How Does LDS Church resolve conflicts with the Bible ???

[rameumptom]

Maureen,

We believe in three Gods, one Godhead. There is only one difference between our concept of the Godhead and the traditional belief in the Trinity: whether God is physically one being, or one organization of three physically separate beings.

The difference, IMO, is very minor. There are bigger issues on whether God is a Spirit, or a Spirit clothed with a glorified physical body.

What is definite, to me at least, is that we worship the same God, and the Father, Son and Holy Ghost love us and desire that we be like them and with them through eternity.

[jlf9999]

What exactly were you asking then?

M.

How would such a request be received? Would it create dissension in the family between you and your LDS cousin?

[Maureen]

How would such a request be received? Would it create dissension in the family between you and your LDS cousin?

My LDS ties are through marriage; my husband's family is LDS. But if an LDS family member or friend were to ask me if I would mind if they did proxy work for me or for one of my children (in the future of course), I would graciously say no thank you.

M.

[Soninme]

There is no doubt. We worship God the Father through Jesus Christ. Christ is the conduit. That is LDS doctrine.

jlf9999

Could you please clarify. Do you actually worship Jesus? Why or why not?

It seems to me that the Trinitarian concept is based solely on tradition not scripture.

Who is speaking in Isaiah 44:24? Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Thanks

[jlf9999]

jlf9999

Could you please clarify. Do you actually worship Jesus? Why or why not?

Who is speaking in Isaiah 44:24? Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Thanks

We worship God the Father through Jesus Christ but that does not mean we do not worship Him as well. He is the Son of God, our Redeemer and through which, no one can return to The Father. Christ created the world at the direction of The Father. That is what our Sacrament service is all about. He is the Eternal God. Of course we worship Him.

Soninme, you touch on an interesting subject. We are sometimes pulled up short because some think we spend too much time on subjects other than Christ. We do have a wide variety of important subjects to talk about that is for sure. The question is often asked who we think Jesus Christ is and is our Jesus a different Jesus than traditional Christians believe in. John Walsh, an LDS apologist and BYU professor, has an interesting comment about that. You can read his thinking on the subject at Do you believe in a different Jesus?. It is brief but pretty well bottom-lines it. Welsh is one of the writers many of us trust to help us digest complex issues.

Edited April 11, 2011 by jlf9999

[jlf9999]

My LDS ties are through marriage; my husband's family is LDS. But if an LDS family member or friend were to ask me if I would mind if they did proxy work for me or for one of my children (in the future of course), I would graciously say no thank you.

M.

So your are OK with your extended family doing vicarious temple work for mutual family members? It does not create a rift in your family?

[Maureen]

So your are OK with your extended family doing vicarious temple work for mutual family members? It does not create a rift in your family?

No one has ever asked me if they can do vicarious temple work for my own relatives. If they do vicarious work for extended family members that I'm related to via marriage, then I really have no say, they do not need my permission. If family members (in-laws) do vicarious temple work for their own relatives, then more power to them.

M.

[jlf9999]

No one has ever asked me if they can do vicarious temple work for my own relatives. If they do vicarious work for extended family members that I'm related to via marriage, then I really have no say, they do not need my permission. If family members (in-laws) do vicarious temple work for their own relatives, then more power to them.

M.

The reason I ask is that sometimes we need data from non-LDS relatives such as dates and locations and so forth. Would you give it to your LDS relative for someone in your family who died 100 years ago or more?

[Soninme]

Christ created the world at the direction of The Father. That is what our Sacrament service is all about. He is the Eternal God. Of course we worship Him.

jlf9999

My confusion with "Christ created the world at the direction of The Father" is that Isa. 44:24 clearly says the "LORD" [strongs concordance #3068 Yehovah,(the) self-Existant or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:-Jehovah, the Lord.] formed you, makes all things, streches out the Heavens, and spreads abroad the earth, all alone, by Myself"; which surely implies to me that 1 Being (God) is responsible for creation. One god creating at the direction of another doesn't follow the text nor does it fit with Hebrews 1:1 "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power,"...

The bolded part says The Father did the creating through Jesus.

Yet again though, the Father adds; Hebrews 1:10 “ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. This tells us Jesus did it! Hebrews and Isaiah could be contradictory except for the Trinity. The one almighty God created all things all alone, by Himself.

[Soninme]

What is definite, to me at least, is that we worship the same God, and the Father, Son and Holy Ghost love us and desire that we be like them and with them through eternity.

Ram

To me, they are very different.

The God of the Bible has been God from all eternity. (Psalm 90:2)

The god of LDS was once a man "like us" capable of sin, and progressed to Godhood.

