Transgender Question

[Korrotassa]

I'd like anyone with a position in the Church to answer this one.

Okay... I shall start... hear me out.

The Church doesn't look too kindly on Transgenders... why?

I hate being male. Not in the fact that I'm male, I just hate my male body. I admire the female form, Not as something lustful, But that it seems more whole. Like a Finished project in a way.

I am considering the operation. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. But before I continue thinking this way I need to know everything.

Why can't a male who now looks female hold priesthood? I know a guy, perfectly male. But he looks like a chick (if quite flat) only way to tell otherwise would be to de-pants him (wasn't a pleasant sight (totally accidental) ) The way I see it, He's much the same. difference being balls.

So a Trans couldn't have babies, Neither could a sterile person either.

Their Spirit is the same, is it not? The spiritual energies or what ever that form ones spirit are the same. a Male Spirit.

How does changing appearance effect capabilities of holding the priesthood?

If I were to get the operation, the only difference in myself would be appearance, and the fact that I would be considerably happier and open to social activities (now that I'd be more confident).

I'd still have the same tastes, the same goals.

I've considered it, stewed over it. And If I were to be with a woman who became trans, Then no matter how you look at it, the relationship is straight.

Is the issue here not Spiritual? But Physical ?

In which case the problem is in the way it makes others think about the Church? "I thought chicks couldn't hold the priesthood" "Lol, their such liars. lets stick to being atheists because we are right about everything. lol"

I don't want get the operation to escape god-given "Roles", I don't want to get it because I'm secretly gay (I'm not).

I simply want a form that I'm more comfortable with. One that doesn't disgust me, Or send me into slight depression.

I can't have children? So what, what about the poor abandoned children out there? I will find my joy as a parent through Adoption (which I will do anyway)

I really, Really wish I was a True Female (Now, this hurts my pride to say, But it was to the point where I actually cried at the fact that no matter what, I will never be able to experience that life), But That is something that cannot be, I'm not one to abandon roles either. So looking like one, in the form I view as complete, Is good enough for me.

But through all this, I still desire the Celestial Kingdom more. If the operation would damn myself from ever reaching it throughout eternity (Which I view as bogus, Eternity is.. well.. Eternity, There has to be a way to reach the top. never in all existence being able to go somewhere because of that one little minuscule frame of time where you were imperfect.).

Then I would just continue my dreary life in this flawed form...

I'm not one to believe in Damnation, But My belief doesn't make it not true So I'd rather not test it.

[MarginOfError]

Let me first express my sympathies for the struggles your body causes you. I'm not sure how to phrase it in a way that isn't dismissive or condescending, so I hope my intent comes across.

It is my own personal belief that transgender happens congentially. But it's nearly impossible to tell if the cause for a specific individual is psychological, physical, or a combination (and it will vary from individual to individual).

It is the policy of the Church that priesthood eligibility is, among other things, determined by biological gender at birth. Exceptions are made when anatomically, a person's gender is ambiguous. But we don't make exceptions for any other reason because we have no objective way to measure or confirm if any specific individual "should have been a man" or "should have been a woman."

The only thing I can say--and it is admittedly of small comfort--is that you will have and be content with your correct gender in the eternities because it is an eternal characteristic.

That's the best answer I've got. I'm aware that it's unsatisfying. I wish I could offer you more.

[Korrotassa]

my Being Male is fine I just hate the body that comes with it. If this makes any sense.

I liken it to changing clothing. Its just an appearance. But I can change a belt if its uncomfortable.

Would changing ones Apparent Gender really effect anything if the subject chooses not to?

You become Trans, It doesn't make you gay, unless you were already gay, or Let yourself become gay.

I really can't wrap my head around why the Church would show so much dislike to Transgenders.

"omg, You don't look like a d00d anymore! Bad, Bad person!" So they throw them in the same group as Murderers and people who truly are horrible (at the time. Even a Murderer can change)

But Why. I cannot understand.

As I said, the Spirit would remain the same. Its appearance might change to match its body, But its still the same. Just without organs sticking out of their body.

The only difference I can come up with is Reproduction.

[MarginOfError]

my Being Male is fine I just hate the body that comes with it. If this makes any sense.

Honestly, I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around that. But I have no doubt that you feel that way. I just can't quite relate to feeling that way.

I liken it to changing clothing. Its just an appearance. But I can change a belt if its uncomfortable.

