LDS Question from a Baptist

[beefche]

So, Whynot, while you say that the Book of Mormon does not tell the full doctrine of Jesus, I'm not sure what you are talking about. Mormons believe that 3 Nephi 11 records the words of Jesus to those on the American continent. Therefore, the previous post records the words of Jesus Christ to the people in the which He declared His doctrine--specifically repent, be baptised in His name--essentially, believe that Jesus Christ is our Savior and Redeemer and only through Him, by Him and of Him are we saved.

So, what doctrine is missing from the Book of Mormon?

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

Hello all,

I'm new here. Great site!

I will preface this by saying that I have been investigating the LDS church for about 6 months now. This week, I made my decision to remain in the Baptist Church. I will say that I do believe the LDS church is an upstanding place, its members are sincere, and it is morally upright. My decision however was based on two sticking points that no matter how hard I tried to look away from, I couldn't. I'd like to get your opinions on them, especially from the LDS folks.

I will agree that alot of what has been said about the LDS church Biblically is questionable. I do believe there is some Biblical evidence that supports, and confirms the LDS church.

My concerns lie with the Book of Mormon itself. I said that some folks....admittedly mostly Baptists....throw mud at the LDS church because of the Book of Mormon. An often used scripture to refute the BofM is Revelations 22:18-19: "I testify to everyone who hears the propheti words of this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this prophetic book, God will take away his share of the tree of life and the Holy City written in this book." In my intepretation, this admonishment applies specifically to the Book of Revelation. My issue with the BofM from a Biblical perspective arose in Galatians 1:8-9. "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, a curse be on him! As we have said before, I now say again: if anyone preaches to you a gospel contrary to what you received, a curse be on him! Thoughts?

As a PhD student, here's a major issue for me. I can get on a plane and fly to Israel tomorrow. I can travel to Jericho. Bethlehem. The Dead Sea. I cannot, however, travel to Zarahemla or Moriantum. Why? Because to date, we have no clue...none, where these places are, or if they even existed.

I ask these questions seriously. I do not seek an argument. I am really interested to understand how the LDS folks explain this. Because in all honesty, these nagging issueskept me away from Baptism.

All of you be safe.

Here is my article on Galatians 1: 6-9. Here is an abstract from that lengthy article for you to consider:

The importance in understanding to whom this epistle was written is to understand the actual historical context of how and why the Apostle Paul wrote what he wrote to certain peoples and groups. Thus, we must have a basic foundational understanding as to the historical context of the Epistle before any consideration of the textual context is to be discussed and understood. While, I am not going to delve into the nature as to whom the epistle was written too, suffice it to say that we understand the textual context as being this: …Unto the Churches of Galatia. (see Gal. 1:2). Whether these churches were in the Northern part or Southern Part is up for debate and is only mentioned here as a background of historical understanding.

However, not only is the historical context important to understand, but the importance of the content of the message, nature of the message and purpose of the message must be understood and properly interpreted within this historical context. While there is dispute as to the date of the Epistle itself, the overall historical context of the Epistle is two-fold:

1) It is addressing an attack on the Apostleship of Paul and his doctrines he espouse and teach.

2) It is addressing the false teaching by those Jewish-Christians who were convincing the Galatian Christians that they must adhere to the Jewish rituals of circumcision and keep the strict observations of the feasts and new moons as perscribed within the Old Covenant and Judaic Law.

3) Finally, the evidence of Gal. 1:6 shows forth the historical context of how First Century Christians fell into Apostasy due to false doctrines and teachings that others purport to instill upon others.

It is here that when a person truly studies the historical and doctrinal aspects of the Epistle of Galatians, there is the understanding that the modern Christian Apologetic reasoning to use Gal. 1:6-9 as a proof text to refute Mormonism is invalidated on the more evidentiary reasoning as to the actual historical and doctrinal context of the epistle itself. Therefore, let us look at the first aspect of the Epistle.

The Apostolic Authority of Paul under Attack

As mentioned before, the first aspect of the Epistle is the direct attack upon the apostleship of Paul. Burton, in the same work mentioned above, discusses the nature of the attack upon Paul’s Apostleship:

The letter itself furnishes evidence, which is confirmed by 1 and 2 Corinthians, that the apostolic office or function was clearly recognised as one of great importance in the Chris tian community, and that the question who could legitimately claim it was one on which there was sharp difference of opinion. An apostle was much more than a local elder or itinerant mis sionary. He was a divinely commissioned founder of Christian churches, indeed, more, of the Christian church œcumenical. With their effort to keep the Christian movement within the Jewish church, including proselytes from other religions, the judaisers naturally associated the contention that the aposto late was limited to those who were appointed by Jesus or by those whom he appointed. With their denial of the distinct ive doctrines of Paul they associated a denial of his right to teach them as an apostle. This denial seems to have taken the form of representing Paul as a renegade follower of the Twelve, a man who knew nothing of Christianity except what he had learned from the Twelve, and preached this in a per verted form. This appears from the nature of Paul’s defence of his independent authority as an apostle in the first two chap ters of the letter, and indicates that with their theory of a lim ited apostolate the judaisers had associated the claim that the apostolic commission must proceed from the circle of the origi nal Twelve.

It is the very same attitude of these Jewish-Christians (or Judiazers) that modern Christian Apologists implement in their arguments to deny the Apostleship of the General Authorities of the Latter-day Saint Christian Faith, limiting it to the Original Twelve apostles of Christ. Discredit the authority of the person, one ultimately discredits the nature and purpose of the message being delivered. A very serious charge to make and buy into – one of which a commentator has taken upon themselves to perform:

eternally condemned; The Holy Spirit speaks this through the Apostle Paul, this means that Joseph Smith is accursed and damned to hell for preaching another gospel. And you can only be saved by receiving the True Gospel as The Holy Spirit and faith are only imparted through the preaching of the true Gospel

However, Burton is not the only one to discuss this. Martin Luther, one of the great reformers and quite possibly the father of the Protestant Reformation, provided the following commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians:

In every way they sought to undermine the authority of St. Paul. They said to the Galatians: “You have no right to think highly of Paul. He was the last to turn to Christ. But we have seen Christ. We heard Him preach. Paul came later and is beneath us. It is possible for us to be in error—we who have received the Holy Ghost? Paul stands alone. He has not seen Christ, nor has he had much contact with the other apostles. Indeed, he persecuted the Church of Christ for a long time.”

