The Womens' Movement

[Ray]

Yes, we all have an opinion, shanstress, and for whatever mine is worth to you, I know our heavenly Father is very well pleased with all the good things you do, specifically:

1) Being at home when your family is home, whether or not you give anyone a ride

2) Giving your family a ride to good places, whenever you do that “job” yourself

3) Doing the things you do for your home to make your home a good environment

4) Doing the things you do for your family to help them enjoy their lives

5) Helping to earn and give some “things” to your family which help them to have more joy

And on the flip side, our heavenly Father is not pleased, but not necessarily displeased, with your choice to work or have a career away from family and home instead of being a better mother and wife…

… but as long as you are trying to take care of your home and be at home when your family is there… unless our Father has other work for you to do which would take you away from your home and your family… He considers what you do to be good enough for them as long as you are doing your best.

Or in other words, to make my point a little more clear, I believe He would give you some bonus points for taking care of your home and family and doing all that “work” yourself, instead of paying or having other people do that work which is the best work a woman can do in her role as mother and wife.

And btw, this is not only my opinion, but the opinion of our Lord and heavenly Father, and though you may not choose to take their advice it is still the best way to live.

But as you say, everyone has their own opinion and you may choose the things you will do.

[shanstress70]

Yes, we all have an opinion, shanstress, and for whatever mine is worth to you, I know our heavenly Father is very well pleased with all the good things you do, specifically:

1) Being at home when your family is home, whether or not you give anyone a ride

2) Giving your family a ride to good places, whenever you do that “job” yourself

3) Doing the things you do for your home to make your home a good environment

4) Doing the things you do for your family to help them enjoy their lives

5) Helping to earn and give some “things” to your family which help them to have more joy

OK, I'm not sure what you're talking about here with giving someone a ride. Are you talking about my child riding a bus? He's in preschool, so my husband takes him when he goes to work at 10, then I pick him up after I get off work at 3. And when he starts elementary school, he will not ride the bus. My husband or myself will always take him and pick him up, meaning that I will probably drop some hours each week.

Or in other words, to make my point a little more clear, I believe He would give you some bonus points for taking care of your home and family and doing all that “work” yourself, instead of paying or having other people do that work which is the best work a woman can do in her role as mother and wife.

'All that work' would be housecleaning. I am quite sure God doesn't care if a woman does her own housecleaning. And I agree with you that the best work a woman can do is being a mother; however, please don't tell me that cleaning her house is up there, as important as mothering her child! That's a bit wacky.

And btw, this is not only my opinion, but the opinion of our Lord and heavenly Father, and though you may not choose to take their advice it is still the best way to live.

Wrong here, Ray. You are not my prophet. I do not believe prophets are necessary. I have my own relationship with Jesus Christ, and I can get guidance from Him on how to live my life. He may tell you the best way to live your life, but He tells you ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about me or my family. He tells me that He is pleased with the way I am living my life.

[Ray]

OK, I'm not sure what you're talking about here with giving someone a ride. Are you talking about my child riding a bus? He's in preschool, so my husband takes him when he goes to work at 10, then I pick him up after I get off work at 3. And when he starts elementary school, he will not ride the bus. My husband or myself will always take him and pick him up, meaning that I will probably drop some hours each week.

I simply meant that if you give your child a ride, or anyone else in a ride, that is much better than having him or them ride a bus. And I made that a separate line item simply because I simply wanted to tell you that is one of the good things you are doing.

Ray: … I believe He would give you some bonus points for taking care of your home and family and doing all that “work” yourself, instead of paying or having other people do that work which is the best work a woman can do in her role as mother and wife.

Shannon: 'All that work' would be housecleaning. I am quite sure God doesn't care if a woman does her own housecleaning. And I agree with you that the best work a woman can do is being a mother; however, please don't tell me that cleaning her house is up there, as important as mothering her child! That's a bit wacky.

All of the work involved in taking care of a home and family includes quite a bit more than “housecleaning”, and if you will take another look at the list I gave you, you might see how much more my wife does and has done.

