Did Adam and Eve...

[Justice]

Vanhin, often man and Adam are synonomous terms. We are the family of man or the family of Adam. There are even other times that "Adam" is used sybolically to represent all men who would be born mortal.

I have studied those particular scriptures you posted for many years. Those are the very scriptures I have used to determine that God gave Adam a choice whether or not to partake of the tree of life after falling. As you first begin to read those scriptures and try to understand them they most certainly do sound like God removed Adam's agency and forbid him to partake of the tree of life afterward. However, after many years of studying this topic, using those very scriptures and others, I have come to the conclusion that God did not remove Adam's agency.

Now those scriptures make it plain to me.

All I can do is tell you that I know God did not remove Adam's agency. Had Adam chose to partake of the tree of life God would not have prevented him from doing so. Understanding these scriptures is what allowed me to "turn the corner" on my study of the creation, fall, and atonement.

Hint: verse 21 from above that you posted is NOT a prophet speaking. Alma spends many verses refuting the idea presented in verse 21. It is simply a question posed to Alma by someone who has been taught incorrectly about the fall. Alma never says the tree was there to prevent Adam from eating it, but man. I believe that is harmonious with what is taught in the temple, when understood as symbolism. In the temple we are to put ourselves in place of Adam the character in the story.

Edited August 15, 2010 by Justice

[Moksha]

For those who insist a literal Adam and Eve were cloned, remember that even those born in the decanting chambers in Brave New World had an umbilical attachment.

[Justice]

Tie Alma 12 in with Alma 42:

1 And now, my son, I perceive there is somewhat more which doth worry your mind, which ye cannot understand—which is concerning the justice of God in the punishment of the sinner; for ye do try to suppose that it is injustice that the sinner should be consigned to a state of misery.

2 Now behold, my son, I will explain this thing unto thee. For behold, after the Lord God sent our first parents forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground, from whence they were taken—yea, he drew out the man, and he placed at the east end of the garden of Eden, cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the tree of life—

3 Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit—

4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.

5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.

6 But behold, it was appointed unto man to die—therefore, as they were cut off from the tree of life they should be cut off from the face of the earth—and man became lost forever, yea, they became fallen man.

Read Alma 12 and 42 in unison.

Alma 12 is worded a bit different, but I believe it is worded the way it is because of the difficulty of their language and writting on metal plates. Once you decide that God would not have removed their agency, it becomes clear. Alma 12 and 42 say the same thing.

Had Adam partook of the fruit (specifically Eve, but Adam is included) then all mankind would have been born to immortal parents, and had been lost and fallen forever (for reasons I have mentioned before). This was Satan's design, as so clearly stated in Alma 12.

Look at Alma 12 and what he was speaking about before Zeezrom interrupted him with a question about the resurrection. He was explaining Satan's plan. When Alma gets back on track he says "this is the thing which I was about to explain to you." He was trying to explain Satan's plan.

We could have a very long discussion about Alma 12 and 42, they are my favorite scriptures anywhere. They have enlightened me about the creation, fall, and atonement more than any other 2 chapters.

Look at all the consequences that Alma describes would have happened had Adam and Eve ate from the tree of life and became immortal before they had children. It would have accomplished everything Satan was after. It would have brought about his design.

I fall back on this one very basic piece of logic: If all Satan wanted to do was destroy God's plan, all he had to do was not temp Eve, and leave them in the garden.

The logic in that statement is simple, yet sound. He tempted Eve for a reason. Not just "them" but Eve specifically. He tempted Eve because he was still trying to bring about his plan... namely as described in Alma 12 and 42... where all mankind would be born immortal and bypass mortality.

Alma 43 and 44 shed more light on this, if you understand the symbolism.

Alma 43:

1 And now it came to pass that the sons of Alma did go forth among the people, to declare the word unto them. And Alma, also, himself, could not rest, and he also went forth.

2 Now we shall say no more concerning their preaching, except that they preached the word, and the truth, according to the spirit of prophecy and revelation; and they preached after the holy order of God by which they were called.

3 And now I return to an account of the wars between the Nephites and the Lamanites, in the *eighteenth year of the reign of the judges.

Some of the best chapters in the Book of Mormon are when the sons of Alma go about preaching. Why would the author return to an account of the wars at this point?

The war described in 43 and 44 is teaching of another much earlier war. See if you can see the symbolism.

[Vanhin]

Vanhin, often man and Adam are synonomous terms. We are the family of man or the family of Adam. There are even other times that "Adam" is used sybolically to represent all men who would be born mortal.

That is true. Do you think I have claimed otherwise? I have all kinds of things to say about the topic, but I don't want to appear to defend a position that I don't hold.

Though Adam can represent man symbolically, it always means the actual person Adam.

I have studied those particular scriptures you posted for many years. Those are the very scriptures I have used to determine that God gave Adam a choice whether or not to partake of the tree of life after falling. As you first begin to read those scriptures and try to understand them they most certainly do sound like God removed Adam's agency and forbid him to partake of the tree of life afterward. However, after many years of studying this topic, using those very scriptures and others, I have come to the conclusion that God did not remove Adam's agency.

Now those scriptures make it plain to me.

All I can do is tell you that I know God did not remove Adam's agency. Had Adam chose to partake of the tree of life God would not have prevented him from doing so. Understanding these scriptures is what allowed me to "turn the corner" on my study of the creation, fall, and atonement.

I'm not sure what to respond to here either. I'm not arguing that Adam's agency was taken away. Is that the conclusion you have come to about my position, that Adam lost his agency according to me? I am aware that if it was my position that God took away Adam's agency, that it would be a far easier position for you to attack, than my actual position. So, I am making it clear... That's not my position.