Who were these people that Luther refers to?

These Jewish-Christian fanatics who pushed themselves into the Galatian churches after Paul’s departure, boasted that they were the descendants of Abraham, true ministers of Christ, having been trained by the apostles themselves, that they were able to perform miracles.

Why I mention this is because of the tone of the Epistle from the outset. Imagine having seen Christ. Being struck down on your way to arrest believers and you are a Jew who perscribed to the Pharisaic traditions. You encounter the Resurrected Christ, spend time with the original twelve, are separated with another into the apostolic calling and go about preaching the Gosple, setting up churches and submitting letters to keep those believers adherent to true doctrines and teachings. Imagine having been informed that your very own testimony, the very calling you hold to as coming from God and you have been separated into by the original twelve is being discredited. How would one respond? The answer is quite clear. Paul is angry and upset. Angry that those defactors are denying his apostolic calling. Using their reasoning and argumentation of their perverted belief that because they are descendents of Abraham, that they are the only sole heirs of Salvation and that in order to be saved, one has to not only be cirucmcised but have to be adopted into the Judiac religion.

This is where the argument of the Christian Apologist falls apart when using Galatians 1:6-9 as a proof text to prove that Mormonism is “another Gospel” that is false and preaching a different Jesus. In fact, there are two main points where this argument falls apart, when properly examined in historical and textual context: 1) Claiming to be the “Chosen” people of God based upon Ancestrial decent from Abraham as those Jews of the First Century rise of Christianity; And, 2) Teaching that in order to be saved, one has to adhere to the circumcision and be adopted into the lineage of Abraham in order to be considered part of the Chosen people of God.

Mormon’s do not claim any judiac traditions to Abraham. Meaning, members of the faith, nor the leaders go about saying that we are “Abraham’s Seed” and therefore are the sole persons of the True Gospel Message. In fact, if anything, we definitely understand what Christ and Paul truly taught regarding who were of the Seed of Abraham:

They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. (John 8:39).

When we look at the context of John 8:39, we find that there is a discussion between the Jews and Christ. In fact, verse 33 says this: They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed…and Christ responding with acknowledgement to their response in verse 37: I know that ye are Abraham’s seed. Yet, sandwiched between 33 and 37, we find that Christ says a very interesting thing: Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. Thus, the context of what Christ says in verse 39 is understood within the context of verses 33-39. What were the works of Abraham? And why is that important to understand in light of Galatians 1?

John Calvin, in his work Commentary on John – Volume 1, discusses the nature of verse 39 and the context of verses 33-39.

39. Abraham is our father. This altercation shows plainly enough how haughtily and fiercely they despised all Christ’s reproofs. What they continually claim and vaunt of is, that they are Abraham’s children; by which they do not simply mean that they are the lineal descendants of Abraham, but that they are a holy race, the heritage of God, and the children of God. And yet they rely on nothing but the confidence of the flesh. But carnal descent, without faith, is nothing more than a false pretense. We now understand what it was that so greatly blinded them, so that they treated Christ with disdain, though armed with deadly thunder. Thus the word of God, which might move stones, is ridiculed in the present day by Papists, as if it were a fable, and fiercely persecuted by fire and sword; and for no other reason but that they rely on their false title of “the Church,” and hope that they will be able to deceive both God and man. In short, as soon as hypocrites have procured some plausible covering, they oppose God with hardened obstinacy, as if he could not penetrate into their hearts.

If you were the children of Abraham, you would do the works of Abraham. Christ now distinguishes more plainly between the bastard and degenerate children of Abraham, and the true and lawful children; (“Entre les enfans d’Abraham qui sont bastars et forlignans, et le vrais et legitimes.”) for he refuses to give the very name to all who do not resemble Abraham True, it frequently happens that children do not resemble, in their conduct, the parents from whom they are sprung; but here Christ does not argue about carnal descent, but only affirms that they who do not retain by faith the grace of adoption are not reckoned among the children of Abraham before God. For since God promised to the seed of Abraham that he would be their God, saying,

I will establish my covenant between me and thee, and thy seed after thee, in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, (Genesis 17:7,)

all unbelievers, by rejecting this promise, excluded themselves from the family of Abraham.

The state of the question therefore is this: Ought they to be accounted Abraham’s children who reject the blessing offered to them in the word, so that, notwithstanding of this, they shall be a holy nation, the heritage of God, and a royal priesthood? (Exodus 19:6; Joel 3:2.) Christ denies this, and justly; for they who are the children of the promise must be born again by the Spirit, and all who desire to obtain a place in the kingdom of God ought to be new creatures. Carnal descent from Abraham was not indeed useless, and of no value, provided that the truth were added to it. For election dwells in the seed of Abraham, but it is free, so that all whom God sanctifies by his Spirit are accounted heirs of life.

What I find strikingly similiar (when I had devoted some time to studying the historical aspect of the Epistle to the Galatains) is that the similar arguments proposed by the Judiazers as to their direct lineage of Abraham is that of those Jews who confronted Christ while he served his earthly ministry and stated the same argument and were proven false. Yet, the question had not been answered - what were the works of Abraham and why did Christ mention to these people that if Abraham were truly their father, they would do the work of Abraham? The answer is very simple and quite obvious. Faith. The work of Abraham was that of faith in the redemptive power of Christ and the salvation of man. This is evident in verse 56: Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day.

Paul says this in Romans 4:3 – For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. What scripture is Paul referring to?

While many interpreters would say that this is evidence of salvation of grace within the Old Testament, a true and more careful reading of the scripture Paul refers to does not talk about works of righteousness, but talks about believing in the promises of God and the covenants God makes with those who choose to enter into a righteous relationship with the Divine:

…the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not fear, Abram, I am a shield to you; Your reward shall be very great.” And Abram said, “O Lord God, what wilt Thou give me, since I am childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus? And Abram said, Since Thou hast given no offspring to me, one born in my house is my heir.” Then behold, the word of the Lord caem to him, saying, “This man will not be your heir; but one who shall come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir.” And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your decsendants be.” Then he blieved in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness” (Genesis 15:1-6, NASB)

Regarding how Genesis 15:1-6 is referring to Faith as a Work, we look only to James 2: 21 – Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

We understand that the nature of God calling up Abram to sacrifice his only begotten son was to test his “faith” in God. Because of Abram’s faith, he believed that there was a purpose and reason for such a command. This is where the argument of the Salvation by Grace alone and Salvation of Grace and Sanctification come into conflict. It is this very reason that some Christian Apologists rely so heavily upon the idea and understanding that because Galatians 1:6-9 talk about a Gospel of Works as being another gospel and therefore cursed by God is reason to condemn Mormonism.

