If A Tree Falls In The Forest...

[oaf1984]

This is my take.

It does make a sound. I don't think that a "sound" is not a sound if no one hears it.

basically a sound a vibration, the tree would make a vibration for sure, and therefore a sound.

How did such a "riddle" make it though the ages?

Perhaps I don't get it and am just stupid.

[Ray]

Heh, this reminds me of one of my favorite threads, which just so happens was started by me.

I hope you enjoy it. :)

The Power of a Witness

[StrawberryFields]

What don't you get ?

[oaf1984]

Or the "Can God make a rock so large that even he cannot lift it?"

I think that this one is far more intellegent.

My answer is that the said 'rock' would have to have an infinite mass, and would implode the universe with its infinite gravitaional pull. God loves us all too much to do that.

[Palerider]

If you choke a Smurf......what color does he turn?????...........LOL!!!!!

[StrawberryFields]

"You can't see the forrest for the trees"

[Christos]

One of my favourite riddles but one that I have settled on an answer for.

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there will it make a sound?

The true answer is in "what is truth?". A truth is what a person knows.

It is in the triangle of acceptance/knowledge/truth. If you drop one of the three elements truth cannot exist.

A tree can only make a sound if a person accepts the sound that the tree makes, this is through the recognition of the sound via the ear. The person would then have knowledge of the sound and it would be true.

The person however might hear a sound but see no tree, there is no proof of the tree. On Wednesday I was in Canterbury for a music audition and we heard a strange sound outside, the professor thought it was a tea trolley, it turned out to be a photocopier being moved.

So the person must first of all see the tree to know that a tree exists.

What you see is only true for as long as you see it. If you know where every item in your house is and leave it you assume it will be there when you go back, but that is an assumption, there is little to stop one of the objects being moved by either an intruder or natural consequences.

The answer to the riddle is that there is no tree.

Or the "Can God make a rock so large that even he cannot lift it?"

I think that this one is far more intellegent.

My answer is that the said 'rock' would have to have an infinite mass, and would implode the universe with its infinite gravitaional pull. God loves us all too much to do that.

God can make a rock so big that he cannot lift it BUT God is not stupid.

Why would God give a material object higher rule over himself?

Or the "Can God make a rock so large that even he cannot lift it?"

I think that this one is far more intellegent.

My answer is that the said 'rock' would have to have an infinite mass, and would implode the universe with its infinite gravitaional pull. God loves us all too much to do that.

But it wasn't said that the rock would be in the same physical universe as this.

Assumptions are the greatest flaw for too many philosophers.

Physically though your theory is likely to be sound.

Physists believe that the entire universe started off as one ball of matter and will end in one ball of matter, the big bang and the big crunch.

(for all you grammar freaks....I'm sorry about using a conjuntion at the start of a statement )

[Dr T]

Hi oaf1984,

Perhaps I don't get it and am just stupid.

I doubt you are stupid oaf1984. The question of the tree falling without anyone hearing, appears on the surface a dumb/inconsequential question to many. At the heart of that question though are many important questions and philosophical debate. I don't know how much reading you have done in philosophy but this question impacts many of the great thinkers throughout the ages. WIthout getting into it, this question (just to scratch the surface) calls into examination, rationalism vs. empiricism (or more accurately empiricisms). Rationalists such as Descartes, Spinoza, Leibniz, etc and empiricists such as Locke, Berkeley, and Hume wrestled with this exact conflict at the heart of their arguments. They were concerned with knowing.

This question, although apparently silly to some, has great implications to religious people. It calls into question our concept of "reality, matter, cause & effect, metaphysics (including the notion of substance, properties, essential properties, universals, particulars, etc) the importance of perception, thought, knowledge, innate ideas, belief, truth, justified belief", and so forth. I'll stop boring you now. I just wanted to let you know that there really is a lot to that question. Also, contextually, philosophers risked a lot to address these issues. Hobbes' writings for example were banned and threatened to be burned but more than that, the church wanted to burn him... (it all revolved around this and its implications about God)

Sorry if my rant bored you,

Dr. T

Hi Serg,

I see you as a thinker. It seems like it's uncomfortable for you to say that God can not do something. The whole God creating a rock thing is a "logical absurdity". Being absurd, its a non-issue. Are more realistic/logically sound approach is to think about "God can do all things that are logical for Him to do." It's absurd to think He can make a square circle, or create a rock too big to lift, etc. I want to explain what I mean by that word so you do not misconstrue what I'm saying. Absurd means:

1 : ridiculously unreasonable, unsound, or incongruous

2 : having no rational or orderly relationship to human life : MEANINGLESS; also : lacking order or value

Thanks,

Dr. T

[mom_of_jcchlsm]

God / rock:

I believe there is a limited (though very, very large!) amount of matter and God is able to manipulate it all, but He cannot create more than there already is. When the Earth was "created," it was really organized from the already existing matter.

