Joseph Smith, A Martyr?

[M98Ranger]

To people of the LDS persuasion, Joseph Smith is known as a "Martyr". Sometimes however, people outside our faith will say that because of the well known fact that he fought, even shooting with a pistol and reputedly killing two mobsters in the process that the title "martyr" is unbefitting of Joseph. Indeed these same people say that a "real martyr" is someone that would WILLINGLY lay down his life for Christ.

However, seeing as the word martyr is derived from a greek word meaning roughly "witness" or thereabouts, and also knowing that many "witnesses" of the Gospel died for their beliefs, it is easy to see how the definition sort of changed over the years to refer to one who dies for a cause.

Some examples of Fighting martyrs in the Bible include the situation in 2 kings 1:9-12 where Elijah calls down some fire from heaven on soldiers that are sent to arrest him. Peter cut off a man's ear in the Garden of Gethsamane defending Christ.

Anyway, my point is that just because Joseph Smith was willing to protect himself, does not nullify him for the title of Martyr, but in my eyes, only adds to his heroism and courage. For heaven's sake, Wilford Woodruff himself surmised that the Prophet jumped from the second story window to his death knowingly and purposefully so as to appease the raging mob in the hopes that some of his friends might survive. I am sure that God was with him and guided him up until the very end about what he should do.

Anyway I was wondering what thoughts you all had about it. I actually got this idea through reading about it on FARMS.

[prisonchaplain]

To people of the LDS persuasion, Joseph Smith is known as a "Martyr". ... my point is that just because Joseph Smith was willing to protect himself, does not nullify him for the title of Martyr, but in my eyes, only adds to his heroism and courage.

IF he was a prophet, then he was a martyr, because he stayed steady in his cause, even though he had to have realized at some point it result in an early death. On the other hand, if he wasn't, well then, he was the same as many who have gone before and come since. How he gets evaluated on specifics like this depends on what the reviewers think of his claims.

[Palerider]

Yes.....he was a Martyr......Joseph knew this as he was leaving Nauvoo en route to Carthage.....when he turns for that last look at Nauvoo "The City of Beautifull" as he was on horseback...ke knew then he would not be coming back....

[Christos]

I believe a martyr to be someone who is willing to lay down his life for Christ.

Martyrdom is not accomplished through violence on the part of the martyr to be but as an act of persectution on the murderers.

Did Jesus fight the Romans?

[Outshined]

Yes.....he was a Martyr......Joseph knew this as he was leaving Nauvoo en route to Carthage.....when he turns for that last look at Nauvoo "The City of Beautifull" as he was on horseback...ke knew then he would not be coming back....

Agreed; of course he was a martyr.

[thebomb7652000]

yes he was a martyr.

[mom_of_jcchlsm]

Christos, I'm going to turn your quote against you.

Martyrdom is not accomplished through violence on the part of the martyr to be but as an act of persectution on the murderers.

Did Jesus fight the Romans?

I believe what you are saying here is that a person who fights to defend himself is not a martyr (you cite the example of Jesus Christ), and therefor Joseph Smith is not a martyr. Am I right?

But just before that, you say that 1) martyrdom is not accomplished though violence on the part of the martyr and 2) martyrdom is accomplished as an act of persecution on the part of the murderer(s). I separated your statement into two parts and will deal with each part individually. Is my division fair and correct?

Logically, A is not caused by B does not mean that if B, then not A.

That is like saying: Warts (A) are not caused by touching toads (B ) -- is not the same as -- A person who touches toads (B ) will not get warts (A). A person who touches toads may very well get warts, just not because of the toads!

A and B are independant of one another. A or B or A and B or niether A nor B are all valid combos.

martyrdom (A) is not accomplished through violence on the part of the martyr (B )

does not mean that

if there is violence on the part of the martyr (B ) then there is no martyrdom (A)

You also point out that martyrdom is accomplished as an act of persecution on the part of the murderer(s).

In effect, the murderer(s) make their victim a martyr by choosing their target based on religious beliefs. It's not something the victim does himself (other than being a vocal proponant of an unpopular belief); it's another person's action which makes for a martyr.

For instance, take a chunk of wood -- is it a carving? The chunk of wood can not make itself into a carving; only a specific kind of action by an outside force can make a carving out of the chunk of wood. Likewise, only a specific kind of action by an outside force can make a martyr of a man (or woman).

[Christos]

You are one clever mother! :)

I am almost totally baffled by your logical philosphical post .

If I were to go onto the streets and preach the Gospel but then was murdered by someone of an opposing religion wouldn't that make me a martyr?

If the assasins (lets call them) did not know of my motives for preaching or that I am christian it would just be murder.

I think what we need is a definition of martyr.

[mom_of_jcchlsm]

If I were to go onto the streets and preach the Gospel but then was murdered by someone of an opposing religion wouldn't that make me a martyr?

If the assasins (lets call them) did not know of my motives for preaching or that I am christian it would just be murder.

Now that I agree with! And it doesn't make a whit of difference whether you fight back or not.