However, the reality and truth is, that when we look at the nature of the Gospel of Grace, we see that we are not only called into repentance and embrace the reality of Christ, but that we are to no longer live as we had lived prior to our conversion. Our faith is not just a belief but a life long change to conform our will to following Christ. Thus, when we look at Abraham, we see that God made a promise to Abraham in providing an heir and that Abraham would be the father of an innumerable amount of people. Christ, declared to the false Jewish belief that because they were of the lineage of Abraham, they were therefore Chosen of God as a holy and distinct people, stated that if these Jews were truly the Seed of Abraham, then they would believe in Christ just as Abraham believed in him – Christ being the Lord in the Old Testament. It is the reason Paul, the Apostle, stated in Romans that because Abram believed on the word of God, that he was declared righteous.

What all this means is that when we look at all of the Apostle Paul’s teaching, he taught two fundamental things:

1) Salvation does not come from lineage and ancestrial descent.

2) Salvation is not produced from performance of any type of “Works of Righteousness” as a means to gain Christ’s acceptance. On the contrary, because of Christ’s redemption and saving grace bestowed upon us, we manifest our appreciation and devotion in following after him and because of our faith in Christ, the evidence is the very works produced as a result of that faith and devotion – Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. is the opposite of if a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. The Apostle Paul stated it simply, by their fruits, ye shall know them. Christ declared that a good tree does not bring forth evil fruit and a bad tree does not bring forth good fruit. Works are the fruit of our faith.

Hence, it is this very reason that those Jewish-Christians who claimed that because they were descendants of Abraham, they were the “promised and chosen” seed of Abraham. Thereby, perverting the Gospel of Christ and teaching the Galatian believers that in order for them to be saved, they had to not do the works of righteousness, but had to embrace the traditions and rituals of the Judiac rights of circumcision and be adopted into the “family lineage” of Abraham in order to be considered the chosen of God. Something that the Mormon Faith, Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and the Prophets and apostles of the Church have never; nor, will ever teach and embrace.

This is the true interpretation of the Galatian passage that critic's like to use as a proof text against Mormonism, Joseph Smith, and the Book of Mormon.

[Whynot]

John 14:23,24; "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words, and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me."

John 8: 31,32; "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

John 17:6-24:

"I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

"I pray for them. I do not pray for the world, but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth."

"I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word, that they all may be one, as You Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just a We are one. I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me."

Matthew 7:# 7:21; "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."

# 7:22,23; "Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!"

# 7:24,25; "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock."

# 7:26,27; "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."

Jesus taught a number of things not in the Book of Mormon account, and perhaps you have much of it in the D&C, but as is recorded in John, He prayed for those who would believe on Him through their word, and their word was to tell us what Jesus taught and commanded - the gospel of the kingdom of heaven.

Acts 3:22,23 is clear that we are to abide in whatever that Prophet said, and I'm sure you believe Jesus Christ is that living prophet.

[beefche]

So, you are saying that we should preach Jesus? Do Mormons not preach Jesus?

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

John 14:23,24; "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words, and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me."

What was Christ's word? Let us look at the context of John 14. Christ establishes that he is the Only way to the Father. He also states that he goes and prepares a place, and that there are many mansions in His Father's house. It is when we come to verse 12 that we find what Christ is beginning to say:

12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father (emphasis mine).

Notice that Christ says that those who believe on Jesus Christ, will be able to do the same works that Christ had done. What works had Christ done? Heal the sick, preached the gospel, raised the dead, called people unto repentance, walked in obedience to the will and commandments of the Father. Not only that, but he stated that those who believe on Him would do greater works than he had done in his mortal life.

We continue reading and we come to verse 15 where Christ says that if we truly do love him, we will keep his commandments. What are Christ's commandments? 1) Love the Lord your God with all your heart, might, mind and strength; and 2) Love your neighbor as yourself.

When we look at this contextually and come to the verses you stated, we understand that Christ's words are based on the fact that we are to abide in keeping His commandments, Not only that, but when we abide in his words, we will perform the very works he performed, and even perform greater works that Christ had performed.

John 8: 31,32; "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Again, whenever we read where Christ says "If ye continue in my word" we understand it to mean that if we truly believe that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior, that he did in fact come and die for our sins, that he was buried, rose the third day and ascended into heaven with a Glorified body of flesh and bone, then we shall continually put off the natural man, align our will to the very will of God and walk in obedience. Christ is very clear and distinct that when he says we are to continue in his word, we are to continue in his teachings by following his very own example.

In this passage, he relates that he does nothing of himself but that which he was taught by the Father. Again, another passage of scripture that distinctively identifies that Christ and the Father are separate from one another and not ONE ESSENCE OF A BEING. What Christ did, he did because he was continually taught of the Father. What does Christ teach us that we are to continue in his word? Again, it goes back to doing the works of Christ - being Christ-like ourselves.

John 17:6-24:

"I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

"I pray for them. I do not pray for the world, but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth."

"I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word, that they all may be one, as You Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just a We are one. I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me."

Christ's intercessory prayer for the disciples (Son of Perdition being referred to as Judas of Iscariot who fulfilled the prophecy of betraying Christ).

What is interesting to note here is that while Christ distinguishes himself from the Father, he also exemplifies that he and the father are united just as we are united together as one in Christ. We are separate distinct individuals that make up one body.

Matthew 7:# 7:21; "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."

# 7:22,23; "Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!"

# 7:24,25; "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock."

# 7:26,27; "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."

Again, what does Christ say in these passages? 1) that we are to build our faith on the very foundation of Jesus Christ. Why is Christ the foundation? Because it is through him that we have eternal life - salvation from both sin and death. 2) The contrast between the good and evil tree. A good tree can't bring forth evil fruit, nor could an evil tree bring forth good fruit. If we are grafted into Christ, we are therefore prudent to bring forth good fruit (Faith + Works, the latter being evidence of our faith). 3) Verses 26-27 is Christ's concluding remarks on the Sermon on the Mount. Chapter 7 of the Gospel of Matthew is the final teaching on the sermon on the mount. So, verses 26-27 where Christ says that every man who builds his house on the rock is symbolic of everyone who builds their testimony and life on Jesus Christ. He is the foundation, the chief cornerstone and therefore we ought to follow his example in both word and deed.