Would changing ones Apparent Gender really effect anything if the subject chooses not to?

I see your point. Again, I don't have a good response. I'm not even going to say that it's right or wrong. The best I can do is say that, from a policy perspective, we don't understand how priesthood fits an apparently biological female. It's a problem that has been faced so rarely that it's hard to know what to do in these circumstances, and it's never really been addressed any further than to say, "if we don't know, we're not going to do it."

You become Trans, It doesn't make you gay, unless you were already gay, or Let yourself become gay.

I really can't wrap my head around why the Church would show so much dislike to Transgenders.

"omg, You don't look like a d00d anymore! Bad, Bad person!" So they throw them in the same group as Murderers and people who truly are horrible (at the time. Even a Murderer can change)

Anyone who is perpetuating such a belief is a fool and really needs to study the gospel. Being transgender doesn't make you bad--it makes you transgender.

Changing your appearance doesn't make you bad--it makes you look different than you did before. Any other assignments of value are fraudulent.

But Why. I cannot understand.

As I said, the Spirit would remain the same. Its appearance might change to match its body, But its still the same. Just without organs sticking out of their body.

The only difference I can come up with is Reproduction.

This I don't know that I can agree with. Why would the appearance of spirit be altered by the severing of anatomy? Are you saying that if you sever a part of your body, you sever that part of your spirit as well?

[Korrotassa]

This I don't know that I can agree with. Why would the appearance of spirit be altered by the severing of anatomy? Are you saying that if you sever a part of your body, you sever that part of your spirit as well?

It Might change.

I have no strong feelings on this matter. I just leave room for error.

Change in the Spirit is something many people hope for. My Mother hopes desperately to look 20 again, because Pregnancy changed her irrevocably. (She gained... a few pounds that didn't go away)

I think it similar as to being dressed as a spirit. We always depict spirits to be clothed. And we even dress the dead in their best. I assume our appearance at Death will be that of our Spirit. And this time on Earth could just as much be a time to craft your body.

Notice I keep saying Could. Again, I don't have much view on this.

This is why If I get the operation, My only romance will be that of a Woman who took the operation as well. so either way, its straight.

[richard_the_lion_hearted]

The only thing I can say my dear brother is that we don't always understand why but if you truly believe in Christ and His ways being the ONLY way and that the adversary can fool even the very most elect of God among us, then sometimes no matter how confusing, how depressing, how heart-breaking a situation may be, you have to rely on Christ (exercise your faith) to reveal to you the greater truth or understanding as it is. The 'niche' is that you must obey with full purpose of heart to receive the answer you seek or acknowledge your nothingness before Him, that you don't have the answers (you do not truly know), that you truly trust Him to show you. Exercise great patience that all things are done in His time.

We were created as we are, this is a gift, it's the difference between being and not being. Jesus Christ made you who you are through Heavenly Father's direction, that is the ultimate first truth you need to recognize, then you must ask yourself if you have sufficiently humbled yourself before Him by obedience to the gospel, you can ONLY receive an understanding this personal from Him by these means. Do you really say in your heart that God made a mistake with you? God is perfect in all things, you have to trust Him where a lack of understanding is present no matter how confusing your situation is, if you don't believe that Christ is perfect as is Heavenly Father in ALL THINGS (concerning your special creation as one of His children, one whom He knows personally.) then your search will ultimately fail, does this make sense to you?

Edited January 26, 2011 by richard_the_lion_hearted
omission

[Backroads]

I do not think altering the body anyway transforms the spirit. You are either male or female. C. S. Lewis put forth the concept that things are either feminine or masculine, and those qualities go beyond anything physical.

I am a little confused. You say you are fine with being male, just not with having the body. You also say you wish to be full female. I guess I want to know which is it? Do you feel male or female?

[Korrotassa]

I am a little confused. You say you are fine with being male, just not with having the body. You also say you wish to be full female. I guess I want to know which is it? Do you feel male or female?

I wish I as truly female. But as male, I feel great impossibility that I could ever switch. Eternity is a long time. And I doubt we'll be sitting on little clouds playing harps the whole time. at least if we get Celestial. But even so, and many probably agree (heck, I don't want to agree) But switching gender doesn't seem possible. Especially with the whole gender roles (which I dislike, if they wish to fit that role thats fine. But I'd just as gladly have my future partner be some outgoing gal who is into business or something).

