Fashion and the Gospel

[Argentina84]

In Alma 5:53 it goes: ”...can ye be puffed up in the pride of your hearts; yea, will ye persist in the wearing of costly apparel and setting your hearts upon the vain things of the world, upon your riches?” (bold added)

During these last months in which I have lived in Sweden I have learnt quite a lot about fashion and styling and I have been trying to improve my appearance in many ways, one of which is improving my clothing style; but skriptures like the one I have just quoted make me wonder if it´s correct to spend a little extra money on clothes and, basically, if it's correct to purchase brand or designer garments. I would like to know your opinion about this.

I am not a fashionista nor a shoppaholic (I don't even spend all my money on clothes and me and my hubby manage to keep a savings account for emergencies). But I like to buy quality and style and I must admit that I peep through fashion magazines to get updated with the trends I feel suit me and follow the Church standards.

I have reseached the Church literature and there is a lot about modesty regarding length, size, etc, but I could not find anything that spoke against buying ”more expensive” clothes, except for scriptures like this one, in which the wearing of ”costly” apparel is connected to pride and vanity. I do not feel I am better than anyone else if I have more expensive clothes. I do not expect people to envy me or flatter me because of my clothes. I only want to feel confortable and beautiful with what I am wearing.

I decided to purchase the few designer garments I have because:

1)I find that their quality is better- which will make them last longer and save money on the long run,

2)”more expensive” clothing is usually more modest than the more economical brands (the skirts are knee-lengthed, and the T-shirts run down to my hips, the jean waists cover my stomach, the blouses do not have gigantic cleavages, etc.

3)I don't have my mom -She used to sew all my Sunday clothes before I got married and moved to Sweden. I can't sew!

4)Better designs are somewhat ”timeless”, so I buy a shirt today and since it's good quality and design it will be fashionable for more than a season. (My style is pretty classic and I'd like to purchase good quality wardrobe basics that never get outdated)

Looking forward to reading your comments :)

Argentina84

[Dravin]

I don't think there is a prohibition against buying better quality items of clothing, which generally speaking, are more expensive. I think as long as you don't set your heart upon such things, or wear them for the purpose of making yourself above the plebs, one is not in condemnation of the scripture.

I all but guarantee that the Apostles wear more expensive slacks than I for some of the reasons you mentioned. Quality and looking better (but not flash look at how expensive the clothes I can afford 'better').

[Backroads]

There is nothing wrong with wanting to look good and feel good about yourself.

There is nothing wrong with wanting good quality clothing.

Heck, there is nothing wrong with people who have been blessed financially to dress with a little more expense. I think of a conversation from Fever Pitch: "You guys are really that rich?" "Yeah." "Then why don't you dress better?"

I think it's a moderation thing. You mentioned fashionistas and shopaholics, which I think is going over the moderation thing. Wanting to keep up with the trends and look presentable and dare I say even nice is not a bad thing at all.

[Argentina84]

Dravin: I had never thought of the apostles, but I look at the women on the Ensign pictures and they all dress nicely! Thanks for commenting.

Backroads: Thank you so much for your contribution,too! My family is not well-off but since I also work I am able to spend some money on myself every month (that keeps me motivated at work lol) :)

Argentina84

[RipplecutBuddha]

The only hard guide I can think of is the modesty issue, which I will leave at that...it's been done beyond well done at this point.

As for the fashion itself, so long as you keep a level head about it and avoid fashion for the sake of fashion alone, you'll be fine.

We are in the world, and we're here for a reason. As long as we don't become 'of' the world, whatever styles suit you personally and meet the modesty standards should be just fine.

[Backroads]

Dravin: I had never thought of the apostles, but I look at the women on the Ensign pictures and they all dress nicely! Thanks for commenting.

Backroads: Thank you so much for your contribution,too! My family is not well-off but since I also work I am able to spend some money on myself every month (that keeps me motivated at work lol) :)

Argentina84

The Ensign women do look nice, though a friend's family modeled for it and they really aren't all that well-off; even so, they looked great.

As for work... Dress for Success! Don't they always recommend to have a designer suit/dress or something for job interviews? And if you can dazzle people at work...