Ray: And btw, this is not only my opinion, but the opinion of our Lord and heavenly Father, and though you may not choose to take their advice it is still the best way to live.

Shannon: Wrong here, Ray. You are not my prophet. I do not believe prophets are necessary. I have my own relationship with Jesus Christ, and I can get guidance from Him on how to live my life. He may tell you the best way to live your life, but He tells you ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about me or my family. He tells me that He is pleased with the way I am living my life.

I’m sure our Lord is pleased with the many good things you are doing… while hoping you will learn to do even better… or do you really believe you are already perfect and He is assuring you of that right now?

And btw, I do not claim to be a prophet for you and your family, but President Hinckley and the Apostles really are, so whether or not you accept what they tell you they are still our Lord’s prophets on Earth… not just to the Church, but to the whole world… including the people who reject them.

And btw, Shannon, whether you believe them or not, you are going to answer to our Lord for rejecting His prophets, and many of His prophets will live in your lifetime, whether or not you choose to accept them as such.

[shanstress70]

And btw, Shannon, whether you believe them or not, you are going to answer to our Lord for rejecting His prophets, and many of His prophets will live in your lifetime, whether or not you choose to accept them as such.

And I could say something about you following false prophets, as that is what I believe, since you were so rude to say such a thing to me, but I won't.

Enjoy your life Ray, and I'll enjoy mine. This is why I don't have conversations with you, normally. You force me to say things here that I otherwise wouldn't say.

[Guest bizabra]

RAY SAID: I simply meant that if you give your child a ride, or anyone else in a ride, that is much better than having him or them ride a bus. And I made that a separate line item simply because I simply wanted to tell you that is one of the good things you are doing.

SHANTRESS SAID: Are you talking about my child riding a bus? He's in preschool, so my husband takes him when he goes to work at 10, then I pick him up after I get off work at 3. And when he starts elementary school, he will not ride the bus.

BIZ: What's wrong with having the kid ride the bus? Eh?

[shanstress70]

RAY SAID: I simply meant that if you give your child a ride, or anyone else in a ride, that is much better than having him or them ride a bus. And I made that a separate line item simply because I simply wanted to tell you that is one of the good things you are doing.

SHANTRESS SAID: Are you talking about my child riding a bus? He's in preschool, so my husband takes him when he goes to work at 10, then I pick him up after I get off work at 3. And when he starts elementary school, he will not ride the bus.

BIZ: What's wrong with having the kid ride the bus? Eh?

Maybe nothing, these days. But I rode the bus when I was young, and I don't want my kid to have to endure it. Also, I just don't trust anyone I don't know to be responsible for driving my child around. I know there are people who have no choice, but I think that if it's possible, you should personally take them to school.

I also won't allow my child to be a latch-key kid like I was (before AND after school). I'd rather cut back to 30 hours instead of 40 to make sure I could take him and pick him up.

BUT, if I was a single parent and didn't have a choice (like my mom), I would do the best I could do.

[prisonchaplain]

Heh, well, I also feel and believe that all of us, including women, should be doing what our Lord and heavenly Father want us to do, not what some uf us, including women, feel we want and need.

Or in other words, which would you rather be and become, out of all the choices you have:

A wife and mother who devotes all of her life to home and family, without any other career.

OR

A wife and mother who devotes some of her life to home and family, while having another career.

Is there a right answer, here, Ray? Are you implying that God wants all women to stay home? Is there liberty in this area? In other words, is this choice over whether or not the wife is to work one that God allows the family to make, or has he preordained that women should stay at home unless starvation beckons?

And on the flip side, our heavenly Father is not pleased, but not necessarily displeased, with your choice to work or have a career away from family and home instead of being a better mother and wife…

But, what if the time away from home working provides subsidiary income for the family and allows mother to get some mental stimulation and break--thus making her more capable of parenting when she is home? Maybe the Heavenly Father would be very pleased in such a circumstance?

[john doe]

BIZ: What's wrong with having the kid ride the bus? Eh?

