Will all life forms resurrect? Even those that seem to be a "terrestrial" formed creature?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Are all forms of life subject to resurrection? Here are a few references that make it seem that way but I don’t know if they are specific enough to include all “life forms” such as virus or bacteria etc.

___________

In 1909, the First Presidency (Presidents Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, and Anthon H. Lund), stated: “God … organized the earth, and all that it contains. … He made the tadpole and the ape, the lion and the elephant; but He did not make them in His own image, nor endow them with Godlike reason and intelligence. Nevertheless, the whole animal creation will be perfected and perpetuated in the Hereafter, … and will enjoy ‘eternal felicity.’” (See Improvement Era, November 1909, page 81.)

In the October 1928 general conference, President Joseph Fielding Smith said: “Death is not the end, neither of man nor of the earth. … The Lord intends to save … not only man … but all things which he has created. The animals, the fishes of the sea, the fowls of the air, as well as man, are to be re-created, or renewed, through the resurrection, for they too are living souls.” (See Conference Report, October 1928, pages 99–100.)

D&C 20:24 “For all old things shall pass away, and all things shall become new, even the heaven and the earth, and all the fulness thereof, both men and beasts, the fowls of the air, and the fishes of the sea;

25And not one hair, neither mote, shall be lost, for it is the workmanship of mine hand.

26But, behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, Michael, mine archangel, shall sound his trump, and then shall all the dead awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth—yea, even all.”

_______________

Virus in particular need a host, they live inside the cells of other creatures. There are some that are specific to humans. There are even some that are specific to blood. We say our perfected bodies will not have blood. So, if every Human immunodeficiency Virus our there is to be restored, where will they reside? There will be no CD4 T-cells around. Or Parvovirus B19 that is exclusive to humans.

What about biosynthetic creatures? Mycoplasma laboritorium or the version of Mycoplasma mycoides that was made with original synthetic DNA. These man designed creatures also get resurrected.

Or even simpler, what about man made breeds? Do they get resurrected that way or do they get resurrected the way they were originally created? Are labradoodles going to be resurrected as labradoodles or just dogs?

Of course, I don’t expect any specific answer to these questions but how one thinks about these questions may also affect the way they think about their own resurrection.

One possible application is how one thinks about creation. God created all the life forms before the fall of Adam and Eve. Everything that follows is corrupted. If we take away all the corruptions we are back to the original creations. Did God actually create an HIV virus that just happened to be hanging out until after the fall and then at some point jumped into human T-cells? Just like the thorns on a bush, are viruses considered, maybe, creatures of a terrestrial world? Did God spiritually create labradoodles and knew one day that we would breed them that way? Or is that considered just application of the corruptible parts of the dog? Likewise, did God know ahead of time that someone was going to create a synthetic life form, Mycoplasma laboritorium and made a specific spirit for that bacteria or is the resurrected form of that life form the original one cell life form created in the garden of Eden?

We say that God, of course, is the creator of everything we see around us. But in terms of the resurrection, the original creations before the fall would seem to be the target of "restoration". Or does the Mycoplasma Laboritorium exist in the after life as just that as there was nothing that proceeded it. Does the not 'one hair on the head will be lost' apply to the hairless cat?

I'm curious what others think about this, knowing the answer is really unknown. More, specifically what that means for your own resurrection. Thanks. (And sorry this is so long)

[mordorbund]

What a great question! When I think about other resurrections I think of animals, and I think of the earth (sometimes plants - not too often though. I hate plants. I've thought of turning vegetarian just so I can contribute to floricide). I've never thought of the smaller, creepy things. I'll start with animals, since that's more familiar territory.

First you should know that poodles were less valiant in the premortal existence. They were good enough to not be a cat, but not good enough to live with the dignities of other dogs. Their lot in life is harder, but they can still make it to doggy heaven.

In seriousness, with the clearly man-bred animals, I think the principle is that the resurrected animal body will start out looking like our Fifi, but will grow to the stature of the doggy spirit (assuming that same rule applies to animals as us). Now the root of your animal question is whether that doggy spirit was created already looking like earth-Fifi, or if it looked like pre-bred-Fifi (I hope you get what I'm saying with this). And I don't have a position on either side of the fence on that one. It's similar to that other post you had about what exactly do our spirits look like, and what exactly our resurrected bodies will contain.