Jesus taught a number of things not in the Book of Mormon account, and perhaps you have much of it in the D&C, but as is recorded in John, He prayed for those who would believe on Him through their word, and their word was to tell us what Jesus taught and commanded - the gospel of the kingdom of heaven.

Inaccurate. The Book of Mormon actually does testify that we are to continue in Christ's word, fashion our lives after Christ, and submit our will over to the Father. We are to walk in humility and obedience. This is throughout the course of the Book of Mormon.

[rameumptom]

Jesus taught that His words are imperishable by any means. When I considered the record of the teachings of Jesus in the Bible and compared them to the teachings of Jesus in the Book of Mormon, there are some notable differences.

In the Bible record we see the great commission in Matthew as discipleship to Him.

make disciples of Him.

baptize these disciples.

teach them to observe whatsoever He had commanded them (the original eye witness disciples.

So the Bible record has Jesus declaring the doctrine of God and seeking to do His will, then that there would be some things which the eye witness disciples would be given by the Holy Spirit that they were not able to receive when Jesus was with them, and also that the Holy Spirit would enable them to remember all that He had taught them.

Oddly, in the Book of Mormon, instead of a full accounting of the doctrine of God that Jesus gave in the Bible, we find Jesus telling everyone present to do whatever the apostles tell them to do.

I see this as the primary difference in the teachings of Jesus between the Bible and the Book of Mormon, but no 'anti-Mormon' book I've ever read even mentions this.

I'll invite anyone who loves the Lord to recognize the whole truth as taught by the Lord.

The problem with this is, you are way off. In 2 Nephi 31, Nephi teaches that the Doctrine of Christ is: faith in Christ, repentance, baptism, and receiving the Holy Ghost.

In 3 Nephi 11, we see the same thing. Yes, Christ tells the people to follow the apostles, as they are the ones Christ set apart to teach and guide them after he left. What did they teach? Faith in Christ, repentance, and obedience - exactly what Peter, Paul, and the other apostles taught in the Bible. So, this is the exact same pattern we find in the Bible. Are you suggesting that the Bible is false, because it matches the Bible in this?

Paul taught that the foundation of the Church is made up of "apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone" (Ephesians 2). Clearly, Christ thought it important for people to follow apostles, otherwise he would not have given the priesthood power and authority to guide the Church.

I would be very surprised to learn you had actually read the Book of Mormon. Your responses show you really do not understand the Bible, as you do not quote it, nor do you clearly explain your understanding of the Bible. Nor do you understand the Book of Mormon, as you have shown in your statements.

Over the last 30 years, I've read the Bible and Book of Mormon dozens of times. I've studied the Dead Sea Scrolls, and other ancient Jewish/Christian writings that help us understand the Bible and its teachings. Please do not pretend to tell me what the Book of Mormon does or doesn't say, as I am more aware of it and what is in the Bible, than you, as demonstrated by your statements.

Perhaps the anti-Mormon books you've read have not mentioned your concern, because they did not interpret the Book of Mormon as you claim you have. It isn't an issue to them, because the Book of Mormon matches the Bible on these issues.

And I invite you, as someone who seems to want to love the Lord, to accept his whole word, and not just a few fragments of it that your pastor and some anti-Mormon websites attempt to teach you.

[Whynot]

No Christian of any denomination I'm aware of would say that the 'golden rule' is not a teaching of Jesus, however, if one opens to one of the gospels or even Revelation and account from the recorded words of Jesus Christ, it is impossible to say that love of God or love of fellow man or recognition of the love which God has for the individual does not hang upon each of His commandments/doctrines. It's as Jesus said, 'My doctrine is not my own,' it was from God the Father. There are hundreds, but each centers in love as Jesus defined it. Look at the value Jesus placed on keeping His words. In fact, He said if we love Him we will keep His words.

I know LDS don't do this, but just to make a point, some teach love as the end all commandment of Jesus. This opens the door to things such as support of homosexual marriage under the guise of love and that they just want love and Jesus taught love and tolerance, so it's the Christian thing to support. Well, if it were not for the commandments of God telling us what is right and wrong that we might be deceived due to our ignorance of the commandments of God. Jesus affirmed the Law, Prophets and Psalms. The great commission is about discipleship to the Lord Himself.

The issue is being true to what has been revealed by the Son and abiding in those things.

You might do a quick check between the BOM and the sermon on the mount in Matthew 5-7. Then consider the rest of His doctrine in the gospels and the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

As Micah 6 says, God has shown us what is good - and I believe the greatest witness of this is in the Son.

Edited November 28, 2010 by Whynot

[Whynot]

The problem with this is, you are way off. In 2 Nephi 31, Nephi teaches that the Doctrine of Christ is: faith in Christ, repentance, baptism, and receiving the Holy Ghost.

In 3 Nephi 11, we see the same thing. Yes, Christ tells the people to follow the apostles, as they are the ones Christ set apart to teach and guide them after he left. What did they teach? Faith in Christ, repentance, and obedience - exactly what Peter, Paul, and the other apostles taught in the Bible. So, this is the exact same pattern we find in the Bible. Are you suggesting that the Bible is false, because it matches the Bible in this?

Paul taught that the foundation of the Church is made up of "apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone" (Ephesians 2). Clearly, Christ thought it important for people to follow apostles, otherwise he would not have given the priesthood power and authority to guide the Church.

I would be very surprised to learn you had actually read the Book of Mormon. Your responses show you really do not understand the Bible, as you do not quote it, nor do you clearly explain your understanding of the Bible. Nor do you understand the Book of Mormon, as you have shown in your statements.

Over the last 30 years, I've read the Bible and Book of Mormon dozens of times. I've studied the Dead Sea Scrolls, and other ancient Jewish/Christian writings that help us understand the Bible and its teachings. Please do not pretend to tell me what the Book of Mormon does or doesn't say, as I am more aware of it and what is in the Bible, than you, as demonstrated by your statements.

Perhaps the anti-Mormon books you've read have not mentioned your concern, because they did not interpret the Book of Mormon as you claim you have. It isn't an issue to them, because the Book of Mormon matches the Bible on these issues.

