Do you admire ethical atheists?

[riverogue]

I mean those who live ethically and serve others without any thought of eternal rewards (Heaven, eternal marriage and families etc) or punishment whatsoever. That is awesome! So, what makes them surpass many recommend holding mormons, without having received the gift of the holy ghost? Do you think people with this selfless perspective is rarer or more common in their atheist demographic than in the LDS church? If an openly atheist person wants to serve within the LDS church what ways are there for him/her? Being of such caliber, would positions of leadership or instruction still be off-limits for them. Is it sinful for them to be a baptised as a closet atheist mormon for certain desired areas of service?

[Dravin]

Being of such caliber, would positions of leadership or instruction still be off-limits for them. Is it sinful for them to be a baptised as a closet atheist mormon for certain desired areas of service?

Said ethical atheist would have to lie to become baptized.

Edited December 4, 2010 by Dravin

[bytebear]

I think atheists can be moral, but that's really not what the gospel is about. It's a means to an end. "Men are that they may have joy." I believe a fullness of joy can only be found through a belief in God, and further an acceptance of Jesus Christ, and still further, a covenant to follow him via baptism, and then of course the temple covenants, eternal marriage and a sealing of posterity.

Yes, you can be moral and that is wonderful, but there is so much more to be had.

[Guest Godless]

I mean those who live ethically and serve others without any thought of eternal rewards (Heaven, eternal marriage and families etc) or punishment whatsoever. That is awesome! So, what makes them surpass many recommend holding mormons, without having received the gift of the holy ghost? Do you think people with this selfless perspective is rarer or more common in their atheist demographic than in the LDS church?

Many atheists are also self-identified humanists (or at least lean in that direction), so this observation makes sense.

[Wingnut]

I admire good people, regardless of religious (or otherwise) affiliation.

[Elphaba]

Said ethical atheist would have to lie to become baptized.

I think his context is an already-baptised member who goes on to become an atheist but still wants to contribute his/her service to the Church.

If so, I've known a few of those over the years.

Elphaba

[Last_Daze]

I certainly agree with Wingnut, in that I admire good and selfless people regardless of religious affiliation or lack thereof.

But I also feel that a person who no longer agrees with the most basic tenets and purposes of an organization should probably not be in that organization anymore. It is not a matter of them being kicked out, but rather of having the personal and intellectual integrity to leave of their own accord when they realize that they can no longer buy what the organization is selling. The church (any church) is about belief in G-d and living the Gospel through Jesus Christ; it is hard to believe that someone who doesn't believe in that stuff should want to be in the church.

Of course, it is wonderful if a person wants to be of service to people, and to give of him or herself in that way. So go join the Rotary Club, or the IOOF, or the Fraternal Order of Moose, or another one of the myriad fraternal service organizations out there. They won't ask you whether you believe in a deity or not, and you won't have to pretend that you do.

[Dravin]

I think his context is an already-baptised member who goes on to become an atheist but still wants to contribute his/her service to the Church.

If so, I've known a few of those over the years.

Elphaba

The "a" he has in there kinda muddles if he's talking about said atheist being baptized or if he's trying to use the phrase "a baptized member" and dropped a word. He'd have to give up the temple recommend. My thoughts on it is an atheist in a leadership position would have a hard time not having to either give or affirm testimony at some point. At which point, if they did not lie, I find it unlikely they'd remain or be placed in any future leadership situations. Then you have the more ethical murky area of say giving blessings by a power and in the name of someone you don't really believe in or responding to a question about how their relationship with the Lord is doing and responding it's doing fine (Under their breath: I get along great with imaginary people). I have a hard time seeing an atheist being placed in a leadership position in the Church without at some point having to be deceptive about their true beliefs.

I do know that non-members can work with the scouts, not sure if an atheist member would be put in that situation. I can see situations where a member atheist who is honest about his beliefs (Bishop, I lack a testimony but this Church is a good place and I want to help) can certainly serve and be fully ethical while doing so. Such as aforementioned scouts or possibly something like being in charge of building clean up or some other service. And there is no problem with teaching people car repair or some such.

