An Understanding Of Apostates

[Aristotle]

We are going way off topic now, but since we seemed to have covered the writings of Cannon thoroughly, I will answer your post

We are still discussing apostacy! ;-)

[Guest Unorthodox]

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The difference between active LDS and inactive LDS is that active LDS have faith that all of the injustices in the world will be rectified in the hereafter. Living by faith, they continue on in the Church, realizing that some things cannot be explained or remedied here upon the earth.

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In this thread, I am just presenting what I consider to be a more complete picture of apostates...a picture that shows that while some might be sinners, others have just thought things through and do not consider the LDS Church to make logical sense. They are following the "dictates of their conscience".

In the process of thinking things through, many have lost their faith, which is truly sad.

The problem is, if they thought it through with the Spirit, they wouldn't have lost their testimonies. But we all know that if you think through, leaning to your own understanding, you will get lost. Millions have proved this to be true.

Well, if the Church is true, then these apostates are obviously not listening to the Spirit when they think things through.

(if the Church is not true, then there is not a problem)

The question is, what is causing them to question the Church?

If it is facts, then there is nothing wrong with examining facts. Censorship is wrong, because it robs us of our free agency to decide for ourselves if our faith is based on our own experiences or if it is just based on the family we were born into.

I would think most LDS do not like to think that they have a testimony only because they were "raised to believe".

If the Church has nothing to hide, all facts should be available. "Anti" material should not be censored, especially if it is true. If it is lies, then it needs to be discussed openly and discredited.

Keeping all the ideas out in the open will keep people honest about their testimonies.

If a some people don't listen to the spirit (AS THEY HAVE BEEN TAUGHT TO DO), and apostacize, it is a regrettable loss.

Actually, taking into account that 99% of the world is already non-Mormon, the loss of these apostates will not make much difference to the population of the Church.

But we know that in the next life they will receieve the Gospel again (just as the other 99% non-LDS will get a chance)...because their first chance was spoiled by their confusion and therefore God will give them another chance, for God is good and fair.

The important thing is to keep discussion out in the open, hiding nothing and seeing who passes the test of faith. Then you will see who the REAL SAINTS are.

Real saints are not the people who were lucky enough to be born into an LDS family, and did what their parents told them to do (go to church, go on a mission, get married, pay tithing)...the real saints are people who can do all those things while subjecting their faith to a challenge and still keep their testimony!

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We are going way off topic now, but since we seemed to have covered the writings of Cannon thoroughly, I will answer your post

We are still discussing apostacy! ;-)

Oh, ok...good!

[Guest Syble]

Well, if the Church is true, then these apostates are obviously not listening to the Spirit when they think things through.

True

(if the Church is not true, then there is not a problem)

Since it is true, there is a problem.

The question is, what is causing them to question the Church?

Their own problems would be the answer to that.

If it is facts, then there is nothing wrong with examining facts. Censorship is wrong, because it robs us of our free agency to decide for ourselves if our faith is based on our own experiences or if it is just based on the family we were born into.

Wisdom sometimes dictates censorship, and those who can't abide the discresion of inspired leaders, are potential or actual apostates.

I would think most LDS do not like to think that they have a testimony only because they were "raised to believe".

Most know they have a substancial testmony regardless of their up bringing. Converts pove this daily.

If the Church has nothing to hide, all facts should be available. "Anti" material should not be censored, especially if it is true. If it is lies, then it needs to be discussed openly and discredited.

If God has nothing to hide, why does He leave so much hidden? You are acting like the kingdom of God is for the world and its rules to reign. Not so. It is a whole different ball game. Too bad the potential and actual apostates can't see how silly you appear to those of us who KNOW the church is true.

Keeping all the ideas out in the open will keep people honest about their testimonies.

What are you bringing to this table of honesty?

If a some people don't listen to the spirit (AS THEY HAVE BEEN TAUGHT TO DO), and apostacize, it is a regrettable loss.

Indeed.

Actually, taking into account that 99% of the world is already non-Mormon, the loss of these apostates will not make much difference to the population of the Church.

Well it is prophesied that Christ's church would be small and the Great and Abomiminable church is large. So be it.

But we know that in the next life they will receieve the Gospel again (just as the other 99% non-LDS will get a chance)...because their first chance was spoiled by their confusion and therefore God will give them another chance, for God is good and fair.Well, if the Church is true, then these apostates are obviously not listening to the Spirit when they think things through.

You will not get another chance if you have had it here. And you have. God knows.