And I invite you, as someone who seems to want to love the Lord, to accept his whole word, and not just a few fragments of it that your pastor and some anti-Mormon websites attempt to teach you.

Well, thanks, I guess, but I really believe your take on me is off base. I don't base my faith on what my 'pastor' says, or books by others. I'm speaking about what Jesus Christ Himself taught in the recorded Scriptures, and He said His words are imperishable and that they can be understood and are plainly evident to anyone who does them.

Jesus is a living Prophet - to this very day:-)

Wouldn't you agree?

The Chief Cornerstone sets the alignment of the building- so we need to realize what we believe and do and build is to be based from His word and life and faith in the truth He spoke and witnessed from above.

[rameumptom]

Well, thanks, I guess, but I really believe your take on me is off base. I don't base my faith on what my 'pastor' says, or books by others. I'm speaking about what Jesus Christ Himself taught in the recorded Scriptures, and He said His words are imperishable and that they can be understood and are plainly evident to anyone who does them.

Jesus is a living Prophet - to this very day:-)

Wouldn't you agree?

The Chief Cornerstone sets the alignment of the building- so we need to realize what we believe and do and build is to be based from His word and life and faith in the truth He spoke and witnessed from above.

Yes, Jesus is a living Prophet today, among other things. However, he also set the pattern on how he usually works with mankind: through living prophets and apostles (see Amos 3:7).

The problem with just relying upon the Bible (which is NOT living words, but inspired words written down thousands of years ago), is that even with Jesus' words, there is disagreement on what he meant. You even mentioned that some take his two great commandments and twist them to mean we should accept homosexuality. Obviously, they are not as clear as one would hope.

For this reason we continue having living prophets and apostles to guide us in the true understanding of Christ's gospel. And we need them until we all "come unto a unity of faith" in Christ. Christ IS the chief cornerstone. Yet without the rest of the foundation, the building cannot stand. And the rest of the foundation is made up of apostled and prophets. (Eph 2, 4).

[Whynot]

Yes, Jesus is a living Prophet today, among other things. However, he also set the pattern on how he usually works with mankind: through living prophets and apostles (see Amos 3:7).

The problem with just relying upon the Bible (which is NOT living words, but inspired words written down thousands of years ago), is that even with Jesus' words, there is disagreement on what he meant. You even mentioned that some take his two great commandments and twist them to mean we should accept homosexuality. Obviously, they are not as clear as one would hope.

For this reason we continue having living prophets and apostles to guide us in the true understanding of Christ's gospel. And we need them until we all "come unto a unity of faith" in Christ. Christ IS the chief cornerstone. Yet without the rest of the foundation, the building cannot stand. And the rest of the foundation is made up of apostled and prophets. (Eph 2, 4).

The apostles wrote of the gospel as being delivered 'once for all', and we know from John the baptist that Jesus alone came to testify the very words of God from heaven. Jesus also identified that the prophets were until John the baptist, and from then on the kingdom of God is preached and that the least in the kingdom of God is greater than the greatest of the prophets. That is what Jesus said.

Jesus also said His words are living and able to make us clean. He also said they were eternal and imperishable. Jesus said He is to be our Teacher and that all of us are but brethren. Jesus commanded making disciples of Him, baptizing them, and teaching them to oberserve whatever He had commanded them (the eyewitness disciples who became apostles). They recorded His words from Matthew through Revelation.

Did Jesus say we are to follow whatever He said, and not be hearers only, but also doers of His word? That's what He said from the beginning of preaching the doctrine of God - do whatsoever He said. This is reaffirmed in John 15-17, as well as Acts 3:22,23.

That millions of 'christians' ignore the teachings of the Son of God for desire to hear lessor things from anyone else is a matter of people seeking the light of the Lord, or deliberately noting facing up to the truth He gave, or not taking the time to really consider and ponder the words of eternal life that Jesus spoke. Only God is able to really open a persons eyes to His will, but a person has to really want to know what God wants - if he seeks, he will find it.

[ryanh]

Jesus also said His words are living and able to make us clean. He also said they were eternal and imperishable.

One thing that would greatly help in having a dialog that led to understanding would be to not use jargon that is not understood by the other point of view.

"Imperishable" never appears in our King James version of the bible. Nor I have ever heard it used in relation to the Savior's teachings. It would appear to me that you are assigning thought and theology within that word that are lost on an LDS audience. Without using more specifics than generalities, not much is to be gained through such discourse.

Honestly . . . To me, your entire last post is so general that I can only guess at what you are truly trying to convey. Are you trying to infer that by the existence of a living prophet, LDS are "desir[ing] to hear lessor [sic] things" (i.e. ignore Christ)? Or "deliberately noting [sic] facing up to the truth He gave"? Is that your point, to try to prove LDS are following after false christs?

[Whynot]

We continue reading and we come to verse 15 where Christ says that if we truly do love him, we will keep his commandments. What are Christ's commandments? 1) Love the Lord your God with all your heart, might, mind and strength; and 2) Love your neighbor as yourself.

Whynot: Jesus gave many commandments, and they all hang from one or the other of the two you mentioned here, but there are many which procede from these. We can each go to the gospel accounts and read the teachings of Jesus and note all His commandments - there are more than 2, let alone more than 200. Not that I'm thinking whoever has the biggest list wins, but don't you think in light of the great commission that more attention be spent on discipleship to Jesus? Just a thought.

..................

If we are grafted into Christ, we are therefore prudent to bring forth good fruit (Faith + Works, the latter being evidence of our faith). 3) Verses 26-27 is Christ's concluding remarks on the Sermon on the Mount. Chapter 7 of the Gospel of Matthew is the final teaching on the sermon on the mount. So, verses 26-27 where Christ says that every man who builds his house on the rock is symbolic of everyone who builds their testimony and life on Jesus Christ. He is the foundation, the chief cornerstone and therefore we ought to follow his example in both word and deed.

Inaccurate. The Book of Mormon actually does testify that we are to continue in Christ's word, fashion our lives after Christ, and submit our will over to the Father. We are to walk in humility and obedience. This is throughout the course of the Book of Mormon.

Whynot: Well, when I read it and the record of Jesus speaking to the people was specifically noted, there may have been 70 or 80 points of doctrine that could be categorized as a 'command', but there were also some significant shifts. The reason I quoted so much of what Jesus said about what He taught and the need to abide in His word is that is the primary difference between the book of Mormon and the Bible. The Book of Mormon has Jesus preaching about half the sermon on the mount and then telling the people to listen to their prophets/apostles. Some teachings Jesus was recorded in the Bible as preaching to everyone, in the book of Mormon He only spoke to the apostles. I thought that was odd.