Cherubim and the flaming sword were placed to keep Adam from partaking of the tree of life prematurely, which he was freely able to partake of before the transgression. He would have lived forever in his sins, and not died, frustrating the plan of salvation, exactly as the scriptures teach.

That gave mankind, including the first man Adam, a time to repent before the mortal body dies - and before the resurrection. Preventing Adam (and the rest of us) from partaking of the tree of life prematurely allows for redemption from the fall- redemption from both sin and death, not just death.

Hint: verse 21 from above that you posted is NOT a prophet speaking. Alma spends many verses refuting the idea presented in verse 21. It is simply a question posed to Alma by someone who has been taught incorrectly about the fall. Alma never says the tree was there to prevent Adam from eating it, but man. I believe that is harmonious with what is taught in the temple, when understood as symbolism. In the temple we are to put ourselves in place of Adam the character in the story.

But... it is Alma who is speaking in verse 23.

And now behold, if it were possible that our first parents could have gone forth and partaken of the tree of life they would have been forever miserable, having no preparatory state; and thus the plan of redemption would have been frustrated, and the word of God would have been void, taking none effect.

It's pretty plain. Obviously it means all of us symbolically, but it means Adam and Eve literally since they were in proximity of the actual tree during their life times.

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited August 16, 2010 by Vanhin

[Justice]

It's pretty plain. Obviously it means all of us symbolically, but it means Adam and Eve literally since they were in proximity of the actual tree during their life times.

I think this is the important part.

If you believe God placed the guard on the tree of life to prevent Adam from partaking the tree of life after he fell, then in my view, you have to believe that Adam did not have agency to do so, since God prevented him even if he wanted to. If you believe the guard was placed there for the purpose of preventing Adam from partaking, and you somehow believe Adam still had his agency to do so, I need to hear further explanation. If you can marry those two thoughts together then I need to rethink my position based on your explanation. But, to me, if God placed a guard so Adam could not partake, then he did not have his agency to eat it since the choice was removed.

Once you see that he did have agency (barring your explanation) and therefore had to have made this choice (even if not mentioned in scripture), then this part becomes clear, that he was speaking about Adam, but directing the remarks at Adam's mortal offspring who would want to become immortal. Since, Adam had already made the choice to become and remain mortal. Adam would not have needed the guard, but his offspring would have.

[Justice]

Don't be thrown off by "if it were possible..."

He very well could be saying that it simply wasn't possible because God's plan was not going to fail. Again, look at the companion verse in 42 where Alma says "if Adam partook of..."

This doesn't necessarily mean Adam did not have a choice and it was impossible for him to partake.

[Vanhin]

I think this is the important part.

If you believe God placed the guard on the tree of life to prevent Adam from partaking the tree of life after he fell, then in my view, you have to believe that Adam did not have agency to do so, since God prevented him even if he wanted to.

If you don't believe that God placed the guard on the tree of life to prevent Adam from partaking of the tree of life, then you are in opposition of the scriptures which plainly say so. Despite your explanations, you have not made the case Adam does not mean Adam, or that "first parents" does not mean first parents, in addition to meaning mankind. The scriptures say exactly what I believe about the matter.

For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated

That really happened to Adam, and not just metaphorically. It only applies to the rest of us metaphorically.

If you believe the guard was placed there for the purpose of preventing Adam from partaking, and you somehow believe Adam still had his agency to do so, I need to hear further explanation. If you can marry those two thoughts together then I need to rethink my position based on your explanation. But, to me, if God placed a guard so Adam could not partake, then he did not have his agency to eat it since the choice was removed.

The guard was placed to prevent Adam from partaking. That is a fact that you are only able to counter by ignoring plain words that say so in scripture, or redefining terms. No offense brother, this is a common theme with you. I don't know how anyone can use the scriptures that way. The hidden truths do not negate the plain truths.

Yes, the story of Adam applies to each of us as well, but it applied to Adam first and foremost.

Can you go to Kolob right now? No, you can't. Does that mean you do not have agency? No it doesn't. Like Adam, you maintain your agency in the sphere in which God has placed you.

Once you see that he did have agency (barring your explanation) and therefore had to have made this choice (even if not mentioned in scripture), then this part becomes clear, that he was speaking about Adam, but directing the remarks at Adam's mortal offspring who would want to become immortal. Since, Adam had already made the choice to become and remain mortal. Adam would not have needed the guard, but his offspring would have.

Adam did need the guard, that's why the Only Begotten stretched forth His hand towards the tree of life and said, "Let cherubim and a flaming sword be placed to guard the way of the tree of life, lest Adam put forth his hand, and partake of the fruit thereof, and live forever in his sins.".

Adam had already exercised his agency in this matter before Cherubim was placed to guard the tree. If he had partaken after the transgression, then he would have remained forever in his sins, and God would have been made a liar since he said that Adam would surely die if he partook of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Had Adam partook of the tree of life after the transgression, he would not have died... That's what Alma said in plain language. But also let me show you where and when Adam made the choice.

And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter. Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other. (2 Ne. 2:15-16)

Satan came and tempted them, and they made their choice to pass through mortality. That is when the choice was made.

Does that mean that Adam was kept from the tree of life forever? No, he had to use his agency to have faith in Jesus Christ, repent of his sins, and to keep the laws and ordinances of the Gospel to become redeemed from the fall, so that that he could be free from his sins before he partook of the tree of life.

The truth is, Adam did choose to partake of the tree of life the only way that was available to him after the fall - the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We have that choice as well, and thus we can become sons of God like Adam. That is what Moses 6 is all about. Those who reject the gospel choose not to partake of the tree of life. The only way to choose the tree of life is through the merits of Christ. This was true for Adam, and it is true for us.

Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself. (2 Ne. 2:27)

So, you see Adam had agency, and though he was prevented from partaking of the tree of life in his sins, he used his granted time and agency to choose the tree of life through the Savior and His Atonement. Which is the only way man can choose Eternal Life, and which is not possible unless there is first a fall. The Fall and Redemption are prerequisites for Life Eternal.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Seminarysnoozer]

However, beauty and variety are not temporal conditions, and identity is not a temporal but an eternal condition.

Thanks for your comments. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I tend to think that God finds beauty in uniformity. I've never read a scripture or heard a prophet say anything to the effect of, "be whatever you want to be, make sure you are different than your neighbor." If anything, the message is to be like our savior, which is one thing.

I am not talking about variety in terms of there being fish and birds and trees and shrubs etc., different types of animals or plants. I am only talking about the variety that occurs in the same species. That variety is for survival, built into the system to allow for evolutionary survival. That won't be necessary in the next life. There will be no need for some to have a longer nasal passage to survive in the cold while others may have a shorter nose or lots of melanin in the skin for a particular climate with lots of sun exposure while others have very little to allow for added calcium metabolism in a climate that lacks sun or some with this or that feature that resulted from natural selection over the thousands of years to produce your ancestors to eventually combine the genes that make up you. I wonder how different everyone would look for example if there was no war ever on this world. Those that were not very good at war would still be around. Or what would this world look like if there was no racial prejudice based on the color of skin, we might have all had that beautiful mixed tone and appearance that Brazilians have, for example, from European, African and native American genes. We will never know, because it wasn't intended to be that kind of world, yet.

I don't think any of that variety is a celestial kingdom property but would be necessary in a telestial state for the conditions of this existence which is to challenge and test us. Like the thorns on plants that did not exist before, the human body has "thorns" too. I am hoping one of those "thorns" is my genetic ability to store away calories for the winter, I definitely don't want to have to fight that battle for the eternities.

[Justice]

OK, I get that we disagree, and is why I enjoy the discussion. However, clearly you feel I am ignorant in the matter and am ignoring scripture that is plain to everyone but me.

You have closed your mind because you know you're right. That's OK with me. But, it makes a discussion very difficult.

You have tried to explain your answer to me but I still see contradiction in your words.

I disagree that a person can have agency in a choice that he cannot make. That doesn't make sense to me, and I have asked for you to explain how it can. A choice has to be available in order for agency to be present. I do not believe God removed Adam's agency to follow his plan, either before OR after he partook of the forbidden fruit. So, if God prevented Adam from eating from the tree of life immediately after he fell, then God removed Adam's agency in that matter. It's that plain and simple.

Because we disagree in this point we will see it differently.

So, I guess we'll agree to disagree.

My whole point is that Adam chose God's way, not Satan's way, yet you explain it to me as if I'm the one saying Adam didn't have a choice. I'm the one saying he did while you're the one saying God prevented him from making the choice.

If, after reading Alma 12, you don't see that it was Satan's plan for Eve to partake of the tree of life immediately after partaking of the forbidden fruit, or why, then this discussion will profit nothing.

This is not some random phenomenon, or some hypothetical situation that Alma, then Mormon, wrote about to take up space in the plates. There's something to this "if Adam partook of the tree of life..." story Alma is telling (more than once). Alma 12 makes it perfectly clear, at least to me, that it was Satan's plan. I mean, look at the consequences of them eating the tree of life immediately after, they are EXACTLY what we know Satan hoped to accomplish.

Oh well, I was told that truths like this are caught and not taught. I just don't listen.

[Justice]

For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated

That really happened to Adam, and not just metaphorically. It only applies to the rest of us metaphorically.

Before you go, this confuses me even more than I was about your position.

What do you mean "That really happened to Adam?"

This describes what "would have" happened had Adam chose Satan's plan to partake of the tree of life immediately after partaking of the forbidden fruit. It did not happen.

And, HAD it happened, it most certainly would have applied to the rest of us because ALL MANKIND would have been lost forever had Adam ate the tree of life.

Had he done so the plan of salvation would have been frustrated... don't you see why?

I know, because the mortal probation for men wouldn't have happened, and man would not have had a chance to repent... blah blah blah and the rest of the Primary answer.

The driver for the plan was the blood atonement of the Son of God. Repentance meant NOTHING without it. Had Eve partaken of the tree of life and became immortal (never tasting of death) that means she no longer would have had blood. Mortals have blood; mortals die. Immortals do not have blood; immortals do not die. Think about the birth of the Son of God and why it HAD TO BE to a mortal MOTHER. The Father of the Son of God did not have blood, but the mother did. The Son of God had blood. That means the children take on the characteristics of the mother. That's why Satan went after Eve! All he had to do was get her to partake of the forbidden fruit AND THEN the tree of life and all mankind would have been born immortal (just like it says in Alma).

ALL the children of Adam and Eve would have been born immortal, or having no blood... including the Son of God. That rendered the plan of salvation "frustrated" because it would have been impossible for the Son of God to perform a blood atonement for the sins of men. Thus, all mankind were lost in their sins and fallen forever, with no chance at redemption, rendering repentance meaningless (just like it says in Alma). This would have literally DESTROYED the agency of man BECAUSE man no longer could have chosen (exercised their agency) to follow the Son of God back to the presence of the Father (which was Satan's plan).

I learned all this from Alma 12 and 42 (and a few other scriptures).

Here I am still trying to teach something that needs to be caught.

Oh well, now you have more ammunition.

[Vanhin]

Justice,

My last post explains it all, and I feel like maybe you are missing my point. So here it is again, rendered slightly different.

Having agency does not mean instant access to everything.

Adam did not have direct access to the tree of life after the fall because Cherubim and a flaming sword was placed there to guard against Adam or any one else who would reach forth and partake in their fallen state. That is a scriptural fact.

