Was Job free of sin?

[volgadon]

I deal with Christians and their Scriptures all the time...and their biblical translations from so called Scholars are horrendous.

And the book of Bert says: And this is from a country where yesterday snowstorm as affected on 1 on 3 citizens.

The Lord's warning for repentance are increasing in the USA and why is that? Does it have to get as bad as Australia?

bert10

Irony, that must be like goldy and bronzy.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Fear paralyzes and faith is power to move. How many times does God warn men to not fear?

Is it not written that without faith that it is impossible to please GOD?

Have you read the scriptures that fear cannot exist with Love and has torments attached to them?

That without Love one cannot be made perfect and we cannot have boldness in the day of Judgment.

1 John 4:17 - Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

1 John 4:18 - There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Perfect love casteth out fear...and if we have fears it is impossible we have perfect love. And fear hath torment.

And where does one find torment?

To have torments: is to be in hell. One does not have to die to be in hell. We make our own hell or heaven by our choices.

Matthew 8:29 - And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Jesus lived a life of perfection as an example to them that loved Him. To them Jesus said in Matthew 5:48 - Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

<> He wasn't kidding when he gave that commandment and He also gave men the faith and hope that they can fulfill it. The blind and the wicked teach that we cannot fulfill this commandment.

<> "Entering into the Rest of the Lord" I believe this was the "Promise Hitherto Unknown" that President Benson in the eighties tried to teach the LDS. In his last year he did not teach on this anymore. For the Lord had commanded him to cease. The LDS were not listening.

Entering into the Lord's rest is given here in Hebrew. : one has to hear the voice of GOD in our hearts.

Hebrews 3:7 -Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

Hebrews 3:8 - Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

Hebrews 3:9 - When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

Hebrews 3:10 - Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known

my ways.

Hebrews 3:11 - So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

How fear kept Isreal from becoming the Light of the World.

When the Lord brought Israel to Mount Sinai...He ordered the people to cleanse themselves for three days in preparation to meet their GOD.

GOD was already in the top of the mountain. There was a ring of fire and it rumble and there was the sound of the trumps. As they got nearer to the mountain... their fears and lack of trust in GOD just kept growing. As they got nearer...the rumblings and shakings of the mountain with the fire got more ominous. And they could not get anymore near it...their fears got the better of them...and they all ran away from their GOD.

You see all the miracles that were performed for them were acts of nature and did not give them the faith necessary to endure and trust that God would save them. They murmured after each miracle and threatened to take the life of Moses.

Then they said to Moses to go and get the words of GOD and the promised to obey them. Of course they could not obey the laws perfectly no one can. They would not learn that there is no substitution than hearing GOD in ones heart. That it is always better to walk by counsels then by commandments. Because if we fail a counsel the penalty is not as great as actually breaking a commandment.

And the commandments came written on a Stone Tablet which made the commandments as hard, and rigid and unyielding as a stone. And in the following months ISrael received about 600 commandments, statutes etc.

As you can see how fear can stop spiritual growth even of a whole nation...it is a sin For GOD said fear not many times.

As for you lion example...by faith Daniel walked amongst them unharmed even when they were starving.

bert10

So, I take it then, when you cross the street, you don't look both ways because you have no fear?

You leave your door unlocked at night, because you have no fear?

You leave your car door unlocked in a parking lot because you have no fear?

You keep your money under your mattress instead of a bank because you have no fear, no reason to keep it protected (as there is no reason to collect interest on money in a bank anymore, haha)?

You let your children talk to strangers because you have no fear?

You let your children walk down the street by themselves because we are not supposed to have any fear?

When you see a homeless person you let him into your house to do chores, help them out and give them a little cash, like Ed Smart did, because you have no fear that he might come back and kidnap your daughter?

When you are sick you don't take antibiotics unless you know for sure it is a bacterial infection as antibiotics don't treat viral infections and of course, would have no fear that the infection could get worse?

When you have a fever of 104 and can barely breath you don't go to the ER because you have no fear?

You are in Australia and are told you should probably get out of town because there is a big cyclone coming through bringing 186 mph winds, but you have no fear so you stay?

You happen to be in Cairo right now and you proudly wave the American flag down the streets because you have no fear?

You are held up at gun point and because you have no fear you tell the robber that he shouldn't steal and turn your back and walk away?

You black out and cover up all the punishments in the scriptures associated with commandments, such as burning if we don't pay tithing, because you don't want to have any motive associated with fear when you obey the commandments? (... but at the same time wonder why there are punishments associated with commandments then if we are not supposed to fear)

sure...