The thing is when I think leadership I don't think such situations. I think Sunday School Presidencies, Primary Presidencies, Priesthood Quorum Presidencies, Relief Society Presidencies, Bishoprics, Stake positions such as the Stake Presidency or High Councilors and the like. Instruction makes me think of Quorum and Auxiliary class instructors, which are positions that call for bearing testimony at times of what they are teaching. An atheist cannot in full honesty bear testimony that a principle of the Gospel will bring people closer to God, that the Scriptures are the Word of God, that President Monson is a Prophet of God, or even that their primary class are children of God and that God loves them.

So I'm not saying an atheist who has been previously baptized when they are a member should be run out of the Church, or that they can't serve in all honesty or integrity. I just think to be in most leadership or instructing positions would require dishonesty on their part because part of those positions is bearing testimony and affirming things they don't believe to be true. Now if the Bishop is fully aware of their spiritual state, the atheist gives full disclosure, and the spirit so directs the Bishop to put someone somewhere then the atheist is certainly ethical in serving in such a capacity. But full disclosure precludes being in the closet, at least to your leadership.

P.S. This applies to more than just closet atheists. Though various closet religious folks would have less problems when it comes to bearing testimony of some things. Still, a closet pentecostal isn't going to be able to bear testimony of the Book of Mormon or of President Monson. And a Jew or Muslim wouldn't be able to bear testimony of Jesus Christ. The further removed you get from the LDS and Abrahamic religions the more pronounced that becomes.

Edited December 4, 2010 by Dravin

[Bensalem]

I mean those who live ethically and serve others without any thought of eternal rewards (Heaven, eternal marriage and families etc) or punishment whatsoever. That is awesome! So, what makes them surpass many recommend holding mormons, without having received the gift of the holy ghost? Do you think people with this selfless perspective is rarer or more common in their atheist demographic than in the LDS church? If an openly atheist person wants to serve within the LDS church what ways are there for him/her? Being of such caliber, would positions of leadership or instruction still be off-limits for them. Is it sinful for them to be a baptised as a closet atheist mormon for certain desired areas of service?

Do I admire ethical atheists?

No, I pity their choice of ignorance and lack of faith.

But I can still admire their good works.

[Traveler]

I mean those who live ethically and serve others without any thought of eternal rewards (Heaven, eternal marriage and families etc) or punishment whatsoever. That is awesome! So, what makes them surpass many recommend holding mormons, without having received the gift of the holy ghost? Do you think people with this selfless perspective is rarer or more common in their atheist demographic than in the LDS church? If an openly atheist person wants to serve within the LDS church what ways are there for him/her? Being of such caliber, would positions of leadership or instruction still be off-limits for them. Is it sinful for them to be a baptised as a closet atheist mormon for certain desired areas of service?

I admire anyone that stands up for a good cause. Lying about one’s understanding of G-d is not a good cause.

The Traveler

[Guest]

I admire many agnostics, but I do not admire any atheists. (I see a HUGE difference between agnostic and atheist)

The rewards for doing good exist both in the eternal, and in the present tense.... those who do not expect an eternal reward, can still recognize the immediate rewards of doing good...

Can you explain this one to me? I'm not sure how your 2nd statement applies to agnostics but not to athiests...

[Guest]

Do I admire ethical atheists?

No, I pity their choice of ignorance and lack of faith.

But I can still admire their good works.

I've met a lot of ignorant Christians in my lifetime that ignorance is not something I would attach to religious affiliation or lack thereof...

So yea, I wouldn't call athiests ignorant either.

[slamjet]

Question: So what higher power do Atheist have to answer to?

[Bensalem]

I've met a lot of ignorant Christians in my lifetime that ignorance is not something I would attach to religious affiliation or lack thereof...

So yea, I wouldn't call athiests ignorant either.

I should have been clearer. I was speaking of ignorance in regards to things spiritual.

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction." (Proverbs 1:7)

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding." (Proverbs 9:10)

"The fear of the Lord is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility." (Proverbs 15:33)

One cannot be taught if one denies the teacher.

Christians who deny living revelation are no more likely to receive knowledge than an atheist who denies God.