Even in the garden, before the fall, Adam had agency, and he chose to partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which was a transgression, and he knew that it would bring about the fall of man. After that, God prevented him from direct access to the tree of life, lest he should live forever in his sins, which would make God a liar. Of course Satan would have wanted that to happen... Obviously...

But even after the fall Adam had a choice to partake of the tree of life, but not directly, he had to first be redeemed from the fall. But, like us he had access to the tree of life, through the merits of Jesus Christ. Adam did those things that he needed to do to become clean, and was redeemed from the fall, and thus had access to the tree of life again. That is what Moses 6 is all about. And he was commanded to teach his posterity the way so that they could also be redeemed. The way is the principles and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

So, even in that one thing Adam still had agency, unless you think agency necessarily means instant access to whatever you want. But no matter how you dice it, Adam was prevented from instant access to the tree of life after he fell, but he had access to it through the gospel. That's what our religion teaches us in plain words.

Now, whether all that proves that Adam was born on another planet and brought here, as Brigham Young (and others) have opined, I don't really know. But if Adam was born, and not created some other way, it was to human parents, not to lower forms of life. So, President Young's opinion makes sense to me. Adam's body is not a direct offspring of God the Father either, since that would mean Jesus Christ is not the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Hemidakota]

...have bellybuttons?

We know Christ did, while on Earth, since he was born of Mary.

We also do, too. And while we are made in the image of God, Christ and God look the same.

But the bellybutton is nothing more than a scar. We are told that our bodies will be perfect, without scars, in the resurrection.

I also understand that Adam and Eve had perfect bodies in the garden.

So considering all these things... did they have belly buttons??

Yes but no with spirit children.

[Vanhin]

I tend to think that God finds beauty in uniformity. I've never read a scripture or heard a prophet say anything to the effect of, "be whatever you want to be, make sure you are different than your neighbor." If anything, the message is to be like our savior, which is one thing.

See, this is not going to work. I have never made the claim that there are scriptures that say "be whatever you want to be, make sure you are different than your neighbor"?

I am however saying that you are already unique. If you could see your spirit, you would see that it does not look exactly like everyone else, and you would see that your body has taken on the same identifying characteristics. In the resurrection, you are going to receive the exact same body, only it will be glorified and perfect. Not only will you keep your personality, you are going have your individuality.

And death is not the permanent annihilation of the human personality and individuality! President Brigham Young wisely declared that the preservation of human intelligence and individuality through the Atonement and resurrection “is the greatest gift that ever was bestowed on mankind.” (Journal of Discourses, 5:53.) (LDS.org - Ensign Article - Shine As Lights in the World, Elder Maxwell)

Regards,

Vanhin

[Seminarysnoozer]

See, this is not going to work. I have never made the claim that there are scriptures that say "be whatever you want to be, make sure you are different than your neighbor"?

I am however saying that you are already unique. If you could see your spirit, you would see that it does not look exactly like everyone else, and you would see that your body has taken on the same identifying characteristics. In the resurrection, you are going to receive the exact same body, only it will be glorified and perfect. Not only will you keep your personality, you are going have your individuality.

And death is not the permanent annihilation of the human personality and individuality! President Brigham Young wisely declared that the preservation of human intelligence and individuality through the Atonement and resurrection “is the greatest gift that ever was bestowed on mankind.” (Journal of Discourses, 5:53.) (LDS.org - Ensign Article - Shine As Lights in the World, Elder Maxwell)

Regards,

Vanhin

I'm sorry if it came across that way, I know you weren't making that claim. I am saying the scriptures and the prophets do not suggest that our goal is to remain as unique and distinguished from others. The closer we come to our goal the more similar we are. Don't you think?

We are not automatically there when we die, there is still a lot of work to do. That is why Brigham Young made that statement, we don't all become "one with Jesus" as many religions claim, we maintain our own identity. But, still our goal is to become like Jesus and our Heavenly Father, it is one goal, one image. It is a blessing that it is still there when we die because we don't have to stop our progression and lose everything we have done thus far. The atonement allows us to continue with our progression. But that doesn't change the goal of the atonement.

If you were to encounter two individuals in the eternal distance from now that made it into the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom that were part of this world and here existed as distinct personalities and characteristics, I think you would have a hard time distinguishing the two eventually.

I am making the point that we will get what we want in the next life. If one's eye is single to the glory of God with all your heart might mind and strength then there is no determination to be anything else. That is the definition of having your eye single to the glory of God, for me. If I make my purpose the same as God's eventually I will be like God. If one is determined to be something unique and different from that one focus we should have our eye on, even though it may take many many years to get there, then God will eventually give you what you want, which is similar to the state we find ourselves in now, a telestial existence. If one is determined to be something unique and remain close to the cut down, primitive existence we find ourselves in now, then that, to me, is not having an eye single to the glory of God.

I think you would agree with me that in order to have Eternal increase, we need to make ourselves like God in every way. I believe if we made ourselves like God in every way, even if it took millennia to get there we would start to look and act like God is now, more and more to the point of making it hard to distinguish differences in personalities and mannerisms and actions, likes and dislikes, etc. There would be a narrowing, funneling effect to personality and action.

I believe there are some characteristics that make it nearly impossible to go down that road and that is the purpose of this life to separate the wheat from the tares. To have the opportunity to be like God requires complete obedience and sacrifice. Those are personality traits that one either has or not. If one has complete sacrifice of self then there is no self determination and no desire to be something uniquely different than our eternal goal which is to be like God. Yes, we will still maintain our differences, but I would propose that if a person in this life shows no desire to shake off that carnal drive to "be themselves" and to "be unique" at least in their desires than they would not have an eye single to the glory of God and therefore not really a candidate for that kind of eternal progression. The glory of the stars differs one from another. Even that is a joyful, beautiful place, so yes those differences are beautiful. But, for me, I am not setting my sights on that Kingdom.

