Of Harps And Heresy

[Ray]

As man is, G-d (Jesus) once was. As G-d (Jesus) is, man can become. I do not understand why all other Christians have such a problem with this?

Because even some of us who are so-called "Christians" have been deceived by Satan.

Now come on. Admit it. You already knew that, didn't you? :)

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We cannot become Gods.

Yes, we can. And I'm on my way to becoming knowing that God is there to help me. :)

And btw, if you want to respond by saying "We can't" and keep repeating that thought for infinity, I'll go ahead and say "We can" and apply that thought for infinity... forever... because I know it's true... because our Father has told me it's true... regardless of what you say.

How has this "father" told you that it is true?

I just want to know because if it is this "warm feeling in the bosem" thing again I think I'll go mad!

I get warm feelings in my bosem when I listen to Beethoven, when I read good literature, when I am very pleased.

So how do you feel when God speaks to you, or assures you of the truth?

[Christos]

Back to the human embryo. With all the arguing there was no proof that an embryo is a human. Likewise there is no proof that a human is a g-d. This however, is not the point. The point is that even though a human embryo exhibits nothing that can legally be used to identify it as human – Not one single thing (Otherwise there would be no legal abortion); so a human exhibits nothing that can be argued to identify it as a g-d. But such arguments miss what is being presented. It is not that man, as we understand him, is some kind of a g-d – it is that G-d just as G-d can make a human from an embryo, G-d can make a g-d from man. Christos says NO!! but has yet to say or admit that it is because G-d can’t (lacks the power or knowledge or ability or something) or won’t (because he is selfish and wants g-dness all to himself or really does not love us that much or he cannot stand anybody or anything like him or something else).

Yes I do say no!

God is not our Heavenly Father in the same sense that our Earthly Father is.

I personally believe that the termonology of the trinity is too vague...but that is off topic.

Where in the Bible does it make reference to man becomming God?

Please don't quote from 1 Corinthians 15 (one of my favourite chapters)...because it isn't talking about an abstract view of "kingdoms of Heaven", of which the word "tellestial" is never mentioned in the bible, but of our resurrected bodies and our Earthly bodies.

Here is a bit of latin for beginners. Celestial is a latin word meaning "Heavenly" and Terrestial comes from the Latin word meaning Earth. "Terra" is the latin for Earth.

Incidentally there is a verse in this very chapter (just one verse away) which backs up my previous statements about how Man is not the same as God.

1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

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As man is, G-d (Jesus) once was. As G-d (Jesus) is, man can become. I do not understand why all other Christians have such a problem with this?

Because even some of us who are so-called "Christians" have been deceived by Satan.

Now come on. Admit it. You already knew that, didn't you? :)

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We cannot become Gods.

Yes, we can. And I'm on my way to becoming knowing that God is there to help me. :)

And btw, if you want to respond by saying "We can't" and keep repeating that thought for infinity, I'll go ahead and say "We can" and apply that thought for infinity... forever... because I know it's true... because our Father has told me it's true... regardless of what you say.

How has this "father" told you that it is true?

I just want to know because if it is this "warm feeling in the bosem" thing again I think I'll go mad!

I get warm feelings in my bosem when I listen to Beethoven, when I read good literature, when I am very pleased.

So how do you feel when God speaks to you, or assures you of the truth?

How do I feel?

Humbled, in awe, reverence, humility, and above all, Fear.

God is so great that we are not capable of comprehending a slightest bit of God.

I am still looking for a passage in Exodus that talks about God warning Moses that if any an should look upon his face he should surely die....the reason being, that God is too holy for man.

B.T.W.! You should have answered the question before asking for my view on it.

[Ray]

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We cannot become Gods.

Yes, we can. And I'm on my way to becoming knowing that God is there to help me. :)

And btw, if you want to respond by saying "We can't" and keep repeating that thought for infinity, I'll go ahead and say "We can" and apply that thought for infinity... forever... because I know it's true... because our Father has told me it's true... regardless of what you say.

How has this "father" told you that it is true?

I just want to know because if it is this "warm feeling in the bosem" thing again I think I'll go mad!

I get warm feelings in my bosem when I listen to Beethoven, when I read good literature, when I am very pleased.

So how do you feel when God speaks to you, or assures you of the truth?

How do I feel?

Humbled, in awe, reverence, humility, and above all, Fear.

But how does that "feel"? Try to describe the feelings... without putting a label on them.

And try to explain how you know that's from God, and not the influence of Satan.

B.T.W.! You should have answered the question before asking for my view on it.

Why? Is that some sort of unspoken rule that I'm expected to follow?

I'm waiting to see how you'll describe those feelings before I try to do that for you... and you haven't done that yet.

[Traveler]

Back to the human embryo. With all the arguing there was no proof that an embryo is a human. Likewise there is no proof that a human is a g-d. This however, is not the point. The point is that even though a human embryo exhibits nothing that can legally be used to identify it as human – Not one single thing (Otherwise there would be no legal abortion); so a human exhibits nothing that can be argued to identify it as a g-d. But such arguments miss what is being presented. It is not that man, as we understand him, is some kind of a g-d – it is that G-d just as G-d can make a human from an embryo, G-d can make a g-d from man. Christos says NO!! but has yet to say or admit that it is because G-d can’t (lacks the power or knowledge or ability or something) or won’t (because he is selfish and wants g-dness all to himself or really does not love us that much or he cannot stand anybody or anything like him or something else).