Yes, that is good advice.?

[rameumptom]

One thing Paul does not discuss is: who has perfect love?

Are we, as mortals, capable of perfect love? If not, then we all have fear to some extent or another. And if we have fear, we are not perfect.

Bert, a concern I have is you try to pass yourself off as a Bible scholar! You share your interpretations of scripture as if they are the correct interpretations. Guess what? That is a definition of someone attempting to be a scholar or expert in that arena.

Since none of us are perfect, even Bible scholars are not perfect, either. We must all look at life "through a glass darkly." That doesn't mean we cannot approximate the truths written in the Bible or any other book, for that matter.

Are you so certain that the disasters that are ongoing are all caused by God's wrath? I'm not saying whether they are or are not, as God can do anything He wishes to do. However, can you specifically show in the scriptures or statements of modern prophets where Australia's weather has something to do with God's wrath?

[Blackmarch]

When we think of someone being free of sin obviously we think of Jesus Christ. However, I thought of this yesterday. All of Job's life he was protected from Satan by God. Even when God allowed Satan to try to tempt Job, Job still didn't give in. Since Job was always protected by God from Satan does that mean Job was also free of sin?

not his whole life, but the potential for someone to reach that point is there. I suppose if someone were able they could reach it before passing on, but that would be pretty herculean.

[prisonchaplain]

I deal with Christians and their Scriptures all the time...and their biblical translations from so called Scholars are horrendous.

bert10

I'm not even sure what this is. Anti-intellectualism? Smarting from criticisms some Christians scholars may direct towards LDS teachings? Or...are you actually versed in Koine Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, such that you are qualified to condemn as horrendous most Bible translations?

[bert10]

The best translation is hearing it first hand by the Holy Ghost. We are in the days...when those prophecies concerning for men to be taught of GOD instead of men be amongst us.

We are now in the days where it is not necessary for some...to be told know the Lord .....and the day will soon be here...when no man shall say to his brother and neighbor know the Lord for they shall all know Him from the least to the greatest.

Moses once said...Would GOD that all the people were prophets that GOD would put His Spirit on all the people.

bert10

There are some bad scholars, I'd agree, but there are plenty of great Biblical scholars.

[prisonchaplain]

All "Spirit" and no Word can lead to tremendous heresy.

All "Word" and no Spirit will lead to legalism and "a form of godliness that denies the power thereof."

The best balance is a thirst for both knowledge and the Holy Spirit to discern it. That said, who is to say that the Holy Spirit did not anoint and direct the translators of our Scriptures?

[Phang]

at some point is is inevitable that Job would have fallen short, for all have. I would like to consider the idea that it would have been a sin of omission rather than commission and one that would be brought about more by the failings of the flesh then the failing of the spirit (Some days you just can't get everything done or ever get to church on time). That being said however, his perfection ws not in avoiding sin but rather in his keeping the law of Moses with regards to sacrifice and repentance that were available. His perfection comes form the observance of the Law not so much in his ability to lie up to the law.

[rameumptom]

Bert,

This is where your logic fails. Nephi had the Spirit, but was commanded to slay Laban, simply because it was necessary for his people to have the Brass Plates. Without the scriptures, they would have fallen into ignorance and disbelief, even with the Holy Ghost!

Remember, the Holy Ghost gives to us the things we are ready and able to understand (Alma 29:8). What you may believe to be the pinnacle of truth via the Holy Ghost, may just be a ledge near the bottom of the mountain of truth the HG is awaiting to give to all of us.

[bert10]

With the brass plates...The Nephites still fell into ignorance and disbelief. Only it took a little longer.

What do you think will be different in the Millennium?

The new and everlasting covenant is hearing GOD in ones heart. The people will begin to understand the difference between eating from the Tree of knowledge of good and evil and will cease to do it and learn to eat from the tree of life.

I ask, seek a knock a lot. I have learned much, and I need to learn more. However, the only difference between Nephites of the past the Newness of the people of GOD is that...they will have learn to leave judging others to GOD and to walk by the Spirit.

John 6:45 - It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

1 Thessalonians 4:9 - But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one

another.

The scriptures cannot advise us moment by moment in our decision making because it is impossible for it to cover all possibilities.

bert10

Bert,

This is where your logic fails. Nephi had the Spirit, but was commanded to slay Laban, simply because it was necessary for his people to have the Brass Plates. Without the scriptures, they would have fallen into ignorance and disbelief, even with the Holy Ghost!