[Vanhin]

I'm sorry if it came across that way, I know you weren't making that claim. I am saying the scriptures and the prophets do not suggest that our goal is to remain as unique and distinguished from others. The closer we come to our goal the more similar we are. Don't you think?

We are not automatically there when we die, there is still a lot of work to do. That is why Brigham Young made that statement, we don't all become "one with Jesus" as many religions claim, we maintain our own identity. But, still our goal is to become like Jesus and our Heavenly Father, it is one goal, one image. It is a blessing that it is still there when we die because we don't have to stop our progression and lose everything we have done thus far. The atonement allows us to continue with our progression. But that doesn't change the goal of the atonement.

If you were to encounter two individuals in the eternal distance from now that made it into the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom that were part of this world and here existed as distinct personalities and characteristics, I think you would have a hard time distinguishing the two eventually.

I am making the point that we will get what we want in the next life. If one's eye is single to the glory of God with all your heart might mind and strength then there is no determination to be anything else. That is the definition of having your eye single to the glory of God, for me. If I make my purpose the same as God's eventually I will be like God. If one is determined to be something unique and different from that one focus we should have our eye on, even though it may take many many years to get there, then God will eventually give you what you want, which is similar to the state we find ourselves in now, a telestial existence. If one is determined to be something unique and remain close to the cut down, primitive existence we find ourselves in now, then that, to me, is not having an eye single to the glory of God.

I think you would agree with me that in order to have Eternal increase, we need to make ourselves like God in every way. I believe if we made ourselves like God in every way, even if it took millennia to get there we would start to look and act like God is now, more and more to the point of making it hard to distinguish differences in personalities and mannerisms and actions, likes and dislikes, etc. There would be a narrowing, funneling effect to personality and action.

I believe there are some characteristics that make it nearly impossible to go down that road and that is the purpose of this life to separate the wheat from the tares. To have the opportunity to be like God requires complete obedience and sacrifice. Those are personality traits that one either has or not. If one has complete sacrifice of self then there is no self determination and no desire to be something uniquely different than our eternal goal which is to be like God. Yes, we will still maintain our differences, but I would propose that if a person in this life shows no desire to shake off that carnal drive to "be themselves" and to "be unique" at least in their desires than they would not have an eye single to the glory of God and therefore not really a candidate for that kind of eternal progression. The glory of the stars differs one from another. Even that is a joyful, beautiful place, so yes those differences are beautiful. But, for me, I am not setting my sights on that Kingdom.

I have my sights set on Exaltation as well, and as I have shown, personality and individuality are part of our eternal identity.

I can't help but point the following out. You said:

Yes, we will still maintain our differences, but I would propose that if a person in this life shows no desire to shake off that carnal drive to "be themselves" and to "be unique" at least in their desires than they would not have an eye single to the glory of God and therefore not really a candidate for that kind of eternal progression.

This is more of the same straw man that you have been building, and then attacking. I really wish you would stop that. I have not said that we should have "no desire to shake off [our] carnal drive" to be "unique at least in our desires", or that we should have anything less than "an eye single to the glory of God".

I am saying that those who shake off their carnal desires, and have an eye single to the glory of God, will also maintain their eternal individual identity and worth, even when they become one with the Father.

Our spirits have unchangeable identities, meaning if you look at them and talk to them, you will see that they are individuals. The bodies we take here, and when we receive them in the resurrection, take on the appearance of our spirits. Yes, we must seek to have Christ's image in our countenance, but that does not mean our eternal identity changes. Alma explains that the change that will happen, is in our hearts...

And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts? (Alma 5:14)

It is in putting off the carnal man, and developing charity that we become like God. Our hearts are changed, and then we will become begotten sons and daughters of God, as in heirs to the kingdom, and will be recognized as His own by our righteousness and purity.

Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen. (Moroni 7:48)

And when all is said and done, I will still be me and you will still be you, and when I see you I will be able to recognize you as the same person known as Seminarysnoozer in this life (on these forums ).

Not only that, we will have these very bodies. The very elements, though they might be swallowed up in the ground or in the scattered in the sea, they will be restored to us in an instance, and we will be as we are now, except in our perfect frame, and not even a hair of our heads will be lost (Alma 11:44).

This doctrine of the resurrection of the dead is most glorious. It is comforting, at least to my spirit, to think, that, in the morning of the resurrection, my spirit will have the privilege of dwelling in the very same body that it occupied here. As elders of Israel we have travelled a great many thousand miles in weariness and fatigue, laboring to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to the children of men. I would be very glad to have the same body in the resurrection with which I waded swamps, swam rivers and travelled and labored to build up the kingdom of God here on the earth. (LDS.org - Lessons Chapter - Understanding Death and Resurrection - Wilford Woodruff)

Like Wilford Woodruff, I don't see it as an evil carnal desire to have this very same body in the resurrection. But it really doesn't matter what you or I think, that is the reality of it.

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited August 17, 2010 by Vanhin

[Vanhin]

Before you go, this confuses me even more than I was about your position.

What do you mean "That really happened to Adam?"

What I mean is that Adam was there when the events of the fall occurred, and God placed Cherubim and the flaming sword to guard the way of the tree of life. The guard was placed there originally to keep Adam, the first man, from partaking and living forever in his sins. The allegories of creation and the fall that apply to the rest of mankind today, were more than allegory to Adam and Eve in the beginning.

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited August 17, 2010 by Vanhin

[Vanhin]

Seminarysnoozer,

There are three main doctrines that support the belief in individual identity among all resurrected beings, including those who are exalted. I have made constant reference to these doctrines, but I will now lay them out. As I have up to this point, I will provide references to support my belief.

