does God punish you for doing bad things

[Matthew0059]

About thinking about sex all the time (I forgot to put this in my first post; beckysoup reminded me):

I don't know about 'regular' guys, but when I was involved in pornography and heavy masturbation, I thought about sex A LOT more than I do now. Now the desires and thoughts come much less often, and it's much easier to see a daughter of GOD and not immediately think of her sexual attractiveness- it's easier to actually step outside my own desires. Also, when desires do come, they're more wholesome- focused more on the emotional and physical intimacy that comes with sexuality within the bonds of marriage than on the guilty pleasure that accompanies sexual activity outside of marriage.

The hooplah about all guys our age only having sex on our mind is baloney. There are other great things out there- careers, hobbies, wholesome friendships, (most importantly) the Gospel, etc.- that can take up part of that time. I firmly believe that a well-rounded young man grounded in the Gospel thinks about sex far less often than his peers- and when he does think about it, it's much easier to control those feelings and 'lock away' those desires until marriage.

[Snow]

To those not talking about the issue presented in the OP: Could you please show Soldier752 respect and take your conversation elsewhere?

Mom? Is that you?

You seem to be getting crankier in your dotage.

[Justice]

Of course I can just as easily say that the ghost of Milton Berle's dog temps me and by virtue of the evidence, I'd be just as accurate as your claim.

I don't feel the need to resort to invisible beasts to explain my thoughts and behaviors any more than I need to look to the constellations.

Well, except that Milton Berle's dog isn't mentioned in scripture as the tempter...

[Snow]

Well, except that Milton Berle's dog isn't mentioned in scripture as the tempter...

No, I'm talking about actual evidence.

Remember, scripture also tells us that we should brutally slaughter people who pick up sticks on the Sabbath by hitting them with rocks until they have suffered so much that they die (picture in your head the barbarity of killing by stoning). We don't actually site that as evidence that God want us to murder people who do yard work on Sundays.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Snow

[Justice]

No, I'm talking about actual evidence.

Remember, scripture also tells us that we should brutally slaughter people who pick up sticks on the Sabbath by hitting them with rocks until they have suffered so much that they die (picture in your head the barbarity of killing by stoning). We don't actually site that as evidence that God want us to murder people who do yard work on Sundays.

We can site that as evidence that He once did.

[Dravin]

I think the word you are both looking for starts with a "c" not an "s".

[Justice]

I wasn't sure, I just copied him.

[Snow]

We can site that as evidence that He once did.

Uh - no. It is only evidence that an anonymous author some 3000 years ago, or some subsequent editor / redactor / copyist some 2600 years ago claimed that He did.

People like you dogmatic accept that as true but it doesn't qualify as evidence - only dogma.

Personally, I don't worship a god that commands his followers to commit horrific torture and murder on people who do yard work on the weekend. I worship a god that is good, and just.

[arid]

1 John Chapter 3 Verse 6

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

And Romans 6:22-23

22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So you need to accept that with your Salvation you should also have a life of holiness, not a life of torture where you flounder in sexual sin. If that isn't what you are experiencing; perhaps you need to take an honest look at where you really stand. There is time to get it right you are young.

[Justice]

I claim scripture is evidence.

We've gone through this before.

[Snow]

I claim scripture is evidence.

We've gone through this before.

And I claim that Lucille Ball sneaks into my house at night and washes my dirty clothes.

You claiming it doesn't make it true.

[Justice]

I really am very confused how a person of your intelligence can be so, well, intelligent, but not see this point.

Here is President Faust speaking of the Book of Mormon:

What It Is and Is Not

...The Book of Mormon establishes the truthfulness of the Bible. It is evidence “to the world that the holy scriptures are true.” It foretells the establishment of the fulness of the gospel of peace and salvation. It was written to give us principles and guidelines for our eternal journey.

One of the ultimate messages of the Book of Mormon, and indeed of the Old Testament and all human history, is that mankind cannot reach perfection on our own. There is another message that comes through loud and clear from its pages. It is the often unpopular and seemingly harsh injunction “Repent or perish.” When the Book of Mormon people listened to this prophetic message, they flourished. When they forgot the message, they perished.