So, All I wish is to look the part. Look like it. I don't personally don't see any problem with changing apparent gender. And if we don't look the same after we die? More reason why it shouldn't be a problem.

They are still the same as before. (However, Personality may change. I know I would be more outgoing and actually go to school public school again.)

You'd just be just like that sterile guy down the street, and one of the billions of individual humans all with their own appearance. Yours just being one you can finally be happier with.

I'd be fine if the Church wouldn't want to give them priesthood, But Barring the doors to the temple? Thats like saying your doomed to never reach the Celestial Kingdom.

Which I guess is what I'm asking so a simple version:

Willingly getting a Transgender operation, Would it prevent you from getting to the Celestial Kingdom?

The normal problems would be finding a partner, But as long as you don't cross "gay" boundaries.... ? (Such as finding a partner who was female, wanted to look male, so either way, your straight.)

Edited January 26, 2011 by Korrotassa

[Backroads]

Technically not much on this earth life will bar you from the Celestial Kingdom warrenting you are faithful and do the best you can on here--even not going to the temple.

I can't recall if anyone has posted the official church policy here. But my personal feeling is that you are either male or female in spirit and changing to correct that can very well be what it takes. Come resurrection, every body will be perfect, as it should be.

My question is if this comes up on temple interviews... and I can't think of why it would. If no one knew a transgender was a transgender, how would they go about asking about it?

[Korrotassa]

They would probably rely on them telling them.

"Oh and by the way, I'm transgender" or already knowing previously.

[NeuroTypical]

I really can't wrap my head around why the Church would show so much dislike to Transgenders.

"omg, You don't look like a d00d anymore! Bad, Bad person!" So they throw them in the same group as Murderers and people who truly are horrible (at the time. Even a Murderer can change)

Wait - which church are you talking about? The church I've been going to for 40 years doesn't do any of that stuff. I've been to over a dozen wards and thousands of meetings. None of them have ever taught 'dislike to transgenders'. Nor have I ever been taught to lump a T person into the same group of murderers. Nor have I ever heard an active LDS call a transgender a 'truly horrible' person (unless they were truly horrible in other areas like being a child molester or something.)

You do know this forum is for members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, right?

From what I understand about transgender operations, the process to get one involves meeting with counselors and waiting periods and whatnot. I guess because a lot of folks seek out such operations as a way to fix an unrelated problem, which turns out is a horrible reason to have gender reassignment surgery. High suicide rates, high rate of changing your mind before and after, high rates of emotional and mental problems before and worse after.

I learned all that from a representative from the GLBT community who came to my work and talked about the struggles such folk have.

Hope you can find some peace over the things that are troubling you, Korotassa.

LM

[Korrotassa]

It was exaggerated.

From all my digging, It seems Transgenders are excommunicated and can not get temple recommends if they rejoin.

[selek]

The Church doesn't look too kindly on Transgenders... why?

I'd like to see some references- some kind of authoritative statement- demonstrating this allegation to be true.

The Church looks unkindly upon sinful behavior.

Your statement implies that it looks unkindly upon people.

Please provide evidence backing up your assertion.

[Korrotassa]

You sound offensive. It annoys me, And I'm pretty sure the post above yours answered why I said that.

Doesn't matter. Few seem to have tried to answer this. One person gave something helpful in the least. the rest are questioning other things. I made an account here for this question. I'll have to move on to somewhere else for an answer.

[selek]

You sound offensive. It annoys me, And I'm pretty sure the post above yours answered why I said that.

What is offensive or annoying about asking you to back up your allegations with fact?

Doesn't matter. Few seem to have tried to answer this. One person gave something helpful in the least. the rest are questioning other things. I made an account here for this question. I'll have to move on to somewhere else for an answer.

You asked us to justify the Church's treatment of "transgenders", but have yet to demonstrate that the alleged behavior actually exists.

How can we provide a "satisfactory" answer to something we haven't demonstrated is actually taking place?

As far as "gender" issues go, let me point you towards the following:

Gender Is an Essential Characteristic of Eternal Identity and Purpose - Ensign Oct. 2008

“All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose” (“The Family: A Proclamation to the World,” Liahona, Oct. 2004, 49; Ensign, Nov. 1995, 102).

Contrary to the way it's presented in the popular media, "sex-change" operations are nothing of the kind.

With the exception of certain rare medical conditions, such operations are little more than surgical self-mutilation- and are an attempt at self-deception.

