2nd Graders Having Sex In Class?

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Outraged parents in Oakland, Calif., are demanding answers after learning that a pair of second-graders performed sex acts on each other in an elementary school classroom while a teacher was present.

A male teacher at Oakland's Markham Elementary School has been suspended with pay, Oakland Unified School District spokesman Troy Flint told KTVU. He did not identify the teacher.

Oakland, California, Teacher Suspended After Second-Graders Perform Sex Acts in Class

Extremely disturbing event here and everyone is SHOCKED that after kicking God out of school, something else moves in to replace Him. This is part of a trend where children are being sexualized using the public school system as a main conduit. Planned Parenthood's recent thesis on how sexuality should be explored in children as young as possible is setting the tone for the victimization of children. Dr. Laura was thought crazy when she first proposed that children are being sexualized so they can become sexually available to adults, but now she doesn't seem so crazy after all.

This is more than just outrageous. This needs to be stopped in its tracks.

[talisyn]

I have to respectfully disagree a bit. I don't think it's a lack of God in schools, but a lack of general morality in TV. The kids don't know the whys of sex, all they know is the whats. And they know it's something grownups do.

[prospectmom]

Wow it sounds like me it may be blown way out of perportion. Curiosity is one thing that can be handled in a positive way. It seems to me more of a parenting problem than a reflection on the school.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

I have to respectfully disagree a bit. I don't think it's a lack of God in schools, but a lack of general morality in TV. The kids don't know the whys of sex, all they know is the whats. And they know it's something grownups do.

Here's the problem. The whole narrative is being written up as natural curiosity, but 2nd graders expressing curiosity don't go right to oral sex. They play doctor, they look at each other's private parts, but that's as far as it goes. Here we have a class in which several students in a separate incident got naked in class. Don't believe the reports that they were only partially naked, all the clothes came off according to other sources. There is something foetid going on in this class and despite the running narrative, it is under the direction and supervision of that teacher.

And they know it's something grownups do

No, 2nd graders DO NOT know that grownups do this unless they have been sexually abused by being shown how to do this by grown ups. This isn't natural curiosity. This is adult driven pederasty.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Wow it sounds like me it may be blown way out of perportion. Curiosity is one thing that can be handled in a positive way. It seems to me more of a parenting problem than a reflection on the school.

How often do you think it's acceptable for a teacher to allow kids to get naked and have sex in class? How believable is it that the teacher was completely clueless as to what was going on? How much more likely is it that the teacher was encouraging this activity? 2nd graders are well aware of the taboo of nakedness in public and under normal circumstances would be terrified of being found unclad in school. It took some serious adult driven conditioning to get the kids to overcome this fear.

Don't get sucked in by the school officials' narrative. Be smarter than that.

[prospectmom]

I think you do not have the information to come to that conclusion. Becoming over zealous dosen't do any good when you are so sure of your point you can't even see that this may be something small that was blown out of perportion. It is easy to think the worst wow those evil schools. I think it is very negative and judgemental when all your knowledge is second hand and most likley more gossip then truth. This is a great possibility and our news services really like to get people riled up and you have givin them exactly what they want. Do you really think a Teacher would allow this kind of thing in their classroom ????

[MarginOfError]

Here's the problem. The whole narrative is being written up as natural curiosity, but 2nd graders expressing curiosity don't go right to oral sex. They play doctor, they look at each other's private parts, but that's as far as it goes. Here we have a class in which several students in a separate incident got naked in class. Don't believe the reports that they were only partially naked, all the clothes came off according to other sources. There is something foetid going on in this class and despite the running narrative, it is under the direction and supervision of that teacher.

The confusion between the sources makes it difficult to know what is true. Until the investigation is complete, I think it'd be foolish to put this all at the feet of the teacher. There are questions we don't have answers to, since we don't know how long the teacher has been teaching. If he's been teaching this grade for 20 years and this is the first incident, it would be hard to believe that he orchestrated such a thing. If he's got a record, it's more believable. If he's a very new teacher, then it's hard to tell.

No, 2nd graders DO NOT know that grownups do this unless they have been sexually abused by being shown how to do this by grown ups. This isn't natural curiosity. This is adult driven pederasty.

Or maybe they've witnessed their parents doing it (not abuse)

Or maybe they've seen pornography that a parent is watching (whether or not that is abuse can be debated).

But the point is, there certainly are ways that this behavior can become a curiosity without a child being abused. So again, more investigation into the facts is needed. I find the rash assignment of blame to 'godless schools' to be irresponsible and dogmatic.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Do you really think a Teacher would allow this kind of thing in their classroom ????

I think this is the more plausable explanation rather than, "I didn't see it when several students got naked, and then I didn't see it again when 2 students started committing falatio on each other." Given the facts we DO have, I don't think the most logical conclusions are being reached. I think a lot of you are believing the narrative rather than what's more probable.

[beefche]

I wouldn't be blaming the school except for not being aware this was going on and stopping it.

