converts leaving the church

[Guest mirancs8]

Now I can see that. And I also have the flipside.

I love my VT and HTs. Problem is, I have one visiting teacher who thinks it's okay to call me every sunday I miss church and blurt out, "I didn't see you in church today, why weren't you there?"

I let it go for a long time this last year, but then it got to where I felt she was expecting me to be accountable to her for my attendance. And though I'm sure she didn't realize, it was intrusive. But I adore her. So I gave her a basket of lavender from my gardens, wrote a lovely note telling her how much I love and appreciate her. That I must ask her however to stop calling every time. (lately its been six weeks with my fibro and now my ruptured disc).

LOL!!! I have been just laughing at this post wondering if I should dare to respond, because I had admitting that I do this I don't ask over and over again but someone I know well I will admit I'll touch base with them at some point during the week.

I don't do it to be annoying I do it out of concern. I have people who will do the same thing to me, and I've never gotten bothered by it. The one day I didn't make it to church when I returned from a long road trip, after church I got a few phone calls and even someone stopped by my house with rice crispy treats I can see though how it could bother others.

I love that you gave her a basket of lavender from your garden... very thoughtful of you!

[Cassiopeia]

LOL!!! I have been just laughing at this post wondering if I should dare to respond, because I had admitting that I do this I don't ask over and over again but someone I know well I will admit I'll touch base with them at some point during the week.

I don't do it to be annoying I do it out of concern. I have people who will do the same thing to me, and I've never gotten bothered by it. The one day I didn't make it to church when I returned from a long road trip, after church I got a few phone calls and even someone stopped by my house with rice crispy treats I can see though how it could bother others.

I love that you gave her a basket of lavender from your garden... very thoughtful of you!

Well for me, because I've only been back a year since being gone for 7 years, it feels like pressure and I'm the sort that I'll just leave. The thing is, now she's not talking to me at all. *rolls eyes* Which is her loss. If she wants to be put out because I prefer not to be pressured into church attendance then she can request to visit a new sister.

[FunkyTown]

Well for me, because I've only been back a year since being gone for 7 years, it feels like pressure and I'm the sort that I'll just leave. The thing is, now she's not talking to me at all. *rolls eyes* Which is her loss. If she wants to be put out because I prefer not to be pressured into church attendance then she can request to visit a new sister.

Cassi? Have you considered that, when you say things like:

Well for me, because I've only been back a year since being gone for 7 years, it feels like pressure and I'm the sort that I'll just leave.

It shows that you're just as easily offended as the VT you claim is avoiding you?

I would just make sure your VT knows how much you love her. She may not be avoiding you, but simply feel that you are being smothered by her attention. She might be backing off because you asked her to. I would, and that wouldn't be because I was offended that someone asked me to stop doing something.

It would be because you have admitted yourself that you're the type that you will simply stop coming if you feel pressured. I wouldn't want to be the one who contributing to your decision to become inactive.

[hordak]

I was surprised to learn that a good number of converts don't stay converted. Some anti-Mormons use this info to refute the Church's membership numbers or that people finally 'wake up' and realize that Mormonism isn't what they thought.

The reason so many "anti" mormons use numbers against the churches truth claim is that many members use church numbers as an indication of truth. There was a quote back in the day about how no one could stop the church and some have taken this to mean growth.

So my question for today is twofold: Do you think it's true that many converts leave, and if so why? It takes a lot to change one's religion; why would one go through all of that just to leave the Church? I guess I'm looking for possible landmines.

There are many reasons others have touched upon. One i would add is "milk before meat"/ church history. The church has a "colorful history" (not anymore "odd" then religion or other churches in general) that isn't really taught in an official capacity. Some members, even life long members only find out about things from other sources and "feel lied to" or read it out of context. There has been an effort to "inoculate" members recently (Faithful member Richard bushman wrote a history of Joseph Smith, the church is working on the Joseph Smith papers etc.) and i think this will help.

I would also say there is not a lot to go through to convert. Some religions (Judaism IIRC) require a year of study /practice before conversion. Other churches have mandatory classes that must be taken. I have seen Missionaries asking people to set baptism dates on the second visit.