I agree with most everything you said though. Thanks for your response!

[Whynot]

One thing that would greatly help in having a dialog that led to understanding would be to not use jargon that is not understood by the other point of view.

"Imperishable" never appears in our King James version of the bible. Nor I have ever heard it used in relation to the Savior's teachings. It would appear to me that you are assigning thought and theology within that word that are lost on an LDS audience. Without using more specifics than generalities, not much is to be gained through such discourse.

Honestly . . . To me, your entire last post is so general that I can only guess at what you are truly trying to convey. Are you trying to infer that by the existence of a living prophet, LDS are "desir[ing] to hear lessor [sic] things" (i.e. ignore Christ)? Or "deliberately noting [sic] facing up to the truth He gave"? Is that your point, to try to prove LDS are following after false christs?

Whynot: I used the New King James version when doing my study. The KJV is a translation, and a specific version of a translation and has changed a number of times since it was first translated. As I've heard many LDS say, they believe the Bible as correctly translated, so I don't expect you believe any differently than that. Many people prefer the KJV.

Luke 21:33 says (KJV) "Heaven and earth shall pass awy; but My words shall not pass away."

If Jesus gave them, the apostles recorded them, then we have those doctrines and commandments of the Lord that were spoken of in the great commission, in the sermon on the mount, as well as the account in Acts of the start of the Church at Pentecost and the promise of God to all generations to come, as well as the careful note to quote Moses regarding Jesus in Acts 3:22,23.

I'm actually happy to know that LDS believe we are to keep His commandments. Most Christains think if you believe that you've fallen from grace, as they understand it, but they must not put much value on the words of the Lord vs what they think Paul taught in a couple of places.

I'm just saying there is a lot more to abiding in the words of the Lord than I've understood the LDS to say. (word of wisdom, etc.)

We can even find commands of Jesus in Revelation - such as the command to persevere. There we find Jesus judging by works - which most protestants don't want to acknowledge either.

[rameumptom]

Whynot, I don't disagree with your thoughts that we must follow the words of Jesus. However, I also believe we should not limit the words of Jesus to the 4 Gospels, either. Jesus spoke through prophets anciently. He told Noah to build the ark. He told Moses to lead Israel out of Egypt. Through Isaiah, he prophesied of his own birth, life, and atonement. Through Peter, Jesus opened the gospel to the Gentiles.

If we were to limit ourselves to only Jesus' mortal words in the 4 gospels, then the gospel would be limited only to the Jews. Jesus himself told the apostles not to teach the Gentiles, but only preach to the tribes of Israel. Without additional revelation through a prophet/apostle, we would not have the Bible for all Gentiles to appreciate.

And in our day, the Lord follows his pattern of speaking to mankind through prophets and apostles. These inspired men then tell us what it is that God wants us to do in these last days, in preparation for the 2nd Coming. This includes commandments, the importance of repentance, faith and obedience, etc.

For those who follow the teachings of Jesus in the Bible, they are blessed. For those who follow the teachings of Jesus in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and modern prophets, they are even more blessed, for they have more of the living words of Jesus Christ.

[Whynot]

I agree that Jesus spoke beyond the four gospel accounts. His teachings go into Acts as well, and there are a few things in the other books, then there is a large amount of teachings and commandments in Revelation. In fact, the teachings of Jesus in Revelation largely refute the false gospel taught by many modern liberal churches.

When I made my account of His teachings it surprized me so much that I came up with my web site because of being convinced and convicted to the truth Jesus taught and realizing that there isn't a Church I know of on earth that sees the facts as He gave them.

LDS honor the principle in your Sacrament prayer, and it's refreshing to see that someone sees the need - I just want to point out that there is much more in the records of the Bible that need to be part of our life as a disciple of the Jesus Christ. It seems very fitting that LDS would re investigate the depth of His teachings in the Bible as well, rather than deny them as most do. Just sharing what I've found - one disciple to another - that's where I got my web page name.

One Disciple to Another

If I'm wrong, it should be fairly simple to refute. It's either there or it isn't!

Thanks for sharing!

[rameumptom]

I think we agree on many things. One difference is that we believe in continuing revelation of Christ through living prophets and apostles. They can restore many things that have been lost. You also seem to believe that the Bible has some problems with at least some of its writings. We don't toss out the entire book, simply because errors crept in, or it is incomplete in some things.

We focus on the truths contained therein. But we also seek God's current revelation through modern prophets to teach us the things that even many Bible scholars today are starting to recognize have been lost from the Bible's original teachings due to periods of apostasy amongst the Jews, and later by the Christians.

[Guest DeborahC]

The Trojan War was a myth until Troy was discovered.

Many Biblical places have just been discovered in my lifetime.

There are many places yet to be discovered under earth, rain forest, and water.

------------

From the Internet, a few discoveries from "not so long ago.":

Up until the early 19th century, no archeological evidence had ever been found to prove that Nineveh existed. In fact very little was known about the Assyrian empire outside of the Bible

record. Skeptics sneered, claiming Nineveh belonged to the age of fables and was no more a real

city than Camelot.

The first reported archaeological excavation of Babylon was conducted by Claudius James Rich (shown below) in 1811-12 and again in 1817

Egypt says an ancient city from 3,500 years ago – at the height of the Jewish People’s enslavement there – has been discovered by radar. The announcement was made by the Egyptian Ministry of Culture.

BBC reports that Austrian archaeologists used radar imaging to find the underground outlines of the city, located in the now densely-populated Nile Delta area.

The city is believed to be Avaris, the summer capital of the Hyksos people, foreign occupiers who ruled Egypt for about a century, beginning around the mid-17th century BCE. It was during that time that the Children of Israel began their sojourn in Egypt, which continued later with a “new king who did not know Joseph” (Exodus 1:8), enslavement, and later, the miraculous Exodus.

-----------

In regard to your other question, I think good answers have been posted.

In choosing between the Baptists and the LDS Church, all I can say is this:

I left the Baptist Church when a Baptist friend asked to use MY house to talk to some Mormon Missionaries. What she did not tell me was that they knew her and refused to go to her home. She had no interest at all in hearing their message... her goal was to entrap them in arguments and tell them how wrong they were.

