Scouting and the LDS Church

[Backroads]

Just trying to get some opinions without really ranting:

What do y'all think of the Church's use of Boy Scouts as its youth program?

Part of me loves that immediate connection with the Boy Scouts, but I also think participation might be more genuine if it were optional.

[MarginOfError]

Hmmm...is this a topic I should get started on?

Let me just say this--I am an assistant scoutmaster in a troop sponsored by an Episcopalian Church. I have no intention of ever volunteering for an LDS troop.

[Dravin]

My objection with Scouts is it is conflated with Young Men's (I understand the intertwining is intentional). The runs into the situation though where if one isn't interested in scouts and wants to avoid it one ends up avoiding Young Men's. I know one can simply go and not bother about merit badges and the like but there is a certain pressure to be involve that can be uncomfortable. Which to be fair may be a representation of how my leaders ran things and not so much how things are supposed to be run.

[MarginOfError]

My objection with Scouts is it is conflated with Young Men's (I understand the intertwining is intentional). The runs into the situation though where if one isn't interested in scouts and wants to avoid it one ends up avoiding Young Men's. I know one can simply go and not bother about merit badges and the like but there is a certain pressure to be involve that can be uncomfortable. Which to be fair may be a representation of how my leaders ran things and not so much how things are supposed to be run.

No, I think it's a mormon culture thing. Eagle Scout is just another one of the items on the checklist that young men are supposed to do, and so it's almost become a metric to the leadership. That, I think, has created some problems.

[Backroads]

No, I think it's a mormon culture thing. Eagle Scout is just another one of the items on the checklist that young men are supposed to do, and so it's almost become a metric to the leadership. That, I think, has created some problems.

Very much! Bayden-Powell said the Star was a fine thing to reach, but suddenly that's no longer good enough. The best of the best, the Eagle, is now the mediocre.

Technically, the Church does not require Scouting to intertwine with Young Men's, but the Church does like Scouting so it's pretty much the exception that does not do Scouting. The church also encourages units to register their serving missionaries as Venturers--which to me is odd. Sure, you can earn a religious award for serving a mission, but that shouldn't be the focus.

In my area, too many church units don't want to fully participate in Scouting. They're always looking for loopholes. Scouting uniform is a joke.

[MarginOfError]

Scouting uniform is a joke.

What do you mean?

Oh, and try to be careful when talking about Scouting. I do love the program and think it has a lot to offer. When done well, it can produce some truly miraculous results. When done poorly, it's just a nuisance.

[Dravin]

What do you mean?

Oh, and try to be careful when talking about Scouting. I do love the program and think it has a lot to offer. When done well, it can produce some truly miraculous results. When done poorly, it's just a nuisance.

I think she's talking about LDS units not bothering to wear proper uniform for scouting activities. I know once I was of Scouting age almost nobody ever wore the uniform to scouting activities, rarely even the leaders.

[MarginOfError]

Oh. My mistake. sorry, Backroads

[Backroads]

It's all good. I have worked in Scouting for the past six years. And it really bugs me when troops show up refusing to wear proper uniform, or rich people complain about how much uniforms cost, etc. While the kids in non-LDS troops go out of their way to make themselves look good and respectable.

[mightynancy]

Don't get me started! My son is about to join a community unit because in my stake, once you turn 14 you're on your own. "Varsity" and "Venturer" my patoot. We have had awesome Scoutmasters for the 12-13's, but that's all.

I agree that it would be better if it were optional. As it stands, if you have a Y chromosome and you're LDS, you're a Scout whether you want to be or not. In other units, parents actively sign their kids up and one would assume they have "buy-in". We have many apathetic parents, a leader-go-round, and kids who don't care. I'd rather see a well-run YM program than a poorly-run Scout program. And I love Scouts.

I think we need to either do it, or not do it, but this half-expeletived stuff is for the birds.

/rant

[Wingnut]

a leader-go-round,

half-expeletived

I thanked your post, but these two deserved giggles.

Heehee!

[hordak]

Another problem i have encountered was in the "mission field" where wards cover larger areas it wasn't very practical.

Our young mens group was made up of ,2 guys from this town, another one from that town, one from 30 more miles down the road, one 2 cities to the north etc.

For mutual activities, like playing basketball or volleyball it was no big deal. When they turned mutual into boy scouts the ones interested in the program had been a part of established troops in their home towns, with local friends.

It was better, and more fun to be part of a local troop of friends you saw every day at school for the youth and more practical for the parents. Scouts killed our young mens program and IIRC after a few months of only 2 or 3 boys showing up they dropped it.