Regarding diseases, I wonder if there is a celestial version of them, like the lion that isn't going to try to eat the lamb. I do think some bacteria will exist, like the ones in my stomach. I see it similar to how the earth will be resurrected and the righteous people that lived on it will also be resurrected and will still dwell on it.

[Seminarysnoozer]

What a great question! When I think about other resurrections I think of animals, and I think of the earth (sometimes plants - not too often though. I hate plants. I've thought of turning vegetarian just so I can contribute to floricide). I've never thought of the smaller, creepy things. I'll start with animals, since that's more familiar territory.

First you should know that poodles were less valiant in the premortal existence. They were good enough to not be a cat, but not good enough to live with the dignities of other dogs. Their lot in life is harder, but they can still make it to doggy heaven.

In seriousness, with the clearly man-bred animals, I think the principle is that the resurrected animal body will start out looking like our Fifi, but will grow to the stature of the doggy spirit (assuming that same rule applies to animals as us). Now the root of your animal question is whether that doggy spirit was created already looking like earth-Fifi, or if it looked like pre-bred-Fifi (I hope you get what I'm saying with this). And I don't have a position on either side of the fence on that one. It's similar to that other post you had about what exactly do our spirits look like, and what exactly our resurrected bodies will contain.

Regarding diseases, I wonder if there is a celestial version of them, like the lion that isn't going to try to eat the lamb. I do think some bacteria will exist, like the ones in my stomach. I see it similar to how the earth will be resurrected and the righteous people that lived on it will also be resurrected and will still dwell on it.

Thanks for your response. I thought there might be more interest in the topic by saying it this way ... but I guess not.

As you know from previous discussion, my feeling is that the majority of what we look like is based in corruption from the original version. Similar to the idea of breeding there is a lot that goes into the way we currently look that is due to genetic drift, mutation, bad habits, political evil (think of Hitler youth camps and genocide etc), possibly slavery, disease, weather, available food etc. All those things will affect the way we look forever? I don't think so.

The new ideas presented here, though, are two; 1. Are there some life-forms now that are just part of a Terrestrial, fallen world?

2. Can we separate what God created in the Garden of Eden from that which was "created" by the fall of Adam and Eve? I think most would agree that pre-fall Adam and Eve's bodies were different from their post-fall bodies. Wouldn't that be true for all animals and creatures?

3. (this is not new, I've asked about this before) The restoration of the body to it's original creation, depending on how one views the above points, would mean to bring it back to the pre-fall status. For man, there is only one model, one Adam and one Eve. For dogs there may be one model, male and female or there may be several varieties but not as many as we have now. For cats there may be a few varieties but not as many as we have now, etc. At least for man, though, we only know of one variety, Adam and Eve.

[Blackmarch]

Are all forms of life subject to resurrection? Here are a few references that make it seem that way but I don’t know if they are specific enough to include all “life forms” such as virus or bacteria etc.

___________

In 1909, the First Presidency (Presidents Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, and Anthon H. Lund), stated: “God … organized the earth, and all that it contains. … He made the tadpole and the ape, the lion and the elephant; but He did not make them in His own image, nor endow them with Godlike reason and intelligence. Nevertheless, the whole animal creation will be perfected and perpetuated in the Hereafter, … and will enjoy ‘eternal felicity.’” (See Improvement Era, November 1909, page 81.)

In the October 1928 general conference, President Joseph Fielding Smith said: “Death is not the end, neither of man nor of the earth. … The Lord intends to save … not only man … but all things which he has created. The animals, the fishes of the sea, the fowls of the air, as well as man, are to be re-created, or renewed, through the resurrection, for they too are living souls.” (See Conference Report, October 1928, pages 99–100.)

D&C 20:24 “For all old things shall pass away, and all things shall become new, even the heaven and the earth, and all the fulness thereof, both men and beasts, the fowls of the air, and the fishes of the sea;

25And not one hair, neither mote, shall be lost, for it is the workmanship of mine hand.