The important thing is to keep discussion out in the open, hiding nothing and seeing who passes the test of faith. Then you will see who the REAL SAINTS are.

Tell it to the wind.

Real saints are not the people who were lucky enough to be born into an LDS family, and did what their parents told them to do (go to church, go on a mission, get married, pay tithing)...the real saints are people who can do all those things while subjecting their faith to a challenge and still keep their testimony!

Absolutely.

[sgallan]

Well it is prophesied that Christ's church would be small and the Great and Abomiminable church is large. So be it.

Perfect fit then..... I for one don't want to spend an eternity with most of the LDS.... or any other religious persuasion. And they sure as heck don't want anything to do with the likes of me.

[Palerider]

[Aristotle]

Well it is prophesied that Christ's church would be small and the Great and Abomiminable church is large. So be it.

The great and abominable church of the devil is evil and corrupt government. ;-)

[Jason]

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Well it is prophesied that Christ's church would be small and the Great and Abomiminable church is large. So be it.

The great and abominable church of the devil is evil and corrupt government. ;-)

Looks like someones been reading H Verlan Anderson.

In the process of thinking things through, many have lost their faith, which is truly sad.

[Aristotle]

[Ray]

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Btw, are you a Star Wars fan? I really like the 3rd episode, showing how Evil can be so persuasive.

And only a Sith deals in Absolutes...like saying that you know something absolutely, rather than simply saying that you have strong faith in that which cannot be known.

Hey Ray, does this mean that you're actually a Sith Lord instead of a Jedi like me?

Heh, it all depends on your perception, or how you see things, doesn't it. :)

(And btw, that was a rhetorical statement)

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Btw, are you a Star Wars fan? I really like the 3rd episode, showing how Evil can be so persuasive.

And only a Sith deals in Absolutes...like saying that you know something absolutely, rather than simply saying that you have strong faith in that which cannot be known.

Heh, but you are stating as an absolute truth that I really can't know anything.

And btw, I wasn't saying that you NEED to take a course in fundamental logic before, but that PERHAPS a course like that would help you. And since I have also taken that course, we seem to still need something else too.

Any ideas of what that might be?

(hint: I call it Faith, referring to an assurance from God)

[Ray]

If the Church has nothing to hide, all facts should be available. "Anti" material should not be censored, especially if it is true. If it is lies, then it needs to be discussed openly and discredited.

The true history of the Church IS available and open for public study, without the "anti" propaganda and statements. But you seem to want the Church to publish or re-publish "anti" propaganda and statements, followed by Church responses to all of those statements... when that would be helping to promote false doctrine.

Or in other words, the truth can be found without having to read through all of the slander and misrepresentations thrown around in the world by people who do not speak the truth, and all lovers of truth can find it.

But as I have said and keep saying, the best source of truth comes from God... through direct and personal testimony.

Too bad the potential and actual apostates can't see how silly you appear to those of us who KNOW the church is true.

I would say sad, not silly, realizing that without Faith we would also be lost.

And btw, what I think is “sad” is that so many people seem to put their trust in what other people say, without praying for guidance from God. And although I know that Satan is also at work, trying to deceive us all in this world, I do know we can also receive Faith from God… and I am very happy about that. :)

[Guest Unorthodox]

The question is, what is causing them to question the Church?

Their own problems would be the answer to that.

I assume you mean "problems" with living the Commandments.

I totally agree.

However, MANY apostates are not having problems with Commandments that relate to morality (don't steal, kill, lie, commit adultry) or even the Word of Wisdom.

These apostates do not keep the Commandments that relate to belief (Believe in Yahweh, don't engrave images, don't use His name in vain, etc).

This is because they simply do not believe in the Judeo-Christian God. That breaks Commandment #1, and I am guilty as charged.

I have problems with "Faith" commandments.

I do not have problems with "Moral" commandments.

Granted, many apostates have problems with all commandments.

Some, strangely enough, have problems with "Moral" commandments, but do not have any problems with "Faith" commandments.

Apostates come in many different forms.

I would think most LDS do not like to think that they have a testimony only because they were "raised to believe".

Most know they have a substancial testmony regardless of their up bringing. Converts prove this daily.

I agree. Converts gain testimonies. When faced with challenges, such as anti materials or actual church history that might be confusing to them, can they keep the testimony? If their testimony is truly from God, then they should have no problem with it.

If the Church has nothing to hide, all facts should be available. "Anti" material should not be censored, especially if it is true. If it is lies, then it needs to be discussed openly and discredited.