[Traveler]

For those of you that have not noticed the Boy Scouting programs in the USA have been under bitter attack for more than just a few years. The LDS church is the largest sponsor and largest source of boy scouts. This is not meant to sound prideful but the Boy Scouts of America would have folded without the support of the LDS. The highly criticized involvement of the LDS in the Boy Scouts is in my mind unwarranted. It is true that at least 80% of the wards would be better off in their young men’s program if we were to abandon the BSA - leaving them to fend for themselves.

I personally believe that the LDS involvement in the BSA is very inspired. I believe our efforts to be glue for young men of honor far beyond the doors of our chapels. The influence on young men today is frightening. I believe that as difficult as scouting seems to many members; what is lacked is the vision to understand how devastating it will be, even to our youth when boy scouting in America fails as a national program.

The Traveler

[xenic101]

I'd rather see a well-run YM program than a poorly-run Scout program. And I love Scouts.

I think we need to either do it, or not do it, but this half-expeletived stuff is for the birds.

/rant

Given the training opportunities and manuals, the wealth of assistance available, the well established program and support structure, you say your local ward's Scouting program is poorly run, yet you seem to think those same leaders could do better with a different program?

[mightynancy]

I don't know that it would be better-run, but I wonder if being tied to a program they don't love is *part* of the problem.

I think a huge obstacle for LDS units is the leadership turnover. Being a Scouter has a learning curve, and we don't tend to keep leaders in their position for long enough stretches of time. We have a newbie every other year, it seems, and we don't keep the old leader on to train the new as may happen in a community unit.

You have a point, with all the training available (we have a council office right here in town), I wonder why there are so many failing LDS units? We're in our Friends of Scouting drive, and it's dishonest to think that donations to it will help my son. I participate, because someone is benefitting, but it's not anyone over 13 in my stake.

[MarginOfError]

Given the training opportunities and manuals, the wealth of assistance available, the well established program and support structure, you say your local ward's Scouting program is poorly run, yet you seem to think those same leaders could do better with a different program?

No, not really. But by enrolling my son in a well run, community-based troop, I at least know he's participating in one solid youth oriented program. If the Young Men run a good program as well, that's just a bonus.

[Guest mormonmusic]

I agree with MOE. My son just turned 8 and if my wife wasn't the primary president, I'd have him in a community group.

One, I think exposure to a different community than the Church would be good for both him, and myself. Second, I know the community group leader and she says the leadership in the program is very stable. In our Ward, the bishop looks the human resource as transferrable on a moment' notice, so you have strong periods and weak periods all the time. I'd rather have my son in a group where the leadership is stable. Last of all, the time works better for me and I could be a heavily involved parent in a community group.

[mnn727]

I think a huge obstacle for LDS units is the leadership turnover. Being a Scouter has a learning curve, and we don't tend to keep leaders in their position for long enough stretches of time. We have a newbie every other year, it seems, and we don't keep the old leader on to train the new as may happen in a community unit.

Out Scout leader was just released after 14 years in the position, his assistant (who had been the assistant Scout leader for 7 years) was called to take over.

Takes a special breed to be a scout leader, but they should be in the position for many many years. Why are yours being released so quickly? Sounds like your Bishop was never a Boy Scout himself.

Edited January 25, 2011 by mnn727

[Wingnut]

Out Scout leader was just released after 14 years in the position, his assistant (who had been the assistant Scout leader for 7 years) was called to take over.

Takes a special breed to be a scout leader, but they should be in the position for many years. Why are yours being released so quickly?

I think perhaps it's a cultural thing. In a lot of places, people get released from their callings after a year or so, "because they've been in there so long already." Scoutmaster is also often thought of as a demanding and draining calling.

But I think the biggest problem is that it's a calling, not a volunteer thing. In a community troop, parents get involved because their kids are involved. They have a vested interest in the troop. They want to be part of it. They're in it for the long haul. In a ward, a bishop tries to think of who would be "good at" being Scoutmaster, when the person he calls might actually have no interest in it at all. When someone is assigned a task/job/position, they're less likely to put everything into it than they are when they sign up on their own. Attitude problems = high turnover.

[scdoyle]

My wife's dad was always involved in scouting when she was growing. Because of this he was always out of the home and she has come really resents the scouting program because of that. We do let our 8 year old go to scouts because he likes it, but we have never pushed it on him.