26But, behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, Michael, mine archangel, shall sound his trump, and then shall all the dead awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth—yea, even all.”

_______________

Virus in particular need a host, they live inside the cells of other creatures. There are some that are specific to humans. There are even some that are specific to blood. We say our perfected bodies will not have blood. So, if every Human immunodeficiency Virus our there is to be restored, where will they reside? There will be no CD4 T-cells around. Or Parvovirus B19 that is exclusive to humans.

What about biosynthetic creatures? Mycoplasma laboritorium or the version of Mycoplasma mycoides that was made with original synthetic DNA. These man designed creatures also get resurrected.

Or even simpler, what about man made breeds? Do they get resurrected that way or do they get resurrected the way they were originally created? Are labradoodles going to be resurrected as labradoodles or just dogs?

Of course, I don’t expect any specific answer to these questions but how one thinks about these questions may also affect the way they think about their own resurrection.

One possible application is how one thinks about creation. God created all the life forms before the fall of Adam and Eve. Everything that follows is corrupted. If we take away all the corruptions we are back to the original creations. Did God actually create an HIV virus that just happened to be hanging out until after the fall and then at some point jumped into human T-cells? Just like the thorns on a bush, are viruses considered, maybe, creatures of a terrestrial world? Did God spiritually create labradoodles and knew one day that we would breed them that way? Or is that considered just application of the corruptible parts of the dog? Likewise, did God know ahead of time that someone was going to create a synthetic life form, Mycoplasma laboritorium and made a specific spirit for that bacteria or is the resurrected form of that life form the original one cell life form created in the garden of Eden?

We say that God, of course, is the creator of everything we see around us. But in terms of the resurrection, the original creations before the fall would seem to be the target of "restoration". Or does the Mycoplasma Laboritorium exist in the after life as just that as there was nothing that proceeded it. Does the not 'one hair on the head will be lost' apply to the hairless cat?

I'm curious what others think about this, knowing the answer is really unknown. More, specifically what that means for your own resurrection. Thanks. (And sorry this is so long)

Yes everything will go through a resurrection- even the earth. All shall pass away and all shall be made anew.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Yes everything will go through a resurrection- even the earth. All shall pass away and all shall be made anew.

So, what will the laboratory man-invented creature Mycoplasma laboratorium be in it's resurrection?

[riverogue]

Im not sure how animals will be resurrected. When I'm fully resurrected into my original state, hopefully it will be as a furry naked pygmy. :) I wonder of what use animals physical and mental adaptations developed to maintain their place in the food chain will serve them if everything will be immortal. I'd accept reincarnation before resurrection for this reason. But I cannot say either is true. It may not be important though, if one is a humanist.

[Blackmarch]

So, what will the laboratory man-invented creature Mycoplasma laboratorium be in it's resurrection?

I can't see why not.

[mordorbund]

So, what will the laboratory man-invented creature Mycoplasma laboratorium be in it's resurrection?

I can't see why not.

So you think man-made creations have souls? would this include dolly the cloned sheep? What if we cloned a human?

[Dravin]

So you think man-made creations have souls? would this include dolly the cloned sheep? What if we cloned a human?

We clone humans all the time, they're called identical twins. We just don't do it on purpose. You may cry foul as we don't do it in a lab, but it and other asexually reproducing creatures (such as at least on species of lizard so it isn't just amoebas and the like) would be a demonstration to me that possessing a soul is not dependant on having unique DNA. We believe even trees have souls, does that mean that all those braeburn clones out there are soulless trees?

What is it about the laboratory insertation of genetic material as opposed to other biological mechanisms that would result in a soulless life? What if chromosomes were removed from a sperm cell and implanted directing into an egg, would the resultant child/whatever be soulless because a more mechanical means of delivering genetic material to the egg was used as opposed to a more biological one?

Edited January 27, 2011 by Dravin

[Blackmarch]

So you think man-made creations have souls? would this include dolly the cloned sheep? What if we cloned a human?

I believe everything has spirit, down to the atom, possibly even at a more elemental... at some point it will be resurrected one way or another.

