory for Chamberlain and Satan. They weren't allegations. Satan was metaphor for Hitler. I know of few people who do not consider Hitler evil and demonic. Chamberlain made a deal with Hitler, in essence making a deal with the devil. So, no, they were NOT "wild accusations." Your frequent impugning of others by making such general accusations is not appropriate for someone who deems himself Christian.

You answered my question by stating that God "stays out of most all human affairs." Proof? Do you have any proof, scientific OR religious OR philosophical? What about ancient and modern prophets telling us we can receive frequent personal revelation? Is that not God's effort to be involved in the process on a frequent basis? Or are you going to tell me that prophetic teachings do not count as evidence? If you do, I suggest you go find another sand box to play in, as this is an LDS sandbox, where most here DO believe in the doctrinal statements made by prophets and apostles.

If you think God is not powerless, but stays out of almost all human affairs, then is he not guilty of allowing evil? Is not his choice to remain aloof or apart not equivalent to a choice to allow evil things to occur? Your brief answers are opinions only, and do not answer the issue of evil in the world. How about giving something useful to work with?

[Moksha]

So God allowed Hitler and Japan to kill Jews and other Europeans to humble them but stopped allowing it and instead allowed the US and Russia to defeat them - and then went on to allow the USA to prosper and promote freedom but at the same time allowed the USSR (who he previously allowed to kill the Germans he first allowed to kill Jews) murder their own people under Stalin in numbers that made his previous allowance of of the Holocaust pale by comparison?

Followup question: Why did God allow Japan to kills Americans (Pearl Harbor) but then later change directions and stop allowing it by the end of the war?

Snow, are you suggesting that God allows men to perpetrate their own misdeeds? Sort of a free will type of thing, eh. Are you further suggesting that God is good and devoid of a mysterious dark side that allows or encourages men to commit evil deeds?

[Snow]

Snow, are you suggesting that God allows men to perpetrate their own misdeeds? Sort of a free will type of thing, eh. Are you further suggesting that God is good and devoid of a mysterious dark side that allows or encourages men to commit evil deeds?

Yes. I am saying that from the observable phenomenon, and a rational perspective, it appears that God, for the most part, stays out of our affairs and let's man work out his own salvation without active manipulation.

[Snow]

Your frequent impugning of others by making such general accusations is not appropriate for someone who deems himself Christian.

If you are going to engage in a particular behavior (impugning) then you may want to avoid accusing others of it.

You answered my question by stating that God "stays out of most all human affairs." Proof? Do you have any proof, scientific OR religious OR philosophical?

Sheeze, it like no one ever reads and remembers what the convention is. He who makes the claim, that GOD intervenes, bears the burden. That God, should God exist, stays out of it is the null hypothesis.

What about ancient and modern prophets telling us we can receive frequent personal revelation? Is that not God's effort to be involved in the process on a frequent basis?

Unreliable and thus unsuitable to be tossed out as evidence of anything. People believe all sorts of contradictory and irrational things on account of personal revelation. Not saying it doesn't happen but it is pointless to hold it out as an example of anything.

Or are you going to tell me that prophetic teachings do not count as evidence?

That's dogma. It's pointless to debate dogma as there is no proof for it and proof against it is simple spun by dogmatist to be in favor of it.

If you do, I suggest you go find another sand box to play in, as this is an LDS sandbox, where most here DO believe in the doctrinal statements made by prophets and apostles.

A nebulous, non-specific declaration is one thing. To then say that God intervened it this particular battle or manipulated the outcome of that particular war is another... and pointless as there is zero evidence. One might as well just bear their testimony. People believe what they believe regardless of it's relationship to truth.

If you think God is not powerless, but stays out of almost all human affairs, then is he not guilty of allowing evil? Is not his choice to remain aloof or apart not equivalent to a choice to allow evil things to occur? Your brief answers are opinions only, and do not answer the issue of evil in the world. How about giving something useful to work with?

Yes - it is obvious to me that is allows everything or most everything, good, evil, war, famine, happiness, employment, unemployment, freedom, slavery - all of it. To get specific and say that God allowed that person to be unemployed, despite their requests to become employed, but caused me, at my request, to become employed is.... wait for it... pointless, except as a tool to convince yourself of your own dogma. Gots to do what we can to eliminate the cognitive dissonance.

Edited April 30, 2010 by Snow

[Intrigued]

It's a bit like the 'end times' cries that we've heard pretty much since the beginning of recorded history.

[rameumptom]

Well, since any discussion here is "dogma" in Snow's opinion (except his own, of course), I'm going to drop out, as no discussion can really be done when one person shuts down everything. If on an LDS list, we cannot discuss the writings of prophets, apostles, and scholars, because it is "dogma" then we may as well just quit discussing anything at all.

The commandments mean nothing, because they are all dogma. God really doesn't care one way or another what we do, because he is busy somewhere else. He probably really didn't reveal anything to the prophets, they just came up with "dogma" to make themselves feel better. There is no absolute truths, only relativism. Only science exists. Religion and philosophy offer nothing to mankind, except "dogma."

Personally, Snow, I feel very sorry for you. Science does not have all the answers. And I truly believe that God is very active in the world today. That is what our prophets and apostles have taught, and that is what I've experienced in my own life. I hope you can someday find that these are not "dogma" but Pearls of Great Price.

[marts1]

Snow is not all that bad Ram, after all, if nothing else, he does have a way of vamping up a discussion. lol

[Snow]

Well, since any discussion here is "dogma" in Snow's opinion (except his own, of course),

Tsk, tsk, tsk. I am using a commonly understood meaning of the word: a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof.

Contrary to your protestations, my opinions, when not based on evidence are dogma just like anyone else. I just try to avoid holding out my dogma as anything other than what it is: an opinion with no evidence. And, contrary to your protestations, I don't care that people have dogmatic beliefs - it's irrational dogmatic that contradicts evidence, rationality, and attributes we normally attribute to God (like goodness and justice) that I object to. In other words, a dogmatic belief that God engages in unjust behavior contradicts the dogma that God is just.

I'm going to drop out, as no discussion can really be done when one person shuts down everything. If on an LDS list, we cannot discuss the writings of prophets, apostles, and scholars, because it is "dogma" then we may as well just quit discussing anything at all.

Come now rame, don't pout. You might be able to come up with a worthwhile contribution if you are thoughtful enough.

The commandments mean nothing, because they are all dogma. God really doesn't care one way or another what we do, because he is busy somewhere else. He probably really didn't reveal anything to the prophets, they just came up with "dogma" to make themselves feel better. There is no absolute truths, only relativism. Only science exists. Religion and philosophy offer nothing to mankind, except "dogma."

Pouting and sarcasm - read what you posted and see if that's the attitude really wanted to convey.

Personally, Snow, I feel very sorry for you. Science does not have all the answers. And I truly believe that God is very active in the world today. That is what our prophets and apostles have taught, and that is what I've experienced in my own life. I hope you can someday find that these are not "dogma" but Pearls of Great Price.

Really now rame, that's just limp. Feel sorry for me - why? Do you think that you are any more "saved" than I am? Is your faith in God any stronger than mine? Are you happier or more accomplished or more at peace or better looking or of greater service to mankind than I am. Seriously, drop the pouting, rame, you don't wear it well.