Can God do anything He wants? Of course, but saying "anything He wants" is in fact a limitation. God desires only that which is good. He does not desire evil, and can not do evil. God operates within the laws He has established. Can he step out of the boundaries? No. Not because He is limited, but because He has limited Himself. Sort of like if you make a New Year's resolution (except God sticks to his).

[Dr T]

God can't do many things. Anything against His character is an impossiblity. He can't lie, cheat, etc.

Dr. T

[oaf1984]

I believe there is a limited (though very, very large!) amount of matter and God is able to manipulate it all, but He cannot create more than there already is.

Very interesting. I am not trying to argue this point, but to merely add additional insight, just insight, because I really have no clue of the reality of the situation.

To those who inheret the highest realm of Celestial glory, they are promised Worlds without end, one will assume that this process will continue and that there will be more and more new Gods to make new 'worlds without end'. If there is a continual increase of Gods making new worlds, and a finite amount of matter, however large, then one can assume a few possibilities:

1) The amount of matter will eventally run out

2) Old worlds are recycled into new ones (Unless of course when a world is done it will be renewed to its paradicisial glory forever)

3) There is really a "worlds cap" and that "without number" is just describing a huge number that we cannot comprehend.

I am sure there are more possibilities, but those are the ones that immediately come to my mind.

Also, does HF really have control of ALL matter? What about other gods?

That also begs the question, does HF really know everything? What about the thoughts of other gods?

[Christos]

God / rock:

I believe there is a limited (though very, very large!) amount of matter and God is able to manipulate it all, but He cannot create more than there already is. When the Earth was "created," it was really organized from the already existing matter.

Can God do anything He wants? Of course, but saying "anything He wants" is in fact a limitation. God desires only that which is good. He does not desire evil, and can not do evil. God operates within the laws He has established. Can he step out of the boundaries? No. Not because He is limited, but because He has limited Himself. Sort of like if you make a New Year's resolution (except God sticks to his).

God can't do many things. Anything against His character is an impossiblity. He can't lie, cheat, etc.

Dr. T

I beg to differ.

One of the greatest things about God is that he is the God of Creation. Through him all things were made, without him nothing.

God is not limited. Everything is within his almighty power, this is what makes him Omnipotent (all powerful).

For something to be good it must be from God.

For something to be evil it must lack the requirements of Good and is therefore sin (and sin leads to death).

God could gamble and cheat etc BUT as they would then be from God they would be therefore good.

We must not think of God from an earthly viewpoint.

It is written that a person is more likely to measure the entire seas with a single cup than to understand the mysteries of God.

The more you learn the more you realise you have to learn.

Ecclesiastes 1:18 (King James Version)

18For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow

I believe there is a limited (though very, very large!) amount of matter and God is able to manipulate it all, but He cannot create more than there already is.

Very interesting. I am not trying to argue this point, but to merely add additional insight, just insight, because I really have no clue of the reality of the situation.

To those who inheret the highest realm of Celestial glory, they are promised Worlds without end, one will assume that this process will continue and that there will be more and more new Gods to make new 'worlds without end'. If there is a continual increase of Gods making new worlds, and a finite amount of matter, however large, then one can assume a few possibilities:

1) The amount of matter will eventally run out

2) Old worlds are recycled into new ones (Unless of course when a world is done it will be renewed to its paradicisial glory forever)

3) There is really a "worlds cap" and that "without number" is just describing a huge number that we cannot comprehend.

I am sure there are more possibilities, but those are the ones that immediately come to my mind.

Also, does HF really have control of ALL matter? What about other gods?

That also begs the question, does HF really know everything? What about the thoughts of other gods?

Gods?

[Dr T]

Hello Christos,

If I offended you, I apologize. If you chose to hold the belief that God is able to do anything (even absurdities) then so be it. I would suggest however that you do some reading/education in logic and basic philosophy. I'm also curious as to what you do with verses like Jam 1:13, "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." Or Tts 1:2 "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began."