I do not see why a cloned person or sheep would not be resurrected.

altho i'd have to say that neither example given so far has been a purely man made entity.

A joke i heard a while ago (but one that i think demonstrates a truth):

A scientist was chatting with god, at one point says "you know, we don't really need you any more because we can create things on our own, Like environments and inhabitants for them."

"Oh? ... Let me see you do this" says God.

So the scientist nods and sets about doing his work; he sets up a laboratory and gets his equipment ready. Finally he grabs a tool and goes to get a sample of dirt to start with, at which point God interrupts him and says, "Sorry you can't use that, you make your own dirt."

Edited January 27, 2011 by Blackmarch

[Seminarysnoozer]

We clone humans all the time, they're called identical twins. We just don't do it on purpose. You may cry foul as we don't do it in a lab, but it and other asexually reproducing creatures (such as at least on species of lizard so it isn't just amoebas and the like) would be a demonstration to me that possessing a soul is not dependant on having unique DNA. We believe even trees have souls, does that mean that all those braeburn clones out there are soulless trees?

What is it about the laboratory insertation of genetic material as opposed to other biological mechanisms that would result in a soulless life? What if chromosomes were removed from a sperm cell and implanted directing into an egg, would the resultant child/whatever be soulless because a more mechanical means of delivering genetic material to the egg was used as opposed to a more biological one?

And with the examples I gave, they actually formulated their own sequence of DNA and removing genes in the line up of that particular mycoplasma to form a new animal, a mycoplasma that doesn't exist in nature.

The bigger question, I suppose, is how far off is the animal kingdom now from the original creations of the Garden of Eden through the corrupting process of genetic drift, mutation, environmental factors etc. When we say the resurrected form will take it back to nothing lost, wouldn't that include all the changes back to the original, those that were in the Garden of Eden?

[bert10]

There is a clue about this in the Doctrine and Covenants. What will pass away and not be remembered no more ....is all things that did not come from the Lord.

bert10

What a great question! When I think about other resurrections I think of animals, and I think of the earth (sometimes plants - not too often though. I hate plants. I've thought of turning vegetarian just so I can contribute to floricide). I've never thought of the smaller, creepy things. I'll start with animals, since that's more familiar territory.

First you should know that poodles were less valiant in the premortal existence. They were good enough to not be a cat, but not good enough to live with the dignities of other dogs. Their lot in life is harder, but they can still make it to doggy heaven.

In seriousness, with the clearly man-bred animals, I think the principle is that the resurrected animal body will start out looking like our Fifi, but will grow to the stature of the doggy spirit (assuming that same rule applies to animals as us). Now the root of your animal question is whether that doggy spirit was created already looking like earth-Fifi, or if it looked like pre-bred-Fifi (I hope you get what I'm saying with this). And I don't have a position on either side of the fence on that one. It's similar to that other post you had about what exactly do our spirits look like, and what exactly our resurrected bodies will contain.

Regarding diseases, I wonder if there is a celestial version of them, like the lion that isn't going to try to eat the lamb. I do think some bacteria will exist, like the ones in my stomach. I see it similar to how the earth will be resurrected and the righteous people that lived on it will also be resurrected and will still dwell on it.

[Seminarysnoozer]

There is a clue about this in the Doctrine and Covenants. What will pass away and not be remembered no more ....is all things that did not come from the Lord.

bert10

Where is that, you have the section and verse?

[Dravin]

And with the examples I gave, they actually formulated their own sequence of DNA and removing genes in the line up of that particular mycoplasma to form a new animal, a mycoplasma that doesn't exist in nature.

I'm still not sure why soul and DNA are being tied like that. It'd say if it is alive it has a soul, doesn't matter if it was built through biological or other processes.

The bigger question, I suppose, is how far off is the animal kingdom now from the original creations of the Garden of Eden through the corrupting process of genetic drift, mutation, environmental factors etc. When we say the resurrected form will take it back to nothing lost, wouldn't that include all the changes back to the original, those that were in the Garden of Eden?

That's pretty much an unanswerable question.

