2nd Graders Having Sex In Class?

[Guest]

YOU GUYS...

Listen...

IF my kid was in that classroom, the FIRST THING he is going to do is RUN OUT of the classroom screaming and searching for the first available telephone!!! There WOULDN'T be a second incident. At. All. Because I will be there within 5 minutes interviewing EVERYBODY.

From what is stated in the article - none of the kids ran out of the classroom screaming... Why?

From another thing stated in the article - this seems to be the 2nd incident... Why?

And lastly... the children went ahead and did the acts... Why?

Regardless of the culpability of the teacher (and I'm not saying he is or isn't) - the FIRST PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE are the PARENTS of the children who got naked.

And... regardless of whether the teacher orchestrated the incident or not - unless he was not present in the classroom (and he better have a good explanation on why the students were left unsupervised) - he should be fired. And I'll even go further and say the principal also needs to be fired - for giving the opportunity of a 2nd incident.

End of story.

[RipplecutBuddha]

Okay, kids get naked and perform 'sex acts' on each other...not argued, correct?

1. IF the teacher was in the room from the start...why did he allow it to go this far?

2. IF the teacher was out of the room and came back to find this...why were the children left alone for enough time to pass for something like this to happen?

In either case, the teacher is at fault. In point 1. he is totally at fault for not controlling his classroom. In point 2. he is partially at fault for leaving the children alone/unsupervised, thus allowing the situation to occur, and then the parents are to blame for allowing/encouraging such behavior in 2nd grade children

Since this is the second time naked children have been a part of this teacher's classroom, there is a serious matter to address regarding the effectiveness of the teacher to establish control of his classroom to begin with.

Kids look for weak spots in any boundary, and if the teacher was too 'kid-gloved' with them to the point of not establishing himself as the authority figure in the classroom, then once more he is to blame for the situation in failing to do one of the fundamental parts of any teacher's job.

Then........

We can, and must, look at the possibility that the teacher is in fact encouraging this behavior in his classroom. This is the most distasteful and abhorrent of options for reasons we all agree upon. No matter how good we try to be as parents, we cannot control what teachers tell our children. We can only react to it. IF this is the case, I think the teacher's career is over due to being locked up for years. At least I would hope such were the case. As for the principal and/or vice principal, I would say they would be on notice, and if such happened again in their school...ever...they'd be out the door for incompetence.

Again, I'm just looking at the most likely of situations, this last one of which I seriously hope is not the case. I really hope it's just a matter of rotten parenting.

What we should take from this is

1. As parents we are never off-duty...even when our children are at school, we are still responsible for them, what they are taught, how they are treated, and how they behave.

2. The school system is responsible for teaching our children specific things. We are responsible for everything else.

[Guest DeborahC]

Hmmm.. well, all I can say is that if all the adults in MY life when I was under 21 got put in jail for things I snuck around and did that were wrong, I probably wouldn't have any family left on the outside...

To me, this can be MORE damaging by self-righteous SHOCK than by quietly redirecting 2 children who were doing what many kids do out of curiousity. Yes, they saw it somewhere.. perhaps walked in on parents? Who knows?

It's totally possible that they DID dream it up, in my opinion... After all, who gave the first two people in the world that had oral sex the play-by-play?

It's also possible that the child who was leading has been molested by someone else... this is typical behavior in that case. Perhaps instead of jumping on the teacher the police should be checking out the babysitters and/or siblings and/or uncles/aunts and/or neighbors.

Edited January 28, 2011 by DeborahC

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Ripplecut, the third possibility which you didn't list is that the teacher directed and encouraged it. There is an unfortunate trend of those sexually attracted to children seeking jobs that will give them access to children. It wouldn't change anything if he wasn't a registered sex offender. After all, every offender has their first crime that enters them into the system. I'm not saying that this is definitely what happened, but if you're listing possibilities, this is a viable one.

To me, this can be MORE damaging by self-righteous SHOCK than by quietly redirecting 2 children who were doing what many kids do out of curiousity. Yes, they saw it somewhere.. perhaps walked in on parents? Who knows?

It's totally possible that they DID dream it up, in my opinion... After all, who gave the first two people in the world that had oral sex the play-by-play?

It's also possible that the child who was leading has been molested by someone else... this is typical behavior in that case. Perhaps instead of jumping on the teacher the police should be checking out the babysitters and/or siblings and/or uncles/aunts and/or neighbors.