The Eternal Identity of Spirits

Referring to Abraham 3:22-26, President Harold B, Lee said the following.

Now there are several precious truths found in that scripture. In the first place, we have just a hint, just a flash of what a spirit is. A spirit, did you hear Abraham saying, was an organized intelligence. This is the first beginning we have in our understanding of what a spirit is. It is an organized intelligence that lived as a spirit before this world was. Now what does a spirit look like? What kind of a conception do you have of that spirit? Well, the Lord has given through the Prophet Joseph Smith, an inspired answer, a part of which reads as follows: “That which is spiritual being in the likeness of that which is temporal; and that which is temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual.” Now listen, “the spirit of man in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast, and every other creature which God has created.” [D&C 77:2.] (LDS.org - Support Materials Chapter - Who Am I?)

Our spirit, as originally created, contains our identity and is in the likeness of our person. Our bodies take on the appearance and characteristics of our spirits, which are in perfect form as God designed them to be in the beginning. Our physical bodies in their mortal state, however, do not do our immortal spirits justice. Because of the fall of Adam, we have the seeds of death in us, and infirmities abound. We will all die, and be separated from our bodies.

In the Resurrection We Will Receive Our Own Bodies Back

And we will receive them as we laid them down. In other words, if you were old when you died, you will receive that old body again, and the law of restitution will immediately be in effect, eventually transforming your body to the original grandeur of your spirit. However, in none of it will our individual identity be changed. Those who are exalted "will know each other and enjoy each other’s society throughout the endless ages of eternity". Here's what Joseph F. Smith said about this.

We [will] come forth out of the grave, when the trump shall sound, and these our bodies shall rise and our spirits shall enter into them again, and they shall become living souls, no more to be dissolved or separated, but to become inseparable, immortal, eternal. 18

The elements which compose this temporal body will not perish, will not cease to exist, but in the day of the resurrection these elements will come together again, bone to bone, and flesh to flesh. The body will come forth as it is laid to rest, for there is no growth or development in the grave. As it is laid down, so will it arise, and changes to perfection will come by the law of restitution. But the spirit will continue to expand and develop, and the body, after the resurrection will develop to the full stature of man. 19

The spirit and the body will be reunited. We shall see each other in the flesh, in the same tabernacles that we have here while in mortality. Our tabernacles will be brought forth as they are laid down, although there will be a restoration effected; every organ, every limb that has been maimed, every deformity caused by accident or in any other way, will be restored and put right. Every limb and joint shall be restored to its proper frame. We will know each other and enjoy each other’s society throughout the endless ages of eternity, if we keep the law of God. 20 (LDS.org - Support Materials Chapter - Jesus Christ Redeems All Mankind from Temporal Death)

And the following Joseph F. Smith quote is priceless, in defense of my stance.

What a glorious thought it is, to me at least, and it must be to all who have conceived of the truth or received it in their hearts, that those from whom we have to part here, we will meet again and see as they are. We will meet the same identical being that we associated with here in the flesh—not some other soul, some other being, or the same being in some other form, but the same identity and the same form and likeness, the same person we knew and were associated with in our mortal existence, even to the wounds in the flesh. Not that a person will always be marred by scars, wounds, deformities, defects or infirmities, for these will be removed in their course, in their proper time, according to the merciful providence of God. Deformity will be removed; defects will be eliminated, and men and women shall attain to the perfection of their spirits, to the perfection that God designed in the beginning. It is his purpose that men and women, his children, born to become heirs of God, and joint heirs with Jesus Christ, shall be made perfect, physically as well as spiritually, through obedience to the law by which he has provided the means that perfection shall come to all his children. (LDS.org - Support Materials Chapter - Jesus Christ Redeems All Mankind from Temporal Death)

To Receive Christ's Image In Our Countenance

Means to develop Christlike character. David O. McKay taught:

What is the crowning glory of man in this earth so far as his individual achievement is concerned? It is character—character developed through obedience to the laws of life as revealed through the gospel of Jesus Christ, who came that we might have life and have it more abundantly [see John 10:10]. Man’s chief concern in life should not be the acquiring of gold, or of fame, or of material possessions. It should not be the development of physical prowess, nor of intellectual strength, but his aim, the highest in life, should be the development of a Christ-like character. (LDS.org - Support Materials Chapter - Developing a Christlike Character)

So when we talk about becoming like God, and receiving his image in our countenance, we are talking about the beauty of Godlike character.

Character is built by adherence to principles. Character grows from within just as a tree grows, just as every living thing grows. There is no outward thing to be put on to make yourself beautiful; [products from] the drug store [help], it is true, but it is only superficial and temporary. Real beauty, as character, comes from within, and that which contributes to strength of character is in compliance with those principles enunciated by the Prophet Joseph, and by the Savior Himself: virtue, uprightness, holiness—keeping the commandments of God [see History of the Church, 5:134–35]. 17

It is exactly what Alma taught, it is a change in our hearts.

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited August 17, 2010 by Vanhin

[Moksha]

Can you go to Kolob right now? No, you can't. Does that mean you do not have agency? No it doesn't. Like Adam, you maintain your agency in the sphere in which God has placed you.

Good point. Even the most zealous returned missionary at BYU is unable to fold space.

[Vanhin]

I'm sorry to keep hogging up all the space on this thread, but there are some really wonderful doctrines associated with the topic. While researching the topic I kept running into the doctrine concerning little children who die before the age of accountability. I love this doctrine. There are many quotes from different church leaders on the topic, but here is just a sample from Joseph F. Smith.

After the resurrection, a child’s body will grow to match the stature of the spirit.