If we run with the direction you are headed though all men will be resurrected to look just like Adam and all women to look just like Eve (who would look like Heavenly Father and Mother?). Personally I have no problems with there being variation within the realm of perfection/perfected. Someone with Adam's hair and eye color is no more perfect than someone who has a different hair and eye color or is say 2" taller and with a prominently cleft chin or what have you. Though certainly some changes we do consider bad and to be rectified such as trisomy-21.

Edited January 27, 2011 by Dravin

[Seminarysnoozer]

I'm still not sure why soul and DNA are being tied like that. It'd say if it is alive it has a soul, doesn't matter if it was built through biological or other processes.

That's pretty much an unanswerable question.

If we run with the direction you are headed though all men will be resurrected to look just like Adam and all women to look just like Eve (who would look like Heavenly Father and Mother?). Personally I have no problems with there being variation within the realm of perfection/perfected. Someone with Adam's hair and eye color is no more perfect than someone who has a different hair and eye color or is say 2" taller and with a prominently cleft chin or what have you. Though certainly some changes we do consider bad and to be rectified such as trisomy-21.

The only reason I am drawing that possibility between DNA and soul is to suggest a difference between the spiritually created creature and the corrupted DNA physical body here. The Trisomy-21 example is a good one. I don't think that individual's spirit looked like his/her body does now in the pre-existence. I have heard people assume though that they looked the same in the per-existence as they do here. Which would also imply they think they will look the same in the next.

On the far end of the spectrum it is easy to say no, the trisomy-21 body will not look like that upon resurrection. But in reality all of our bodies have been varied and changed, mutated off the original creation.

I also think "variety" is confused with having a number of different kinds of species of animals. If God felt there should be a variety of humans forms in the end I think He would have put more than one couple in the Garden. ... as he put some varieties of fish, birds etc, I am assuming. The "variety" for humans is something that happened after the fall, it is a terrestrial function, not a paradise, Garden of Eden thing. One supporting idea of that is that Eve was formed from a rib from Adam, metaphorically, but suggesting similar genes, similar appearance. If Jesus' resurrection reverses those things that were caused by the fall, I am assuming it will reverse that variety for humans too. All the post fall "creations" (if you want to call it that - as they were really created by the fall) are temporary states.

[bert10]

Trial by fire? Then the Resurrection for the earth. For the Lord's Spirit in its fullness is a consuming fire to them and those things that are not clothed with Light. Moses survived only because GOD raised him in glory. Yet the Scriptures said that it took Moses 3 days to stop glowing (emitting light from his body and had to wear a veil and stay in his tent until he stop glowing) I guess glowing in the dark is more real then people think.

Deuteronomy 4:24 - For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. The earth as already received it's baptism of water. What is left is it's baptism of fire and it shall die and be resurrected and all things that GOD created shall need to undergo the change or else it will not abide in the new Glory which is the fullness of the Light of GOD.

I do not want to go further into this line of reasoning so here are the verses.

D&C 29:23 - And the end shall come, and the heaven and the earth shall be consumed and pass away, and there shall be a new heaven and a new earth.

D&C 29:24 - For all old things shall pass away, and all things shall become new, even the heaven and the earth, and all the fulness thereof, both men and beasts, the fowls of the air, and the fishes of the sea;

bert10

Where is that, you have the section and verse?

Edited January 28, 2011 by bert10

[Seminarysnoozer]

Trial by fire? Then the Resurrection for the earth. For the Lord's Spirit in its fullness is a consuming fire to them and those things that are not clothed with Light. Moses survived only because GOD raised him in glory. Yet the Scriptures said that it took Moses 3 days to stop glowing (emitting light from his body and had to wear a veil and stay in his tent until he stop glowing) I guess glowing in the dark is more real then people think.

Deuteronomy 4:24 - For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. The earth as already received it's baptism of water. What is left is it's baptism of fire and it shall die and be resurrected and all things that GOD created shall need to undergo the change or else it will not abide in the new Glory which is the fullness of the Light of GOD.

I do not want to go further into this line of reasoning so here are the verses.

D&C 29:23 - And the end shall come, and the heaven and the earth shall be consumed and pass away, and there shall be a new heaven and a new earth.