Yes I do say no!

Because G-d lacks the power? or because he is selfish? Why do you limit G-d and what he can do? And why won't you answer this simple question? Perhaps I could understand you "no" if you would say why you think G-d can't.

God is not our Heavenly Father in the same sense that our Earthly Father is.

What scripture gave you that idea?

Where in the Bible does it make reference to man becoming God?

How many do you want? and how many time do you want them?

1. According to scripture - In all creation what being was man created to be most like? Hint - it is not frogs or dogs.

2. Matt 5:48. What does the word "Perfect" mean in scripture.

3. What does it mean in the ancient world (the time when scriptures were written) for someone to take upon them the name of another?

4. What will man inherit of G-d - some part or all that he has?

5. For this I want you to look back through posts and ask yourself - what upsets you about LDS. Is it our good works? or is it that you object to our "blaspheious" doctrine that we being but a man make ourselves G-d? You did not say that did you? Now look at John 10:33. How did Jesus answer this question?

Finely - in what way should we not be like G-d?

The Traveler

[ALatterDaySaint]

You will see the same surprise, shock even, when you explain to us that you believe you are are actually God-essence, that you not only existed before your physical birth, but that you are eternal--and that you shall become the same as Christ (GOD, not god, in our view).

If Jesus Christ, the Begotten Son of God teaches us, man, to pray to His father, and our father then what other course of thought can I take than to believe that I am a son of God also? When the Lord taught the diciples to pray he began the prayer with "Our Father who is in Heaven..."

You use two terms that diminish our significance in the Heavenly Father's eyes: "pets" and "little things." The problem is that these two examples distance us from our CREATOR. Better to compare us to a prized creation--the artist's greatest masterpiece, the crafter's greatest craft, the writer's opus, etc. In us is the heart, the love, the passion, the nobility of God's highest creation. We are his masterpiece, his opus, his finest production. Yes He is in us--and we are in that dearest place in his heart.

A masterpiece decays in time. An opus, is forgotten or ignored. But a child, that is worth dying for. I do not believe God would have his only begotten Son "whom he is well pleased" die in the manner in which he did, or at all for that matter, for a simple "masterpiece". I would not sacrifice a stranger, let alone a precious offspring for the sake of even the most valued work of art, poetry, sculpture,... I do not believe the LDS faith lowers God and raises man. I believe it sees man for what he truly is and thus allows us to see more clearly that we can not know in this life how glorious and awsome God is. But, not knowing is the plan. This life is for testing our faith.

Bottom-line: and this is simple, but profound. You accuse non-LDS believers of diminishing humanity and elevating God, while we see you exalting humanity and diminishing the Heavenly Father.

I can only speak for myself but I do not accuse non-LDS of any such thing. I simply know that attacking one's value and identity is the tactic of any foe.

Its like the religions that admit that Jesus was a "good man", or a "great teacher, prophet, etc.." All of that is nice and honoring but it is not what He is. Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus is no prophet, He is the great I Am. So when satan convinced us that we were God's prized and most precious "creation" he began to chip away at our identity and at the truth. We've gone from litteral children of Heavenly Father, who has a plan for us, to pieces of masterful art that some how offended the artist and so must be saved by the shedding of innocent blood. Any artist will show you that if the art is not up to standard, it is scrapped and a new piece is begun. But we are not mear creation, we are not scrapable. God made a way to redeem us and recieve us back into His presense.

[Guest Monica]

Very well said ALatterDaySaint!

God made us to be His children.

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

[Christos]

The meaning of the word "image" in Genesis 1. (BTW, we weren't created like God....we were created in his image)

צלם

tselem

tseh'-lem

From an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, that is, (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence a representative figure, especially an idol: - image, vain shew.

Also, God is Spirit, we are physical.

God is not made of matter, we are. God created matter.

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

[Traveler]

The meaning of the word "image" in Genesis 1. (BTW, we weren't created like God....we were created in his image)

צלם

tselem

tseh'-lem

From an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, that is, (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence a representative figure, especially an idol: - image, vain shew.

One point missing from your Hebrew lesson. This use in Genesis applies to a physical representative or figure. Meaning a physical copy of a physical thing.

The Traveler

[ALatterDaySaint]

Also, God is Spirit, we are physical.

God is not made of matter, we are. God created matter.

How convieniant that you over look the fact that Jesus said "If ye have seen me ye have seen the Father" and we also know that Jesus recieved a body of flesh and was resurected and assended into Heaven in that physical body of flesh. So, that leads us to conclude that God has a physical body of flesh.

But aside from this flesh, spirit too is matter. A matter we can not comprehend fully, just as we can not fully comprehend rays of light. Perhaps light is made of the same type of matter as spirit?

[Christos]

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Also, God is Spirit, we are physical.

God is not made of matter, we are. God created matter.

How convieniant that you over look the fact that Jesus said "If ye have seen me ye have seen the Father" and we also know that Jesus recieved a body of flesh and was resurected and assended into Heaven in that physical body of flesh. So, that leads us to conclude that God has a physical body of flesh.

But aside from this flesh, spirit too is matter. A matter we can not comprehend fully, just as we can not fully comprehend rays of light. Perhaps light is made of the same type of matter as spirit?

That is because Jesus IS God!!!!!!!!!!

