When The Missionaries Came To My Door

[Aristotle]

<div class='quotemain'>

Every forum topic just seems to be an excuse to snipe at one another. Jesus wept. I am sure he does.

In this particular case, Mrs. A. is misunderstood. I had recommended that she use shorter quotes, and she offered the rather humorous reply of the shortest verse in the Bible. Harmless, and somewhat amusing fun--no sniping--not today.

Thanks, prisonchaplain...glad to see you've got a sense of humor! ;-)

(notice the use of smiley face, again)

[Guest Syble]

The real reason there is depression in the church is because the focus is too much on self and not enough on others.

Of course it would be recommended everyone become bornagain as taught in all the standard works so as to be able to have the strength and pure love of Christ to aid us. Then the journey into becoming perfect would already have taken place and the stress and strain wouldn't never have taken place.

Moroni 7:47-48 & 10:32-33.

We must first learn to lay our burdens at the feet of Christ before we can bear a song away. How can we bear one another burdens if we won't let them go?

[prisonchaplain]

We must first learn to lay our burdens at the feet of Christ before we can bear a song away. How can we bear one another burdens if we won't let them go?

Sometimes the "letting go" is a journey, rather than an instantaneous decision...or perhaps it's both. A few years back, a loved one came to me asking for help. Crack cocaine had taken hold. I got an application to Teen Challenge--a faith-based in-house recovery program. When it came to the question, "How important is to to you that you enter this program," I expected him to check, "Important" Or "Would like to get in within a few weeks." My heart broke when I read the response, "LIFE OR DEATH." I called the director, who said, bring him in--we'll do the paperwork later.

In a sense he let go. But the journey had only begun. Within a few weeks he was born again. A few weeks later he was baptized in the Holy Ghost. TWELVE MONTHS LATER he graduated. He's now a church member, regular attender, full tithe-payer who's been clean for over three years. He let go...and he's still letting go.

Another close friend started out the same way. He entered Teen Challenge about three months after the first, detoxed, got saved, baptized in the Holy Ghost...but at three months he thought he was strong enough and smart enough to end the journey. He figured he done his letting go. Besides, his family needed him. Three years later, he's still struggling with the addiction.

Yes, self-absorption is self-destructive, and can be idolatry. However, perhaps one reason our spiritual brothers and sisters fall prey to the cult of self is that there is not enough support from the church family. Those who are in healthy, supportative families are less likely to wrestle with personal dysfunction than those who feel they must always battle to get a little care.

[Aristotle]

Recovery programs are wonderful, as they teach us to look within ourselves for the answers to our problems. Before we can love others, we must love ourselves. In order to love ourselves, we need to know who we are, and to understand and accept our strengths and weaknesses. We learn to put our trust in a power greater than ourselves by "Letting go, letting God".

- Mrs. A

[Sugarbay]

LOL, Sugar...you know I'm gonna beat you at Raquetball!

Iwill pinch you again! B)

[Ray]

...self-absorption is self-destructive, and can be idolatry. However, perhaps one reason our spiritual brothers and sisters fall prey to the cult of self is that there is not enough support from the church family. Those who are in healthy, supportative families are less likely to wrestle with personal dysfunction than those who feel they must always battle to get a little care.

People who are absorbed in “self” have trouble getting help from “others”???

Why would people who are absorbed in “self” even want any help from “others”???

I believe the people who have the most troubles are the people who are too needy, expecting others to take care of them for them, instead of trying to take care of themselves.

And while there are some things that none of us can do for ourselves, without the help of some others, I think trying to take care of ourselves by ourselves helps to teach us how much we need others.

And then at that point, when we can see how much we need others, it should become easier to acknowledge and show appreciation for those who help us to do the things we know we can’t do for ourselves.

Or in other words, instead of trying to teach people to become needy, I think it’s better to teach people to become self-sufficient, and then at that point people should be able to see for themselves how much we truly need others… while still doing all we can do for ourselves.

[sgallan]

Why would people who are absorbed in “self” even want any help from “others”???

Indeed. But I have learned when I need help I can get it first and foremost from family, and friends I have helped..... mostly in the wrestling community. Asking for that help is natural and usually it is offered before I even ask. Church's, religions, people I work with, community types, and so forth, really aren't the ones who have been any help. Just lip service. I think those folks get kind of overwhelmed.