Remember, the Holy Ghost gives to us the things we are ready and able to understand (Alma 29:8). What you may believe to be the pinnacle of truth via the Holy Ghost, may just be a ledge near the bottom of the mountain of truth the HG is awaiting to give to all of us.

[rameumptom]

Wrong, the Nephites did NOT fall into ignorance and disbelief. They rebelled against the knowledge and witness given in the scriptures they had. Major difference.

We see with the Mulekites that they lost knowledge of God, lost their religion, and even their language over just a few hundred years, all because they did not have scriptures with them. The Nephites had to reteach everything to them, upon discovering Zarahemla. They had dwindled in in unbelief.

So I stand by what I stated before.

The scriptures give us a foundation, upon which the Holy Spirit can bring us to a higher level of inspiration. Ritual and faith is solidly based upon scriptural foundations. If not, we would have no reason for the Book of Mormon or modern scripture. We could all be just like many Christians today who rarely use the scriptures, and claim to follow the Spirit.

Joseph Smith taught that the Book of Mormon is the most correct (principally) book on earth and we can get closer to God by abiding its precepts than any other book. Guess what? That tells us that scripture is necessary. Pres Kimball noted that whenever he felt far from the Lord, he would read the scriptures and the Spirit would return to him. To ignore the constant teachings of all the Prophets of our dispensation regarding the importance of scripture to our salvation, is to risk dwindling in unbelief.

Given we are looking forward to the sealed portions of the gold plates, the writings of the lost tribes, and future revelation, I'd definitely state that scripture is necessary for us to have the Holy Spirit continually with us.

Edited February 5, 2011 by rameumptom

[bert10]

Rebellion is asserting one's will over GOD. How much more in error can one be to think that the way of righteousness is one's will?

Lost of knowledge of GOD is Ignorance. But before this can happen one has to separate himself from GOD then go into Sin.

Isaiah has revealed by iniquities we separate ourselves from GOD and when we sin GOD turns his face so that He does not hear us. This is always the pattern before men go into full rebellion from GOD.

The Scriptures are for the blind and deaf. And they only point to the way. The Nephites needed the scriptures because they had the same rebellious Spirit that their forefathers had. They needed to law of Moses...and the purpose of the law of Moses was to condemn them if they did not go into the gospel of perfection.... Lehi did finally enter into the rest of the Lord... which was after his son had done so.

WE can speak of it if you wish, and it can be shown both in the bible and in the book of Mormon what was the purpose of the Law of Moses and the Spiritual law.

As Paul said...to them who were mature...you need not more scriptures but you yourself are taught of GOD.

And it is prophesied that the day will come when no man shall say to His brother and neighbor know the Lord for they shall all know him from the least to the greatest.

Scriptures is necessary for them who cannot bear meat. The Scriptures and the law are a schoolmaster unto Christ. We cannot follow both the Scriptures and The voice of GOD in our heart at the same time. Because the voice of GOD trumps everything that is written from the past.

bert10

Wrong, the Nephites did NOT fall into ignorance and disbelief. They rebelled against the knowledge and witness given in the scriptures they had. Major difference.

We see with the Mulekites that they lost knowledge of God, lost their religion, and even their language over just a few hundred years, all because they did not have scriptures with them. The Nephites had to reteach everything to them, upon discovering Zarahemla. They had dwindled in in unbelief.

So I stand by what I stated before.

The scriptures give us a foundation, upon which the Holy Spirit can bring us to a higher level of inspiration. Ritual and faith is solidly based upon scriptural foundations. If not, we would have no reason for the Book of Mormon or modern scripture. We could all be just like many Christians today who rarely use the scriptures, and claim to follow the Spirit.

Joseph Smith taught that the Book of Mormon is the most correct (principally) book on earth and we can get closer to God by abiding its precepts than any other book. Guess what? That tells us that scripture is necessary. Pres Kimball noted that whenever he felt far from the Lord, he would read the scriptures and the Spirit would return to him. To ignore the constant teachings of all the Prophets of our dispensation regarding the importance of scripture to our salvation, is to risk dwindling in unbelief.

Given we are looking forward to the sealed portions of the gold plates, the writings of the lost tribes, and future revelation, I'd definitely state that scripture is necessary for us to have the Holy Spirit continually with us.

Edited February 5, 2011 by bert10