Would we be satisfied to see the children we bury in their infancy remain as children only, throughout the countless ages of eternity? No! Neither would the spirits that did possess the tabernacles of our children be satisfied to remain in that condition. But we know our children will not be compelled to remain as a child in stature always, for it was revealed from God, the fountain of truth, through Joseph Smith the prophet, in this dispensation, that in the resurrection of the dead the child that was buried in its infancy will come up in the form of the child that it was when it was laid down; then it will begin to develop. From the day of the resurrection, the body will develop until it reaches the full measure of the stature of its spirit, whether it be male or female. If the spirit possessed the intelligence of God and the aspirations of mortal souls, it could not be satisfied with anything less than this. You will remember we are told that the spirit of Jesus Christ visited one of the ancient prophets and revealed himself to him, and he declared his identity, that he was the same Son of God that was to come in the meridian of time. He said he would appear in the flesh just as he appeared to that prophet [see Ether 3:9, 16–17]. He was not an infant; he was a grown, developed spirit; possessing the form of man and the form of God, the same form as when he came and took upon him a tabernacle and developed it to the full stature of his spirit. 5

Every spirit that comes to this earth to take upon it a tabernacle is a son or a daughter of God, and possesses all the intelligence and all the attributes that any son or daughter can enjoy, either in the spirit world, or in this world, except that in the spirit, and separated from the body, they lacked just the tabernacle of being like God the Father. It is said that God is a spirit, and they who worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth [see John 4:24]. But he is a spirit possessing the tabernacle of flesh and bones, as tangible as a man’s and therefore to be like God and Jesus all men must have a body. It matters not whether these tabernacles mature in this world, or have to wait and mature in the world to come, according to the word of the Prophet Joseph Smith, the body will develop, either in time or in eternity, to the full stature of the spirit, and when the mother is deprived of the pleasure and joy of rearing her babe to manhood or to womanhood in this life, through the hand of death, that privilege will be renewed to her hereafter, and she will enjoy it to a fuller fruition than it would be possible for her to do here. When she does it there, it will be with the certain knowledge that the results will be without failure; whereas here, the results are unknown until after we have passed the test. 6

The spirits of our children are immortal before they come to us, and their spirits, after bodily death, are like they were before they came. They are as they would have appeared if they had lived in the flesh, to grow to maturity, or to develop their physical bodies to the full stature of their spirits. If you see one of your children that has passed away it may appear to you in the form in which you would recognize it, the form of childhood; but if it came to you as a messenger bearing some important truth, it would perhaps come as the spirit of Bishop Edward Hunter’s son (who died when a little child) came to him, in the stature of full-grown manhood, and revealed himself to his father, and said: “I am your son.”

Bishop Hunter did not understand it. He went to my father and said: “Hyrum, what does that mean? I buried my son when he was only a little boy, but he has come to me as a full-grown man—a noble, glorious, young man, and declared himself my son. What does it mean?”

Father (Hyrum Smith, the Patriarch) told him that the Spirit of Jesus Christ was full-grown before he was born into the world; and so our children were full-grown and possessed their full stature in the spirit, before they entered mortality, the same stature that they will possess after they have passed away from mortality, and as they will also appear after the resurrection, when they shall have completed their mission.

Joseph Smith taught the doctrine that the infant child that was laid away in death would come up in the resurrection as a child; and, pointing to the mother of a lifeless child, he said to her: “You will have the joy, the pleasure, and satisfaction of nurturing this child, after its resurrection, until it reaches the full stature of its spirit.” There is restitution, there is growth, there is development, after the resurrection from death. I love this truth. It speaks volumes of happiness, of joy and gratitude to my soul. Thank the Lord he has revealed these principles to us. 7 (LDS.org - Support Materials Chapter - The Salvation of Little Children)

Vanhin

[Justice]

Having agency does not mean instant access to everything.

I'll divert the topic to agency and start a new thread.

Thanks for the discussion.

[Vanhin]

Thanks for the discussion.

Ditto.

[Seminarysnoozer]

And the following Joseph F. Smith quote is priceless, in defense of my stance.

What a glorious thought it is, to me at least, and it must be to all who have conceived of the truth or received it in their hearts, that those from whom we have to part here, we will meet again and see as they are. We will meet the same identical being that we associated with here in the flesh—not some other soul, some other being, or the same being in some other form, but the same identity and the same form and likeness, the same person we knew and were associated with in our mortal existence, even to the wounds in the flesh. Not that a person will always be marred by scars, wounds, deformities, defects or infirmities, for these will be removed in their course, in their proper time, according to the merciful providence of God. Deformity will be removed; defects will be eliminated, and men and women shall attain to the perfection of their spirits, to the perfection that God designed in the beginning. It is his purpose that men and women, his children, born to become heirs of God, and joint heirs with Jesus Christ, shall be made perfect, physically as well as spiritually, through obedience to the law by which he has provided the means that perfection shall come to all his children. (LDS.org - Support Materials Chapter - Jesus Christ Redeems All Mankind from Temporal Death)

Vanhin, I appreciate your responses and your willingness to talk through this with me. Please realize that if I slip and say "you" when what I really mean is "a person" I am not trying to characterize your beliefs as a target for argument. I see you as having a strong testimony and knowledge of the gospel and I appreciate you letting me "talk out loud" to help me flesh out some of these things. This helps my understanding and hopefully others as well.

I like these quotes. I will have to ponder these more. The one from Joseph F. Smith is interesting because I don't think I have ever run across that one. It seems to suggest that there is a physical metamorphosis even after death and resurrection. "... scars, wounds, deformities, defects or infirmities, for these will be removed in their course". Maybe that is a way that both these conditions occur, maintaining temporal characteristics but over the course of time they fall more in line with a celestial being. I always assumed that being resurrected with a perfected body, never to be separated from that body meant that it didn't change over time. That would also explain why Jesus still have scars. It is possible then, over time, they will be gone. Interesting, thanks.