One of the oldest titles of God is "Father".

Not only that but Jesus and God are cosubstantiational. They are of the same essence. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

If you are going to say the Father is always a seperate part of the Trinity, then there should be a part of the Trinity called "Jehova", another called "Lord", another called "Elohim" etc etc.

God is Father.

Jesus is Father.

Stop thinking of Father and Son in Earthly terms. Think wider.

[prisonchaplain]

Thought: Though G-d created man, G-d does not referred to man as a creation. I wish in this discussion we would all concede that mankind is the “children” of G-d and that he is our “Father in Heaven”. The concept that we cannot be his “only begotten” is ill advised. G-d only had one “only begotten in the flesh” that is Jesus Christ. This is true but I would point out that being an “only begotten” is not the criteria of what a G-d is, for G-d was G-d and a complete G-d with all that defines G-d, prior to the event that produced an “only begotten”. Though you may think so, this “only begotten concept” does not define what is G-d, only something G-d has done (like the difference between a creator and a creation).

1st. I'm not so sure that saying God does not refer to us as creation is true or relevent. Yes, we were clearly created by Him, on the 6th Day. There is no biblical reference to premortal human existence. So, we are not the begotten children--we are the created children of God.

Back to the human embryo. With all the arguing there was no proof that an embryo is a human. Likewise there is no proof that a human is a g-d. This however, is not the point. The point is that even though a human embryo exhibits nothing that can legally be used to identify it as human – Not one single thing (Otherwise there would be no legal abortion); so a human exhibits nothing that can be argued to identify it as a g-d. But such arguments miss what is being presented. It is not that man, as we understand him, is some kind of a g-d – it is that G-d just as G-d can make a human from an embryo, G-d can make a g-d from man. Christos says NO!! but has yet to say or admit that it is because G-d can’t (lacks the power or knowledge or ability or something) or won’t (because he is selfish and wants g-dness all to himself or really does not love us that much or he cannot stand anybody or anything like him or something else).

Essential to this discussion are two understandings of the non-LDS Christian belief system: 1. Humans have no premortal existence. 2. God is unchanging, and was never a man or like a man--He was and is and is to come--the same yesterday, today, and forever.

That said, it becomes one of those nonsense questions to ask, "Can the eternal God take a created, limited being and turn it into an eternal, unlimited one? I suppose He could create an eternal past and paste it to the created being, but we quickly degenerate into absurdities.

The LDS position is a package deal--it requires that humans have an eternal premortal existence. Furthermore, it makes much more sense IF the Heavenly Father is an evolving God.

First - the sin of Adan and Eve was not trying to become like G-d. The Sin was in being disobedient to his commandment not to take the fruit.

Yes, but why did they take the fruit? My post addressed that question, not the very limited "what physical act did they commit?"

I do not understand why you quote Satan as a reliable and truthful source. Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and that did not make them G-ds.

Are you serious? You don't usually play word games, so perhaps you truly misunderstood me. My meaning was pretty clear though. Satan LIED to Adam & Eve--convincing them that if they took the fruit they would become like God. It's not a far leap of understanding that if you're like God you no longer need Him. Thus, God's punishments and anger become understandable. Adam & Eve were not hungry, nor merely curious. They rebelled--they attempted to become independent from God.

I also submit that: as easy as G-d can make a human embryo to become a human being so can G-d make a man to become a g-d.

In our exalted states we shall become godlike, but never of the same essence as the one true, eternal, living God. We are his creation, his subjects, not his co-equal partners.

But if someone like Satan that thinks or even knows he is better than everybody else is suddenly faced with the prospect that the great society would be comprised of “equal” citizens – That could cause a war, even in heaven.)

We do indeed become greater than the angels. It is not necessary for us to become co-equal partners with God to achieve that. We are his highest creation--higher than the angels.

If G-d cannot make a g-d out of a man – then say so openly, let us all admit it – that G-d has his limitations. If he can – why do some of you oppose it as impossible?

Again, understanding that non-LDS believers do not accept the premortal existence of humans, and also that we believe God to be a unique, uncreated, unchanging, and alone in his eternal existence, it quickly becomes clear that to ask why God cannot transform creation into eternal God raises questions that require absurdities.

Jesus is the answer and the proof to the question. As man is (Jesus) G-d once was.

Yes, but we call this the incarnation. Man never became God. Rather, God the Son willingly became "a little lower than the angels" to fulfill the plan of redemption.

As G-d (Jesus) is , man can become.

Jesus is uniquely God the Son, co-eternal and co-equal with the Father. We shall never become what He is and has always, in essence been. Keep in mind, too, that non-LDS believer see the Father and Son being essentially the same, whereas we, his creation, are not.

I do not understand why all other Christians have such a problem with this?

Creation never becomes essentially the Creator.

[prisonchaplain]

Yes. I know. We clearly do not agree.

Now what?

Clarity is a beautiful thing. If we have truly come to the place where we understand correctly what each other believes, we have accomplished something wonderful. We do not embrace outlandish caractures of each other. Instead, we know each other, respect each others spiritual journey, and now can allow the Holy Spirit to do his convincing as we occasionally continue to dialogue.

As the elder missionary in God's Army said: we don't do the converting. That's the Holy Spirit's work.

