Please Help

[SamuelWattles]

In regard to dizzysmiles' questions, Moksha, I assumpted she wanted to know what "LDS authors" had to say on those subjects. I certainly agree wholeheartedly with her opening statement.

Sam

[volgadon]

There were many events that "encouraged" Jews to "gather" and return to their home land from Europe for the past 150 years or so. It appears that those that gathered to Jerusalem prior to WWII were not involved in the holocaust of WWII.

One of the three basic pillars of covenantal blessing for obedience is protection from one’s enemies and a primary malediction of covenantal disobedience is loss of protection from one’s enemies. If you have a more reasonable explanation for the Jews lost in the holocaust – I would be most interested.

The Traveler

just to make sure that I wasn't missing anything I reread the verses to do with the gathering of Israel. It wasn't a covenantal obligation of the children of Israel to gather to Israel. All the promises are from God, he will do it. I don't see anywhere a curse affixed to that or any conditions involved.

Why would God destroy the very centres most involved and active in emigrating to Israel? Why punish them and not those who had emigrated to North or South America?

Edited May 15, 2010 by volgadon

[volgadon]

I'm in no hurry. I am interested in your view. BTW - any numbers to compare before and after?

The Traveler

What do you mean by numbers, those who had emigrated to Israel and perished in the Holocaust? There probably are numbers, I don't have them, but I'm sure Yad Vashem would. It is not just those who had emigrated that perished, but those who were planning on doing so, and those who were encouraging others.

Here are some of my thoughts on the Holocaust. As I have said, all of my father's side that had remained in Europe perished.

There are many reasons that it occured.

To some extent it is because they rejected Christ, and turned him over to be scourged and killed. Christ himself says it, as does Nephi in 1 Nephi 19:13-14 and 2 Nephi 25:12-16.

Just as covenant keeping blessing future generations, covenant breaking hurts them. This was covenant breaking of the highest degree and could not got without repurcussions.

This does not mean though that God sent the Nazis or any others to punish the Jews or that they were justified in doing so. To paraphrase, offences must come but woe unto them by whom they come. They will pay and pay dearly for their black deeds.

I used to struggle a lot with this issue and then I read those verses of Nephi's. They were a great comfort because they gave not only a reason, but also promise blessings. God can be angry with his children, he can let them be hurt for a time, but he has not forgotten them.

God has given agency to all men. Many will abuse it, giving Satan an easy foothold.

He has a grudge going back for years against the Lord's people, against any people.

Alma 14 goes a long way to explaining why things like the Holocaust could happen to the innocent.

God always uses something bad to further his plans for his children. I mean to say that he will find the good in every situation. As Samson's riddle goes, out of the strong came for the sweetness. He won't let suffering be in vain.

One of the purposes accomplished by the Holocaust was the formation of the state of Israel.

God knew what would happen to the Jews, and prepared them for it. A very beautiful book is Yaafa Eliach's Hasidic Tales of the Holocaust. It shows how people could keep their faith in the goodness of man and God despite the hell that was the kingdom of the night. It also shows many of the miracles the Lord performed.

[Roseslipper]

remember the Jewish people where preordained to do what they did, Some one had to do it for Heavenly Fathers plan to work....

[Moksha]

In regard to dizzysmiles' questions, Moksha, I assumpted she wanted to know what "LDS authors" had to say on those subjects. I certainly agree wholeheartedly with her opening statement.

Sam

Are you talking about the same point I was quoting from or the opening line about how it was going to sound racist?

[Blackmarch]

This post will sound very disturbing or racist and I apologize for it. I have been having a conversation with someone who believes these things. I need HELP with any doctorinal evidence that this person is WRONG. Otherwise, if you feel he is right, show me the evidence that he is.

These are what he thinks:

1. "The holocaust happened because the Jews killed Jesus." - I say that since the begining before Christ came, the Jews have always had trouble. They were slaves, and had been in bondage for YEARS. I also said that I as we are not held accountable for Adam's transgressions, why would their great great and so on grandchildren be held accountable for theirs? ( I know that if there was an action there is a consequence, but this wasn't something like the Jews destroyed the temple, never rebuilt it and therefore their offspring never got to go to the temple) It happened because there is such a thing as EVIL and it exists!

I cannot find any scriptural support for "Jews were killed because they killed jesus".

The prophecies regarding jews and the persecutions upon them generally deal with their tendency to ignore god and go after worldly and sinful things.

Also God allows consequences to happen, it's quite possible to be in a situation in which an individual has no responsibility of.

2. "In the pre-mortal life there were those that shouted for joy, and those that went with satan. However, there was also fence sitters not knowing which to go, therefore they were desendants of cain and are what we know as black people. Therefore they couldn't have the preisthood for years." - I said that is foolish. We all are God's children and he isn't going to Punish us for something we did in the pre-mortal life when we came here for our test. Joseph Smith had a friend who was black who had was given the priesthood back in the day. I am not sure exactly why they had to wait for a while, (but still this isn't the debate here) the debate is that we all have our trials, and maybe they came with a different color of skin because they happen to be stronger to withhold the trials of racisim? Either way doesn't matter what color you are, We are all God's children. If we were all the same, life would be boring. I am sure there were fencesitters,but we don't know who they are, it could have been any of us and that isn't bad thing! The beauty of it is they had a CHOICE, why would God give them a conseqence for deciding what they wanted to do and chose the right?

once an individual has gained a body on earth I can't find any reason for considering fencesitting (or lack thereof) in premortal life to have any bar on what they can attain in this life or the next.

3. " After the millenium a thousand years of peace ( satan will be in bondage, but after he will be released), Satan will once more reign for a thousand years before judgment and then be cast to outerdarkness."

I thought that Christ casts Satan out before the millenium. I don't like the idea of this yo yo - a thousand years of peace, after the destroying of the earth as we know it, then just to have a thousand years back of wickedness?!- Plus if only good people are alive in the milleinum (whether resurected, twinkled or whatever) where will all the bad guys come from? I thought Satan was cast out, the millenuim happens and then judgment.. no in between of satan reigning again. This is his chance, now.

Satan is bound for the millenium only to be loosed for a little while at the end of it to try those who havent yet been tempted by him. Afterwhich he will cast out forever. I can't find anything that indicates that the "little while" will be a thousand years.

Well that is enough for right now, but those are the three that I need help with support from scriptures or so on that A. Jews and the holocaust. B. Fence sitters are of different races. C. satan coming back after the mil.... HElp!

there arent scriptures supporting B, not really any supporting A either.... I'll see what I can find for C.