[Ray]

I think what we need is a definition of martyr.

Here's what I got from dictionary.com, after simply typing the word, martyr:

1: one who suffers for the sake of principle [syn: sufferer]

2: one who voluntarily suffers death as the penalty for refusing to renounce their religion

So yes, Christos, if people killed you because of your principles or your religion, you would then be known as a martyr.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

To people of the LDS persuasion, Joseph Smith is known as a "Martyr". Sometimes however, people outside our faith will say that because of the well known fact that he fought, even shooting with a pistol and reputedly killing two mobsters in the process that the title "martyr" is unbefitting of Joseph. Indeed these same people say that a "real martyr" is someone that would WILLINGLY lay down his life for Christ.

The fact that Joseph fought back before being murdered is an indication--in my mind--that he was a martyr as far as voluntarily laying down his life. I forget who, but I read it in The History of The Church, that someone smuggled the pistol into prison to Joseph. Also, Joseph swore to those in jail with him that he'd protect them with his life.

What I take away then, is this:

Joseph could probably have kicked down his prison door with his and his fellow prison-mates' strength.

Joseph could probably have killed the guards stationed in or around the jail with the smuggled pistol.

Joseph could have escaped and lived in hiding in another state for some time.

BUT...he didn't. He stayed in jail, knowing his death was coming, and only when the lives of his friends were threatened did he put powder and ball between them and their assailants. I don't think for a moment he was trying to protect himself.

Of course in movies and tv shows there's always the famous line, "Killing him would make him a martyr" when bad guys discuss killing the protagonist. But in the truest sense, I believe that a martyr is someone who dies for the truth, the "right cause," not just any cause. And in that sense, Joseph Smith was a Martyr with a capital "m."

[Ray]

Nice addition there, ApostleKnight. :)

I'd have a hard time calling a man a martyr if he was killed simply because his religion was football, but I do think it would make at least a little bit of sense to call him a martyr if he was killed because he knew and stood up for the rights of everyone else who believed and wanted to know football.

[Dr T]

Hello ApostleKnight,

Nice to meet you. You said,

The fact that Joseph fought back before being murdered is an indication--in my mind--that he was a martyr as far as voluntarily laying down his life.

Fighting back, for whatever reason, does not fit with "voluntarily" laying down ones life. How do you equate fighting back as voluntary?

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Fighting back, for whatever reason, does not fit with "voluntarily" laying down ones life. How do you equate fighting back as voluntary?

Thanks,

Dr. T

My point was that he could've in all likelihood escaped with the aid of his friends and the smuggled pistol. But he didn't escape. He stayed in jail, knowing he'd die. That's the "voluntary" part. The fact that he only used his pistol when his friends were threatened, to me, simply highlights his loyalty and courage. It's as if he said, "Kill me and I won't resist, but try to harm my friends whom I've promised I'll protect, and the pistol comes out."

So if he hadn't promised his friends that he'd protect them from harm, when the mob tried to break down the door I honestly see Joseph standing and facing them without resistance as they gun him down. Interestingly enough, as it turns out, Joseph had means of escape (pistol), but didn't use it for his own protection...only for the protection of his friends.

Thus, he voluntarily laid down his life...in the process trying to save his friends, not himself.

[Outshined]

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Fighting back, for whatever reason, does not fit with "voluntarily" laying down ones life. How do you equate fighting back as voluntary?

Thanks,

Dr. T

My point was that he could've in all likelihood escaped with the aid of his friends and the smuggled pistol. But he didn't escape. He stayed in jail, knowing he'd die. That's the "voluntary" part. The fact that he only used his pistol when his friends were threatened, to me, simply highlights his loyalty and courage. It's as if he said, "Kill me and I won't resist, but try to harm my friends whom I've promised I'll protect, and the pistol comes out."

So if he hadn't promised his friends that he'd protect them from harm, when the mob tried to break down the door I honestly see Joseph standing and facing them without resistance as they gun him down. Interestingly enough, as it turns out, Joseph had means of escape (pistol), but didn't use it for his own protection...only for the protection of his friends.

Thus, he voluntarily laid down his life...in the process trying to save his friends, not himself.

Absolutely. He could have also run to avoid being put into jail when he knew he'd be killed there.

He suffered for his beliefs and died for them; of course he was a martyr.

[Palerider]

You need to read just how many shots he did fire.....then after reading....you will see more was done with a cane than a gun....and I believe Joseph Smith was not the one with the cane. One other point.....Porter Rockwell could not stand it that his friend and Prophet was in Carthage....he told Joseph if he gave him the word he would get enough men together and level Carthage....Joseph Smith told him no and not to bring anyone to Carthage.....those who don't want to believe he wasn't a martyr.....then don't believe it....I for one as I mentioned earlier do believe and know he was a Prophet of God and died a Martyr......and the people or mob......

[Dr T]

The definition of the word martyr: "to kill sb because of their religious or political beliefs"

was not difficult for me to understand. He was killed because of his beliefs.

I just didn't understand the "willingly" part.