If you are born male, the surgery won't change that fact or nature. A genetic test on a "former male" will show a male. A test on a "former female" will show a female.

Your physical body may have been structurally altered- but your underlying nature remains- and your body will do its best to continue that nature.

Also- such surgery (especially when elective) is not a "one-time" thing, but an on-going process. A body born "male" will continue to try and be "male" and must be chemically bludgeoned into submission- meaning hormone treatments and other medications for the remainder of the patient's life.

Do you remember the big scandal about supplemental estrogen treatments from a few years back?

Post menopausal women were advised to take estrogen supplements to deal with their symptoms- right up until those treatments were linked to increased cervical, ovarian, and breast cancers.

The same is undoubtedly true for those who've had gender reassignments as they attempt to drug their bodies into being something they are not.

Optional (meaning medically unnecessary) "gender reassignment" surgery is an attempt to be something that you are not- it is willful denial of your God-given physical (and eternal) nature.

By engaging in such self-deception and such willful denial, you are essentially telling God he was wrong, and thumbing your nose at him.

Yes- "gender reassignment" is sometimes necessary to correct medical problems.

But to do so simply "because I feel like it" is to mock God.

Unless such surgery is correcting a medical condition (such as that described in the article Anatess links to) such surgery is little more than the elective (and optional) mutilation- the deliberate desecration of- the Temple that God gave you (your body).

By deliberately desecrating that which God gave you- and the role he assigned you- you are deliberately thumbing your nose at Heavenly Father and mocking him.

How can God look upon such actions with favor?

Also contrary to popular belief, holding the Priesthood is a privilege- not a right.

The Priesthood is reserved for those who are actively seeking to serve their fellow man and to glorify God.

Why would/should that privilege be extended to those who deliberately thumb their noses at God?

Finally- those who are serving God sincerely and with all their hearts are under no condemnation.

God does not- and will not- condemn us for honest mistakes.

Only for prideful sin and deliberate disobedience.

Edited January 26, 2011 by selek
Clarity

[Guest]

You sound offensive. It annoys me, And I'm pretty sure the post above yours answered why I said that.

Doesn't matter. Few seem to have tried to answer this. One person gave something helpful in the least. the rest are questioning other things. I made an account here for this question. I'll have to move on to somewhere else for an answer.

Korrotassa, it is not really meant to be offensive. They are just trying to find out why you think that transgenders are excommunicated from the Church without any reason beyond the surgery.

This is not a true LDS policy. So, we are trying to understand where you got that impression so we may correct it.

If you read this article:

Mormanity - A Mormon Blog (But Not Just for Mormons): Still Pondering the Complexity of Transgender Issues

You will find an example of a transgender who is still an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

[Backroads]

They would probably rely on them telling them.

"Oh and by the way, I'm transgender" or already knowing previously.

So in this case, I don't see how it would really prevent you from entering the temple.

[Korrotassa]

Korrotassa, it is not really meant to be offensive. They are just trying to find out why you think that transgenders are excommunicated from the Church without any reason beyond the surgery.

This is not a true LDS policy. So, we are trying to understand where you got that impression so we may correct it.

If you read this article:

Mormanity - A Mormon Blog (But Not Just for Mormons): Still Pondering the Complexity of Transgender Issues

You will find an example of a transgender who is still an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

That was Almost helpful...

But that Transgender was apparently mutated at birth. and the "trans" operation was just to correct a valid condition.

In which case it was fine.

But I am physically a fit male. and have no need other then mental outlook.

What I'm asking is Not WHY, But Do they.

If I, a healthy male, was to get the operation, Would I still be able to partake of the Sacrament, Get a Temple Recommend, Marry in the temple (Naturally, I think it would still be gay to marry a man, and would look gay to marry a woman. But I'd find a woman who did the same as I.)

What Selek said was really my point, All it is would be a Structure change. a New look.

I read articles and comments everywhere before I joined here, and realized That none of them were actually LDS. so I came here.

[selek]

That was Almost helpful...

And that crack was almost civil. If you want us to extend a modicum of respect to your position, you might consider extending the same courtesy to us.

If I, a healthy male, was to get the operation, Would I still be able to partake of the Sacrament, Get a Temple Recommend, Marry in the temple (Naturally, I think it would still be gay to marry a man, and would look gay to marry a woman. But I'd find a woman who did the same as I.)