Second, considering how America-focused the Church is, to what do you ascribe the growth of the Church world-wide? Why would an African or Latin American want to be a Mormon? As a former Catholic, I find it amazing that so many in the Catholic countries have left the Church and become Protestant. When I was growing up, we used to pray for the conversion of the world back to Catholicism; it is very hard to imagine people leaving in such large numbers to become Protestant, and yet they do.

Don't fall into the "Church growth= truth" trap. Wicca is actually the fastest growing religion if your looking for the "popular vote":)

If your looking to avoid pitfall i would say.

1. Know that church leaders, past and present are human,

2 Know that not everything that doesn't come from the church is a lie. Much of the"anti" Mormon "propaganda" is based on some truth. It will be unofficial, it will be slanted, but that doesn't mean it's not"true" to some extent

Most important

3. Rely on the spirit

[Cassiopeia]

Cassi? Have you considered that, when you say things like:

It shows that you're just as easily offended as the VT you claim is avoiding you?

I would just make sure your VT knows how much you love her. She may not be avoiding you, but simply feel that you are being smothered by her attention. She might be backing off because you asked her to. I would, and that wouldn't be because I was offended that someone asked me to stop doing something.

It would be because you have admitted yourself that you're the type that you will simply stop coming if you feel pressured. I wouldn't want to be the one who contributing to your decision to become inactive.

This is the way with internet discussions. It's never easy to get the entire story across.

The problem is, I'm not offended. I was made uncomfortable because I felt she was overstepping her boundaries. In the past I let those things slide and I always felt it was inappropriate. My feelings are, if I intend to stay, I'm going to make sure that I have my life the way I want it and no one is allowed to pressure me in such an inappropriate way. I let people chase me away last time. Not again.

And I didn't go inactive. I left the church. I am still figuring out if this is where I want to be but I'll be here because I want to be not because I'm forced to.

[FunkyTown]

And I didn't go inactive. I left the church. I am still figuring out if this is where I want to be but I'll be here because I want to be not because I'm forced to.

The thing is, Cassi: You aren't being forced to when she asks where you were. She's letting you know that she cares and checking up so she knows how best to help you.

That's what Visiting Teachers do.

[Guest]

This is the way with internet discussions. It's never easy to get the entire story across.

The problem is, I'm not offended. I was made uncomfortable because I felt she was overstepping her boundaries. In the past I let those things slide and I always felt it was inappropriate. My feelings are, if I intend to stay, I'm going to make sure that I have my life the way I want it and no one is allowed to pressure me in such an inappropriate way. I let people chase me away last time. Not again.

And I didn't go inactive. I left the church. I am still figuring out if this is where I want to be but I'll be here because I want to be not because I'm forced to.

What works for me is to say "I forgive" without waiting for "I'm sorry". The thing is the VT's and HT's and any other active church member in the ward is just trying to do the best they can the way they know how following in Jesus Christ's footsteps while wallowing in their own weaknesses. People can't chase you away if you are always ready to forgive them for their weakenesses especially if the intention is pure.

[Cassiopeia]

The thing is, Cassi: You aren't being forced to when she asks where you were. She's letting you know that she cares and checking up so she knows how best to help you.

That's what Visiting Teachers do.

No, Visiting Teachers aren't to phone the ladies they visit every single time they don't see them at church. That's going too far. I know, I was one for many many years.

And you certainly don't call with the message, why weren't you at church today. And not ever single time someone misses. This isn't the church of coercion.

I already know she cares. We spent a lot of time together. But I know when someone's being bossy and it is all too convenient to just want to put this on my feelings when there are certainly people in the church who get too pushy about it. And I know she's offended because she hasn't been around or phoned to do her monthly visiting for July. She skipped it and she never misses. But that's going to have to be her issue, not mine. I'm certainly not angry with her just keeping my boundaries.

My home teachers are equally concerned but instead of phoning me every time I'm not there, when they come they ask if they can help and they know what's going on in my life. Right now, I have a home teacher in my yard fixing my sprinklers because he saw how my lawn was doing. He asked if he could help. He didn't just show up and fix them, he asked permission. It took a lot for me to accept his help. But I did because of how he approached me.