[Maureen]

<div class='quotemain'>

...self-absorption is self-destructive, and can be idolatry. However, perhaps one reason our spiritual brothers and sisters fall prey to the cult of self is that there is not enough support from the church family. Those who are in healthy, supportative families are less likely to wrestle with personal dysfunction than those who feel they must always battle to get a little care.

People who are absorbed in “self” have trouble getting help from “others”???

Why would people who are absorbed in “self” even want any help from “others”???

I believe the people who have the most troubles are the people who are too needy, expecting others to take care of them for them, instead of trying to take care of themselves.

And while there are some things that none of us can do for ourselves, without the help of some others, I think trying to take care of ourselves by ourselves helps to teach us how much we need others.

And then at that point, when we can see how much we need others, it should become easier to acknowledge and show appreciation for those who help us to do the things we know we can’t do for ourselves.

Or in other words, instead of trying to teach people to become needy, I think it’s better to teach people to become self-sufficient, and then at that point people should be able to see for themselves how much we truly need others… while still doing all we can do for ourselves.

Ray - Your thoughts here ring quite true for a friend of mine, IMO.

The people that are needy or high maintenance, I believe, do not see their choices of receiving help from others as being needy. I believe some see the choice of being non-self reliant as their way of "looking after themselves". To be truely independant might seem unfathomable, therefore they believe one way to seem independant (in a false way of course) would be to choose to "want" someone to take care of them (but they don't see it that way). Clear as mud?

It would be great if certain people could be "taught" to be self-reliant, but many choose an easier way to live - find someone to "need".

M.

[Prend1]

Wow you people are so clueless....what happens to the person who relizes they need help but can't get it. Until you have suffered through depression lets not paint labels okay. I am nothing like you described and it pains me to think that people might look at me that way.

This just feeds into my theory more and more that unless you are happy and living well than the LDS church has no use for you.

[prisonchaplain]

Wow you people are so clueless....what happens to the person who relizes they need help but can't get it. Until you have suffered through depression lets not paint labels okay. I am nothing like you described and it pains me to think that people might look at me that way. This just feeds into my theory more and more that unless you are happy and living well than the LDS church has no use for you.

Quite frankly, I'm shocked. I do not understand the responses I got to the suggesting that the church needs to rally around its own. Maybe I did not communicate clearly. I'll try once again with two scenarios:

1. Church member loses a job, gets sick, is have marital troubles, has children who are wayward, etc. S/he deeply desires prayer, a listening ear, perhaps even a helping hand, but is fearful that if the request is made, the spiritual family members will begin to ask: Is there sin in your life? Have YOU prayed about it? Have you been setting the right example? Are you giving it to God? Maybe your incompetent (said more politely and 'in love' of course). So, smiles and pretend happiness become the order of the day, and Prozac the order of the night.

2. Church member gets a new job, a promotion, is pregnant, just got a bonus, just won a prize, etc. However, s/he is fearful of giving testimony because it might hurt those who lost jobs, got poor work evaluations, can't get pregnant, just lost some money, or just failed in some venture. Besides, if they share the happiness, others might accuse them of pride (or 'spiritual pride').

3. My recommended solution: Jesus said to mourn with those who mourn, and rejoice with those who rejoice. Usually, all wounded people are looking for is some prayer, a listening ear, and a word of encouragement. Rejoicing people are looking for affirmation, for a sense that the spiritual community feels its reputation is blessed when a member is blessed.

I didn't think I was out to lunch on this. Is what I am saying so foreign, so revolutionary?

[Prend1]

I wasn't referring to you at all PC. All your comments made perfect sense. Sorry for the confusion

[Aristotle]

Quite frankly, I'm shocked. I do not understand the responses I got to the suggesting that the church needs to rally around its own. Maybe I did not communicate clearly. I'll try once again with two scenarios:

I didn't think I was out to lunch on this. Is what I am saying so foreign, so revolutionary?

Not at all, prisonchaplain...in fact, your observations are very accurate.

- The Aristotles

[prisonchaplain]

I wasn't referring to you at all PC. All your comments made perfect sense. Sorry for the confusion

A couple hours after posting this I thought, "Prend my think I was referring to her, since I attached it to her post. So, I'm sorry for the confusion. I was responding to the turn of the string as a whole, in response to my suggestions, not to your specific response. In fact, I sensed that you were indeed agreeing with me. I'm not certain the others necessarily disagreed--but it somehow spun off into a tangent against whiners, the emotionally high-maintenance types, and into a pro-American-Rugged-Individualism (which I don't find supported by Scripture, btw--at least not for the church family) stream.