In my opinion, usually nothing. School bus drivers are generally trained professionals, and they have to have special licences to do so. They are one of the safest ways to get a child to school. Having lots of 'helicopter' parents insisting on driving their kids to school can actually cause problems and endanger other children going to and from the school. Just last month in my neighborhood, a child walking to school darted in front of a passing car and got hit. If she had been on a bus, she would not have been on the street.

If you're talking about the social dynamics of riding on a bus with lots of other people, why not try to teach your child how to deal positively with people from different backgrounds? If you're worried about violence, those things do make the news, but the incidents are relatively few and far between, especially when you factor in the number of school bus miles driven daily. Most school bus drivers are trained in how to deal with troublemakers, and they typically are dealt with swiftly and satisfactorily.

When I was in 8th grade, I had to ride a bus 5 miles into town, get off the bus at the high school, and ride another bus 30 miles to another town to attend junior high school. When I got to 9th grade, I was lucky enough to have to go only 15 miles on the second leg of the trip. I felt no ill effects from those days, other than the normal adolescent teasing, crushes, and angst experienced by most people that age. I learned to get my homework done on the bus, so I could have more time to play when I got home. If I had asked my mother to drive me to school, she would have laughed for a minute and then told me to get going. If every parent had decided that they were the only ones good enough to drive their precious little kids to school, the highways would have been crowded every morning, greatly increasing the chances of accidents and injury or death to those very children they were trying to protect.

I see nothing wrong with putting your child on a bus to school. It may even be good for them. If you want to avoid the drive, you could just homeschool.

[shanstress70]

BIZ: What's wrong with having the kid ride the bus? Eh?

In my opinion, usually nothing. School bus drivers are generally trained professionals, and they have to have special licences to do so. They are one of the safest ways to get a child to school. Having lots of 'helicopter' parents insisting on driving their kids to school can actually cause problems and endanger other children going to and from the school. Just last month in my neighborhood, a child walking to school darted in front of a passing car and got hit. If she had been on a bus, she would not have been on the street.

If you're talking about the social dynamics of riding on a bus with lots of other people, why not try to teach your child how to deal positively with people from different backgrounds? If you're worried about violence, those things do make the news, but the incidents are relatively few and far between, especially when you factor in the number of school bus miles driven daily. Most school bus drivers are trained in how to deal with troublemakers, and they typically are dealt with swiftly and satisfactorily.

When I was in 8th grade, I had to ride a bus 5 miles into town, get off the bus at the high school, and ride another bus 30 miles to another town to attend junior high school. When I got to 9th grade, I was lucky enough to have to go only 15 miles on the second leg of the trip. I felt no ill effects from those days, other than the normal adolescent teasing, crushes, and angst experienced by most people that age. I learned to get my homework done on the bus, so I could have more time to play when I got home. If I had asked my mother to drive me to school, she would have laughed for a minute and then told me to get going. If every parent had decided that they were the only ones good enough to drive their precious little kids to school, the highways would have been crowded every morning, greatly increasing the chances of accidents and injury or death to those very children they were trying to protect.

I see nothing wrong with putting your child on a bus to school. It may even be good for them. If you want to avoid the drive, you could just homeschool.

School bus drivers are trained professionals??? Not around here, they aren't! Here are the qualifications in my state:

-Must be 18 years old.

-Must possess a valid NC driver’s license.

-Must have had a valid driver’s license for a minimum of two years.

-With 2-4 years total driving experience: no more than one ticket or at-fault accident during that period.

-With 5-9 years driving experience: no more that two tickets or two at-fault accident during that period.

-With 10 or more years experience: no more that two tickets and one at-fault accident or two at-fault accidents and one ticket during that time period.

-No convictions of DWI in the last 10 years.

-No convictions of reckless driving in the last 10 years.

-No conviction for passing a school bus in the process of making a passenger stop.

-No suspension of driving privileges in the last 10 years due to a moving violation (a suspension for failure to appear does not count).

-Any prospective driver who has had a license in another state within the last five years must provide a driving record from that state as well as possess a valid NC driver’s license.

-Take class and pass examinations administered by DMV and receive CDL with "S" and "P" endorsements.