[Cassiopeia]

What works for me is to say "I forgive" without waiting for "I'm sorry". The thing is the VT's and HT's and any other active church member in the ward is just trying to do the best they can the way they know how following in Jesus Christ's footsteps while wallowing in their own weaknesses. People can't chase you away if you are always ready to forgive them for their weakenesses especially if the intention is pure.

You are assuming there's something to forgive. I simply have my boundaries. I'm not going to allow people to hound me like that. It's not appropriate.

I can't be chased away either if I live my life with respect to what I'm willing to allow.

[spamlds]

The reason so many "anti" mormons use numbers against the churches truth claim is that many members use church numbers as an indication of truth. There was a quote back in the day about how no one could stop the church and some have taken this to mean growth.

There are many reasons others have touched upon. One i would add is "milk before meat"/ church history. The church has a "colorful history" (not anymore "odd" then religion or other churches in general) that isn't really taught in an official capacity. Some members, even life long members only find out about things from other sources and "feel lied to" or read it out of context. There has been an effort to "inoculate" members recently (Faithful member Richard bushman wrote a history of Joseph Smith, the church is working on the Joseph Smith papers etc.) and i think this will help.

I would also say there is not a lot to go through to convert. Some religions (Judaism IIRC) require a year of study /practice before conversion. Other churches have mandatory classes that must be taken. I have seen Missionaries asking people to set baptism dates on the second visit.

Don't fall into the "Church growth= truth" trap. Wicca is actually the fastest growing religion if your looking for the "popular vote":)

This is all very good advice. Matthew chapter 13 says it so perfectly in the parable of the sower. It isn't the quality of the "seed" (the Word) that is questionable, it's the quality of the ground where the seed falls. Some people are too hardened to even consider looking for truth when it's presented. Others embrace it with enthusiasm, but they quit after facing trials, ridicule, persecution, etc. Others get caught up in worldly pursuits and the gospel gets crowded out of their lives. They mean well--they're not overtly wicked--they just dont' value the gospel enough to give it a high place in their list of priorities. Others will be faithful, bringing forth fruit in varying amounts. That's why people fall out of the Church once they've been in.

Note that the growth of ancient Christianity didn't really "explode" until after the apostles of Jesus were all dead and gone. Once the apostasy was complete, Satan let up on the opposition and it became fashionable to be a "Christian" in a church that no longer had revelators, keys of authority, etc.

[pam]

No, Visiting Teachers aren't to phone the ladies they visit every single time they don't see them at church. That's going too far. I know, I was one for many many years.

Is there a rule in the visiting teaching handbook that states this? I can't fault this lady. She is just trying to be a good visiting teacher in the way she knows how. Sometimes we just have to bite our tongues. I do it all the time on these forums.

[Cassiopeia]

Is there a rule in the visiting teaching handbook that states this? I can't fault this lady. She is just trying to be a good visiting teacher in the way she knows how. Sometimes we just have to bite our tongues. I do it all the time on these forums.

Actually we are counseled as members of the church to NOT overstep out boundaries. We are not to harass people into coming to church. I've heard it said in many a talk. Is it in a handbook? Somewhere I'm quite certain. And must we be commanded in all things? I would think it logical to be respective of people's boundaries. I took this up with my HT, when he was here. Asked him if my telling him and his companion that I will not accept Sunday visits and no wives coming in place of an Elder for the visit, offended him...his response, "Heck No...we are here to serve you, in the way that SERVES YOU."

She is a good VT. She isn't perfect. She sat here today with me for 2 hours after she heard of my trip to the ER last night. And things are back to normal.

What does your having to bite your tongue have to do with this topic?

You don't like what I share, put me on ignore, Pam. It's as simple as that.

Edited August 5, 2010 by Cassiopeia

[Dravin]

We are not to harass people into coming to church.

One person's harassment is another person's concern. It's not quite so clear cut as to where boundaries are. One person finds such behavior distasteful and another finds it touching and uplifting. Obviously once informed the behavior is unwanted one should respect the request but the blinking lights and warning sirens surrounding what you feel is such a clear violation of boundaries simply aren't there.