Because even some of us who are so-called "Christians" have been deceived by Satan. Now come on. Admit it. You already knew that, didn't you? :)

Yeah, interfaith dialogue is so messy, slow, and frustrating. Far easier to draw lines in the sand, declare sides, and begin firing.

[prisonchaplain]

Because G-d lacks the power? or because he is selfish? Why do you limit G-d and what he can do? And why won't you answer this simple question? Perhaps I could understand you "no" if you would say why you think G-d can't.

Can God make a rock so big He can't lift it. An absurdity. Can God transform a finite, limited, created being into a co-eternal, co-equal partner with Him? An absurdity.

God is not our Heavenly Father in the same sense that our Earthly Father is.

What scripture gave you that idea?

In Genesis humanity is created by God. Humans reproduce through 'coupling' with the opposite gender, same species. Do we really need Scripture (beyond Gen. 1-2) to explain this???

1. According to scripture - In all creation what being was man created to be most like? Hint - it is not frogs or dogs.

The question itself is strange. What in all creation were frogs or dogs most created to be like? Yes, we are created with godlike characteristics, and his image is within us. That does not mean that we are essentially God.

Matt 5:48. What does the word "Perfect" mean in scripture.

In the context of the passage, I took it to me, "Yes, I really expect you do obey all this--even to love your enemies." There is nothing in the context of Matthew 5--speaking to how Jesus wants us to behave that would suggest He suddenly stops his flow of thought and so, "Oh, by the way, I want you to become God."

3. What does it mean in the ancient world (the time when scriptures were written) for someone to take upon them the name of another?

You're obviously going somewhere with the question, but you'll have to dig up some reputable Jewish scholars that suggest it was possible for humans to become God, before I could even think about gong there with you.

4. What will man inherit of G-d - some part or all that he has?

We won't inherit his essence, if that's the question.

5. For this I want you to look back through posts and ask yourself - what upsets you about LDS. Is it our good works? or is it that you object to our "blaspheious" doctrine that we being but a man make ourselves G-d? You did not say that did you? Now look at John 10:33. How did Jesus answer this question?

Except that Jesus was and is God the Son. And, we are not. We are his created children.

Finely - in what way should we not be like G-d?

In our essence.

[Ray]

prisonchaplain,

I’m going to point out a few things for you now because you still don’t seem to know our (LDS) doctrine, even though we (LDS) have discussed some of these points several times in our (LDS) posts, and I thought you understood these things… but I am NOT doing this with the idea that I can convince of any of these truths I am stating… I’m simply going to state our (LDS) beliefs because you still don’t seem to know what we (LDS) believe.

1st. I'm not so sure that saying God does not refer to us as creation is true or relevant. Yes, we were clearly created by Him, on the 6th Day. There is no biblical reference to premortal human existence. So, we are not the begotten children--we are the created children of God.

#1: There are several “biblical references” which refer to our (Man's) premortal existence, and you can find those for yourself or with our [LDS] Topical Guide… at http://scriptures.lds.org/

#2: We (LDS) do not believe and never have claimed to have been created as begotten children of God in the flesh, if you’re referring to us as children of God that He created by creating our flesh and blood.

#3: We (LDS) do claim to have been created by God as children of God as spirits… and there are also some “biblical references” which can help you to see this point.

Essential to this discussion are two understandings of the non-LDS Christian belief system: 1. Humans have no premortal existence. 2. God is unchanging, and was never a man or like a man--He was and is and is to come--the same yesterday, today, and forever.

That said, it becomes one of those nonsense questions to ask, "Can the eternal God take a created, limited being and turn it into an eternal, unlimited one? I suppose He could create an eternal past and paste it to the created being, but we quickly degenerate into absurdities.

#4: We (LDS) can see what you do not believe, as we (LDS) share our beliefs, but it should not be considered a “nonsense” question to question your own ideas… because by asking you those questions we’re hoping to help you receive an answer … which is not a nonsense purpose if we can help you achieve that goal.

The LDS position is a package deal--it requires that humans have an eternal premortal existence. Furthermore, it makes much more sense IF the Heavenly Father is an evolving God.

#5: Our “LDS position” doesn’t "require" that humans have an eternal premortal existence, our “LDS position” is simply our (LDS) belief that the scriptures reveal knowledge from God on this issue... through personal revelations which have been given to us, which first came to some other prophets of God.

#6: We (LDS) do not believe and never have stated our Heavenly Father is an evolving God, like us… because He’s already achieved His state of perfection that is known as God by Man.

Yes, but why did they take the fruit? My post addressed that question, not the very limited "what physical act did they commit?"…

…Satan LIED to Adam & Eve--convincing them that if they took the fruit they would become like God. It's not a far leap of understanding that if you're like God you no longer need Him. Thus, God's punishments and anger become understandable. Adam & Eve were not hungry, nor merely curious. They rebelled--they attempted to become independent from God.

#7: Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit so they could become more like God than they were… and they never could have become more like God without a knowledge of good and evil.

#8: When Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit they actually did become more like God, so the lie that Satan told them was NOT in saying they would become more like God, but in saying they wouldn’t die… and yes there are some scriptures to show that they became more like God after eating that fruit.

#9: We (LDS) don’t claim that we don’t need God even though we are now more like Him, and we also don't believe we will ever come to the point where we won't need Him, or love Him, any more.