Look at television, videos, games, music, internet, etc. Parents are either too trusting or lazy to be vigilent on what their children are exposed to. My niece when she was in 3rd grade was allowed to watch rated R movies. I've known other parents that allow their kids to watch movies that were too adult for them or play video games that were too adult.

[prospectmom]

I think we just need to not assume the worst and start condeming with out total knowledge of the incident. Since the report has so many unanswered questions we cannot responsibly come to such rash conclusions. It is like when 10 people line up and a message is told from one end to the other the end message is most always soooo different from the first..

[MarginOfError]

I think this is the more plausable explanation rather than, "I didn't see it when several students got naked, and then I didn't see it again when 2 students started committing falatio on each other."

This would be a remarkable occurrence as the report states that one of the students was male and the other was female.

Given the facts we DO have, I don't think the most logical conclusions are being reached. I think a lot of you are believing the narrative rather than what's more probable.

That isn't what's happening at all, actually. Several of us have stated that there are other explanations and that we don't have enough facts to make conclusions. Hence the need for further investigation. The only logical conclusion to come to at this point is that there is insufficient information to come to a conclusion. Ironically, in your call for logic, you're doing the least logical thing by forcing a conclusion.

[Dravin]

That isn't what's happening at all, actually. Several of us have stated that there are other explanations and that we don't have enough facts to make conclusions. Hence the need for further investigation. The only logical conclusion to come to at this point is that there is insufficient information to come to a conclusion. Ironically, in your call for logic, you're doing the least logical thing by forcing a conclusion.

Data and citations of what actually occurred are of less interest to St. Michael then what he figures most probably occurred.

And perhaps the larger point as to why I resist citing bodies of data is that I find greater truth in what is probable than in data which is compiled; often to confound the probable and work toward less than truthful human agendas.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Data and citations of what actually occurred are of less interest to St. Michael then what he figures most probably occurred.

Are you now not being uncharitable and carrying over frustration from a different thread? What I said there doesn't apply to this situation.

The claim is being made over and over that we don't have the facts when in fact we have several facts that point to something being sorely amiss in that classroom and the teacher, one way or another, being responsible. To those so ready to take up his defense, would you not immediately pull your own children from that class even with only the facts at hand?

[Dravin]

Are you now not being uncharitable and carrying over frustration from a different thread? What I said there doesn't apply to this situation.

Nope. And it does apply. A willingness to create hypotheses and then isolate them against outside influence is pertinent to your behaviour in the thread, it explains why you don't feel waiting for more data to have a more accurate understanding of the events that (probably) happened is important.

Edited January 24, 2011 by Dravin

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Nope. And it does apply. A willingness to create hypotheses and then isolate them against outside influence is pertinent to your behaviour in the thread, it explains why you don't feel waiting for more data is necessity to have an accurate understanding of the events that (probably) happened is important.

I'm glad you understand my conclusion is probable, that would make you the first. The party line from the school admin that this was just spontaneous childish curiosity is of course improbable. 2nd graders don't strip down in class and perform sex acts because they're curious.

But in regard to your first point, I would reason that I'm the only one here (and now you) who's actually considering the facts that ARE in evidence.

[MarginOfError]

I'm glad you understand my conclusion is probable, that would make you the first. The party line from the school admin that this was just spontaneous childish curiosity is of course improbable. 2nd graders don't strip down in class and perform sex acts because they're curious.

But in regard to your first point, I would reason that I'm the only one here (and now you) who's actually considering the facts that ARE in evidence.

He wasn't saying that your conclusion was probable at all. In fact, he was agreeing with me, that we need to wait for more information before coming to a conclusion. But this little example of reading comprehension explains a lot of what you've already said.

[Dravin]

But in regard to your first point, I would reason that I'm the only one here (and now you) who's actually considering the facts that ARE in evidence.

Actually there aren't many facts in evidence, there are competing claims which one can weigh depending on their biases. Or is there a video recording of the class room that such was caught on that wasn't mentioned in the article? As far as my biases go I'm inclined to accept that yes, something sexual happened in the class room and yes, there was a teacher present. Beyond that though there really isn't much information about what actually happened.

So, no, I was not voicing agreement that the most probable happening is that the teacher orchestrated anything. My use of probably was because unless there were recording devices, confession of wrong doing, one (or a reliable witness) was there and observing, or one has a time machine to go back and observe we won't know for sure what actually happened.

Edited January 24, 2011 by Dravin

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Actually there aren't many facts in evidence, there are competing claims which one can weigh depending on their biases. Or is there a video recording of the class room that such was caught on that wasn't mentioned in the article?

As far as my biases go I'm inclined to accept that yes, something sexual happened in the class room and yes, there was a teacher present. Beyond that though there really isn't much information about what actually happened.

So, no, I was not voicing agreement that the most probable happening is that the teacher orchestrated anything. My use of probably was because unless there were recording devices, confession of wrong doing, one (or a reliable witness) was there and observing, or one has a time machine to go back and observe we won't know for sure what actually happened.