I know this probably wouldn't happen now, but when I was young and riding a bus, my redneck bus driver had a bag of liquor wrapped in a paper bag that he drank WHILE DRIVING US! I know you guys probably won't believe that, but it's true. If we were loud or not sitting down, he would SLAM on the brakes and make those standing go flying forward! People smoked on the bus and he never said a word to them. And some poor kid was always being bullied.

Oh, and this just happened in my city not long ago: Kindergartener left on bus for hours

So THAT'S why I won't let my child ride the bus. If you want to call me a 'helicopter' parent, that's fine. I'm not overly concerned with labels. I just know that it's my responsibility as a parent to make sure my child safely gets to and from school. I will not trust anyone with that task as long as I'm able to do it.

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

And btw, Shannon, whether you believe them or not, you are going to answer to our Lord for rejecting His prophets, and many of His prophets will live in your lifetime, whether or not you choose to accept them as such.

And I could say something about you following false prophets, as that is what I believe, since you were so rude to say such a thing to me, but I won't.

Enjoy your life Ray, and I'll enjoy mine. This is why I don't have conversations with you, normally. You force me to say things here that I otherwise wouldn't say.

Shannon,

What I said to you was not a rude thing for me to say. I was simply giving you a fair warning concerning the fact that our Lord will be asking you why you rejected His prophets and apostles after you heard what they had to tell you. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Or in other words, I wasn't saying that you are a "bad person", or a "rude person", nor was I making any kind of judment against you to say you are going to "hell". I was simply letting you know that our Lord will be talking to you about your rejection of His prophets.

And btw, the fact that you don't want to hear this kind of stuff is irrelevant, in my mind. I feel that I must say these things to try to help you understand what you have done, and what you are doing, concerning the choices you have made and are continuing to make by rejecting our Lord's prophets. And now having said what I felt I needed to say, I now feel at peace knowing that I did what I could to help you and that I will not be held personally responsible for not doing more to try to help you see what I can see.

But go ahead and live your life like you feel and think you should, while I hope that someday you will come to know and understand more truth.

RAY SAID: I simply meant that if you give your child a ride, or anyone else in a ride, that is much better than having him or them ride a bus. And I made that a separate line item simply because I simply wanted to tell you that is one of the good things you are doing.

SHANTRESS SAID: Are you talking about my child riding a bus? He's in preschool, so my husband takes him when he goes to work at 10, then I pick him up after I get off work at 3. And when he starts elementary school, he will not ride the bus.

BIZ: What's wrong with having the kid ride the bus? Eh?

Nothing is inherently wrong with it, but since it is good for a parent to spend more time with their children, and do things with and for them, it is better for Shannon and other parents to give their children a ride instead of having someone else do it… whether that other person who does that "job" is a public employee or someone else who is paid for doing that.

Or in other words, not only are there “good” and “bad” things to do, or “right” and “wrong” things to do, but there are also “better” and “best” things to do in all the things that are “good”, and I think it’s better to do better and best things instead of thinking a “good” thing to do is simply “good enough”... which Shannon is actually doing, and I was complimenting her and her husband on that.

And btw, that "principle" applies to all kinds of things, including transportation issues.

<div class='quotemain'>

RAY SAID: I simply meant that if you give your child a ride, or anyone else in a ride, that is much better than having him or them ride a bus. And I made that a separate line item simply because I simply wanted to tell you that is one of the good things you are doing.

SHANTRESS SAID: Are you talking about my child riding a bus? He's in preschool, so my husband takes him when he goes to work at 10, then I pick him up after I get off work at 3. And when he starts elementary school, he will not ride the bus.

BIZ: What's wrong with having the kid ride the bus? Eh?

Maybe nothing, these days. But I rode the bus when I was young, and I don't want my kid to have to endure it. Also, I just don't trust anyone I don't know to be responsible for driving my child around. I know there are people who have no choice, but I think that if it's possible, you should personally take them to school.

I also won't allow my child to be a latch-key kid like I was (before AND after school). I'd rather cut back to 30 hours instead of 40 to make sure I could take him and pick him up.

