Job's Solution

[prisonchaplain]

Job is a fascinating book--especially for people of faith in prisons. It's easy to relate to one who has lost much.

It dawned on me, just today, that when Job went to prayer, after his many losses, he did not pray for the restoration of family, material, or even health. He simply wanted to hear from God--to know that God was still there for him.

Perhaps Job already realized that it was not the big family, the possessions, or even physical vitality that made life meaningful. It was communion with his Creator.

Instead of trying to recapture what we once had let us simply seek the Creator, and his kingdom.

[Snow]

Job is a fascinating book--especially for people of faith in prisons. It's easy to relate to one who has lost much.

It dawned on me, just today, that when Job went to prayer, after his many losses, he did not pray for the restoration of family, material, or even health. He simply wanted to hear from God--to know that God was still there for him.

Perhaps Job already realized that it was not the big family, the possessions, or even physical vitality that made life meaningful. It was communion with his Creator.

Instead of trying to recapture what we once had let us simply seek the Creator, and his kingdom.

Do you take the Book of Job to be literal history?

[boyando]

Job is a fascinating book--especially for people of faith in prisons. It's easy to relate to one who has lost much.

It dawned on me, just today, that when Job went to prayer, after his many losses, he did not pray for the restoration of family, material, or even health. He simply wanted to hear from God--to know that God was still there for him.

Perhaps Job already realized that it was not the big family, the possessions, or even physical vitality that made life meaningful. It was communion with his Creator.

Instead of trying to recapture what we once had let us simply seek the Creator, and his kingdom.

Maybe I took the story of Job alittle different. As I remember , it went something like this. Job was walking upright before the lord. Satan, thought that he couldn't temped Job because of all the blessing he had. So satan was allowed to take away blessings from Job, starting with the thing that was of least importance to Job, his wealth.

After he had lost everything, he didn't think that his creater wasn't there, but that he had offended the lord in some way.

In the Old Testament it is rare for a story to make just one point. Here are just a few of the pionts that I get from the story of Job. 1 everything comes second to love of the lord. 2 the righteous go through trials and are blessed after the trials of there faith. 3 Job being a righteous man had thing in proper order of desire.

I know that tis doesn't very all that much from your statment but when you add more to this lesson, it make it a even more beautiful story.

Now to answer the qeustion is the book of Job a true story or a early parable? I don't know. I look forward to others few on the subject.

[prisonchaplain]

Do you take the Book of Job to be literal history?

Now that you ask that, it could only be so in the strict sense if the writer of Job had a revelation from God. Otherwise, how would he know about the conversation between God and Satan.

That said, yes, I think it was a retelling of what happened to Job.

Maybe I took the story of Job alittle different. ... After he had lost everything, he didn't think that his creater wasn't there, but that he had offended the lord in some way.

And yet, he vigorously defended himself against the contention of his friends that God was punishing him for some hidden sin. He repeatedly state that he was confident of his faithfulness to God, for which his friends accused him of arrogance. And, indeed, in the end, Job is vindicated, and God has his friends come under Job's authority as he leads them in worship.

In the Old Testament it is rare for a story to make just one point. Here are just a few of the pionts that I get from the story of Job. 1 everything comes second to love of the lord. 2 the righteous go through trials and are blessed after the trials of there faith. 3 Job being a righteous man had thing in proper order of desire.

Point #1 seems to be very much like my point--Job did not seek a restoration of what he had lost--he sought God.

[Snow]

Do you take the Book of Job to be literal history?

Now that you ask that, it could only be so in the strict sense if the writer of Job had a revelation from God. Otherwise, how would he know about the conversation between God and Satan.

That said, yes, I think it was a retelling of what happened to Job.

Here's a couple of the problems I have with that:

1. How is it that Satan is walking about with God's sons and presenting himself before God?

2. Does it sound reasonable that God would conspire with Satan to kill a righteous man's family as a wager or test?

[BenRaines]

I believe that Job, as written, had an understanding of the plan of salvation and the mortal loss of his family was not the end. Job later testifies that he knows after worms have destroyed his body even in the flesh he shall see God. Job knew and understood the resurrection.

