Bible Under Fire

[prisonchaplain]

We seem to be at an impasse concerning our separate understanding of convening councils and their method of selection of scriptures that comprise what is now the Christian Bible canon and how that relates to what is important scripture. May I summarize our views according to my prejudice as follows?:

Your view => Man shall not live by bread alone but by every decision brought about and edited by a convening council.

My view => Man shall not live by bread alone but by EVERY WORD that proceeds from the mouth of G-d. (note the emphasis and importance of the phrase “every word and the source”)

This is not really intended to sound rude but I do not know how else to express it.

I didn't take it as rude. Perhaps, crudely clever.

It appears to me that you lack the means to determine what are in totality the words that proceed forth from the mouth of G-d and therefore you require a convening council to define that for you. On the other hand I demand the right to do it for myself and within the context of the faith I espouse I find no support from traditional Christianity to my point of view.

Well, you're not really merely relying on the Word of God in it's original then. Rather than trust the leaders of the Church on this matter of canon, you seem to believe it is required of EVERY Christian to determine for him/herself what is canon, and what is not.

The traditional Mormon/non-Mormon impasse here is simply over whether or not the post-apostolic church had authority or not. JS said it became apostate (or lost the full truth, as LDS progressives prefer), whereas even non-Catholic evangelicals believe that the human church was never perfect, but yet remains authoritative.

To summarize Traveler's last paragraph, there were two key questions:

1. How can non-LDS say the canon is closed?

2. How can non-LDS say the canon contains all truth?

#1. Once again, non-LDS Christians do NOT believe the gospel was lost, and therefore in need of restoring. Therefore, while we Protestants may have parted organizationally with the Catholic church, over doctrinal and practical disagreements, we do not deny the authority of the Church, particularly from 100 - 1500 AD. So, we may examine the work of the various councils, but our default position is to concur that God directed them.

#2. This is a mistatement--it is a Mormon perception of the general Christian answer to a distinctly Mormon question. We non-LDS simply do not go around asking, "Does the Bible contain all the truth there is?" Rather, there are two general positions on the question of whether revelation from God still happens.

A. Fundamentalists say absolutely not. The Bible contains all that we need, and any claims of prophecies, or 'God spoke to me," call into question the sufficiency of the Bible.

B. Pentecostals/Charismatics: Yes, revelation happens today through the gifts of prophecy, and of tongues and interpretation. HOWEVER, such 'words from the Lord,' are subordinate to the Bible.

So, of course, there is truth that is extrabiblical. All truth comes from God. However, since we do not believe the church became apostate, nor that the gospel was lost, we look at church history and see no new written revelations post 100AD, we have all that God wanted for us in terms of written Scripture.

[Traveler]

B. Pentecostals/Charismatics: Yes, revelation happens today through the gifts of prophecy, and of tongues and interpretation. HOWEVER, such 'words from the Lord,' are subordinate to the Bible.

So, of course, there is truth that is extrabiblical. All truth comes from God. However, since we do not believe the church became apostate, nor that the gospel was lost, we look at church history and see no new written revelations post 100AD, we have all that God wanted for us in terms of written Scripture.

I can agree in part with these thoughts - thought I do not believe in subordinate truth but I think we agree on more points than we disagree so I see no purpose in beating a dead horse. I also think we agree more about apostasy that meets the eye. I believe that the apostasy is still so strong among Christians (including LDS) that we lack the spiritual strength (keys of authority) to govern ourselves as a Christian nation. - Though I do believe that you and I could live neighbor to neighbor. I believe the LDS welfair program comes as close to what we LDS call the Zion society (power to govern ourselves based on G-d's law and authority). But this is a whole other topic.

The Traveler

PS. I also believe it is up to individuals and families to establish covenants with G-d regardless of scripture or organized religion. I believe individuals (not religions) are spiritually borne of G-d.

[prisonchaplain]

I can agree in part with these thoughts - thought I do not believe in subordinate truth but I think we agree on more points than we disagree so I see no purpose in beating a dead horse. I also think we agree more about apostasy that meets the eye. I believe that the apostasy is still so strong among Christians (including LDS) that we lack the spiritual strength (keys of authority) to govern ourselves as a Christian nation. - Though I do believe that you and I could live neighbor to neighbor. I believe the LDS welfair program comes as close to what we LDS call the Zion society (power to govern ourselves based on G-d's law and authority). But this is a whole other topic.