The biblical Jesus has been God from all eternity. (John 1:1) (Micah 5:2)

The Jesus of LDS first existed as an "intelligence" then progressed to Godhood.

The biblical Jesus is the Creator of Lucifer, you, and me. (John 1:3)

The Jesus of LDS is Lucifer, yours, and my spirit brother.

Clearly not the same God. We are to worship in spirit and in truth.(John 4:24)

Thanks

Edited April 13, 2011 by Soninme

[volgadon]

Ram

To me, they are very different.

The God of the Bible has been God from all eternity. (Psalm 90:2)

The god of LDS was once a man "like us" capable of sin, and progressed to Godhood.

The biblical Jesus has been God from all eternity. (John 1:1) (Micah 5:2)

The Jesus of LDS first existed as an "intelligence" then progressed to Godhood.

The biblical Jesus is the Creator of Lucifer, you, and me. (John 1:3)

The Jesus of LDS is Lucifer, yours, and my spirit brother.

Clearly not the same God. We are to worship in spirit and in truth.(John 4:24)

Thanks

The God of the Bible is our divine kinsman, he is not part of the creator-created divide introduced by philosophers. The Bible's concept of eternity is not the philosophical one, so we really know nothing of his prehistory. The biblical Jesus is capable of sin, otherwise he would not have been tempted. According to Hebrews, Jesus went through a process of becoming divine through his sacrifice.

[jlf9999]

I can't image why you would still not understand that Christ was acting on behalf of the Father in whom all things are made. Look at it like a partnership in which the junior partner has the authority to speak on behalf of the senior partner and in fact speak as though he was the senior. However, the senior has tasked the junior partner with the job of actually doing all the creating. When the junior partner speaks he is speaking as though he was the senior. The relationship is so tight that one knows what the other is doing, thinking and saying. The Father provides the authority and direction and the Son does the work. Did not Christ say He has done nothing that he has not seen His father do? I think you can only take that to mean one thing: The Father showed the Son.

Sometimes we forget that translation into English likely left out some important elements that would help us understand better. The original was in Hebrew and Aramaic and then it was translated into Latin and from there into English so don't feel like the lone stranger. Personally, I think God knew we would have to go back to Him for help in understanding the nuances and other major things too. The Book of Mormon prophets kept a second record that helps us understand. The confusion comes form rejecting the Book of Mormon. With it, it all is clearer.

[Soninme]

The God of the Bible is our divine kinsman,

Hello volgadon

We disagree.

The Bible's concept of eternity is not the philosophical one, so we really know nothing of his prehistory.

Except that He says He is "from everlasting to everlasting" (Ps. 90:2) and " Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!”. (Rev. 4:8)

1000 gozillion million years ago He is the One “Who was and is and is to come!”

The biblical Jesus is capable of sin, otherwise he would not have been tempted.

I believe His humanity was tempted but not His divinity.

According to Hebrews, Jesus went through a process of becoming divine through his sacrifice.

Which verse/s are you referring to? The Bible says Jesus has been God from all eternity. (John 1:1) (Micah 5:2)

Thanks

[volgadon]

Hello volgadon

We disagree.

Feel free to take the matter up with the parents of Ahijah the Shilonite. Ahijah = "YHWH is my brother." In case you think that my only evidence is the name, then I'll be happy to provide many more illustrations from the Bible.

Except that He says He is "from everlasting to everlasting" (Ps. 90:2) and " Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!”. (Rev. 4:8)

1000 gozillion million years ago He is the One “Who was and is and is to come!”

You are reading philosophical terminology into places where it doesn't belong. I'll expand on this later.

I believe His humanity was tempted but not His divinity.

What does that mean and where do you see that in the text.

Which verse/s are you referring to? The Bible says Jesus has been God from all eternity. (John 1:1) (Micah 5:2)

Thanks

Chapter 1 of Hebrews. As a result of Jesus's triumph, God declares that today he has begotten him, that he has anointed him with the oil of gladness above his fellows, and that he has enthroned him on his right side. All these verses from Psalms paint a picture of Christ becoming a divine figure as a result of what he did on earth, despite his serving as God's lieutenant during the creation.

[rameumptom]

Soninme,

It really is an issue of studying and learning not how Protestants, Catholics or Mormons read the scriptures in a modern parlance, but what these meant to the ancients.

In Hebrews, Paul clearly notes that God created all things through Christ. In Genesis 1:24-26, we have God talking to "us". In Isaiah 6, the prophet is in the divine council of heaven, where God the Father sits on his throne. Isaiah laments his wickedness, and is cleansed by a serephim, a high order angel that was probably Yahweh the Messiah, he who takes away the sins of the world.