#10: When Adam and Eve “rebelled” they had already received their independence from God, and there is nothing at all that is “bad” or “wrong’ with being independent persons… but with our independence it is best to follow God by choosing to become more like God, otherwise we won’t achieve our state of perfection by becoming like those who are God.

In our exalted states we shall become godlike, but never of the same essence as the one true, eternal, living God. We are his creation, his subjects, not his co-equal partners.

#11: We (all of Man) are already godlike as children of God and with our knowledge of good and evil, as prophets through scriptures can tell you, and we (all of Man) may become to be more like God as we choose to follow our Savior.

#12: We (all of Man) are already of the same essence as God because we (all of Man) are literally God’s children, and the essence of "us" is also eternal, but we will only live as God now lives by choosing to follow our Savior.

#13: Through the atonement of Jesus Christ we (all of Man) may become co-equal partners and joint-heirs with God through Jesus Christ… not His servants, not His subjects, but joint-heirs of all He (Jesus Christ) has when we have become exactly like Him.

Again, understanding that non-LDS believers do not accept the premortal existence of humans, and also that we believe God to be a unique, uncreated, unchanging, and alone in his eternal existence, it quickly becomes clear that to ask why God cannot transform creation into eternal God raises questions that require absurdities.

#14: Absurdities to those who believe like you, perhaps, but not to those who can learn to become like God, and we (LDS) believe that is possible for all who seek the truth and a knowledge of God through our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ... instead of accepting what Satan or Man tries to say in his role or work as a deceiver.

Or in other words, prisonchaplain, I’m simply trying to tell you that you should seek the truth by learning directly from God, and I’m NOT telling you to believe anyone other than God as they tell you what they think or believe … although I do believe it might do some good for you to know what we (LDS) truly believe, and how we interpret the scriptures, so you can then commune with God about what we believe and listen to what He will tell you.

Man never became God. Rather, God the Son willingly became "a little lower than the angels" to fulfill the plan of redemption.

#15: Man was created as the offspring of God, and many of us are becoming more like God… but No, we won’t ever be our Father in heaven, who we (Man) often refer to as God.

#16: Man only appears “a little lower than the angels” to fulfill the plan of redemption.

Or in other words, all of our spirits (the spirits of Man) were created by God in heaven (the Celestial kingdom) before we came to this Earth… and we may all become to be even more like God by accepting the gospel of Jesus Christ.

And btw, if we could see our spirits, as they were created in heaven, we would all see that we had glory before we came here, but we will lose our glory and not get it back if we reject what God tells us through Jesus, and what Jesus tells us through the Holy Ghost... when we will have then become what can then be called either a prophet of God, or a prophetess.

Jesus is uniquely God the Son, co-eternal and co-equal with the Father. We shall never become what He is and has always, in essence been. Keep in mind, too, that non-LDS believer see the Father and Son being essentially the same, whereas we, his creation, are not.

#17: Jesus is uniquely the only one of the children of our Father who was created by our Father in the flesh, with no mortal Father like ours, but all of us who were created as male children of our Father were spiritually created as sons by our Father… and daughters are like their Mother.

#18: All of us, all of Man, were and are co-eternal with God as intelligence … but we will only develop to be co-equal with God if we accept ALL intelligence through the gospel.

#19: All of us, or all of Man, can become what God is through the gospel, and we already are in essence like God because God is literally our Progenitor, who created us as male and female, or in the images of God our Father and Mother, and God is trying to raise us to become like They are as do and believe what God tells us by our own free will and choices.

#20: We [LDS] already know you don’t agree with these points, but we (LDS) still do.

Or in other words, while you and others of Man say we aren't or can't, we (LDS) say we are and can... because God has told us those truths.

Creation never becomes essentially the Creator.

#21: All offspring created by any creator are inherently or "essentially” like their creator, although not immediately after they are first created because they have not grown up yet… but all offspring can become just like their creator by fulfilling their full measure of creation... or by becoming as perfect as their creator.

And btw, I understand how you can get “lost” by knowing a creator can create something that is NOT like the creator, but in this regard our Creator did Create us in a different sense than His other creations… and He can personally assure you of that just as He has already assured us that He did.

For instance, to put this in more “human” terms for you, although you as a parent can create a child as well as a work of art, like a fly on a fishing line, your most glorious creation is your offspring, regardless of any of your other creations.

Anyway, that’s it from me. I know I can’t convince you of the truth, and I'm not even trying to do that, but it would be nice if you’d at least get your facts straight concerning what [LDS] really believe… and for that I'll recommend you to the the General Authorities of our church and the missionaries they can and do authorize.

Heh, after posting my message I saw you post this…

Yeah, interfaith dialogue is so messy, slow, and frustrating. Far easier to draw lines in the sand, declare sides, and begin firing.

… so I guess I should explain what I meant.

Tommy, if you know anything about God who can help to teach you ALL truth, you should also know that there is somebody called Satan, whose work is to deceive and lure us away from the truth by trying to spread false doctrine… and the reason any of us have a hard time knowing the truth is because of the influence of Satan who works against us, by working both directly and indirectly in all of our lives to keep us from knowing the truth.

Okay now? That’s all I meant. To know the truth we must learn from God, because there are many people who have been deceived by Satan and the precepts of men he has influenced… and I’m not saying that the deceived persons are bad, or evil, but that is the reason they don’t know the truth.

Heh, and whether you believe me or not, that was what I actually meant, when I said what I said to Traveler.