Once I saw what she was up to I was horrified, and after I excused myself from her and from the Baptist church, I asked the missionaries to return and I joined the church.

I have never seen LDS Missionaries use underhanded tactics to trap unsuspecting prospects.

I have never heard LDS people in charge slam the beliefs of others.

In the end,

"By their fruit shall you know them."

The fruit of this Church is good ..

[Whynot]

I hear you Deborah. My web site was largely started as an accounting in prep of LDS accounting of the teachings of Jesus in the BOM vs Bible. What I discovered was the greatest thing possible - that discipleship and doing what Jesus told us is the gospel message. And how many Baptists or other evangelical branches teach it's just inviting Jesus into your heart and not real action is necessary?

No, the truth that Jesus gave matters. Keeping His commandments - in fact, whatever He taught - is our part of the gospel, that we grow to be more like Him by faith in hearing and obedience to Him as our Lord and Savior and King - thereby we are His 'mother, brother and sister' when we seek to do the will of God - not just hear it:-)

[Gramajane]

For any who wish for answers to anti challenges to LDS

go to the F.A.I.R web site for tons of well documented and scholarly answers.

-- to go to your MAIN point about not being able to go to a place mentioned in the BofM

when we can to to Bible sites--

please remember how long the Bible has been around compared to the BofM

and also what % want to even look for such sites of either

--- lets us level the playing field a bit ok?

also on fair, you can see how MUCH of what was originally thought great mistakes in the BofM

have with time and archeological discoveries now proven to actually be counted great proofs!

--- take the place Bountiful, where Nephi built the ship to take them to the promised land--

it was thought until VERY recent years that there was NO PLACE that had trees, fruit, a harbor and even ore to make tools anyplace from the area where they took off from--

NOW a place has been found that has ALL the points and it is right in line with the directions in the Bofm even to the place name where they buried Ishmael! check it out!

there are SOOO many archaeological proofs now,

like the cement building, etc etc. Have fun! But remember it the the Holy Spirit that brings us to all truth! Gramajane

[prisonchaplain]

Trying to undermine anyone's religion with science is a dicey game. I remember thinking, as a 12-year old, that Christianity might just be myths that adults made up a long time ago, to get kids to behave. However, after a couple of minutes thinking on this, I concluded that no, there was just too much that has happened because of this religion, to think it all started by some guy's imagination.

Now the LDS faith, in some ways, is more susceptable to this line of questioning. It is much newer, after all. Further, it is an American born religion. "Can anything good come from America?" On the other hand, as Gramajane points out, there have been some scientific findings that bolster the BoM stories. Further, LDS can point to Scientology and suggest that the Church is much more substantial than that one.

Along come the materialists, who bases their worldview on objective science, and they will see no distinction. All the religions require faith in events and beings that cannot be verified.

Besides all that...how many of us are truly well enough versed in any particular science to either reject outright or pronounce as ordained any particular religion. Ultimately, Romans 1 suggests that nature itself proclaims that God is. If Paul is right, then we can indeed expect to find him, if we open our hearts. And, if we do find him, he will surely lead us where we need to go.

[Gramajane]

Actually I believe that LDS is much easier to substantiate because the Lord required Joseph Smith to keep a written history and what was happening was also written in members journals, which they were also asked to keep. MUCH of this has been put on the internet FREE for others to pursue- while many churches have no such written records of their beginnings, and some even seem to disclaim their beginnings. One example is that if I remember right (please correct me if I am wrong!!!) that The Watch Tower Society was the original name of Jehovhas Witnesses? Humm-- maybe I should go see if there is any JW on here to let them speak to this?

I feel that if we seek with all our hearts, we will find God,

and in the mean time, we just need to live by the best we know to do

and in this we will be ok. :)

Well, I suppose that LDS think this because we believe in the Bible documented baptism FOR the dead, so those who died but would have been baptized had they had a chance, HAVE a chance to accept (or reject) the work done for them by proxy by the living.

some churches say that they are just dammed to hell if not baptized

some others say there is no need for any water immersion baptism

some others say it takes no special priesthood authority to baptize another

(I understand that in the dark ages someone who was not even a Christian themselves was allowed to baptize someone else into the church of that time, and then of course there was when sprinkling instead of full immersion in the water was begun- I understand when some king wanted to wait till the last possible time to be sure he would be clean- but he waited so long that there wasn't time so they just sprinkled water on him?

I think that the best way is to look at the flow of the whole Bible and search for what matches the pattern. There is a list that was compiled by some college students before the last world war. They called it Seventeen Points of the True Church. They (four of them) were not all of the same faith and one had even been a born again but lost his faith, when his whole family was killed in a tornado when in the very act of prayer for protection. They used the bible to compile the list and then went to the churches to find what matched, but hadn't found any when war took them into the service. Many years after the war they over time found each other (but the born again had died in the war) and they had all joined the same church.

Some have said that LDS just made up the whole thing and list to fit only LDS, but that is not true, as we would have had a LOT more points! ;0. Yorganson and Youganson later wrote a book titled The Quest, which they BASED on the true story, but added a girl and other elements not in the true happenings, -- but my point was that at the end of their book they have an appendage, where some LDS has made a list of points for a church to have to be the true church.

Anyway- that is one way to search, but it is important to "go to the source!"

You don't ONLY ask a Subaru dealer to tell you about the Ford car you are considering.

We at least need to let a knowledgeable member in good standing with the church, or the missionaries have a chance to teach us and answer our questions or go to LDS.org or Mormon.org .

May we all continually be open to truth and "prove all things, hold fast that which is good". Gramajane

[Whynot]

Years ago I used to frequent a particular message board that relied heavily on F.A.I.R. to support the LDS Church. Perhaps some materials are good, but others may be less convincing to someone who is not a member. The same could be said for any apologetic site that approaches the subject of Jesus Christ from a particular viewpoint. When I reviewed some of the material it was not nearly as convincing or authoritative as I've found in the teachings of the Lord Jesus Himself - and this is said in regard to both LDS and non-LDS sites that are about LDS or their own Church.

If the LDS Church does indeed preach and teach Jesus Christ - more power to them, as more people need to hear what Jesus taught that they be convinced to become His disciple based upon what He taught, and that discipleship first calls for being baptized into His name for the reasons of the very promise of God, as recorded by Peter, and continual followup in discipleship to whatever He taught as a life long experience.