You don't like what I share, put me on ignore, Pam. It's as simple as that.

Giving orders to head moderators are we? Cheeky.

[Cassiopeia]

One person's harassment is another person's concern. It's not quite so clear cut as to where boundaries are. One person finds such behavior distasteful and another finds it touching and uplifting. Obviously once informed the behavior is unwanted one should respect the request but the blinking lights and warning sirens surrounding what you feel is such a clear violation of boundaries simply aren't there.

I'd already done my best to ignore her question when she'd ask them. It was obvious to me she noticed because she'd frown when I'd change the subject. That got me no where. And while it might not bother you, it did me.

[Suzie]

No, Visiting Teachers aren't to phone the ladies they visit every single time they don't see them at church. That's going too far. I know, I was one for many many years.

And you certainly don't call with the message, why weren't you at church today. And not ever single time someone misses. This isn't the church of coercion.

I already know she cares. We spent a lot of time together. But I know when someone's being bossy and it is all too convenient to just want to put this on my feelings when there are certainly people in the church who get too pushy about it. And I know she's offended because she hasn't been around or phoned to do her monthly visiting for July. She skipped it and she never misses. But that's going to have to be her issue, not mine. I'm certainly not angry with her just keeping my boundaries.

My home teachers are equally concerned but instead of phoning me every time I'm not there, when they come they ask if they can help and they know what's going on in my life. Right now, I have a home teacher in my yard fixing my sprinklers because he saw how my lawn was doing. He asked if he could help. He didn't just show up and fix them, he asked permission. It took a lot for me to accept his help. But I did because of how he approached me.

Oh wow so you have a faithful VT who you mentioned cares about you and calls you every single time she does not see you in Church AND amazing home teachers who besides going to your home and sharing the message also provide service by fixing your sprinklers! What a wonderful group of Saints!

I wish I had Visiting Teachers and Home Teachers like that! I suppose for many the glass is half empty but for others is half full.

Count your blessings!

[Cassiopeia]

Oh wow so you have a faithful VT who you mentioned cares about you and calls you every single time she does not see you in Church AND amazing home teachers who besides going to your home and sharing the message also provide service by fixing your sprinklers! What a wonderful group of Saints!

I wish I had Visiting Teachers and Home Teachers like that! I suppose for many the glass is half empty but for others is half full.

Count your blessings!

No, you don't wish you had VT and HT, that stepped over your boundaries of privacy. This might not be your hot button, but we all have them.

I love how you guys just jump down someone's throat because they speak out the truth. I dare to say, no, I don't want someone asking me EVERY time I'm not in church, why I wasn't there. My Home Teacher was not in anyway offended that I didn't want Sunday visits or wives coming in the place of an Elder.

I have no pretense. I am who I am and when my sisters have special requests, and I've had some, I've never been offended or felt slighted.

And heck yeah, we have a good group here in my ward, because we love and accept each other for who we are, quirks and all.

[Dravin]

I love how you guys just jump down someone's throat because they speak out the truth.

Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

Might want to tone down the martyr complex a tad.

[Dravin]

I love how you guys just jump down someone's throat because they speak out the truth.

Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

Might want to tone down the martyr complex a tad. It's possibly they simply disagree with you and not that they feel your bold speaking out of the "truth" must be suppressed. It's a standard reaction I notice, and I suppose I understand it as it puts one in a nice high horse to comfort themselves from but it also threatens many an optic nerve.

[Cassiopeia]

Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

Might want to tone down the martyr complex a tad.

Or maybe you guys could meet me somewhere in the middle and realize it can be oppressive when people get sarcastic about something I've shared. And make personal comments when we could be discussing WHY someone might find that oppressive when someone else finds it just want they want.

Talk about the topic, right? Not the poster. right?

You edited your post after I started mine. When I talk about "the truth" in my last post, I'm speaking my mind honestly. You guys got a problem with that? I'm not flaming anyone, I'm discussing what I find difficult to manage. But instead of talking about it, I get lectured.

And as much as it grows tiresome on your eyes, I get tired of the underlying tone of many posters that are filled with self-righteousness.