Ben

[prisonchaplain]

Here's a couple of the problems I have with that: 1. How is it that Satan is walking about with God's sons and presenting himself before God?

First, to give us context:

(Job 1:6-7) One day the angels {6 Hebrew <the sons of God>} came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan {6 <Satan> means <accuser.>} also came with them. The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it." (NIV)

I'm not sure what the problem is here? Is it so surprising that God would speak with Satan in the midst of other angels?

2. Does it sound reasonable that God would conspire with Satan to kill a righteous man's family as a wager or test?

(Job 1:12) The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD. ... (Job 1:18-19) While he was still speaking, yet another messenger came and said, "Your sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother's house, when suddenly a mighty wind swept in from the desert and struck the four corners of the house. It collapsed on them and they are dead, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!" (NIV)

First, the sons were not so righteous. Second, Ben is right (I did see his response). This life is but a wisp in the light of eternity. Our Creator does indeed have the right to write the scripts of our lives. Ultimately, God will do right by everyone. No one will question his goodness or justice.

Job must have understood this much, in that his plea is not for a restoration of what he had, but simply a reassurance that all is well between him and his sovereign.

[Snow]

I'm not sure what the problem is here? Is it so surprising that God would speak with Satan in the midst of other angels?

Is it your belief that Satan hangs out with God's angels and freely engages in polite conversation with God?

First, the sons were not so righteous. Second, Ben is right (I did see his response). This life is but a wisp in the light of eternity. Our Creator does indeed have the right to write the scripts of our lives. Ultimately, God will do right by everyone. No one will question his goodness or justice.

How is it that the sons and daughters were not so righteous? Is that what the text says? Regardless, did they deserve death on account of a wager?

The questin is not whether or not God is good and just but whether what the author of Job wrote is literal history and whether what he wrote accurately represents God and God's actions.

[prisonchaplain]

How is it that the sons and daughters were not so righteous? Is that what the text says? Regardless, did they deserve death on account of a wager?

I had that sense from the practice of Job in making offerings for his children in case they cursed God. It is probably too speculative on my part to say that they were definitely "problem children."

Rather than suggesting that the children were killed due to a wager, one possibility is that the angels or messengers in Job 1 were all charged with testing God's creation. It's even possible that some of them came to report from other places in the universe. Satan could well have been charged with testing God's creation on earth.

Keep in mind also that Satan, in the NT is called "the accuser of the bretheren." Rather than "betting" God, Satan was prosecuting Job--challenging the true righteousness of the man. So, God allowed Satan to make his case, knowing full well that Job would do well.

As for the children, if they were righteous, then they will be rewarded for their part in Job's trial.

The questin is not whether or not God is good and just but whether what the author of Job wrote is literal history and whether what he wrote accurately represents God and God's actions.

Since the person Job is mentioned in Ezekiel and James, I'd argue that the Book of Job was considered authoritative, and is a true telling of what happened.

[Traveler]

The book of Job is one of the wonderful and fascinating books of the Old Testament. It is rich in ancient Hebrew literary form but never-the-less I truly believe that if the book was found today it would be denounced by most Christians (especially the scholars) as heresy, non-Biblical, Gnostic text and doctrine. Snow brings questions to the table that have long troubled the casual Christian student that is willing to study the text. But let us begin with what we know about the Book of Job.

The text is not part of those sacred text that was considered among the standard or cannon text known as “The Law” or the “Prophets”. It’s actual place of ancient origin or importance is completely unknown - it is a text of speculation. The entire text is written in what appears today as an ancient Hebrew poetic art form. This adds to the speculation that the story is a complete fabrication rather than a actual event. Plus the story line is similar to other non-Biblical myths and fables common to that time that the text was believed to have first been written.