Deborah, many kids don't do this act out of curiosity, not at that age. I read some commentary by child development experts who find it highly improbable that these children did these acts spontaneously. 8 year olds express sexual curiosity by viewing each other's bodies and touching. In normal development, this is as far as it gets at that stage. You pointed out that sexual abuse would give them knowledge far beyond their years and you're right, there had to have been abuse. The only question is, when did it happen?

When this teacher is arraigned on charges of sexual abuse of minors, I'll try hard not to tell everyone I-told-you-so. My secret is simple. I just rolled the dice on the most likely senario.

[RipplecutBuddha]

Ripplecut, the third possibility which you didn't list is that the teacher directed and encouraged it. There is an unfortunate trend of those sexually attracted to children seeking jobs that will give them access to children. It wouldn't change anything if he wasn't a registered sex offender. After all, every offender has their first crime that enters them into the system. I'm not saying that this is definitely what happened, but if you're listing possibilities, this is a viable one.

Deborah, many kids don't do this act out of curiosity, not at that age. I read some commentary by child development experts who find it highly improbable that these children did these acts spontaneously. 8 year olds express sexual curiosity by viewing each other's bodies and touching. In normal development, this is as far as it gets at that stage. You pointed out that sexual abuse would give them knowledge far beyond their years and you're right, there had to have been abuse. The only question is, when did it happen?

When this teacher is arraigned on charges of sexual abuse of minors, I'll try hard not to tell everyone I-told-you-so. My secret is simple. I just rolled the dice on the most likely senario.

I did address it, but I may not have drawn as much attention to it as I could have...allow me to quote myself here;

We can, and must, look at the possibility that the teacher is in fact encouraging this behavior in his classroom. This is the most distasteful and abhorrent of options for reasons we all agree upon. No matter how good we try to be as parents, we cannot control what teachers tell our children. We can only react to it. IF this is the case, I think the teacher's career is over due to being locked up for years. At least I would hope such were the case. As for the principal and/or vice principal, I would say they would be on notice, and if such happened again in their school...ever...they'd be out the door for incompetence.

Again, I'm just looking at the most likely of situations, this last one of which I seriously hope is not the case. I really hope it's just a matter of rotten parenting.

What upsets me about this is how little attention it's getting. There's no more shock and outrage over this kind of rotten filth anymore.

For those seeking to pass it off as 'kids just being kids'....are you prepared to defend the great moral slide downhill we've been riding for a few decades now? Just because it isn't jaw-droppingly shocking to everyone with a pulse and a brainwave anymore doesn't mean it's acceptable behavior...on any level.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

my apologies, I didn't see that in your post, Ripplecut. I keep checking for updates or followup articles, but so far nothing. Why am I so alarmed about this? Because I'm a student of history, and throughout history, every society that has failed to maintain its sexual ethic has slipped into spiraling depravity that eventually victimizes children. The gay rights movement balks at the notion that it has anything to do with sexual child abuse, but NAMBLA as well as other pederast advocacy groups that will soon spring up will use the same doors opened by the gay rights movement to gain acceptance in society. Planned Parenthood's recent "Youth Sexuality Institute" event encouraging children to explore their sexuality (and here we thought they just did abortions)

International Planned Parenthood Pushes Abortion, Child Sex at African Conference | LifeNews.com

including homosexuality, masturbation, various forms of sex, etc is part of a disturbing trend of revisioning children as sexual beings and sends the wrong message that sex is about pleasure rather than to create a family. Why are all these people salavating at children's budding sexuality? What kind of sickness is this?

And the public school system will be the primary channel for social experimentations of the sexual nature to be propogated on our children. Who could have known how right those parents were in the 70's who protested sex education in schools?

[RipplecutBuddha]

No worries from me about missing some of what I said...I tend to be long-winded and it interferes with my point sometimes

at any rate, I agree with you completely. While I understand and stand behind the idea of withholding judgement before the facts are in, I cannot understand how someone could not be shocked at this with the few facts that are in.

If this is to become the new normal, my heart aches for the pain and suffering that not only has already occured, but that is yet to come.

Our brothers and sisters still waiting to arrive in this life will be facing demons never before imagined, much less witnessed in action around the world. Dark times ahead indeed.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

BTW, that Mormon belief that spirits are called from heaven whenever a baby is conceived is a beautiful belief. I guess there's a certain continuity to it that just as Jesus was in heaven, came to earth, and returned to heaven, so do Christians. I'm guessing this means that you believe spirits are eternal both in past and future?