[Blackmarch]

Just trying to get some opinions without really ranting:

What do y'all think of the Church's use of Boy Scouts as its youth program?

Part of me loves that immediate connection with the Boy Scouts, but I also think participation might be more genuine if it were optional.

I"ve loved my time in the scouting program, and would do it over without a second thought.

[MarginOfError]

Out Scout leader was just released after 14 years in the position, his assistant (who had been the assistant Scout leader for 7 years) was called to take over.

Takes a special breed to be a scout leader, but they should be in the position for many many years. Why are yours being released so quickly? Sounds like your Bishop was never a Boy Scout himself.

That's the way it should be done.

Part of the issue, in my opinion, is that according to the handbooks, the young men presidency are supposed to be the scout leaders. Well, at least that was the case in the previous edition. The current edition has backed off of that a little bit. But it still suggests that the young men presidency should be scout leaders.

The problem I see with this is that when you consider Scoutmaster to be a calling, you tend to treat it like other callings. "A vacancy just opened in the elders quorum presidency, and the elders quorum president requested that we call the young men president as a counselor." And so they move the young men president, call a new one. The new president does a good job for about two years and then gets called into the bishopric. And so it goes on and on.

I very much appreciated the policy that was being pushed by my stake in Maine. The stake presidency was instructing bishops that when youth leaders are called--especially presidents--they should expect to leave them in those callings for seven years. About the only reason the stake viewed as a valid reason to make a change any sooner was calling the young men president to be the bishop, or a move out of the ward.

I was talking to my dad about it over the weekend and he asked me what it would take to convince me to volunteer in a Church sponsored troop. Among my list of requirements was that I refuse to accept a calling to be a scout leader; I am a volunteer. I would expect to hold another calling in addition to being a scout leader. And I don't stop being a scout leader until I decide to step down, or until the troop committee votes to fire me.

[Guest Alana]

Do boys start participating in scouts at 8? What do they do then? Meet monthly? Weekly?

I've been a member for almost 20 years and there are still so many things that I never realized. Only two years ago I found out there were Saturday evening sessions of Stake Conference. Someone needs to pay more attention:D

[MarginOfError]

Cub scouts starts at age 8. They typically meet once a month in a den, and then once a month in a pack (if I remember that right)

[Backroads]

For those of you that have not noticed the Boy Scouting programs in the USA have been under bitter attack for more than just a few years. The LDS church is the largest sponsor and largest source of boy scouts. This is not meant to sound prideful but the Boy Scouts of America would have folded without the support of the LDS. The highly criticized involvement of the LDS in the Boy Scouts is in my mind unwarranted. It is true that at least 80% of the wards would be better off in their young men’s program if we were to abandon the BSA - leaving them to fend for themselves.

I personally believe that the LDS involvement in the BSA is very inspired. I believe our efforts to be glue for young men of honor far beyond the doors of our chapels. The influence on young men today is frightening. I believe that as difficult as scouting seems to many members; what is lacked is the vision to understand how devastating it will be, even to our youth when boy scouting in America fails as a national program.

Oh, I believe it is inspired, but I don't think that inspiration has come down to the local units very well. Many of the leaders have no interest being in the program. Many of the leaders refuse to do Scouting correctly because it's too much of a hassle.

I don't know that it would be better-run, but I wonder if being tied to a program they don't love is *part* of the problem.

I think a huge obstacle for LDS units is the leadership turnover. Being a Scouter has a learning curve, and we don't tend to keep leaders in their position for long enough stretches of time. We have a newbie every other year, it seems, and we don't keep the old leader on to train the new as may happen in a community unit.

You have a point, with all the training available (we have a council office right here in town), I wonder why there are so many failing LDS units? We're in our Friends of Scouting drive, and it's dishonest to think that donations to it will help my son. I participate, because someone is benefitting, but it's not anyone over 13 in my stake.

Oh, working with the BSA, I can tell you right now hardly any LDS troops keep their leaders in long enough. We're in the middle of rechartering, and most wards have changed every single leader in their unit from the ones they submitted. A Scoutmaster is in there for a month or so, then is gone. My office is bombarded by the newbies who were never told by anyone in their ward what they were supposed to do.

It's the boys who wind up suffering.

Out Scout leader was just released after 14 years in the position, his assistant (who had been the assistant Scout leader for 7 years) was called to take over.

... how did that work out? How on earth did he pass the Criminal Background Check? Did the ward actually submit his registration, or is it one of those deals where no application was ever turned in and the BSA has no idea this man is partipating?