Scouting and the LDS Church

[Backroads]

I'm not sure if this is a non sequitur or a strawman. Probably more on the non sequitur side of things.

Non-sequitar, but I stand by my rant. If you are not willing to do what you need to do for Scouts, don't join it. But don't complain how it's too expensive. Other people who are very poor managea to do it all the time.

Right now I don't have a son old enough to be in Scouts, but if I did, you better believe a $45 shirt would be out of my price range.

So when your son does enter Scouts if you choose to put him into it, are you going to buy him the uniform, maybe look for friends/neighbors/thrift stores for a uniform, or whine and complain about it?

By the way, I just wandered over to the Scout Store in my office... there isn't a single youth shirt for nearly $45.

I guess I still have a question; You are all saying it's too expensive, and to an extent I agree, but do you think it means LDS Scouters should not have to wear full uniform?

[Dravin]

If you are not willing to do what you need to do for Scouts, don't join it.

So when your son does enter Scouts if you choose to put him into it

Thing is the Church automatically enrolls the boys*, then you tie it into the youth program. So the boys end up part of scouting regardless of a desire to be so and then they end up, if they show up for all youth activities as is encouraged, showing up without uniform or any desire to earn badges.

I realize you don't think such should be the case, and you aren't talking about boys showing up out of uniform or not doing merit badges who aren't under the mistaken impression that they are the spitting image of an engaged scout, but it is part of the situation.

* There is probably parental paperwork that needs to be filled out so if one really wants to insist it can probably be avoided on an administrative level but I imagine most parents get handed the paperwork and told, "Fill this out and get back to me." so they do so as a matter of course.

Edited January 31, 2011 by Dravin

[Wingnut]

I don't think anyone here is saying that LDS Scouters shouldn't have to wear a full uniform. We're saying (as you are) that people complain about it, and that it's pretty expensive for a lot of people.

It's great that there aren't any shirts at that price in your store -- but that's what they were listed at in the link Dravin provided.

I don't yet have a son, so it will be many years before I'm in this position. Yes, I plan to have him in Scouting. As I've said before, my husband is very involved with Scouting, but not with an LDS troop. We probably won't be involved with one down the road, for a number of reasons I won't go into.

Yes, I'll probably whine and complain about the cost of the uniforms, but I'll get them anyway. When my son has outgrown them, however, I'll probably offer to donate or resell at a lower price to a newer scout coming in, to help relieve their financial burden. If more of that happened, many people would benefit from it.

[Backroads]

Thing is the Church automatically enrolls the boys, then you tie it into the youth program. So the boys end up part of scouting regardless of a desire to be so and then they end up, if they show up for all youth activities as is encouraged, showing up without uniform or any desire to earn badges.

I realize you don't think such should be the case, and you aren't talking about boys showing up out of uniform or not doing merit badges who aren't under the mistaken impression that they are the spitting image of an engaged scout, but it is part of the situation.

Oh, I do not think that should be the case, and I really do not like Scouting being so integrated into the Church youth program.

But the problem is when you do have parents/leaders/boys who do want to do all they can in Scouting without committing to much of it. Thus comes in the uniform problem. Lots of them do think they have the right to get away without a uniform.

What you and Wingnut have said is precisely one of the reasons I think the Church and Scouting should separate. Every other church around hosts voluntary troops. Why can't the Church be the same?

As for earning badges, I think that's what got me started on this rant. It should not be expensive to earn badges. Any troop that is making it pricey--in fact, making it cost anything in most cases--is doing it wrong.

You can argue that these kids have no choice because the Church automatically enrolls them, but from a Scouting perspective it just looks really really bad.

As for relieving the financial burden: it's possible. I know a lot of wards do uniform banks. Also one I've seen quite often... and I think it's the best way for cementing in the Scouting values... is have the kid earn money to buy it himself at some point.

Edited January 31, 2011 by Backroads

[mightynancy]

Backroads, the source of your frustration is the fact that we (LDS) just enroll boys who would otherwise have no interest in Scouts. If Scouting isn't a boy's "thing", he's not going to work hard to earn the money to buy a uniform, make the effort to wear it properly, engage in the less-exciting parts of Scouts, or adhere to Scouting principles. Alas, if you're LDS and carry a Y chromosome, you're a Scout whether you like it or not. It would be like a school putting every boy on the baseball team whether he likes it or not.

I know some units, like the one my parents live in, are very active and well-run. My stake isn't that way. The flaky approach has pretty much run my son off from any non-Sunday involvement with the youth programs. It's a pity, because he has loved being a Scout. We're shopping for another unit for him to join.

[Backroads]

Backroads, the source of your frustration is the fact that we (LDS) just enroll boys who would otherwise have no interest in Scouts. If Scouting isn't a boy's "thing", he's not going to work hard to earn the money to buy a uniform, make the effort to wear it properly, engage in the less-exciting parts of Scouts, or adhere to Scouting principles. Alas, if you're LDS and carry a Y chromosome, you're a Scout whether you like it or not. It would be like a school putting every boy on the baseball team whether he likes it or not.

I know some units, like the one my parents live in, are very active and well-run. My stake isn't that way. The flaky approach has pretty much run my son off from any non-Sunday involvement with the youth programs. It's a pity, because he has loved being a Scout. We're shopping for another unit for him to join.

Oh, yes, it is definitely the source of my frustration.

The thing is, there are many, many great LDS Scouters... who have adopted this philosophy that they can act and look just as lazy as the Scouts who were forced into it.

People in the church say... "Oh, my kid does not care about Scouting and neither do I, so we will participate as little as we can." Therefore, no uniform, etc.

People who are more interested see this and say "Oh, because this is an LDS troop, it's okay to get away with the bare minimum." Or even... "This is how we're supposed to look: a shirt and some swim trunks."

The result is some truly interested LDS Scouters who don't know any better because the church culture teaches it's okay.