There is a clear development of Israel's belief in God from a Father Elohim/Son Yahweh, to a combined Elohim/Yahweh that was finalized probably with the Deuteronomists and Priestly scribes.

[jlf9999]

When we get to the point where we start looking outside the scriptures for secondary sources we are walking on uneven ground. It is certainly interesting but I can't think that they are more helpful that prayerful reading of the canon. I read these other sources too. But I love the bible and Book of Mormon and others more.

I just wonder if Soninme opens his heart to the promptings of the Holy Ghost when he reads scripture. I asked one guy that question and he whipped back that he was inspired that the Church was evil. So I can't say which spirit he was listening too.

Edited April 15, 2011 by jlf9999

[Soninme]

Feel free to take the matter up with the parents of Ahijah the Shilonite. Ahijah = "YHWH is my brother." In case you think that my only evidence is the name, then I'll be happy to provide many more illustrations from the Bible.

volgadon

I believe the Bible to be the word of almighty God, using biblical illustrations is how you will convince me. Does the BOM teach this? (just curious)

Quote:

Except that He says He is "from everlasting to everlasting" (Ps. 90:2) and " Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!”. (Rev. 4:8)

1000 gozillion million years ago He is the One “Who was and is and is to come!"

You are reading philosophical terminology into places where it doesn't belong.

I thought I was reading the Bible.

What does that mean and where do you see that in the text.

Jesus is God the Word.(John 1:1) The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.(John 1:14) The incarnation.

In His divinity we say " God cannot be tempted by evil" (James 1:13) in His humanity He was. (Matt 4:1) Yet without sin. (Heb 4:15)

Just a note to the tempting; Matthew 4:8 "Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me".

Jesus knows Who He is right.(The Creator of all the devil is showing Him) It already belongs to Jesus, He (Jesus) knows its not the devil's to give. How is that a temptation for His divinity? It's like me saying "I will let you have the computer that you are reading this on if you will worship me"

Chapter 1 of Hebrews. As a result of Jesus's triumph, God declares that today he has begotten him, that he has anointed him with the oil of gladness above his fellows, and that he has enthroned him on his right side. All these verses from Psalms paint a picture of Christ becoming a divine figure as a result of what he did on earth, despite his serving as God's lieutenant during the creation.

Forgive me but do LDS now believe Jesus wasn't a god until the ressurrection?

John 1:1 and Micah 5:2 as quoted before says Jesus was God from from all eternity, not "as a result of what he did on earth"

Thanks

[volgadon]

When we get to the point where we start looking outside the scriptures for secondary sources we are walking on uneven ground. It is certainly interesting but I can't think that they are more helpful that prayerful reading of the canon. I read these other sources too. But I love the bible and Book of Mormon and others more.

I just wonder if Soninme opens his heart to the promptings of the Holy Ghost when he reads scripture. I asked one guy that question and he whipped back that he was inspired that the Church was evil. So I can't say which spirit he was listening too.

When we realise that the Bible (and the BoM) wasn't written for and by a 21st century American but were written by people separated from us by a wide gulf of time, language, geography and culture, we start looking at other sources that will help elucidate the scriptures. The Holy Ghost is of course the best source for applying a spiritual message in our lives. For instance, do we insist on reading the phrase vain repetition as if it were modern usage without even thinking that the text doesn't read vainglorious?

[jlf9999]

When we realise that the Bible (and the BoM) wasn't written for and by a 21st century American but were written by people separated from us by a wide gulf of time, language, geography and culture, we start looking at other sources that will help elucidate the scriptures. The Holy Ghost is of course the best source for applying a spiritual message in our lives. For instance, do we insist on reading the phrase vain repetition as if it were modern usage without even thinking that the text doesn't read vainglorious?

Good points. I chose my sources carefully when I read outside works. There is so much malarkey out there that the uninitiated could think some writers actually know the subject. If people like the F.A.R.M.S. contributers or the GA's have never talked about them, I ignore them too.

[volgadon]

volgadon

I believe the Bible to be the word of almighty God, using biblical illustrations is how you will convince me. Does the BOM teach this? (just curious)

Oh, you are convinced already?

Yes, the BoM does teach the same kind of kinship theology that the Old Testament does, the concept is crucial to understanding teachings regarding a redeemer.

I thought I was reading the Bible.

So do LDS. The point is that you are reading philosophical terms INTO the Bible.

Jesus is God the Word.(John 1:1) The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.(John 1:14) The incarnation.

In His divinity we say " God cannot be tempted by evil" (James 1:13) in His humanity He was. (Matt 4:1) Yet without sin. (Heb 4:15)

Just a note to the tempting; Matthew 4:8 "Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me".