Most schools still haven't caught up with the 21st century yet and so there will likely be no footage. I am, however, disturbed that video and audio footage is now supplanting eyewitness testamony as a credible source. It used to be in court that a police officer's testamony was believed because police are subject to the highest standards in honesty and society places a certain amount of trust in their word. Now defense attorneys are demanding dash-cams and audio recordings and suggesting that the lack thereof to supplement the officer's report represents an insufficiency of evidence.

Cameras can be defeated, and if the teacher's conduct was indeed reproachable, you can bet there's no footage of it.

[MarginOfError]

Most schools still haven't caught up with the 21st century yet and so there will likely be no footage. I am, however, disturbed that video and audio footage is now supplanting eyewitness testamony as a credible source. It used to be in court that a police officer's testamony was believed because police are subject to the highest standards in honesty and society places a certain amount of trust in their word. Now defense attorneys are demanding dash-cams and audio recordings and suggesting that the lack thereof to supplement the officer's report represents an insufficiency of evidence.

Cameras can be defeated, and if the teacher's conduct was indeed reproachable, you can bet there's no footage of it.

I'm not. Have you seen the studies about how flawed memory is? About how eyewitness testimony can vary based on how the question is asked? Children are even more susceptible, and are easily coached into answers. Which is why it's so hard to know what really happened here. If some of the kids say there was partial nudity and others say there was total nudity, which group of kids is correct?

[Wingnut]

I am, however, disturbed that video and audio footage is now supplanting eyewitness testamony as a credible source.

I disagree. I am a photographer. One of the hardest things I have learned is to train my eye to not act like an eye. I can look at a scene, and take a really great picture of a family -- everyone smiling, gorgeous blue sky, scenic surroundings, and think it's the most perfect shot ever. When I upload the photo to my computer later, I notice that I accidentally caught the hood of my client's car (15 feet away from us) in the edge of my photo. The naked eye is trained to filter out what isn't relevant to a situation. A camera captures it all.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

If some of the kids say there was partial nudity and others say there was total nudity, which group of kids is correct?

Does it matter? Would you keep your child in that class if there was only partial nudity as opposed to full? That's my point. Every conclusion that can be drawn here is bad.

[Dravin]

Have you seen the studies about how flawed memory is?

Heck, I have first hand experience.

This past Christmas I was present when somebody kicked down the front door of the house I was in (I was there alone). Long story short I ended up telling a guy now standing in the landing that there was someone in the house (luckily he left without issue). But I was standing something like 6 feet away from him and looked at him for a solid 4 or 5 seconds in bright daylight. I could see him perfectly.

Guess what I could remember when the Cops arrived and asked me for a description?

Race: Black

Clothes: Red sleeved jacket with black torso, or a red jacket with a black vest over top.

They asked me some questions to try to jog my memory:

Age? Uh... early twentyish?

Height? Uh... kinda my height take 2 or 3 inches.

Hat? Don't remember.

Glasses? Don't remember.

Gloves? Don't remember.

Car? Didn't look.

Partner outside? Didn't look.

So after looking at someone in the exquisite mind boosting affects of adrenalin that makes time seem to stand still and lets you count the whiskers on someone's chin I was able to come up with:

Black guy, red sleeves, wasn't a midget, and wasn't old or prepubescent (Someone asking if they were going to catch the guy always made me chortle).

If you want something more pedestrian I just spent 50 minutes a couple hours ago staring at my Chemistry professor during a lecture. I couldn't tell you what color clothes she had on to save my life. Can't even tell you if she had on pants or a skirt (of course she was standing behind something).

Edited January 24, 2011 by Dravin

[Soulsearcher]

Does it matter? Would you keep your child in that class if there was only partial nudity as opposed to full? That's my point. Every conclusion that can be drawn here is bad.

While I have a lot of questions for the teacher and school I have many many more for the parents of the kids involved. I really do think right now the instinct to blame the school is a way of not really holding the parents accountable for their actual responsibility and placing it all on schools and teachers. Guessing and jumping to conclusions tends to be a silly and often detrimental course of action not only leading to making someone look silly but in some cases also leading to irreparable damage to either reputation or body.

[Dravin]

Does it matter?

It matters in knowing just what exactly happened. Thus the best we'll probably ever know is what might have happened with varying degrees of certainty.

That's my point. Every conclusion that can be drawn here is bad.

True, but the bad between something being orchestrated and a teacher who told the kids to amuse themselves while he read a PC Gamer during class time is a huge gulf.

[Soulsearcher]

So I do have to ask, do we know for sure there was a teacher in the room? As a kid and in my time working in schools there were many times that a teacher had to step out of the room. Dealing with trouble making students, dealing with parents, getting called out for reasons related to staff at the school ( directions to assistants, picking up materials, talking to principals, ect) Even my best teachers had to leave us alone now and then and every now and the best teachers i worked with had to leave their classes now and then.