And btw, yes, I do know which side of the line you are on now on some of the things you believe, and I know I have some beliefs from God that you haven't learned from Him (yet, I hope), so I’m trying to help you know ALL that is true, by telling you WHO to believe… instead of any other "person" who has some beliefs, who could and can be deceived, and is spreading some deceptions they truly believe... by spreading false beliefs from Satan... even though they "think" they're from God.

Heh, anyway. Take care now, brother. You really don't need to learn anything from me. :)

[Traveler]

Back to the human embryo. With all the arguing there was no proof that an embryo is a human. Likewise there is no proof that a human is a g-d. This however, is not the point. The point is that even though a human embryo exhibits nothing that can legally be used to identify it as human – Not one single thing (Otherwise there would be no legal abortion); so a human exhibits nothing that can be argued to identify it as a g-d. But such arguments miss what is being presented. It is not that man, as we understand him, is some kind of a g-d – it is that G-d just as G-d can make a human from an embryo, G-d can make a g-d from man. Christos says NO!! but has yet to say or admit that it is because G-d can’t (lacks the power or knowledge or ability or something) or won’t (because he is selfish and wants g-dness all to himself or really does not love us that much or he cannot stand anybody or anything like him or something else).

Essential to this discussion are two understandings of the non-LDS Christian belief system: 1. Humans have no premortal existence. 2. God is unchanging, and was never a man or like a man--He was and is and is to come--the same yesterday, today, and forever.

That said, it becomes one of those nonsense questions to ask, "Can the eternal God take a created, limited being and turn it into an eternal, unlimited one? I suppose He could create an eternal past and paste it to the created being, but we quickly degenerate into absurdities.

The LDS position is a package deal--it requires that humans have an eternal premortal existence. Furthermore, it makes much more sense IF the Heavenly Father is an evolving God.

Your thinking has a serious flaw. Note where you say {Can the eternal God take a created, limited being and turn it into an eternal, unlimited one? I suppose He could create an eternal past and paste it to the created being, but we quickly degenerate into absurdities.}

If what you say is true a created being cannot have "Eternal Life".

The Traveler

[Ray]

...but some will say we can have eternal life in the future, thinking we did not have that in the past, but with a little more thinking they will then think it's at least possible that we did live in the past... which will then hopefully prepare them to receive some faith from God as He assures them that the possibility is not only possible, but true.

With hope, faith, and love from God we have everything we need to know what is true. :)

[prisonchaplain]

RAY: #1: There are several “biblical references” which refer to our premortal existence, and you can find those for yourself or with our [LDS] Topical Guide.

PC: I did my best, but this is all I found: http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=premortal

Keep in mind, that I intentionally used the term "biblical references" to refer to the Old and New Testaments. It's likely that premortal human existence as spirits is one of those LDS distinctives that is only found in the Triad.

#2: We [LDS] do not believe and never have claimed to have been created as begotten children of God in the flesh, if you’re referring to us as children of God that He created by creating our flesh and blood.

And yet, the teaching seems to be that we shall become essentially like Christ, and that there is a physical essence of the Heavenly Father that is within us. Do correct me if I've misunderstood. Also, keep in mind that I've probably conflated my conversations with you, Apostle Knight and Traveler--and perhaps am considering something one of them said.

#3: We [LDS] do claim to have been created by God as children of God as spirits… and there are also some “biblical references” which can help you to see this point.

I would encourage you to share any Old or New Testament references you have to the premortal existence of humans in any form.

#4: We [LDS] can see what you do not believe, as we [LDS] share our beliefs, but it should not be considered a “nonsense” question to question your own ideas… because by asking you those questions we’re hoping to help you receive an answer … which is not a nonsense purpose if we can help you achieve that goal.

A "nonsense question" is one that is logically impossible. I never impugne questioning itself. My point was that believing we can become as God is an absurdity within non-LDS Christian theology. In order for such a belief to work one also needs the belief in an evolving God, and in the premortal eternal existence of humans as spirits.

BTW, how is it that God can create something that has always been? Might it not be more appropriate to say that God transforms, changes, improves, etc.?

#5: Our “LDS position” doesn’t "require" that humans have an eternal premortal existence, our “LDS position” is simply our [LDS] belief that the scriptures reveal knowledge from God on this issue... through personal revelations which has been given to us which first came to some other prophets of God.

If non-LDS are correct that human existence begins at conception, then to say we can become eternal gods would require that the Heavenly Father "paste" an eternal past upon us. It would be an absurdity.

My sense is there are several distinctives like this--beliefs that only work well in tandem. Thus, the investigator is called upon to pray and receive assurance. Once Joseph Smith is determined to be a Prophet, once the BoM is determined to be true, then the other distinctives just start to fall in line. Thus, my suggestion that theologically, the LDS system of beliefs is most easily embraced as a package.

#6: We [LDS] do not believe and never have stated our Heavenly Father is an evolving God, like us… because He’s already achieved His state of perfection that is known as God by Man.

If God was once a man (or like a man), and now is more than that, then He changed--He evolved. Are you saying that He stopped growing, and that we'll catch up to Him?

#7: Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit so they could become more like God than they were… and they never could have become more like God without a knowledge of good and evil.

It was not a good thing they did, Ray. They sinned. God was disappointed, and issued punishment. He did so because of their rebellion. They tried to become like God, IMHO, because then they would not need God.