[Vanhin]

Vanhin, I appreciate your responses and your willingness to talk through this with me. Please realize that if I slip and say "you" when what I really mean is "a person" I am not trying to characterize your beliefs as a target for argument. I see you as having a strong testimony and knowledge of the gospel and I appreciate you letting me "talk out loud" to help me flesh out some of these things. This helps my understanding and hopefully others as well.

Hey Seminarysnoozer, thank you for that graceful reply. I am actually really grateful for your part of this discussion. I have learned so many wonderful things while looking into this - many things I always kind of knew, but I see in a different light now. The below comment of yours being one of them.

I like these quotes. I will have to ponder these more. The one from Joseph F. Smith is interesting because I don't think I have ever run across that one. It seems to suggest that there is a physical metamorphosis even after death and resurrection. "... scars, wounds, deformities, defects or infirmities, for these will be removed in their course". Maybe that is a way that both these conditions occur, maintaining temporal characteristics but over the course of time they fall more in line with a celestial being. I always assumed that being resurrected with a perfected body, never to be separated from that body meant that it didn't change over time. That would also explain why Jesus still have scars. It is possible then, over time, they will be gone. Interesting, thanks.

Yes, the fact that "life" continues gradually is really wonderful to think about actually. There is no *poof* and I am perfect, which is sorta like what you were saying in an earlier post. So, in a way you were right about that aspect - that the change occurs gradually until we are perfected. I see old bodies, in their glory, regenerating until they are back in their prime (I read BY say it was like 33 or something), and children continuing to develop until they are equal to the stature of their spirits.

I think the only place where we have differred in our views has been in the end result, where I believe I will still look like me, only perfect, with all my nics and scratches and blemishes removed, and body parts restored. Chances are we will all look almost exactly alike after that, with only slight nuances of our individuality.

I like the doctrine of the resurrection. It is something to look forward to for sure. I like this story from Harold B. Lee:

“One day a young Sunday School teacher [came] to ask a rather interesting question that had been asked of her in her class the preceding Sunday,” said President Harold B. Lee to a congregation of Saints. “She explained that they were talking about the life before this, and this life, and the next life, and a young Sunday School student had asked, ‘The life before this came to an end when we were born into mortal life; this life comes to an end when we suffer mortal death; what shall be the end of the next life? Shall it be oblivion?’ The young Sunday School teacher said, ‘I don’t have the answer.’

“As I thought about it I remarked that we do use words rather loosely when we speak of the ‘life before this, and this life, and the next life,’ as though we were a cat of nine lives, when as a matter of fact, we only have one life. This life we speak of did not begin with mortal birth. This life does not end with mortal death. There is something that is not created or made. The Scriptures called it ‘intelligence,’ which at a certain stage in the pre-existence was organized into a ‘spirit.’ After that spirit had grown to a certain stature it then was given the opportunity by an all-wise Father to come into another stage for its development. It was added upon, and after having lived its span and having attained to its purpose in mortality, another change took place. We go, not into another life in fact, but into another stage of the same life. There is something which was not created or made, and something which does not die, and that something shall live on forever.” (LDS.org - Support Materials Chapter - Who Am I?)

Sincerely,

Vanhin

Edited August 17, 2010 by Vanhin

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think the only place where we have differred in our views has been in the end result, where I believe I will still look like me, only perfect, with all my nics and scratches and blemishes removed, and body parts restored. Chances are we will all look almost exactly alike after that, with only slight nuances of our individuality.

Thanks. I think I have a road block in my mind because I have a degree in biology and to me form affects function. To me, when we talk about appearance it is not just aesthetics or something pleasing to the eye. I still have a hard time, but am open minded about it, understanding how someone's eternal form is dictated by a series of free agency choices (one's ancestors) right or wrong even. It would seem that Adam and Eve, Jesus and Seth and a few others will get a body that will more closely resemble that of God's then the rest of us then. I thought some of the more valiant spirits were kept for the latter days.

I think I could settle for your last sentence there, even though I don't understand why. I still don't see the eternal value of us looking like we did here other than making the transition into the next life a little easier with familiarity. But thousands of years down the road, I don't see the value of maintaining this appearance. It's not like we are going to forget what we looked like or what it felt like, as if we have to keep some memento of this life.

[Vanhin]

I still don't see the eternal value of us looking like we did here other than making the transition into the next life a little easier with familiarity.

Because our identity is not a mortal phenomenon. What I am trying to point out is that the identity of our person is not from here. Each of us has a unique identity that is associated with our spirits, even prior to receiving bodies of flesh. The blemishes of mortality aside, the physical body has taken on the unique appearance of our immortal spirit and has added physical flesh and bone to our identity. Like putting on a tight glove, which conforms to the shape and characteristics of our hand.

I don't know why you think that identity is bad or that it should ever change. Our identity cannot be changed any more than our gender can be changed, which is itself an eternal part of our true identity.

If you could see all the spirits that are still waiting to enter mortality, you would see each as a unique individual, in the form of men and women, each with their own identity. They are in their prime, having developed over an unspecified amount of eternity until they have reached their full stature as spirits. When our resurrected bodies are regenerated fully, they will conform to the perfect likeness of our own spirit.

Deformity will be removed; defects will be eliminated, and men and women shall attain to the perfection of their spirits, to the perfection that God designed in the beginning. (LDS.org - Support Materials Chapter - Jesus Christ Redeems All Mankind from Temporal Death)

Obviously you have to come to terms with these things however you will, according to the direction your conscience takes you. But that is what I am saying in a nutshell.

Regards,

Vanhin