In Galatians Paul said, “The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ.” The records maintained by the Book of Mormon prophets—and portions of what is now the Bible brought from the eastern continent—served, according to Abinadi, “to keep them in remembrance of God and their duty towards him.” So the Book of Mormon is a schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ.

Scriptural and Personal Testimonies

The test for understanding this sacred book is preeminently spiritual. An obsession with secular knowledge rather than spiritual understanding will make its pages difficult to unlock.

Article: LDS.org - Liahona Article - The Keystone of Our Religion

It's called revelation, Snow.

Alma 5:

45 And this is not all. Do ye not suppose that I know of these things myself? Behold, I testify unto you that I do know that these things whereof I have spoken are true. And how do ye suppose that I know of their surety?

46 Behold, I say unto you they are made known unto me by the Holy Spirit of God. Behold, I have fasted and prayed many days that I might know these things of myself. And now I do know of myself that they are true; for the Lord God hath made them manifest unto me by his Holy Spirit; and this is the spirit of revelation which is in me.

47 And moreover, I say unto you that it has thus been revealed unto me, that the words which have been spoken by our fathers are true, even so according to the spirit of prophecy which is in me, which is also by the manifestation of the Spirit of God.

Spending time in scientific journals and history books will never cause a man to know that the scriptures are true.

Alma did not say "I know they are true because an angel appeared unto me," or "I know they are true because I studied the Brass Plates and the Large Plates of Nephi." Certainly, the angel helped. Certainly, the historical records helped. But, Alma did not come to know they were true until he fasted, prayed, and sought for the confirmation of the Holy Spirit.

Snow, I know the scriptures are true. This is not a lame attempt to bear my testimony so you might feel the spirit. It is a solemn declaration of what I know to be true. There is no attempt to deceive or fraud. The Book of Mormon is true, as is the Bible. I did not learn it at NationalGeographic.com, nor by spending time in my local library.

Jesus Christ was born as the Son of God and Only Begotten of the Father, and I know this because the Spirit has confirmed to me that the scriptures are true.

As far as Lucille Ball washing your clothes... it doesn't matter.

Edited July 24, 2010 by Justice

[Melissa569]

I don't agree with this. Though it is 'typical' for males to think about sex, they shouldn't just use that as a cop out to think about sex whenever they want. Impure thoughts, committing adultery in your heart, is not something that we should consider 'normal' and advocate. Those thoughts, upon entering, should be chased out as quickly as possible.

Obviously the process can take years to master, but there's no reason to advocate such behavior, thereby stunting someone's ability to become perfected.

Well its not impure, or adultry, if its about the person you're married to, or planning to marry. As for perfection-- that's gonna have to wait until we're dead. Never gonna happen on earth. That's why I said a person's (not just a guy's) sexual thoughts should be "loving" and about someone they at least believe they love. It shouldn't be about just anyone and everyone, all the time, anywhere you go. But as far as thinking about it toward someone you're in love with, engaged to, or are married to, that IS perfectly natural. Trying to pretend that its not there is just unrealistic and unreasonable.

Nobody will ever be perfect while still in human form. And you can't hate yourself (or anyone else) because the impossible could not be achieved.

It doesn't mean you shouldn't try, it just means if you don't succeed-- don't just sit on the side of the road whining and beating yourself over the head because you couldn't be perfect. And don't let anyone else brow beat you for it either. Instead, get back up and keep going forward! The old saying "she show must go on" isn't just for the theater... Nobody has ever succeeded at perfection 100% in human form. Not in terms of our grace and techniques, OR in terms of sin. That's because we weren't even created with perfection in mind.

Its all about what we can do, and what we cannot do. We CAN be decent people, but we CANNOT be perfect. So.... Let's be decent people.

Besides, there is only one way to avoid doing something the worng way-- say nothing, do nothing, be nothing. But we weren't put here to be uninvolved.

Edited July 24, 2010 by Melissa569

[Justice]

Well its not impure, or adultry, if its about the person you're ... planning to marry.

You might be walking a fine line here.

I have learned that there is a fine line between teaching correct principles and being a hypoctire.

We must teach correct principles. If a father once experimented with drugs as a youth, he must still teach his children that they are wrong and can destroy them, even though he has overcome them and changed his life. It might make him a hypocrite, but it's the right thing to teach his children.