If God has nothing to hide, why does He leave so much hidden? You are acting like the kingdom of God is for the world and its rules to reign. Not so. It is a whole different ball game.

God has not hidden anti materials. It is humans who censor them. The fact that God has not hidden the anti materials MIGHT mean that He would prefer they be publicized and discredited.

Actually, FAIR is already working on this.

I was not suggesting that Anti materials be distributed by the Church. I was only suggesting that information found at FAIR or FARMS be more widely available in books, magazines, etc. for people who are not proficient in the Internet. It would even be good to discuss FAIR's articles in Seminary classes.

Or are you calling FAIR an Anti-Mormon website?

Too bad the potential and actual apostates can't see how silly you appear to those of us who KNOW the church is true.

It is inevitable that believers and non-believers will percieve eachother as "silly".

Keeping all the ideas out in the open will keep people honest about their testimonies.

What are you bringing to this table of honesty?

I am being honest about my beliefs. I haven't lied about ANYTHING on this thread (if I have, I would like you to point it out).

Again, I am only suggesting that information found at FAIR be made available in easy to read language so that it is accessible to all LDS, whether they are educated scholars, average church members, and even Seminary students.

Actually, taking into account that 99% of the world is already non-Mormon, the loss of these apostates will not make much difference to the population of the Church.

Well it is prophesied that Christ's church would be small and the Great and Abomiminable church is large. So be it.

I agree. I never said that the small population of the Church made it less true.

But we know that in the next life they will receieve the Gospel again (just as the other 99% non-LDS will get a chance)...because their first chance was spoiled by their confusion and therefore God will give them another chance, for God is good and fair.Well, if the Church is true, then these apostates are obviously not listening to the Spirit when they think things through.

You will not get another chance if you have had it here. And you have. God knows.

I would like the opinion of another LDS person to see if they agree.

I thought that LDS doctrine taught that in Spirit Prison I will be taught the gospel and given a chance to accept it, because although I was baptized, read the BoM, and learned about the Church, obviously my education in this life has been disrupted by the craftiness of men...I never even heard from the Holy Ghost when I prayed about the BoM...that means I never truly knew the Gospel to be true...so if it is actually true, it sounds like I will be one of the people given another chance.

Unfortunately the teachings on this are so vague that different LDS believe different things about the "second chance" doctrine...like if it only applies to non-members, or if it can also apply to unbelieving members and apostates.

The important thing is to keep discussion out in the open, hiding nothing and seeing who passes the test of faith. Then you will see who the REAL SAINTS are.

Tell it to the wind.

If you don't agree, just give an explanation...no need to be rude.

[Guest Syble]

You are so all over the place I wonder, truly, what you expect. Your cake and eat it too?

Eat drink and be merry here in my life and oh yeah~ I'll get another chance on the other side to be with all those saints who dilligently sought the Lord and to do His will while on this earth.

The truth sometimes sounds rude to the lazy saints and non-saints alike.

[Guest Unorthodox]

The true history of the Church IS available and open for public study, without the "anti" propaganda and statements. But you seem to want the Church to publish or re-publish "anti" propaganda and statements, followed by Church responses to all of those statements... when that would be helping to promote false doctrine.

Or in other words, the truth can be found without having to read through all of the slander and misrepresentations thrown around in the world by people who do not speak the truth, and all lovers of truth can find it.

I am sorry I did not clarify what I meant about not censoring anti materials.

I was not suggesting that Anti materials be distributed by the Church.

I was suggesting they be publically answered...discredited if possible. FAIR is already working on this. They publish anti-mormon claims, and then attempt to discredit them.

I believe that information found at FAIR or FARMS should be more widely available in books, magazines, etc. for people who are not proficient in the Internet. It would even be good to discuss FAIR's articles in Seminary classes.

FAIR is not an Anti-Mormon website...you quoted from them to create this thread.

But as I have said and keep saying, the best source of truth comes from God... through direct and personal testimony.

I agree. Some of us have received different answers than you, and neither of us can prove to the other who received the correct answer. I'm not going to attempt to change your mind about the truth of the Church. I am only trying to change your perception of apostates, which I think is limited to considering them immoral, as Cannon did in his article.

There is a difference between the immoral and the unbeliever.

[Guest Unorthodox]

You are so all over the place I wonder, truly, what you expect. Your cake and eat it too?

Eat drink and be merry here in my life and oh yeah~ I'll get another chance on the other side to be with all those saints who dilligently sought the Lord and to do His will while on this earth.

I am not "all over the place"...I was responding to your post.