Going through all the commandments and doctrines of the Lord, we can see that in the sermon on the mount (Matthew 5-7) that He made a point about specifically keeping them specifically that He had just given. Because of this I find it particularly important to hear and do those teachings recorded by Matthew instead of the Book of Mormon account, which is less than the other account. I believe all His words are most important.

7:21-26 (from the Aramaic English New Testament by Netzari Press LLC

"It will not be that just anyone who says to me "My master, my master!" will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but whoever does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, "My master, my master! By your name have we not prophesied? And by your name have we cast out demons? And by your name have we done many miracles?" And then I will profess to them that from everlasting, I have not known you. Depart from me, you workers of iniquity! Anyone, therefore, who hears my words, these, and does them, will be likened to a wise man who built his house upon a stone. And descended the rain, and came the rivers, and blew the winds, and they beat on the house and it did not fall, for its foundation was laid upon a stone. And anyone who hears my words, these, and does them not, will be likened to a foolish man that built his house upon sand. And descended the rain, and came the rivers, and blew the winds, and they beat on the house and it fell, and its fall was great."

So if you prophesied in His name, cast out demons in His name, and performed miracles in His name, even that proves not a wink that you are right in His eyes. Each of us will be judged as individuals, so I'd rather base my faith and life upon what Jesus said than what anyone else claims to be the truth, since we have the words of the Lord in the Bible - do we need them in another book if that other book doesn't give us the whole, or best, account of them?

Each takes inventory with their budget and money to make sure the money is in the bank to purchase what they need or want. Why would we do less with the words of Jesus?

[Whynot]

Whynot, I don't disagree with your thoughts that we must follow the words of Jesus. However, I also believe we should not limit the words of Jesus to the 4 Gospels, either. Jesus spoke through prophets anciently. He told Noah to build the ark. He told Moses to lead Israel out of Egypt. Through Isaiah, he prophesied of his own birth, life, and atonement. Through Peter, Jesus opened the gospel to the Gentiles.

If we were to limit ourselves to only Jesus' mortal words in the 4 gospels, then the gospel would be limited only to the Jews. Jesus himself told the apostles not to teach the Gentiles, but only preach to the tribes of Israel. Without additional revelation through a prophet/apostle, we would not have the Bible for all Gentiles to appreciate.

And in our day, the Lord follows his pattern of speaking to mankind through prophets and apostles. These inspired men then tell us what it is that God wants us to do in these last days, in preparation for the 2nd Coming. This includes commandments, the importance of repentance, faith and obedience, etc.

For those who follow the teachings of Jesus in the Bible, they are blessed. For those who follow the teachings of Jesus in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and modern prophets, they are even more blessed, for they have more of the living words of Jesus Christ.

At the beginning of the ministry Jesus commanded the disciples to go to the Jews only, but at the end His commandment was to go to the ends of the earth 'Go ye unto all the world' and that they were His chosen witnesses of what the gospel He preached was and that the Holy Spirit would enable them to remember everything He had taught them. So I largely agree with your remarks, but do feel a need to clarify that Jesus told them to go to the Gentiles as well. As you mention, His teachings are beyond the four gospels, and an example of this was His telling Peter via vision to take the gospel to the Gentiles, as what God had declared to be clean was clean and Peter was not to judge the command of God.

I wish more Evangelicals would realize His further epistles in Revelation that prove without a doubt that salvation is not found when we don't abide in whatever He commanded - and the book ends about being judged by our works - how odd that they teach against LDS for thinking what we do do matters. This just shows too much about what and who they believe - unfortunately.

[Whynot]

Trying to undermine anyone's religion with science is a dicey game. I remember thinking, as a 12-year old, that Christianity might just be myths that adults made up a long time ago, to get kids to behave. However, after a couple of minutes thinking on this, I concluded that no, there was just too much that has happened because of this religion, to think it all started by some guy's imagination.

Now the LDS faith, in some ways, is more susceptable to this line of questioning. It is much newer, after all. Further, it is an American born religion. "Can anything good come from America?" On the other hand, as Gramajane points out, there have been some scientific findings that bolster the BoM stories. Further, LDS can point to Scientology and suggest that the Church is much more substantial than that one.

Along come the materialists, who bases their worldview on objective science, and they will see no distinction. All the religions require faith in events and beings that cannot be verified.

Besides all that...how many of us are truly well enough versed in any particular science to either reject outright or pronounce as ordained any particular religion. Ultimately, Romans 1 suggests that nature itself proclaims that God is. If Paul is right, then we can indeed expect to find him, if we open our hearts. And, if we do find him, he will surely lead us where we need to go.

I don't think this was taught by the Lord. He specifically said we can know if what He taught was from God that we could know by doing what He taught. This provides the most powerful witness man can attain - the confirmation of God to the teachings of Jesus Christ as being directly from the Father.

To base our faith on a lessor witness - well, it's just that - a lessor witness.

"If you abide in My words, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."

I've found these to be true, but it did feel a bit weird to take a teaching of Jesus and specifically keep it for a while - solely based upon His word, because He said so, but in no time at all I understood and have been growing by His words ever since!:-)

[Gramajane]

Of course Jesus words take precedince.

It was only when others seem not content with them and cite "scientific" comparisons that are already answered on FAIR so they can SEE that the OLD lists by anti have been answered years before etc that I reference FAIR.

--- when specific topics ( like the "one can drive to this Bible site but to no BofM site,

that's something I have seen in anti works or "how to wittness to Mormons"

that I give them the answer to what supposedly they ask for.

--- I do not like to confront anybody with that maybe they are not being as genuine as they might be to actually come out and say

--- hey can you guys answer this list of challenges??

--- and I could be wrong just MAYBE they did come up with that issue on their own, quite unlikely to my view - but possible and I like to always give the benefit of any doubt :)

--- So, if the want to bring up topics that are not doctrine and can't be answered by doctrine still having TRUE facts MIGHT bring them to a place where they are willing to listen to JESUS words in the BIBLE and the MORE found in the BofM plus Gids words to us through our living prophet.

Yes --- "if any will DO my works... " then they will be so close to the light that they will recognize the source and light in the BofM and other Latter-day scriptures too!

May Gid bless us and help us gain more light, knowledge and joy by obeying the commandments and becoming more like Christ.

Gramajane