D&C 29:24 - For all old things shall pass away, and all things shall become new, even the heaven and the earth, and all the fulness thereof, both men and beasts, the fowls of the air, and the fishes of the sea;

bert10

Are those versus talking about resurrection or are they talking about the cycle that Joseph Smith talks about, starting the whole process over again with a new Earth and new Heavens, the fullness thereof, like starting with a full deck of cards all over again, i.e. - the creation?

Side question; I don't understand why Moses would have to wear a veil to hide any light as the light you are talking about is not discerned by physical eyes. In other words, the unclean body is the veil anyways. All those that that light would need to be hidden from would not be worthy enough to see it in the first place, why would it be hidden by a veil then? The "light" you are talking about is not picked up on by photoreceptors in the retina of the human eye, you know that right? Spiritual eyes maybe but not human eyes, so this is not "light" like what we get from the sun. It is not "light" of that type. It is metaphoric "light".

[bert10]

You will not understand the post if you do not understand what happened to Moses. When we are in the presence of the glory of GOD our body needs to change. For it is written that no man (natural) has seen the face of GOD and lived. And this is true. The natural man cannot see the face of GOD in his glory and live if he is not changed into the Spiritual man. Only a man who have received the promises can survive the burnings of the Lord. The Light which Israel was afraid of...was Called the Shekinah which took 3 days for it to leave Moses. When we are in the Light as Moses was..we do not need to eat or sleep or do not get tired. For our cells becomes filled and are sustained by Light. A person receiving those promises permanently does not grow old, nor is required to eat or sleep.

Resurrection is about making all things new. The process is not started over again with this world. At the end of the Millennium there is a great war between the children of the Light and the children of darkness and it is in this final battle that this earth is destroyed and dies. (At the Second Coming this earth will be restored to the Glory it had in the days of the Garden of Eden.) But Jesus shall resurrect it..into the Celestial Glory. This earth belongs to Jesus and shall be the Mansion of Jesus.

The same power that is used for resurrection is the same power that is used to heal and to restore.

When Jesus came to Paul...Paul saw a great light just before He was blinded in the flesh. Ancients pictures of Saints are painted with a circle of light etc.

Exodus 34:35 - And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him

bert10

Are those versus talking about resurrection or are they talking about the cycle that Joseph Smith talks about, starting the whole process over again with a new Earth and new Heavens, the fullness thereof, like starting with a full deck of cards all over again, i.e. - the creation?

Side question; I don't understand why Moses would have to wear a veil to hide any light as the light you are talking about is not discerned by physical eyes. In other words, the unclean body is the veil anyways. All those that that light would need to be hidden from would not be worthy enough to see it in the first place, why would it be hidden by a veil then? The "light" you are talking about is not picked up on by photoreceptors in the retina of the human eye, you know that right? Spiritual eyes maybe but not human eyes, so this is not "light" like what we get from the sun. It is not "light" of that type. It is metaphoric "light".

[Seminarysnoozer]

You will not understand the post if you do not understand what happened to Moses. When we are in the presence of the glory of GOD our body needs to change. For it is written that no man (natural) has seen the face of GOD and lived. And this is true. The natural man cannot see the face of GOD in his glory and live if he is not changed into the Spiritual man. Only a man who have received the promises can survive the burnings of the Lord. The Light which Israel was afraid of...was Called the Shekinah which took 3 days for it to leave Moses. When we are in the Light as Moses was..we do not need to eat or sleep or do not get tired. For our cells becomes filled and are sustained by Light. A person receiving those promises permanently does not grow old, nor is required to eat or sleep.

Resurrection is about making all things new. The process is not started over again with this world. At the end of the Millennium there is a great war between the children of the Light and the children of darkness and it is in this final battle that this earth is destroyed and dies. (At the Second Coming this earth will be restored to the Glory it had in the days of the Garden of Eden.) But Jesus shall resurrect it..into the Celestial Glory. This earth belongs to Jesus and shall be the Mansion of Jesus.

The same power that is used for resurrection is the same power that is used to heal and to restore.

When Jesus came to Paul...Paul saw a great light just before He was blinded in the flesh. Ancients pictures of Saints are painted with a circle of light etc.