Jesus knows Who He is right.(The Creator of all the devil is showing Him) It already belongs to Jesus, He (Jesus) knows its not the devil's to give. How is that a temptation for His divinity? It's like me saying "I will let you have the computer that you are reading this on if you will worship me"

Why don't we save ourselves some time and energy by having you state what a temptation for his divinity would have looked like. I'm afraid your position is far from clear.

Forgive me but do LDS now believe Jesus wasn't a god until the ressurrection?

John 1:1 and Micah 5:2 as quoted before says Jesus was God from from all eternity, not "as a result of what he did on earth"

Thanks

Then Hebrews must be in conflict with John and Micah.

The point I was making is that the author of Hebrews believed that Christ was divine before his mortal life, but that he regained his divine position as a result of his triumph.

[rameumptom]

Good points. I chose my sources carefully when I read outside works. There is so much malarkey out there that the uninitiated could think some writers actually know the subject. If people like the F.A.R.M.S. contributers or the GA's have never talked about them, I ignore them too.

Would it surprise you to know that I've edited some of the papers of FARMS contributors who have written for other sites (such as FAIR)? FAIR has contributions from Daniel Peterson and many others who work for the Maxwell Institute. I've been on online discussion groups with William Hamblin and others for about 20 years.

There is one thing you are missing in all of this. These LDS scholars didn't just one day become scholars. They've studied for years the things Volgadon and I are bringing up on many of these threads. Both Volgadon and I are also on the Mormon Discussion Boards (formerly the FAIR forums), where we also discuss issues with Daniel Peterson and William Hamblin.

So, you may want to consider giving us a little consideration in trying to teach the way the ancient Israelites likely believed on these things.

[Soninme]

Yes, the BoM does teach the same kind of kinship theology that the Old Testament does, the concept is crucial to understanding teachings regarding a redeemer.

Do you have examples?

Quote:

Except that He says He is "from everlasting to everlasting" (Ps. 90:2) and " Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!”. (Rev. 4:8)

1000 gozillion million years ago He is the One “Who was and is and is to come!"

Quote:

You are reading philosophical terminology into places where it doesn't belong.

This could also be said of you, but this will get us nowhere.

I agree with you the Bible was;

written by people separated from us by a wide gulf of time, language, geography and culture, we start looking at other sources that will help elucidate the scriptures. The Holy Ghost is of course the best source for applying a spiritual message in our lives.

But we should certainly start with scriptures first and see what they say.

Do you have a biblical reverence for the Father being a man "like us" and Jesus being once just an "intelligence" and they both progressed to Godhood?

Or even a BOM reference?

Why don't we save ourselves some time and energy by having you state what a temptation for his divinity would have looked like. I'm afraid your position is far from clear.

My point is; "God cannot be tempted by evil" (James 1:13) That part is clear. Therefore I have nothing to show you. Only Man is tempted.

Then Hebrews must be in conflict with John and Micah.

The point I was making is that the author of Hebrews believed that Christ was divine before his mortal life, but that he regained his divine position as a result of his triumph.

I believe He never surrendered His divinity. How does God cease to be God? He was God before He "became flesh"(John 1:1) God while He was flesh (John 1:14) He is both the Son of God and the Son of man.

Thanks

[jlf9999]

Would it surprise you to know that I've edited some of the papers of FARMS contributors who have written for other sites (such as FAIR)? FAIR has contributions from Daniel Peterson and many others who work for the Maxwell Institute. I've been on online discussion groups with William Hamblin and others for about 20 years.

There is one thing you are missing in all of this. These LDS scholars didn't just one day become scholars. They've studied for years the things Volgadon and I are bringing up on many of these threads. Both Volgadon and I are also on the Mormon Discussion Boards (formerly the FAIR forums), where we also discuss issues with Daniel Peterson and William Hamblin.

So, you may want to consider giving us a little consideration in trying to teach the way the ancient Israelites likely believed on these things.

Sorry old buddy. I don't know who you are and why is affirmation so important? Send me an email with your real name and I just may become an enthusiastic supporter- if you are a Republican:)

[volgadon]

Sorry old buddy. I don't know who you are and why is affirmation so important? Send me an email with your real name and I just may become an enthusiastic supporter- if you are a Republican:)

Perhaps that silly attidue found in your post of FARMS adulation on the one hand, and a condemnation of things not found in the standard works on the other raised some hackles.

That being said, scroll down to the comments here.

Arguments need to be considered on their own merits. FARMS good others bad is really the logical fallacy known as an appeal to authority.

[volgadon]

Rameumpton knows his stuff. I may disagree with him from time to time, but his posts are good.