[Soulsearcher]

my apologies, I didn't see that in your post, Ripplecut. I keep checking for updates or followup articles, but so far nothing. Why am I so alarmed about this? Because I'm a student of history, and throughout history, every society that has failed to maintain its sexual ethic has slipped into spiraling depravity that eventually victimizes children. The gay rights movement balks at the notion that it has anything to do with sexual child abuse, but NAMBLA as well as other pederast advocacy groups that will soon spring up will use the same doors opened by the gay rights movement to gain acceptance in society. Planned Parenthood's recent "Youth Sexuality Institute" event encouraging children to explore their sexuality (and here we thought they just did abortions)

International Planned Parenthood Pushes Abortion, Child Sex at African Conference | LifeNews.com

including homosexuality, masturbation, various forms of sex, etc is part of a disturbing trend of revisioning children as sexual beings and sends the wrong message that sex is about pleasure rather than to create a family. Why are all these people salavating at children's budding sexuality? What kind of sickness is this?

And the public school system will be the primary channel for social experimentations of the sexual nature to be propogated on our children. Who could have known how right those parents were in the 70's who protested sex education in schools?

Just as a point of clarification. The gay rights movement doesn't balk at the thought of it's work being used to lead to child abuse, it just sees that trying to get equality under the law for two consenting adults is a very different subject all together. You'll also notice the majority of homosexual have denounced NAMBLA as well as barring them from all the functions they are able.

As for the article it seems the topic that were discussed covered a wide range of topics used to increase youth awareness to be able to make informed choices to avoid pitfalls that are common or becoming common to the culture. Part of the problem with not talking about taboo is that it remains taboo and people just hide what's going on. A great deal of Africa's AIDS issue is that for a great many of the population instead of actually getting education it's remained taboo and there are more myths than facts. Being the article didn't exactly cover what was said about the topics being discussed i think it's less than intelligent to assume what was said on those topics.

If you actually look at and read what the youth were working towards with the conference and why it was important to them I think you might have a slightly increased opinion of what the purpose of that particular event.

http://www.ippfar.org/NR/rdonlyres/46638184-2572-4381-83F3-DC3AA4CB6044/1334/AdolescentsandYouthReproductiveHealthRights.pdf

[Wingnut]

BTW, that Mormon belief that spirits are called from heaven whenever a baby is conceived is a beautiful belief. I guess there's a certain continuity to it that just as Jesus was in heaven, came to earth, and returned to heaven, so do Christians. I'm guessing this means that you believe spirits are eternal both in past and future?

I'm not sure what belief you're speaking of, because Mormons -- officially -- don't know when the Spirit enters the body.

[Gwen]

I'm not sure what belief you're speaking of, because Mormons -- officially -- don't know when the Spirit enters the body.

i think he's just talking about the fact that we believe in a pre-existence, that the spirit existed before conception. but i'll let him clarify.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

i think he's just talking about the fact that we believe in a pre-existence, that the spirit existed before conception. but i'll let him clarify.

Yes, that's what I meant. As a Catholic, I believe that God's plan for us has existed before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4), but our spirit is created at conception. Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not bashing your belief. As I said, I think it's beautiful.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Just as a point of clarification. The gay rights movement doesn't balk at the thought of it's work being used to lead to child abuse, it just sees that trying to get equality under the law for two consenting adults is a very different subject all together. You'll also notice the majority of homosexual have denounced NAMBLA as well as barring them from all the functions they are able.

And not to be misunderstood, I don't believe the gay rights movement is wittingly aiding NAMBLA and I know that they find the sexual abuse of children abhorant. My point is that depravity, like water, restlessly searches for lower ground. It will not be contained in the neat little picket fences we erect nor the signs saying, "go this far, but no further." Pederast advocacy groups will use the same tactics as the gay rights movement. Chalk this up as unintended consequences.

[Soulsearcher]

And not to be misunderstood, I don't believe the gay rights movement is wittingly aiding NAMBLA and I know that they find the sexual abuse of children abhorant. My point is that depravity, like water, restlessly searches for lower ground. It will not be contained in the neat little picket fences we erect nor the signs saying, "go this far, but no further." Pederast advocacy groups will use the same tactics as the gay rights movement. Chalk this up as unintended consequences.