Respectfully,

Dr. T

[Christos]

It's ok, I think I was looking at it from a slightly different angle.

You appear to be looking at what the nature of God is and I was looking at what evil is.

I believe that Evil is the lack of Good and as all things that are Good are from the Lord nothing that he does can be wrong. To sin (among other definitions) is to go against the commandments or requirements of God, therefore to do something that is not of God.

Still it is not of us to determine what is and what isn't of God, this is one of the greatest mysteries.

One thing I do believe in is that there are two levels to truth, the celestial and terrestial. The truth of the terrestial is man made, built of assumptions and human theories, though it may hold fast for a long time it can be easily disproven by something very simple. For many years man believed the world was flat and that the horizon marked the end of the world, sailors would be terrified of falling off the edge. This was of course disproven by Colombos and earlier Galileo Galilee (though few believed him).

Celestial truth is (as the name suggests) of the Heaven's, it is infinite infalliable truth, a kind of truth that is true to the very meaning, unchanging and unchangable. On Earth we do not know much celestial truth, an example of this sort of truth is the existance of God. God exists and it is unchangable. This is not to get confused with Terrestial truth which is built upon assumption and faith.

Sorry for babbling on a bit. Of course what I have just written is a form of Terrestial truth which is personal, it is not infalliable and can be overridden by a more superior form of truth, usually in the form of a more sound theory. (it is 11:34pm here and I am sort of tired so I might have just typed a load of garbage)

I did do a lot of reading on Philosophy and logic about half a year ago but I have been focusing on my biblical studies recently.

I remember in my last vacation we were in a very tall hotel and I was in the bath reading Plato's Symposium when I heard a man run down the corridor screaming "fire!", this was at about 2am .

[Dr T]

Christos,

What's 2+2?

Dr. T

[Bones]

If you choke a Smurf......what color does he turn?????...........LOL!!!!!

LOL!!!!!

[Lindy]

<div class='quotemain'>

If you choke a Smurf......what color does he turn?????...........LOL!!!!!

LOL!!!!!

Darn... too quick for me there Bones.... I was laughing too!

Oh, and my guess? PURPLE!

And my answer to the tree question..... Yes it makes a noise! But only for those who are able to hear it. ( I do like that comment on the vibration though..... makes you think a little more :) ) and NO OAF.... you are NOT stupid.... it'a just a very good thought provoking question.... a lot of right anwers I am sure.

[Christos]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

If you choke a Smurf......what color does he turn?????...........LOL!!!!!

LOL!!!!!

Darn... too quick for me there Bones.... I was laughing too!

Oh, and my guess? PURPLE!

And my answer to the tree question..... Yes it makes a noise! But only for those who are able to hear it. ( I do like that comment on the vibration though..... makes you think a little more :) ) and NO OAF.... you are NOT stupid.... it'a just a very good thought provoking question.... a lot of right anwers I am sure.

That is what I said, the tree can only make a noise IF there is someone to hear it. (we are one in thought )

[Palerider]

I believe according to the Scriptures ....God created the earth through Jesus Christ......

[Christos]

So God would hear the tree fall because of his Omniscience but I think this question was aimed more at man.

It isn't actually a question about the tree or sound but about truth, what is truth? Is it true to a man if he doesn't know about it?

I believe not, truth is personal and human truth isn't entirely accurate. Everything we learn is an assumption.

There has to be a being there for the tree to make a sound otherwise nothing happened.

I believe the answer is "There is no tree".

[Dr T]

Hello Christos,

Hobbes, the philosopher would say what you said, "God would hear the tree fall." Just thought you would appreciate his writing.

Dr. T

[Christos]

But with God questions like this cannot really exist. We can simply say "God knows" which is all very good as it shows our dependance on God but it also removes any thought and narrows the answer to just followers of that God.

[Fiannan]

If a bear eats a hippy in the woods, does the bear's burp make a sound if nobody is around to hear it?

[Christos]

That is the same question.

The answer is that as there is noone there, the bears existance of a burp or even the bear itself doesn't exist.

[oaf1984]

That is what I said, the tree can only make a noise IF there is someone to hear it. (we are one in thought )

Why does hearing it require it to be a sound?

www.dictionary.com

"Vibrations transmitted through an elastic solid or a liquid or gas, with frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz, capable of being detected by human organs of hearing."

Notice that it has to be capable, but not actually heard to be considered a sound.

Do the senses have to setect something before it is a reality?

Does something not exist if one cannot see it?