The problem is not that I want to be lazy.

The problem is that I just do not believe in the Judeo-Christian god or the events of the Bible...which of course leads me to not believe in the Book of Mormon, the LDS Church and all other things based on belief in the Bible.

I don't expect to actually be given a second chance in Spirit Prison, because I do not believe in Spirit Prison, or the Christian/LDS concepts of Heaven (though I think there might be some sort of afterlife).

My point was simply that your comment about me not being eligable for a second chance was inconsistent with alot of LDS interpretations of LDS doctrine (a doctrine I do not believe in, but since you believe in it, it seemed something worthy of discussion here).

The truth sometimes sounds rude to the lazy saints and non-saints alike.

You should know, by the context of this thread, that I was not referring to your comments about the truth of the Church being rude. I do not consider other people's religious beliefs to be rude.

But I think it IS universally rude to say "tell it to the wind" to someone who is simply giving an opinion.

If you don't agree with it, just say so...or give a rational argument against my comment.

[BenRaines]

Unorthodox,

My personal opinion on having had an opportunity to accept the gospel while mortal or after this life is the following.

We are not able, mortal man, to determine if a person has had an opportunity based on having the Spirit bear witness that it is true.

It is as you say that there are people that grew up in the church, attended all the right classes from Primary to graduate from seminary and beyond who never received or perhaps even asked with real intent to know if the restored gospel, as LDS practice, were the true church upon the earth.

Others have had missionaries teach them, who didn't have the spirit with them, who for one reason or another did not deliver the spirit borne testimony that can convert.

I believe that there are few upon the earth that have had that spirit and then departed from it. Are there people that has happened to, sure, but they are not a large group.

An even smaller group are those who have rec'd of the spirit to know it is true and then turned away from it and would fall in to that group known as the Sons of Perdition.

President Kimball said in Miracle of Forgiveness that someone would have to be on the level of Apostle to have the knowledge required to qualify if they rejected the Lord after having that spirit.

Again those are my thoughts. Most who have had the gospel preached to or shared with them will still have an opportunity in the life after to accept the gospel teachings.

Ben

[sgallan]

Eat drink and be merry here in my life and oh yeah~ I'll get another chance on the other side to be with all those saints who dilligently sought the Lord and to do His will while on this earth.

The truth sometimes sounds rude to the lazy saints and non-saints alike.

To be honest.... even if this were to be the truth.... I wouldn't want to be on the other side with this god nor his saints for an eternity.

[Guest Unorthodox]

Unorthodox,

My personal opinion on having had an opportunity to accept the gospel while mortal or after this life is the following.

We are not able, mortal man, to determine if a person has had an opportunity based on having the Spirit bear witness that it is true.

It is as you say that there are people that grew up in the church, attended all the right classes from Primary to graduate from seminary and beyond who never received or perhaps even asked with real intent to know if the restored gospel, as LDS practice, were the true church upon the earth.

Others have had missionaries teach them, who didn't have the spirit with them, who for one reason or another did not deliver the spirit borne testimony that can convert.

I believe that there are few upon the earth that have had that spirit and then departed from it. Are there people that has happened to, sure, but they are not a large group.

An even smaller group are those who have rec'd of the spirit to know it is true and then turned away from it and would fall in to that group known as the Sons of Perdition.

President Kimball said in Miracle of Forgiveness that someone would have to be on the level of Apostle to have the knowledge required to qualify if they rejected the Lord after having that spirit.

Again those are my thoughts. Most who have had the gospel preached to or shared with them will still have an opportunity in the life after to accept the gospel teachings.

Ben

Thank you. This is what I thought was the more common LDS belief...that most people get a second chance to accept the gospel unless they have complete knowledge of the truth and reject it.

As I never had an experience that told me the LDS Church was true, then I never had the chance to reject such an experience.

All I have is knowledge of LDS doctrines, and an opinion that conflicts with those doctrines.

So if the Church turns out to be true (though I personally don't think that will happen...no offense), I don't think I will be Telestial material, much less a Son of Perdition

[Guest Unorthodox]

I have given my opinion, which easily summarized in two points.

1. Apostates are not necessarily immoral, as Cannon described in the article quoted in the first post of this thread.

2. Controversial information about the Church should be widely available through FAIR/FARMS style apologetic materials, written in easy to understand language...included in Seminary classes (or possibly even Gospel Doctrine classes, Priesthood Meetings, etc).