Exodus 34:35 - And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him

bert10

We are getting way off topic here, maybe a new thread for this topic would be good.

This raises the question then if the average person could see a transfigured person. This is what you are suggesting by Moses' glow. I think a more common perception is that if a person is transfigured they can communicate within the celestial glory of God as you are suggesting but then to come back to the terrestrial world there would have to be a change again back to that state. Do you know of any other examples of transfigured man revealing a higher glory to the common man? Either the common man is blinded or burned by that glory or they are not, I don't think you can have it both ways.

So, with that, I don't think the glow of Moses in that example is a transfigured state. I think it is the Lord responding to Moses' request earlier in that chapter to "walk amongst the people" as they were so wicked and worshiping idols. The Lord, of course, couldn't do that, like you say, they wouldn't stand a revelation of that glory, they would burn so instead the Lord gave them a sign that the commandments came from a divine source by making Moses' skin shine. His hands didn't shine, his countenance didn't shine, just the skin on his face according to the scripture. This was just for the benefit of the covenant people to help them take to heart the commandments given at that time. You interpreting more into that event, I don't think was the intention of that sign. It certainly wasn't the Light of God because that would have burned all the eyes of all that saw Moses through physical eyes.

[mordorbund]

Another example? Jesus was transfigured and seen by his apostles (they even grouped him with the messengers who visited - such was their awe).

[Seminarysnoozer]

Another example? Jesus was transfigured and seen by his apostles (they even grouped him with the messengers who visited - such was their awe).

Yes, so in that example the apostles were taken up to the mountain, kind of like the visions of the Kirtland Temple. So, likely the apostles were in a celestial setting and were enabled to see such a thing. In other words, it wasn't really through physical eyes that they saw those things. Also, note as with all other visions like that the raiment was also white and shining. Unlike the description of Moses, face was glowing that he could cover up with raiment.

I don't think the white, glowing descriptions are part of the human spectrum of detection with our retinas. But after the event the human mind has to describe what was experienced and so the description is that of "light" or "white". If one were able to see infrared for example you could try to describe it has light to someone who can't but really you would have no exact words for the sight or like Joseph Smith puts it; "whose brightness and glory defy all description". This is why most of those types of visions also say things like, a brightness that is indescribable, or never before seen. If it was just light, then that can be described but I think it is an attempt to describe something that only happens through "spiritual eyes" using "physical eyes" metaphors. In other words, it isn't really light, waves formed by photons.

Edited January 28, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer

[bert10]

I agree we are getting away from the main topic. Sometimes threads have a life of their own. The Bible is not about teaching the way of perfection because those who are on that road are taught of GOD. Jesus said clearly in the NT that no one comes to Him unless they have heard and learned of the Father.

As what I have said concerning being Born Again or being as John would put it..being "Born of GOD" is what I have received. Peter, John and James went with the Lord when Jesus had his meeting with Elijah and Moses etc. However, how you understand it ...is okay with me.

bert10

We are getting way off topic here, maybe a new thread for this topic would be good.

This raises the question then if the average person could see a transfigured person. This is what you are suggesting by Moses' glow. I think a more common perception is that if a person is transfigured they can communicate within the celestial glory of God as you are suggesting but then to come back to the terrestrial world there would have to be a change again back to that state. Do you know of any other examples of transfigured man revealing a higher glory to the common man? Either the common man is blinded or burned by that glory or they are not, I don't think you can have it both ways.

So, with that, I don't think the glow of Moses in that example is a transfigured state. I think it is the Lord responding to Moses' request earlier in that chapter to "walk amongst the people" as they were so wicked and worshiping idols. The Lord, of course, couldn't do that, like you say, they wouldn't stand a revelation of that glory, they would burn so instead the Lord gave them a sign that the commandments came from a divine source by making Moses' skin shine. His hands didn't shine, his countenance didn't shine, just the skin on his face according to the scripture. This was just for the benefit of the covenant people to help them take to heart the commandments given at that time. You interpreting more into that event, I don't think was the intention of that sign. It certainly wasn't the Light of God because that would have burned all the eyes of all that saw Moses through physical eyes.