#8: When Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit they actually did become more like God, so the lie that Satan told them was NOT in saying they would become more like God, but in saying they wouldn’t die… and yes there are some scriptures to show that they became more like God after eating that fruit.

Yes, they became more like God the same way crack cocaine makes you feel better. The after effects were devestating. They did not gain a more equal footing with God. Rather, they broke the beautiful, innocent, and full relationship they had. They broke trust and introduced rebellion and, yes, disobedience into the spiritual equation.

#9: We [LDS] don’t claim that we don’t need God even though we are now more like Him, and we also don't believe we will ever come to the point where we won't need Him, or love Him, any more.

If you are becoming gods and more godlike, then, if the Father is no longer changing, would you not "catch up" with Him?

#10: When Adam and Eve “rebelled” they had already received their independence from God, and there is nothing at all that is “bad” or “wrong’ with being independent persons… but with our independence it is best to follow God by choosing to become more like God, otherwise we won’t achieve our state of perfection by becoming like those who are God.

Ray, when Adam & Eve rebelled, they were seeking to become like God so they would not need Him anymore. That's independence--much akin to teenage rebellion at its worst. There's little good to say about those who would dishonor their Father so. You seem to be saying that Adam & Eve's disobedience was a good thing.

#12: We are already of the same essence as God because we are literally God’s children, and the essence of "us" is also eternal, but we will only live as God now lives by choosing to follow our Savior. #13: Through the atonement of Jesus Christ we can become co-equal partners and joint-heirs with God through Jesus Christ… not His servants, not His subjects, but joint-heirs of all He has when we have become exactly like Him.

These are LDS distinctives that can only be found in the Triad.

Or in other words, prisonchaplain, I’m simply trying to tell you that you should seek the truth from God, and I’m NOT telling you to believe anyone other than God as they tell you what they think or believe … although I do believe it might do some good for you to know what we [LDS] truly believe, and how we interpret the scriptures, so you can then commune with God about what we believe and listen to what He will tell you.

I don't claim to be an expert on LDS beliefs, but my understanding is certainly superior to what it was last October, when I first began treading this site. :)

#17: Jesus is uniquely the only one of the children of our Father who was created by our Father in the flesh, with no mortal Father like ours, but all of us who were created as male children of our Father were spiritually created as sons by our Father… and daughters are like their Mother.

This is perhaps the most serious and wide area of divide between LDS and non-LDS. Non-LDS believe Jesus to be God the Son, co-eternal and co-equal with with the Father. It is not appropriate, and indeed may be blasphemous, in our view, to describe Jesus as a created being.

Do you see the irony here? We non-LDS say, "Lower your view of humanity. We are the creation of God, not the stuff from out of God." Then we say, "Raise your view of the Christ. He is the stuff of God, and has always been so."

#18: All of us, all of Man, were and are co-eternal with God as intelligence … but we will only develop to be co-equal with God if we accept ALL intelligence through the gospel.

I stumbled upon this belief about a month ago and was truly shocked. I had not known that LDS believe that humanity is eternal. You might want to relabel your headings in Genesis 1 as "The Transformation" rather than "The Creation." Ray, I know you grew up in the CoC--how did this hit you when you first heard it? Were you surprised, or had you come to the place of believing the other revelations, so this must be true too?

#21: All offspring created by any creator are inherently or "essentially” like their creator, although not immediately after they are first created because they have not grown up yet… but all offspring can become just like their creator by fulfilling their full measure of creation... or by becoming as perfect as their creator.

This just isn't so. Children are essentially what their parents are, but not creation. Creation is what the Maker makes them to be. "Offspring" is not equal to "Creation." Offspring are the result of opposite genders of the same species coupling. Creation is something we make.

And btw, I understand how you can get “lost” by knowing a creator can create something that is NOT like the creator, but in this regard our Creator did Create us in a different sense than His other creations… and He can personally assure you of that just as He has already assured us that He did.

You are describing a God who gives birth, not one who makes. The Genesis account is one of making, not giving birth. The language of the creation accounts in Genesis 1-2 does not seem to lend itself to your interpretation.

For instance, to put this in more “human” terms for you, although you as a parent can create a child as well as a work of art, like a fly on a fishing line, your most glorious creation is your offspring, regardless of any of your other creations.

No, this is wordplay. We don't create children, we give birth to them, and then train them up in the way they should go.

Tommy, if you know anything about God who can help to teach you ALL truth, you should also know that there is somebody called Satan, whose work is to deceive and lure us away from the truth by trying to spread false doctrine… and the reason any of us have a hard time knowing the truth is because of the influence of Satan who works against us, by working both directly and indirectly in all of our lives to keep us from knowing the truth.

Ray, I know what you meant. However, in the context of our conversation it wouldn't be hard for people to believe you were implying that I was influenced and influencing on behalf of Satan.

Okay now? That’s all I meant. To know the truth we must learn from God, because there are many people who have been deceived by Satan and the precepts of men he has influenced… and I’m not saying that the deceived persons are bad, or evil, but that is the reason they don’t know the truth.

Ray, if you are implying that I am deceived by Satan, I'd merely suggest to you that such observations do little to enhance interfaith dialogues. It's understood that we don't agree, that we both believe that we are right and the other views are in error, and we may have personal speculations as to why to other is wrong and won't see the truth--but to tell someone they are directed by the Enemy is probably not the most fruitful approach to sharing your faith (unless you truly believe the Holy Spirit led you to say such a thing ).