There are two great guides that spiritually assist the LDS student of scripture. First is the knowledge that all scripture at it core testifies of the Christ and his mission to fallen man. And Second is the concept of a type and shadow. That scripture is not just a story but insight into things that have been and that will come to pass.

The book of Job is a marvelous look into the fall of man and the atonement of Christ. Verse 6 of Chapter 1 is confusing not only because of the fall of man but because of Satan’s excommunication from heaven and the Kingdom of G-d the Father. However, we learn from Luke chapter 4 that Satan has no problem or difficulty in presenting himself before Christ. I would submit that when the fall of man (Adam) took place that all the spirits of heaven to be born as men on earth were cut off from the Father and dwelt in a heavenly place where Jesus Christ reigned as a mediator king. Therefore Satan appears before G-d the Son and not G-d the Father.

Job testifies of the pre-mortal Christ as a king of heaven. This is an important doctrine and type and shadow to understanding of things. The story of Job is doctrine teaching us all of our fallen state in mortality. Not only are we in the grasp of Satan but Satan has power to destroy all good things that we can accumulate in life. The suffering of Job is a type and shadow of death (both physical and spiritual) and our hopelessness for anything good as well as Satan’s dominance over us. As we pass through the suffering of death which is the loss of all but our hope that G-d (Jesus Christ) will remember us and deliver us, ending our misery and suffering. Remember that Job was a “perfect” man (chapter 1 verse1) but had no power of his own goodness to deliver himself from suffering.

The Book of Job also testifies that by holding on to the remembrance of G-d (Jesus Christ) that in his mercy he will remember us and deliver us from our suffering and ill treatment by Satan. Job also testifies that we will be rewarded and blessed for our faithfulness.

I personally find the book of Job a wonderful testimony of Jesus Christ the Son of G-d and the mediator with the Father and of his deliverance from our fallen state.

The Traveler

[Guest ApostleKnight]

This adds to the speculation that the story is a complete fabrication rather than a actual event. Plus the story line is similar to other non-Biblical myths and fables common to that time that the text was believed to have first been written.

Regardless of those facts, aspects of the story literally happened, since Jesus in speaking to Joseph Smith refers to Job's experiences as a matter of historical record:

"Thou art not yet as Job; thy friends do not contend against thee, neither charge thee with transgression, as they did Job." (D&C 121:10)

As for the rest of your post Traveler, I really enjoyed reading it and agree with alot of your conclusions. You bring up excellent points for consideration, some which I had not thought about. Thanks for your comments!

[Snow]

Rather than suggesting that the children were killed due to a wager, one possibility is that the angels or messengers in Job 1 were all charged with testing God's creation. It's even possible that some of them came to report from other places in the universe. Satan could well have been charged with testing God's creation on earth.

Well that's not what the text says so it's merely speculation but why are you speculating that Satan was in the employ of God as some sort of beta tester?

Keep in mind also that Satan, in the NT is called "the accuser of the bretheren." Rather than "betting" God, Satan was prosecuting Job--challenging the true righteousness of the man. So, God allowed Satan to make his case, knowing full well that Job would do well.

As for the children, if they were righteous, then they will be rewarded for their part in Job's trial.

None of which makes the action seem just. If you or I were to do the same type of thing, It would be mass murder. Murder, even according to the Bible, is prohibited.

Since the person Job is mentioned in Ezekiel and James, I'd argue that the Book of Job was considered authoritative, and is a true telling of what happened.

How would Ezekiel or James know if Job was literally historical or not?

[ALatterDaySaint]

<div class='quotemain'>

Rather than suggesting that the children were killed due to a wager, one possibility is that the angels or messengers in Job 1 were all charged with testing God's creation. It's even possible that some of them came to report from other places in the universe. Satan could well have been charged with testing God's creation on earth.

Well that's not what the text says so it's merely speculation but why are you speculating that Satan was in the employ of God as some sort of beta tester?