The Traveler

PS. I also believe it is up to individuals and families to establish covenants with G-d regardless of scripture or organized religion. I believe individuals (not religions) are spiritually borne of G-d.

Just some short responses--new strings may be justified on some of this.

1. Subordinate truth is also a Mormon belief. If I've been taught properly here and in How Wide the Divide, the LDS Church teaches that ALL written Scriptures are 'subordinate' to the statements and interpretations of God's living prophets. Under this rubric, the BoM, D&C and PoGP have at least an unofficial superiority to the Bible, not so much because of the "as far as it is translated properly" line that so rankles non-LDS Christians, but because it is older revelation.

2. As far as setting up Zion and how prepared God's people are, there is indeed a wide variety of views on this topic, even within evangelicalism (not to mention Catholic, mainline Protestant, etc.). However, the broadest categories are thus:

a. Post Millenialism: Christians are to prepare the world for Christ's return through advancing science, culture, ethics, and of course, the Gospel to the point where Christ sees that it is gloriously ready for his triumphant return.

b. Premillenialism: Christians are to do what they can for a lost and dying world. Winning souls is primary. A time of great trouble is coming when Christians will be persecuted and killed globally, when an Antichrist will rule, and when a great spiritual apostasy is yet to come, when the world will embrace a global religion that does not worship the one true and living God.

From your post, Traveler, I take that it most LDS embrace a more or less post-millenial view.

3. I am guessing that your individualistic approach to canon and covenants etc. is, while perhaps acceptable, not the mainstream undertanding within Mormonism?

[mom_of_jcchlsm]

PC said:

"a. Post Millenialism: Christians are to prepare the world for Christ's return through advancing science, culture, ethics, and of course, the Gospel to the point where Christ sees that it is gloriously ready for his triumphant return.

b. Premillenialism: Christians are to do what they can for a lost and dying world. Winning souls is primary. A time of great trouble is coming when Christians will be persecuted and killed globally, when an Antichrist will rule, and when a great spiritual apostasy is yet to come, when the world will embrace a global religion that does not worship the one true and living God.

From your post, Traveler, I take that it most LDS embrace a more or less post-millenial view."

I don't know about Traveler, but as I read your description of post-millenialism, I shook my head and thought "now who could believe that after reading the scriptures?" And as I read your description of premillenialism, I agreed with the first bit, but not the last. I think LDS believe something else entirely, though I don't know what you'd call it. We believe that we are to do all we can to teach and to cry repentance and to bring souls unto Christ. There is a limited time allotted for this, but we don't know how long. The general state of the world is becoming more and more evil and specifically, the gulf between the righteous and the wicked is widening - in the last days there will be no fence-sitters, no grey area. The Church (as an organization, not the body of people) is laying the foundation for Christ's millenial reign (such that when He comes, the political, administrative machine is in place). There are many specific prophecies yet to be fulfilled before Christ comes in glory, but many have already been fulfilled. When Christ returns, the wicked who are alive at that time will be burned as stubble in a field. We consider this the confirmation of the Earth - the baptism by fire. (the Earth having already been baptized by imersion at the time of the flood) The millenium will be a time of intense work, as the righteous dead are ressurected and the righteous living at the time of Christ's return are changed in an instant from living to immortal (many LDS refer to this as being "twinkled" ). During the millenium, Temple work will be performed for all who have ever lived upon the Earth. At the end of the millenium, Satan will be loosed again for a time. After that, anyone else who still needs to be ressurected will be, and then comes the final judgement.

[Traveler]

Just some short responses--new strings may be justified on some of this.

1. Subordinate truth is also a Mormon belief. If I've been taught properly here and in How Wide the Divide, the LDS Church teaches that ALL written Scriptures are 'subordinate' to the statements and interpretations of God's living prophets. Under this rubric, the BoM, D&C and PoGP have at least an unofficial superiority to the Bible, not so much because of the "as far as it is translated properly" line that so rankles non-LDS Christians, but because it is older revelation.