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Palerider]

Biggest majority of the people that were after him wanted him to deny everything that happened to him......he would not deny anything over the years he served as Prophet....and yes he laid down his life for it.......for what he seen and what he did and what he believed......

[Guest ApostleKnight]

You need to read just how many shots he did fire.....then after reading....you will see more was done with a cane than a gun....

I'm not familiar with what cane you're talking about, but the History of the Church reports that three men were allegedly shot by Joseph Smith, and two later died of their wounds. As I said, he was going to fight like a lion for his friends, and he did.

[Palerider]

I believe it was Willard Richards who had the cane.....he used it to knock the guns away as they were pointed into the room.....never knocked but a few away......Hyrum was shot instantly by leaning on the door....

[begood2]

Joseph Smith was a martyr because he died for his religious beliefs.

[M98Ranger]

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Fighting back, for whatever reason, does not fit with "voluntarily" laying down ones life. How do you equate fighting back as voluntary?

Thanks,

Dr. T

My point was that he could've in all likelihood escaped with the aid of his friends and the smuggled pistol. But he didn't escape. He stayed in jail, knowing he'd die. That's the "voluntary" part. The fact that he only used his pistol when his friends were threatened, to me, simply highlights his loyalty and courage. It's as if he said, "Kill me and I won't resist, but try to harm my friends whom I've promised I'll protect, and the pistol comes out."

So if he hadn't promised his friends that he'd protect them from harm, when the mob tried to break down the door I honestly see Joseph standing and facing them without resistance as they gun him down. Interestingly enough, as it turns out, Joseph had means of escape (pistol), but didn't use it for his own protection...only for the protection of his friends.

Thus, he voluntarily laid down his life...in the process trying to save his friends, not himself.

Absolutely. He could have also run to avoid being put into jail when he knew he'd be killed there.

He suffered for his beliefs and died for them; of course he was a martyr.

Very good points Apostle Night and Mom of...Palerider and everyone else.. My thought is that he not only could have run, but he could have had the Nauvoo Militia protect him. If it was needed, but actually didn't Joseph travel to Carthage on his own on the basis that he was told that he would be put under armed guard awaiting a trial? I might be mixing up my facts, but the point is that he went to CARthage Jail via GOD's will ....that is he went WILLINGLY to Carthage instinctively knowing that he was, in his words..." walking as a lamb to the slaughter"(a SPUNKY lamb, but a lamb none-the-less). How could he be a man and just allow his friends to be killed, when he knew all along that it was part of the fulfillment of a prophesy given to him by heavenly messengers for him to be persecuted in that way?*RETORICAL QUESTION*....anyways, thanks for the comments all!

[Palerider]

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Fighting back, for whatever reason, does not fit with "voluntarily" laying down ones life. How do you equate fighting back as voluntary?

Thanks,

Dr. T

My point was that he could've in all likelihood escaped with the aid of his friends and the smuggled pistol. But he didn't escape. He stayed in jail, knowing he'd die. That's the "voluntary" part. The fact that he only used his pistol when his friends were threatened, to me, simply highlights his loyalty and courage. It's as if he said, "Kill me and I won't resist, but try to harm my friends whom I've promised I'll protect, and the pistol comes out."

So if he hadn't promised his friends that he'd protect them from harm, when the mob tried to break down the door I honestly see Joseph standing and facing them without resistance as they gun him down. Interestingly enough, as it turns out, Joseph had means of escape (pistol), but didn't use it for his own protection...only for the protection of his friends.

Thus, he voluntarily laid down his life...in the process trying to save his friends, not himself.

Absolutely. He could have also run to avoid being put into jail when he knew he'd be killed there.

He suffered for his beliefs and died for them; of course he was a martyr.

Very good points Apostle Night and Mom of...Palerider and everyone else.. My thought is that he not only could have run, but he could have had the Nauvoo Militia protect him. If it was needed, but actually didn't Joseph travel to Carthage on his own on the basis that he was told that he would be put under armed guard awaiting a trial? I might be mixing up my facts, but the point is that he went to CARthage Jail via GOD's will ....that is he went WILLINGLY to Carthage instinctively knowing that he was, in his words..." walking as a lamb to the slaughter"(a SPUNKY lamb, but a lamb none-the-less). How could he be a man and just allow his friends to be killed, when he knew all along that it was part of the fulfillment of a prophesy given to him by heavenly messengers for him to be persecuted in that way?*RETORICAL QUESTION*....anyways, thanks for the comments all!

He did not go by himself........Joseph and Hyrum Smith and John Taylor and Willard Richards and all together there were 15 people that went to Carthage....The four of them were put in jail.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

He may have written many great things, he may have began some honest and concise thoughts, but what he didnt do well is be faithful and it has been proven. The "Mobsters" you speak of were nothing more than men whose wives were taken by Joseph.

I'd be interested to know what historical sources you're drawing on in forming this opinion. I'm sure others would also be interested, so if it's convenient some time, please let us know the books and/or records which lead you to this conclusion. Thanks.