Bottom-line: I think we're on the same page here, Prend1!

[Maureen]

Wow you people are so clueless....what happens to the person who relizes they need help but can't get it. Until you have suffered through depression lets not paint labels okay. I am nothing like you described and it pains me to think that people might look at me that way.

This just feeds into my theory more and more that unless you are happy and living well than the LDS church has no use for you.

My remarks in my previous post was regarding people who need support and comfort and sometimes advice and in turn, possibly due to impatience or lack of self-confidence make easy and rash choices, while ignoring the help they've been given. I'm not saying that people who need help and are truly struggling should just shape up because it's that easy. I'm talking about people who ask for help and are given help through advice and support but make no effort to take that help. In most of life's struggles it takes time and effort to find your way past hardships - that's how you grow and learn and change. But there are people out there who, even though they've lived many years and have learned through mistakes; still forget to use that learned wisdom to make wise choices. It's too hard to go through the motions or work through life's problems - the grass is always greener on the other side (or so it seems at a distance) - so they choose the easy way and decide to live with the supposedly greener grass without actually taking the time to grow and learn and realize that that "distant grass is not always greener". Our own abilities to work and learn through life's hardships is what makes our life full and green.

M.

[Guest Syble]

Wow you people are so clueless....what happens to the person who relizes they need help but can't get it. Until you have suffered through depression lets not paint labels okay. I am nothing like you described and it pains me to think that people might look at me that way.

This just feeds into my theory more and more that unless you are happy and living well than the LDS church has no use for you.

Use for you? You are very much needed in the church if you are needy. Whom else would we serve if not the needy? Can you really serve someone who is all selfl-sufficient? (I happen to be such a person, all self-sufficient) and no one does anything for me. It can get quite isolating. I believe it is as much a part of the gospel to be needy and willing to be served (much harder than it may sound) as it is to be a server who has much to give.

[sgallan]

Our own abilities to work and learn through life's hardships is what makes our life full and green.

Indeed. This is why I see no particular value, or use for religion.

[Guest Syble]

Our own abilities to work and learn through life's hardships is what makes our life full and green.

Indeed. This is why I see no particular value, or use for religion.

No one works through anything and does it the very best possible except they do it through Christ. In the end, everyone will realize this, whether sooner or too later. (John 15)

[Guest Monica]

Why are Jehovah's Witnesses coming to awaken me every Saturday morning?

[prisonchaplain]

Why are Jehovah's Witnesses coming to awaken me every Saturday morning?

They are God's way of getting back at you for leaving a bunch of one-liner cryptic post response questions that are often unclear. :-)

[begood2]

Why are Jehovah's Witnesses coming to awaken me every Saturday morning?

Monica,

They feel that they are bringing you a great message of salvation, that you need to hear. :)

When they come to my house ...I'm kind and respectful to them, but I let them know that I'm LDS and very happy with my church. Sometimes we talk and discuss scriptures, sometimes I'm busy and I politely tell them so. :)

If I were a late Saturday morning sleeper, I would inform them of it, or post a message on the door.

The main idea that I would like to convey here...is that even though I'm LDS and not looking to join another religion...I respect the right of other religions to go door to door telling the residents about their religious beliefs, without being subjected to ridicule or belittlement, just as I hope our own missionaries and priesthood holders are treated when they go out to spread the LDS message of salvation. :)

[Guest Syble]

Why would people who are absorbed in “self” even want any help from “others”???

Indeed. But I have learned when I need help I can get it first and foremost from family, and friends I have helped..... mostly in the wrestling community. Asking for that help is natural and usually it is offered before I even ask. Church's, religions, people I work with, community types, and so forth, really aren't the ones who have been any help. Just lip service. I think those folks get kind of overwhelmed.

I find this to be true myself. In fact I am quite often overwhelmed. There are so many things to do with our families and then add the church activities and time just is too short. But we still find time to mow our neighbor's lawn when he is too busy to get it done for a week or two. We still help on the road when we find a stranded driver. We have lent more tools than Checker auto sells, given money to every begger in every grocery store parking lot.

I don't do as well with helping those who ask, as you see these other things I do, I do because I have time when the need arises and the choice is unobligatory and freely given.