Fair enough, though remembering that the gay rights advocates learned a lot of their tactics from other places as well. Civil rights movements, woman's right movements, political lobbyists ect ect. So really it's not so much the gay rights tactics as the tactics used by most any organization wishing to change perception and their social or political standing.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Fair enough, though remembering that the gay rights advocates learned a lot of their tactics from other places as well. Civil rights movements, woman's right movements, political lobbyists ect ect. So really it's not so much the gay rights tactics as the tactics used by most any organization wishing to change perception and their social or political standing.

I think the problem is in the two definitions of civil rights in the American political scene. On the left, civil rights involves an element of social reparations where a minority group gains a favored status to make up for historical disparities. Affirmative action is a good example of this. The other definition, one that I subscribe to and is actually in the Constitution is equal protection under the law. This grants no special rights to any race, gender, sexual orientation, or any other class. Everyone is equal under the law.

I can sympathize with gay rights when it comes to stopping hateful crimes against homosexuals because they're homosexuals. Nobody has a right to assault or kill others because they don't like their lifestyle. But that's as far as I go. When gays sue the Boy Scouts of America, a private organization, because they don't accept gay scout leaders, then a line has been crossed. When gay marriage advocates try to overthrow state laws defining marriage, which they have every Constitutional right to do, then a line has been crossed.

What is happening right now with gay rights isn't about civil rights, it's about a tiny minority trying to impose its will on the rest of society. It rings specious when the pitbulls of political correctness try to compare their agenda to historically worthy causes such as negro and women's suffrage or the religious freedoms of the early Latter Day Saints. Many in the real civil rights movement resent the gay rights movement donning the cloak of civil rights when far from being an oppressed class in America, they've become the bullies.

[Soulsearcher]

I think the problem is in the two definitions of civil rights in the American political scene. On the left, civil rights involves an element of social reparations where a minority group gains a favored status to make up for historical disparities. Affirmative action is a good example of this. The other definition, one that I subscribe to and is actually in the Constitution is equal protection under the law. This grants no special rights to any race, gender, sexual orientation, or any other class. Everyone is equal under the law.

I can sympathize with gay rights when it comes to stopping hateful crimes against homosexuals because they're homosexuals. Nobody has a right to assault or kill others because they don't like their lifestyle. But that's as far as I go. When gays sue the Boy Scouts of America, a private organization, because they don't accept gay scout leaders, then a line has been crossed. When gay marriage advocates try to overthrow state laws defining marriage, which they have every Constitutional right to do, then a line has been crossed.

What is happening right now with gay rights isn't about civil rights, it's about a tiny minority trying to impose its will on the rest of society. It rings specious when the pitbulls of political correctness try to compare their agenda to historically worthy causes such as negro and women's suffrage or the religious freedoms of the early Latter Day Saints. Many in the real civil rights movement resent the gay rights movement donning the cloak of civil rights when far from being an oppressed class in America, they've become the bullies.

Great, but they are using the same tactics they learned from all those other groups. You said that you would blame the tactics the gay rights people are using for pedophiles trying to advance their agenda, which isn't a fair statement exactly being it's the exact same tactics every other group has used to try and achieve their goals.

As for if it's civil rights or not I'm not going to get into it being i have a feeling you and i will never agree. What one sees as imposing their will is another person asking to stop being dismissed. The fact that you don't consider it a worthy cause doesn't mean it isn't. As for considering us bullies....well some have become that, but let me tell you i still tend to find myself on the bullied side more often than being the bully.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Great, but they are using the same tactics they learned from all those other groups. You said that you would blame the tactics the gay rights people are using for pedophiles trying to advance their agenda, which isn't a fair statement exactly being it's the exact same tactics every other group has used to try and achieve their goals.

As for if it's civil rights or not I'm not going to get into it being i have a feeling you and i will never agree. What one sees as imposing their will is another person asking to stop being dismissed. The fact that you don't consider it a worthy cause doesn't mean it isn't. As for considering us bullies....well some have become that, but let me tell you i still tend to find myself on the bullied side more often than being the bully.

I find that those who are quick to be offended see themselves as persecuted. Yes it is a matter of perspective, but perspectives don't always square with reality.

Maybe I should give an idea of what tactics I'm talking about. It's the "don't judge me, who are you to say who can love who, don't impose your values on me," and various other statements designed to stay the moral judgements of society. We have gone from homosexuals being arrested for sodomy in the 1950's to gay parades today where shameful sexual prurience is on display for all to see. The homosexual agenda is being taught in schools and universities, celebrated in movies, and defended in public discourse and yet they say they are still persecuted.