I would have to say lustful desires are always wrong, and are a result of following after the natural man. That doesn't mean I have never felt them, it means I was being natural and not spiritual when I felt them. They can be overcome.

That's because we weren't even created with perfection in mind.

We CAN be decent people, but we CANNOT be perfect.

Matt. 5:

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

And, Jesus said to the prostitute who was caught in the very act and brought before Him:

John 8:

11 ...Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Perfection is expected of us. That is why we work toward it. If it was not expected then we wouldn't work toward it. You should expect and require it of yourself.

We are working toward being perfect through repentance, which was made possible by the atonement of Christ. If it was not necessary for each of us to be perfect, there there would have been no need for the atonement.

Perfect is what was in mind when we were created. It is the final state of being for all those who inherit Celestal Glory. The only way you need not seek for perfection is if you don't seek for the Celestal Kingdom.

Of course, it's impossible to man... but not to God. God can help us become perfect, it is impossible to man alone. Only one person who has ever dwelt on this earth lived a full life of perfection. Even those who lived in the City of Enoch, and even the 2,000 stripling warriors did not live perefect lives. However, these and many others had their calling and election made sure through Christ because of their exceeding faith in Him. It doesn't mean they were perfect their entire lives. It means with God's help they obtained it.

Baptism and a broken heart and contrite spirit with constant attention to our spiritual self and activities, along with partaking of the sacrament and attending the temple regularly CAN make us perfect. That is the big secret. :)

Edited July 24, 2010 by Justice

[Dravin]

It might make him a hypocrite, but it's the right thing to teach his children.

Where does this sentiment come from? He would be a hypocrite if he held that it was fine and acceptable for him to have done so (or now do so) but is not okay for his children. Or if he maintained that it is not okay to do so but he does so anyway (note the tense). A hypocrite is not someone who has made a mistake, learned from it, changed and now recommends you not make the same mistakes.

There is a concept of hypocrite out there that seems like it wants to nix any teaching or admonition based on negative life experience.

Edited July 24, 2010 by Dravin

[crazypotato]

Uh - no. It is only evidence that an anonymous author some 3000 years ago, or some subsequent editor / redactor / copyist some 2600 years ago claimed that He did.

People like you dogmatic accept that as true but it doesn't qualify as evidence - only dogma.

Personally, I don't worship a god that commands his followers to commit horrific torture and murder on people who do yard work on the weekend. I worship a god that is good, and just.

You have your beliefs, we have ours. Why are you here? To discuss? To put down our beliefs? To mock?

[Dravin]

I think a large part of Snow's being here is he likes/wants to make people think. I think his approach tends to close more minds than it opens but what he feels are misapplied terms or inconsistent not well thought out comments seem to be what draws the Eye of Snow.

Eye of Snow:

[crazypotato]

i think a large part of snow's being here is he likes/wants to make people think. I think his approach tends to close more minds than it opens but what he feels are misapplied terms or inconsistent not well thought out comments seem to be what draws the eye of snow.

Eye of snow:

"i am the great and terrible snow! How dare you come before me!!! Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

[Justice]

Where does this sentiment come from? He would be a hypocrite if he held that it was fine and acceptable for him to have done so (or now do so) but is not okay for his children. Or if he maintained that it is not okay to do so but he does so anyway (note the tense). A hypocrite is not someone who has made a mistake, learned from it, changed and now recommends you not make the same mistakes.

There is a concept of hypocrite out there that seems like it wants to nix any teaching or admonition based on negative life experience.

Yes, what you describe is the classic example of a hypocrite.

As I said, in the way I describe it, there's a fine line.

I have heard people say, "You learned through experience so you should let your kids do the same."

I'm not advocating it, I'm just saying the line can be blurred for some.

I gave an example in Seminary one day and some of the students got it, and some didn't. My son was the main one that didn't.

In regard to listening to your parents "just because they have experience" I said it's a lot like driving down a road. Regardless if you like it or not, your parents are farther down the road than you are. They have handled the sharp curves and hit the pot holes. Being in the car behind them, you have the opportunity to learn from their path and avoid turns too sharp and possibly a wreck, or avoid pot holes that will bump and jar you.