In fact, I think this trend is already beginning. We have the Internet, with FAIR being a major point for discussion of these issues...though only a small minority of LDS people are aware of it because only a small minority of people spend this much time studying on the Internet. Books are more accessible to the average person, especially in a classroom or church meeting.

The trend is also found in new books like "Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling", where LDS historians are writing LDS history without leaving out the controversial details, but instead explaining them from a believer's point of view. Books like this only show the tip of the iceberg of controversies within the church, but by starting small, they are preparing the average LDS person who is not familiar with FAIR for the greater challenges ahead.

I hope this trend continues so that everyone has a chance to honestly test their faith.

If anyone disagrees, go ahead and comment, but I have stated my case as thoroughly as I find it possible.

I really am leaving this thread now, because it is obviously degenerating into insults between believers and unbelievers.

[Ray]

Most who have had the gospel preached to or shared with them will still have an opportunity in the life after to accept the gospel teachings.

Ben

Yes, but those who hear the gospel and do not accept it in this life are only eligible for the Terrestrial kingdom... because they trusted too much in men (including themselves) instead of gaining Faith from God.

Or in other words, once someone hears the gospel all they need then is the Faith to know it is true, and since we can all receive that Faith, because our Lord has promised we WILL receive it when we seek it, we will have nobody to blame but ourselves for our unwillingness to do what we needed to do to get it (Faith).

And btw, it works the same way in the next life too, because we can't know the truth without Faith.

[BenRaines]

Please define your understanding of hear. As I understand the meaning it means have the Holy Ghost bear witness to you that the message is true. Just to hear the gospel preached is not a disqualifying event to prevent someone from accepting the gospel and entering Celestial Kingdom after this life. As I understand it.

Ben

[Ray]

Okay, here is how it works, according to my own understanding and in my own words, while trying to get this message back to you as quickly and simply and truthfully as I possibly can right now.

When someone hears the true gospel message, by listening with their own ears or reading about it with their own eyes, (which is why it is better to simply say “when someone "receives” the true gospel message"),

from someone who is capable of sharing and explaining the true gospel message,

and the person who “receives” the true gospel message comes to the point where they actually “understand” the true gospel message, (in the only way anyone truly can understand anything),

they have then “received” the true gospel message as much as anybody possibly can “receive” the true gospel message,

and it then becomes a matter of obtaining or “receiving” the Faith necessary to know that the true gospel message is true.

… which anyone can receive by simply seeking for an assurance from God

… because God has promised that those who Seek Him (and His assurance) will Find Him.

Or in other words, it is not as if it is God’s fault for not assuring someone of the truth, because God will assure everyone of the truth just as soon as they show that they really want to know the truth...

… which is after they show that they truly want to know God

... regardless of what any other person has to say.

[Josie]

Ben,

I am with you on this. The stats were given some time ago that it takes something like 14 times (I believe that was the right number) for someone to hear the gospel and actually accept it. Just because someone invites the missionaries in and listens to a few lessons, I don't think that constitutes their judgement on whether they accepted the gospel or not. I am certainly glad it is the Lord that is judging us. WE judge ourselves and others so harshly, that I can understand why we have the loving God that we do to judge our righteousness and qualifications of each kingdom.

[Ray]

Ben,

I am with you on this. The stats were given some time ago that it takes something like 14 times (I believe that was the right number) for someone to hear the gospel and actually accept it. Just because someone invites the missionaries in and listens to a few lessons, I don't think that constitutes their judgement on whether they accepted the gospel or not. I am certainly glad it is the Lord that is judging us. WE judge ourselves and others so harshly, that I can understand why we have the loving God that we do to judge our righteousness and qualifications of each kingdom.

Of course "accepting" the gospel has nothing to do with "how many times we hear it", and even if we all had to hear it 100 times before being able to come to the point where we could know that the gospel is true, it only takes that ONE time when we have received an assurance from God.

I suggest taking another look at the qualifications for those who will inherit the Terrestrial kingdom, because it will consist of many noble and great ones who were simply deceived by the teachings of men.

And btw, I brought this up simply to show that it is not good to have the idea that we can "wait and see" in the next life... when we can know all we need to know now.

[BenRaines]

I would agree that there is no watch and see. As I said in an earlier post it is the Lord who will make the decision who has had an opportunity or not to hear and receive of that spirit and who had not.

Glad I do not have to make that call. :)

[Ray]

I would agree that there is no watch and see. As I said in an earlier post it is the Lord who will make the decision who has had an opportunity or not to hear and receive of that spirit and who had not.

Glad I do not have to make that call. :)

But He already did. Why can't you see that now?