I had 2 sisters I visit teach come to my home over and over again for help. First we lent one a cell phone and gave her and her daughter free hair cuts, then the other one came time after time to be driven from Orem to Springville (Stoeffers) to work from 3pm to 3am, getting calls in the middle of the night to be picked up until I hadn't had enough sleep for over a month. Then the other sister comes and asks for $250 so she can get her daughter out of hock with her probation officer and so they could get food.

Well you can see if this continues indefinitely, there is a problem with getting overwhelmed.

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

Wow you people are so clueless....what happens to the person who relizes they need help but can't get it. Until you have suffered through depression lets not paint labels okay. I am nothing like you described and it pains me to think that people might look at me that way. This just feeds into my theory more and more that unless you are happy and living well than the LDS church has no use for you.

Quite frankly, I'm shocked. I do not understand the responses I got to the suggesting that the church needs to rally around its own. Maybe I did not communicate clearly. I'll try once again with two scenarios:

1. Church member loses a job, gets sick, is have marital troubles, has children who are wayward, etc. S/he deeply desires prayer, a listening ear, perhaps even a helping hand, but is fearful that if the request is made, the spiritual family members will begin to ask: Is there sin in your life? Have YOU prayed about it? Have you been setting the right example? Are you giving it to God? Maybe your incompetent (said more politely and 'in love' of course). So, smiles and pretend happiness become the order of the day, and Prozac the order of the night.

2. Church member gets a new job, a promotion, is pregnant, just got a bonus, just won a prize, etc. However, s/he is fearful of giving testimony because it might hurt those who lost jobs, got poor work evaluations, can't get pregnant, just lost some money, or just failed in some venture. Besides, if they share the happiness, others might accuse them of pride (or 'spiritual pride').

3. My recommended solution: Jesus said to mourn with those who mourn, and rejoice with those who rejoice. Usually, all wounded people are looking for is some prayer, a listening ear, and a word of encouragement. Rejoicing people are looking for affirmation, for a sense that the spiritual community feels its reputation is blessed when a member is blessed.

I didn't think I was out to lunch on this. Is what I am saying so foreign, so revolutionary?

I was simply trying to point out the difference between those who are absorbed in “self” and those who are absorbed in “others”, suggesting that those who are absorbed in “self” don’t really want any help from “others”, because they are absorbed in “self”.

And while I do believe we all should help others who truly need our help, to the best of our ability, I think the best thing we can do within our ability to help others is to teach others to become as self-reliant as possible, instead of trying to supply the needs of others who come to us, or others, for help.

For instance, when others come to me for help when they are hungry, I think the best thing I can do for them is to teach them what they can do to supply their own needs for food, so they can have food whenever they want it, instead of trying to supply them with every meal they will need until the day they die.

Or in other words, to give someone a short term “fix” for a problem doesn’t really “help” because it doesn’t solve the problem, so to truly “help” someone we should do all we can to help them fix their problem, instead of trying to fix it ourselves.

And btw, if our idea of trying to help someone solve their problem is to fix their problem for them, then we are not “helping” them, and are instead only prolonging their problem.

Or in other words, since we should all become as perfect as God is perfect, as our Savior told us we should be, then we should strive to be as self-sufficient as God is self-sufficient, asking for help from others only when we truly need their help, instead of asking for things from others simply because we want something they have. And the flip side is that we should only give help to others when we can see that they truly need our help, instead of giving away all kinds of things people ask for simply because we have something they want.

Or in other words, I believe there should be a balance between how much we (all of us) ask for help from others and how much we help ourselves, with that balance being determined by how much we can do for ourselves without asking for any help.

And btw, the more I have seen and continue to see how much I can do all on my own, the more I am humbled and aware of the fact that I have received and still need all kinds of help from others, especially God, as I still do all I can do on my own, which helps to make me even more willing to help others who truly need some help, instead of simply supplying the needs of others who are so absorbed in themselves that they only want all they can get from others without trying to help themselves.

[Sugarbay]

I panicked there for a moment when it looked as if youwere leaving! I am glad you aren't. You are one of the most Christian posters there are on this board and I do so enjoy reading your posts. Scared me, Chap!

B)

[prisonchaplain]

I panicked there for a moment when it looked as if youwere leaving! I am glad you aren't. You are one of the most Christian posters there are on this board and I do so enjoy reading your posts. Scared me, Chap!

B)

This is very sweet. I'm am touched. But...where'd did this come from? That rumor is about 3 weeks old!