Would I still be able to partake of the Sacrament, Get a Temple Recommend, Marry in the temple (Naturally, I think it would still be gay to marry a man, and would look gay to marry a woman. But I'd find a woman who did the same as I.)

Ultimately, it would be up to the Bishop and General Authorities with stewardship over you, but because such "modification" is medically unnecessary (and as a general rule):

• partake of the Sacrament- Eventually, and subject to genuine and sincere repentance
• hold and exercise the Priesthood- No.
• Get a Temple Recommend- No.
• Marry in the temple- No.

Edited January 27, 2011 by selek
Clarity

[Soulsearcher]

And that crack was almost civil. If you want us to extend a modicum of respect to your position, you might consider extending the same courtesy to us.

I'm not sure it was meant as a crack. I read it as the article covered some helpful points, but being the situation was a lil different it wasn't exactly helpful in the manner the poster was seeking.

[selek]

I'm not sure it was meant as a crack. I read it as the article covered some helpful points, but being the situation was a lil different it wasn't exactly helpful in the manner the poster was seeking.

I yield to your wisdom- though my interpretation was obviously different from your own.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

It's hard to know how to address this question because so much offense is tied to it. First there is the offense that gender mutilation renders to the Creator who made us male and female, and then those who undergo the operation bandy it about like a chip on their shoulder so quick to be offended by anyone who doesn't accept their new "gender".

If you underwent the operation I could not refer to you as a woman, nor could I use female pronouns when talking about you. My religious belief precludes this possibility and speaking of rights mine to practice my beliefs is spelled out in the constitution, yours to not be offended is not. I would not be mean about it, and far from goading you, I would seek every opportunity to avoid you and the minefield you would have laid out for me. Many would also feel as I do. Is this what you want?

The operation would not make you a woman, it would only mutilate you. Our gender is imprinted in us down to the very cellular level. Our chromozones are distinct and are never a mistake. Spiritually we are also made male and female and our physical complimentarity to the female is matched by our spiritual. The man and the woman complete each other in every way. It's not an oversight or mistake that you were made a man, it was God's design. The Mormons believe that your spirit existed long before it was issued from heaven so you could be born. What this means to you if you are Mormon is that God's plan and design for you, including your gender, has vastly predated your few years on this earth.

I think the feelings of wanting to be a woman are a mental disorder and can be corrected. I rejoice in having been born a boy and I enjoy my masculinity. Women are indeed beautiful and have many traits to be admired, but the same goes for us men. The ultimate endeavor of humanity is to see the beautiful in both genders, as Michelangelo the artist did. It can be learned. You can come to love your masculinity and many men like you have experienced freedom in Christ; freedom to be the men and women God has meant us to be.

I post this not to offend you, but I also cannot pull punches in fear of offending you. I need to shoot straight with you, man to man. This isn't the right path and will not bring you happiness. If you cannot find happiness with what God has given you already, then no operation will change that. I hope and pray that you consider other options.

In the Sacred Heart of Christ.

[Soulsearcher]

I think the feelings of wanting to be a woman are a mental disorder and can be corrected.

You can think it, however that doesn't make it a sure fact. There are studies to show that there can be biological factors at play with Transgendered people. While they may not fit exactly into what you believe, it doesn't remove the fact it's at least possible and needs to be considered before rendering a diagnosis of " it's a mental disorder"

[selek]

I think the feelings of wanting to be a woman are a mental disorder and can be corrected.

You can think it, however that doesn't make it a sure fact. There are studies to show that there can be biological factors at play with Transgendered people. While they may not fit exactly into what you believe, it doesn't remove the fact it's at least possible and needs to be considered before rendering a diagnosis of " it's a mental disorder"

I agree.

My mother- for example- was perfectly healthy in her desire to be a woman.

That having been said- whether the desire to switch genders is more nature than nurture or vice-versa, it is fundamentally dysfunctional, and the act of self-mutilation to achieve that end- without genuine medical need- is equally dysfunctional and inescapably sinful.

Note, of course, that it is the behavior, not the desire, which is sinful.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

You can think it, however that doesn't make it a sure fact. There are studies to show that there can be biological factors at play with Transgendered people. While they may not fit exactly into what you believe, it doesn't remove the fact it's at least possible and needs to be considered before rendering a diagnosis of " it's a mental disorder"

Of everything I said, that's the only thing you seized upon. My beginning paragraph describes you succinctly.