It won't be long before pederast advocacy groups donn the cloak of persecution themselves, appeal for public understanding of their alternative lifestyle, and use sharp statements to stifle moral criticism. What bothers me is how little outrage there is about this incident in Oakland. We've become inured to reports of female teachers having affairs with male pupils. It isn't shocking anymore. And the moral indictment which should come with swift exclamation when children are abused, will become just a little more sluggish. The voices defending the innocence of children will become fewer and will find dwindling audiences. Soon there will be no moral outrage at the sexual abuse of children. How do I know this?

History.

[Soulsearcher]

I find that those who are quick to be offended see themselves as persecuted. Yes it is a matter of perspective, but perspectives don't always square with reality.

Maybe I should give an idea of what tactics I'm talking about. It's the "don't judge me, who are you to say who can love who, don't impose your values on me," and various other statements designed to stay the moral judgements of society. We have gone from homosexuals being arrested for sodomy in the 1950's to gay parades today where shameful sexual prurience is on display for all to see. The homosexual agenda is being taught in schools and universities, celebrated in movies, and defended in public discourse and yet they say they are still persecuted.

It won't be long before pederast advocacy groups donn the cloak of persecution themselves, appeal for public understanding of their alternative lifestyle, and use sharp statements to stifle moral criticism. What bothers me is how little outrage there is about this incident in Oakland. We've become inured to reports of female teachers having affairs with male pupils. It isn't shocking anymore. And the moral indictment which should come with swift exclamation when children are abused, will become just a little more sluggish. The voices defending the innocence of children will become fewer and will find dwindling audiences. Soon there will be no moral outrage at the sexual abuse of children. How do I know this?

History.

One more sodomite burning in hell.

KILL ALL THE GAYS OUT THERE

The death penalty for being gay? This could be a good thing.

Pray for an earthquake in San Francisco. No more gays there and the rest may repent.

Very much agree with Jean-Claude Szizze and all gay haters. All you rotten gays out there, go and create your world and PLEASE leave us the F***ing alone. How easily you all have forgotten about Sodom & Gomorrah. Please read your bible (old testament) and be afraid of wrath from GOD.

sodomites were all killed before the coming of the Messiah. Not one sodomite walked the earth when Jesus was born. Heaven spoke.

These were some of the cleaner quotes i found while reading an article concerning the death of a gay rights activist in uganda. A pretty tame group of responses compared to the usual i've been finding, and yes some nasty ones fired back by the pro gay side as well. As you can see by some of them they were made by "good" chrsitian folk, while in profiles of a lot of the rest they make it clear they are strong christians and republicans. So i guess i wonder what my perception should be? These comments are value judgments that i don't want forced on me. Let them hold the values but honestly keep them to yourselves right? Exactly what you are asking us to do? The one thing that i've asked a lot of my more experienced friends is when did this really blow up and all of them have said the same thing on both sides " we escalated because they did" It's like the cold war, both side does so much posturing with out actually listening that it just keeps getting worse and each side up's the ante. Each side blames the other with out realizing they have their part to play it this joke of a fight but neither side will back down to have an honest discussion.

But now we are way off topic, so back on topic we go.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

But now we are way off topic, so back on topic we go.

That was the azimuth of my last post. I don't feel threatened by what consenting adults do in the privacy of their homes and anyone who hates homosexuals does not know God and cannot reasonably be called a Christian. What is it though that causes a society to hate their children? The Canaanites sacrificed their children to Molech, the Greeks and Romans made boys a commodity of sexual favor, and today the trends of Western society are falling into an all too familiar pattern of moral degradation. Perhaps some think I'm paranoid, exaggerating a few isolated events into imaginary pandemics. I tend to see myself as long sighted, using history as a prism by which to accurately predict the future.

[prospectmom]

The bottom line for me on this article and the opinions offered is the report and what is assumed by the forum starter are clearly two different things and the forum posters blown it so far out of proportion that although I m sure intentions are well meant being overzealous and supposing and assuming by forum poster and a few others could cause major negative consequences. I feel if you do not have the full story you shouldn't be so fast to jump to conclusions and judge. Bottom line that is it. STM you do not even acknowledge your mind is choosing to assume the worst possible and again might I add in never said the kids performed sex acts........ or were all naked.. Maybe you need to re read the article as I have several times.