Edited August 5, 2010 by Cassiopeia

[Suzie]

No, you don't wish you had VT and HT, that stepped over your boundaries of privacy. This might not be your hot button, but we all have them.

Well like I said, I would like to have them. I know you don't feel the same way. :)

I love how you guys just jump down someone's throat because they speak out the truth.

Jumping down your throat? What truth do you speak? It's entirely your preference Cassiopeia and that's okay. However, does not mean it is necessarily the "truth" (the boundaries comment, it is your opinion and perception) and ours to disagree and that's okay too.

I dare to say, no, I don't want someone asking me EVERY time I'm not in church, why I wasn't there. My Home Teacher was not in anyway offended that I didn't want Sunday visits or wives coming in the place of an Elder.

I have no pretense. I am who I am and when my sisters have special requests, and I've had some, I've never been offended or felt slighted.

And heck yeah, we have a good group here in my ward, because we love and accept each other for who we are, quirks and all.

No need to justify your choice Cassiopeia. Like I said, it is okay for you to feel like that, it's your life. I just do not want you to feel people are "jumping down your throat" just because they disagree with your assessment. :)

[Suzie]

I get tired of the underlying tone of many posters that are filled with self-righteousness.

Maybe you should follow the advise you gave to Pam. You can use the ignore button.

[Cassiopeia]

Well like I said, I would like to have them. I know you don't feel the same way. :)

Jumping down your throat? What truth do you speak? It's entirely your preference Cassiopeia and that's okay. However, does not mean it is necessarily the "truth" (the boundaries comment, it is your opinion and perception) and ours to disagree and that's okay too.

No need to justify your choice Cassiopeia. Like I said, it is okay for you to feel like that, it's your life. I just do not want you to feel people are "jumping down your throat" just because they disagree with your assessment. :)

Now this is the way I'd like to approach this. I just don't like that approach, I adore her. It was hard for me to tell her how I felt and I did my best to soften that for her by telling her how I know she's so amazing and I love her.

Like I said, the truth of my honest feelings.

Sarcasm and lecture always feels like we are being jumped on.

[Suzie]

Now this is the way I'd like to approach this. I just don't like that approach, I adore her. It was hard for me to tell her how I felt and I did my best to soften that for her by telling her how I know she's so amazing and I love her.

Like I said, the truth of my honest feelings.

Probably she will come around and try to get in touch with you again maybe she won't.

Sarcasm and lecture always feels like we are being jumped on.

Honestly, I think you assume a lot about people's intentions. I put a thread about assumptions in the general board, you may find it interesting. I hope this doesn't count as "lecturing".

[Cassiopeia]

Probably she will come around and try to get in touch with you again maybe she won't.

Honestly, I think you assume a lot about people's intentions. I put a thread about assumptions in the general board, you may find it interesting. I hope this doesn't count as "lecturing".

Oh did you miss the post where I said she was here for 2 hours today, because I was in the ER last night?

We get on so well.

[pam]

Actually we are counseled as members of the church to NOT overstep out boundaries. We are not to harass people into coming to church. I've heard it said in many a talk. Is it in a handbook? Somewhere I'm quite certain. And must we be commanded in all things? I would think it logical to be respective of people's boundaries. I took this up with my HT, when he was here. Asked him if my telling him and his companion that I will not accept Sunday visits and no wives coming in place of an Elder for the visit, offended him...his response, "Heck No...we are here to serve you, in the way that SERVES YOU."

She is a good VT. She isn't perfect. She sat here today with me for 2 hours after she heard of my trip to the ER last night. And things are back to normal.

What does your having to bite your tongue have to do with this topic?

You don't like what I share, put me on ignore, Pam. It's as simple as that.

That I must ask her however to stop calling every time.

That's where I got my thoughts about biting tongues.

It was my opinion and my opinion only. Just because I might disagree on a certain part of your statement in no way means you have to listen to me. I just find it hypocritical that you spout off about being able to express opinion yet you criticize someone else for the same thing.

Honestly, there are a lot of people I'd like to put on ignore. But doing that would mean that I can't affectively do the job as moderator that I am paid the big bucks to do on this site.