I find this kind of interesting. PrisionChap, are you suggesting that perhaps these others are/were antagonist from other worlds where other children of God are/were being tested as we are here? That on this "day that the sons of God came to present themselves" that they were all the "accusers of their brethren" comming to make official accusation before the Lord at appointed times? After all this "day" happens more than once. 1:6 and 2:1 are examples. There seems to be a particular time set aside for this "presenting oneself to the Lord".

But, at the same time these are refered to as "sons of God" and thats not likley to be a description of evil spirits so perhaps these sons of God are status reporters of various places, events, situations, etc etc and Satan came because it is his role to do what it is that he does. However, the way that the Lord inquires of him "From whence comest thou? " makes me wonder if Satan's appearance was out of the norm. Or it could have been simply a formality. The accuser of the brethren who is the prince of the earth is asked "for the record, "where have you been and what have you been up to?".

I really enjoy this type of thing. So many ways to take it but the fun is trying to find the actual and literal truth to what is being said. We simply do not have all the facts and that makes it fun/frustraiting.

[prisonchaplain]

Well that's not what the text says so it's merely speculation but why are you speculating that Satan was in the employ of God as some sort of beta tester?

I'm suggesting that Satan accused Job, and that God allowed Job to be a showcase of what a devoted servant to God looks like. And, we continue to learn from this example today.

Of course, I'm starting with several presuppositions: that God is just, that servants who suffer will be amply rewarded, that what I'm learning about in the book of Job is not whether or not God is fair, but how to endure in times of suffering.

None of which makes the action seem just. If you or I were to do the same type of thing, It would be mass murder. Murder, even according to the Bible, is prohibited.

I start with the assumption that God is just, and try to learn from the stories with that as a given. So, the dialogue between Satan and God gives me insight into the joy God takes when his followers endure hardship, but remain faithful and loyal. The Devil loses the argument over my righteousness on that day. How literal or word for word the conversation is, my God is not capricious, nor whimsical--betting the Devil at my expense, if the mood strikes him. Again, I begin with the presupposition that God is just.

How would Ezekiel or James know if Job was literally historical or not?

I start also with the presupposition that Ezekiel and James were inspired in more than the literary sense. So, when they refer to Job as having been through some things and proven true, it means he did and was. I'll not discount the possibility that such is not the case, but it's where I start.

[Snow]

Of course, I'm starting with several presuppositions: that God is just,

Okay - so that's where you start. Now that you also suppose that God killed or allowed to be killed on a bet, Job's family, what is your theory of HOW God is just?

[prisonchaplain]

Okay - so that's where you start. Now that you also suppose that God killed or allowed to be killed on a bet, Job's family, what is your theory of HOW God is just?

I've already said that this assessment is deficient in my view. God and Satan were not equals hanging out, betting on what the human animals might do in response to negative stimuli. Satan accused Job, and God declared that Job would stand true in the face of adversity. As for the family that died--God will judge and reward/punish them according to his justice--a justice that is pure and true.

Snow, it's ironic that you, in somewhat stronger terms, ask the same question Job did: Why Lord? I know our relationship is right--I've been faithful--so why is this stuff happening? Are you there for me?

God's answer: creation doesn't advise creator about his world. Job, thankful that God is there and has revealed himself, says, "Amen....lead the way!" God restores his health, his wealth, and vindicates him before his friends and critics. It's an easy assumption that he started a new family that prospered in riches and virtue. It all ends well.

Job could accept the death of his family members because he believed God would do right by them. Can we not do likewise? It's the only comfort I can see in the face of so much badness that goes on.

[ALatterDaySaint]

as "ALatterDaySaint", who believes in the sealing ordanances of the Temple I believe that what kept Job from getting wroth with the Lord and life in general over the loss of his children is the knowledge he had that they were still litterally his children. Notice when Job is rewarded in the end the number of new children equals the number of children he "lost" yet everything else is roughly doubled in proportion. Why? Because the first group of children were/are still his children and if he'd had double that number on earth it would have trippled his reward. Thats the lesson that stands out to me even above the whole "trust in God" lesson. Or rather I should say this aspect reenforces "Trust in God".