BUT, if I was a single parent and didn't have a choice (like my mom), I would do the best I could do.

I agree with all that 100%... we should all do the "best" we can do.

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

Heh, well, I also feel and believe that all of us, including women, should be doing what our Lord and heavenly Father want us to do, not what some uf us, including women, feel we want and need.

Or in other words, which would you rather be and become, out of all the choices you have:

A wife and mother who devotes all of her life to home and family, without any other career.

OR

A wife and mother who devotes some of her life to home and family, while having another career.

Is there a right answer, here, Ray? Are you implying that God wants all women to stay home? Is there liberty in this area? In other words, is this choice over whether or not the wife is to work one that God allows the family to make, or has he preordained that women should stay at home unless starvation beckons?

Yes, there is a right answer here, because God has revealed His will to His servants the Prophets and Apostles of His Church concerning the fact that He wants all women to "stay at home", or take care of their home and family, except for those who are in situations where they actually “must” work to support their families… to provide the "necessities" of living.

And btw, His revelations apply not only to members of His Church but also of the entire world.

Ray: And on the flip side, our heavenly Father is not pleased, but not necessarily displeased, with your choice to work or have a career away from family and home instead of being a better mother and wife…

prisonchaplain: But, what if the time away from home working provides subsidiary income for the family and allows mother to get some mental stimulation and break--thus making her more capable of parenting when she is home? Maybe the Heavenly Father would be very pleased in such a circumstance?

If a woman's children are not living in her home, and all of her work for her home and family is done, then Yes, a woman has then fulfilled her obligations to the will of our Lord and is then free to do anything else she wants to do… whether she chooses to work for someone who will pay her with money or pay her in some other way.

And I, personally, believe there is more than enough work for a woman to do for her own home and family and for our Lord than for any other “employer”, and it is better to work for Him and be blessed by Him than to receive any amount of money from anybody.

[shanstress70]

I was simply letting you know that our Lord will be talking to you about your rejection of His prophets.

This is maddening. I cannot believe in 'prophets' just bc someone tells me to. I have just as much surety that your LDS prophet is a prophet, as I have that David Koresh was a prophet. That is fine if you want to believe such a thing, and I'm glad that you are so 'sure'. But I've been assured of the opposite. Do you see me preaching to you about your beliefs being wrong?

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

I was simply letting you know that our Lord will be talking to you about your rejection of His prophets.

This is maddening. I cannot believe in 'prophets' just bc someone tells me to. I have just as much surety that your LDS prophet is a prophet, as I have that David Koresh was a prophet. That is fine if you want to believe such a thing, and I'm glad that you are so 'sure'. But I've been assured of the opposite. Do you see me preaching to you about your beliefs being wrong?

You can "preach" to me about anything you want to preach to me about Shannon, and I will do the same for you, and whether or not you believe to be true what I believe to be true won't affect what is true in the least.

And the way to know what is really true is by actually receiving an assurance from God, not simply believing you know the truth, or "believing" you received an assurance from God.

And btw, if you think of responding to me again with the idea that you have also received an assurance from God, and that you are totally sure about that, then I guess we'll both have to wait until we talk to Him again on the day of judgment to see which one of us was actually deceived.

Or in other words, "knowing" that we have received an assurance from God is as close to knowing the truth as we can get, so if we both know we have received His assurance and we still disagree with each other, then the only one who can actually decide which one of us actually did receive an assurance from God is none other than God himself... which I suppose He would do in a more formal setting, like maybe on the day of judgment.

[shanstress70]

... the only one who can actually decide which one of us actually did receive an assurance from God is none other than God himself... which I suppose He would do in a more formal setting, as on the day of judgment.

Exactamundo, Ray! :)

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

... the only one who can actually decide which one of us actually did receive an assurance from God is none other than God himself... which I suppose He would do in a more formal setting, as on the day of judgment.

Exactamundo, Ray! :)

Heh, I'm totally fine with that and have been totally fine with that since before we ever "argued"... and I still believe we should share our personal beliefs with other people... especially about how to get Faith from God. :)