Many got it, but on the way to school afterward, my son said, "Dad I want to pick my own roads and hit my own pot holes." Whenever I gave this oldest son counsel or advice, he always asked, "didn't you do this or that?" If I answered honsetly, sometimes I'd have to say of course. He saw it as me being a hypocrite if I did something and counseled him not to.

This oldest son of mine has had to learn many things in life the hard way. My other 3 children are not like my oldest in this regard. They love reading their scriptures and going to church. They are first up and first dressed Sunday morning. They listen.

The heart of what I'm getting at is the Savior's life is the only one we measure to. He lived the only perfect life. Although Joseph Smith was a wonderful man and prophet, he would never counsel you to follow him, because he would lead you down the wrong path at certain points during his life. Why follow one who follows? Yet, even though he would not tell anyone to follow him, he still taught correct principles, even if they were mistakes he made.

Honestly, some of the best teachers can be ones who have made mistakes. I bet Joseph Smith knew better than any other man that ever lived why when the Lord gives you an answer, you should accept it instead of going back to Him a 2nd or 3rd time.

So, I said there can be a fine line between the 2 at times... not that one who teaches correctly, even though he learned through experience, is a hypocrite. We as parents and friends need to understand this. It's hard for people who lack expeprience to understand the difference at times. It's hard for some to know how they can learn if they don't experience.

Some have the gift of learning from other's mistakes, some do not.

Edited July 24, 2010 by Justice

[coyotemoon722]

Its all about what we can do, and what we cannot do. We CAN be decent people, but we CANNOT be perfect. So.... Let's be decent people.

You told him not to stop thinking about sex. No need in writing a full essay about it, I just felt it was the wrong advice. He said he had a problem where he couldn't stop thinking about sex. While it's typical in most males, it shouldn't be a "normal" thing for a Saint STRIVING for perfection. I never said we would reach perfection in mortal life, that's obviously absurd. "Perfecting the Saints" is an ideal that stems from curbing such behavior has thinking of sex or any sin for that matter, whenever one feels like it. Unfortunately I don't remember exactly which General Authority spoke about it; I'd have to do a little research. You didn't just try to defend your point, but misconstrued what I actually wrote entirely.

In your original post, you essentially told him not to change that part of his behavior {Thinking about sex(In his case it would be all or most of the time)}. There's no changing that, that's what you said. We definitely have to change to become more like Christ, and to become perfected over the course of this lifetime and beyond. Again, a LONG process that STARTS in this life, and continues through into the next; But one that shouldn't be completely disregarded for the sake of "normalcy".

Edited July 24, 2010 by coyotemoon722

[Dravin]

If I answered honsetly, sometimes I'd have to say of course. He saw it as me being a hypocrite if I did something and counseled him not to.

Yeah, what I had in mind was a teen when I wrote most of my post. Teen logic, by and large, annoys me.

[Cassiopeia]

I think a large part of Snow's being here is he likes/wants to make people think. I think his approach tends to close more minds than it opens but what he feels are misapplied terms or inconsistent not well thought out comments seem to be what draws the Eye of Snow.

I can see the importance and validity of wanting to help people to think but forcing one's opinion in an overbearing and critical way does the opposite. And one becomes viewed as that "troll" and from that point on, nothing they have to say is ever considered to be truthful or enlightening which is unfortunate because most everyone has something of value to contribute.

[Matthew0059]

Soldier-

There's a book dealing with addiction called "Willpower is Not Enough" that might help you out.

How are you doing? If you are still reading this thread, give us an update if you can.

[Dravin]

I can see the importance and validity of wanting to help people to think but forcing one's opinion in an overbearing and critical way does the opposite. And one becomes viewed as that "troll" and from that point on, nothing they have to say is ever considered to be truthful or enlightening which is unfortunate because most everyone has something of value to contribute.

Indeed, which is why I think his approach tends to be counter productive.

Edited July 24, 2010 by Dravin

[Moksha]

I think a large part of Snow's being here is he likes/wants to make people think. I think his approach tends to close more minds than it opens...

You might have something there. My daughter told me just last night that she does the opposite of what anybody tells her to do. If only Snow would tell us to have closed minds to begin with, then all would be well.