2. As far as setting up Zion and how prepared God's people are, there is indeed a wide variety of views on this topic, even within evangelicalism (not to mention Catholic, mainline Protestant, etc.). However, the broadest categories are thus:

a. Post Millenialism: Christians are to prepare the world for Christ's return through advancing science, culture, ethics, and of course, the Gospel to the point where Christ sees that it is gloriously ready for his triumphant return.

b. Premillenialism: Christians are to do what they can for a lost and dying world. Winning souls is primary. A time of great trouble is coming when Christians will be persecuted and killed globally, when an Antichrist will rule, and when a great spiritual apostasy is yet to come, when the world will embrace a global religion that does not worship the one true and living God.

From your post, Traveler, I take that it most LDS embrace a more or less post-millenial view.

3. I am guessing that your individualistic approach to canon and covenants etc. is, while perhaps acceptable, not the mainstream undertanding within Mormonism?

Sorry I do not have time to answer your questions as they should be. Other may be able to answer some things that I do not have time for.

1. You keep trying to make a LDS reference to our scriptures as canon. Perhaps our "Standard Works" are in some ways simular to canon and some may try to promote understanding that way - But I think you are smart enough to realize that there is a difference. I think I view the Scritpures much as Jesus asked us to. That is that the scriptures are not a source but only part of the spiritual evidence available to testify of Christ which is only understood through the "Gift" of the Holy Ghost. Christ is the standard and if there is anything subordinate then it is subordinate to Christ. Since I believe all truth comes from Christ then there can be no subordinate issue concerning truth. I think the only time there appears to be an issue is when Satan lies (either by quoting scripture or other means) to get someone to not rely on Christ as the authority and source of truth. If someone thinks scripture is the source of truth then two can disagree because of points of view. But if their source is Jesus the Christ then the only point of view is the opinion of Christ and there is no disagreement. This is why I ask about how disagreements are resolved in your religion.

I believe that when there is any disagrement concerning Christ (which is truth) - one or both involved in the disagrement are being influenced by Satan's lies - not Christ's teaching of truth as he intends it to be understood by man. Disagreement concerning the Christ, I believe is an indication of Apostasy. Perhaps if I can find the time I will start a thread titled - signs and indications of Apostasy - among individuals and institutions. If you like - you may start the thread. Depending on what time I have under the circumstances I will add what I can.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

I don't know about Traveler, but as I read your description of post-millenialism, I shook my head and thought "now who could believe that after reading the scriptures?" And as I read your description of premillenialism, I agreed with the first bit, but not the last. I think LDS believe something else entirely, though I don't know what you'd call it. We believe that we are to do all we can to teach and to cry repentance and to bring souls unto Christ. There is a limited time allotted for this, but we don't know how long. The general state of the world is becoming more and more evil and specifically, the gulf between the righteous and the wicked is widening - in the last days there will be no fence-sitters, no grey area. The Church (as an organization, not the body of people) is laying the foundation for Christ's millenial reign (such that when He comes, the political, administrative machine is in place). There are many specific prophecies yet to be fulfilled before Christ comes in glory, but many have already been fulfilled. When Christ returns, the wicked who are alive at that time will be burned as stubble in a field. We consider this the confirmation of the Earth - the baptism by fire. (the Earth having already been baptized by imersion at the time of the flood) The millenium will be a time of intense work, as the righteous dead are ressurected and the righteous living at the time of Christ's return are changed in an instant from living to immortal (many LDS refer to this as being "twinkled" ). During the millenium, Temple work will be performed for all who have ever lived upon the Earth. At the end of the millenium, Satan will be loosed again for a time. After that, anyone else who still needs to be ressurected will be, and then comes the final judgement.

Thanks Mom. Your post really helps. I've heard that the LDS is a pre-millenial movement, and yet I've only read hear about the Church laying the groundwork for Christ's kingdom--which sound postmillenial to my ears. From your post, I surmize that your church is premillenial, but that the leadership is taking a proactive role in getting things ready, administratively. Interesting. Again, Thanks!