You really don't need to learn any more from me. :)

[prisonchaplain]

Your thinking has a serious flaw. Note where you say {Can the eternal God take a created, limited being and turn it into an eternal, unlimited one? I suppose He could create an eternal past and paste it to the created being, but we quickly degenerate into absurdities.}

If what you say is true a created being cannot have "Eternal Life".

If a being has always been, and had no start, it wasn't created. God might transform the being, but He would not be creating it.

On the other hand, if we do have beginnings, then I suppose instead of saying we are eternal, we might become eternal. Or, you could just say I will be living forever and ever.

[Traveler]

<div class='quotemain'>

Your thinking has a serious flaw. Note where you say {Can the eternal God take a created, limited being and turn it into an eternal, unlimited one? I suppose He could create an eternal past and paste it to the created being, but we quickly degenerate into absurdities.}

If what you say is true a created being cannot have "Eternal Life".

If a being has always been, and had no start, it wasn't created. God might transform the being, but He would not be creating it.

On the other hand, if we do have beginnings, then I suppose instead of saying we are eternal, we might become eternal. Or, you could just say I will be living forever and ever.

Let us be clear - I am talking about "Eternal Life" - See John 3:15. According to what you posted G-d cannot do this any more that make a stone he cannot lift. I think this argument has a serious flaw. If you like you can realize a woops, declair "king's X" and start this over. :)

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

[Let us be clear - I am talking about "Eternal Life" - See John 3:15. According to what you posted G-d cannot do this any more that make a stone he cannot lift. I think this argument has a serious flaw. If you like you can realize a woops, declair "king's X" and start this over. :)

You'll have to explain yourself. My saying that God making a mortal being with a definite starting point into one that had no beginning is an absurdity.

The verse in question: John 3:15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. KJV

informs me that if I believe in Jesus I shall THEN have eternal life. Of course God can grant us life everlasting. The promise in John's gospel is quite different from saying that the Heavenly Father would paste onto our lives an eternal past. The issue of premortal existence is nowhere on John's radar screen. Besides, if it were, does this mean that only those who believe in Christ will GAIN a premortal eternal existence? Again, an absurdity.

[Ray]

RAY: #1: There are several “biblical references” which refer to our premortal existence, and you can find those for yourself or with our [LDS] Topical Guide.

PC: I did my best, but this is all I found: http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=premortal

Keep in mind, that I intentionally used the term "biblical references" to refer to the Old and New Testaments.

I understood what you meant by “biblical references”, but you (and we) can still find more references to that topic at the scripture site I gave you than you seemed to be able to find by “doing your best” to look them up, but perhaps that was because you weren't familiar with how to use that site to help you look them up. So maybe, just maybe, I can teach you how to use that site, although you still don’t need ME to teach you this because you can learn with help from God.

Anyway, if you (and we) will go to that scripture site again, http://scriptures.lds.org/, you (and we) can see those scriptures are divided according to the different “books” they’re in, ie, the Old Testamant, the New Testament, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine & Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.

And if you (and we) will look below the link to the scriptures that are in the Pearl of Great Price, you (and we) can see there are some links to “STUDY HELPS”, which includes a Topical Guide…which is the Topical Guide I was referring to in my other post.

And if you (and we) will click on that link, ie, the link to the Topical Guide, you (and we) can see some letters of the Alphabet with links to different topics, with the letters of the alphabet corresponding to the first letter of the word or phrase referring to the topic you (and we) can look up to study those topics.

For example, you (and we) can look up the scriptures on the topic of “Premortal Existence” by clicking on the letter P, which will send you (and us) to a list of topics that start with the letter P, and by scrolling down that list you (and we) can find that the topic of “Premortal Existence” is actually referenced in the Topical Guide as “Premortal Life”, with some other suggested topics which are related to that topic.

And btw, when you (and we) click on the link to “Premortal Life” that is in our Topical Guide, you (and we) can see that the suggested topics are the only source of scriptures, which is actually trying to teach you (and us) that you (and we) should use other titles for this topic and look at those other topic titles to find the actual scriptures.

For example, by clicking on the suggested topic titled “Man, Antemortal Existence of”, you (and we) can be taken to a list of scriptures which can lead us to the knowledge of how or in what manner Man (all of us) existed before being mortal, with insights from those scriptures… and I can count 19 different scriptures or scripture passages which are in the Bible alone. (12 in the list and 7 at the bottom suggesting that we should "See also" ...)

And I also suggest that you study, ponder and pray about the scriptures in the other suggested topics for this topic, entitled “Council in Heaven”, “Spirit Body”, and “Spirit Creation”, and any other suggested topic titles you (and we) can find as you (and we) search those other topics... and receive inspiration from God.

It's likely that premortal human existence as spirits is one of those LDS distinctives that is only found in the Triad.

I just showed you the Bible contains at least 19 different scriptures or scripture passages on this topic, while also showing you (and others) how to find them, so the statement you just made was based on a lack of all true knowledge about it.

And btw, so are most of your other comments, but instead of trying to spend my life trying to teach you, apparently to little or no avail, I’ll suggest you (and others) learn from the God, and the scriptures, and other prophets of God who are living today... who write as well as read the "thoughts" that God can give to them (and all of us).