If you can spend money on yourself, why not clothes? I blow extra money on books, no one seems to think that is wrong.

Sounds like you're handling things just fine.

[prophetofdoom]

I think it is a matter of intentions. We all know people that obsess about fashion too much... and that is when it can lead to vanity. Quality is another issue though.. sometimes you have to spend a little more money to buy something that is made with quality. If you find yourself rolling your eyes at people you consider to be "unfashionable" like the fashion police.. that is pride.

So it is all about your attitude towards things.

[mnn727]

Whats your intention?

are you buyinmg it so you can show off?

or are you buying it because its better quality and will presumably last longer?

[Backroads]

Whats your intention?

are you buyinmg it so you can show off?

or are you buying it because its better quality and will presumably last longer?

There is a difference between "showing off" and "wanting to look good".

Why else are there so many speaches aimed at Young Women and even Relief Society members on the importance of personal appearance?

[slamjet]

There is a difference between "showing off" and "wanting to look good".

Why else are there so many speaches aimed at Young Women and even Relief Society members on the importance of personal appearance?

I dunno about YW of RS, but in the YM when I was growing up, we were told to not look like slobs. Either that's a comment about being frugal in our wardrobe, or a level of hoped for expectation when I was young.

[Backroads]

I dunno about YW of RS, but in the YM when I was growing up, we were told to not look like slobs. Either that's a comment about being frugal in our wardrobe, or a level of hoped for expectation when I was young.

And they shouldn't.

I just remember all these talks and even a Saturday event during singles where we were told that the reason some of us weren't getting dates is because we dressed and looked THAT unattractively. Apparently the Church even has some women going to the sisters in the mission field to show them how to look good.

[Guest]

Note: Attractiveness, cleanliness, and grooming, and even fashionable are not synonymous to Costly.

As far as the scripture goes, it addresses Pride and not necessarily being fashionable.

Personally: I don't mind paying good money for quality clothing but I won't break the bank for it. Not because I want to look better than the neighbor, but because my body is a temple and I like to treat it with some importance. But, if spending more money on clothing prevents me from... say, paying tithing, or having food storage... then that's bad too.

Edited February 7, 2011 by anatess

[Argentina84]

anatess I like your point. Our body is a temple and therefore it's important to take care of it and make an effort to look good. LDS temples are furnished with the best available and that does not make them look costly, but modest and "beautiful". I think of them when I shop for clothes.

I just wanted to see if my thoughts were on the right track. Thank you so much for all your insights!

[Argentina84]

And they shouldn't.

I just remember all these talks and even a Saturday event during singles where we were told that the reason some of us weren't getting dates is because we dressed and looked THAT unattractively.

We also had those talks at Institute in Argentina. :)

I know that beeing too obsessed with your appearance or not being concerned about it at all is bad. I mean ALL EXTREMES ARE BAD. And pride is not correct but I am not proud (at least not about that and I don't go aroung trying to look better than others. I only want to look MY best as far as it's possible.

[Backroads]

Note: Attractiveness, cleanliness, and grooming, and even fashionable are not synonymous to Costly.

As far as the scripture goes, it addresses Pride and not necessarily being fashionable.

Personally: I don't mind paying good money for quality clothing but I won't break the bank for it. Not because I want to look better than the neighbor, but because my body is a temple and I like to treat it with some importance. But, if spending more money on clothing prevents me from... say, paying tithing, or having food storage... then that's bad too.

I'm a naturally cheap person, and I will probably never buy a designer brand. But I do like looking nice and I do have my personal style. I think it's okay to match that.

I like what you say about the body being a temple. It's true, it should be beautiful.

When I was teaching, I had a dress I wore that my students actually would often request me to wear. It was cute, modest, professional, and had polka-dots that drives 7-year old girls crazy.

[bert10]

Read what GOD said by way of the haughty daughters of Zion. It is interesting that many things that is listed has come back. One can use it as a dress code. Isaiah chapter 3.

Costly apparel does not only stroke the Ego [Pride] it is also grinding the nose of those who are poor. We have to be careful what we do and really question our motives. And if our motives are just and still we see that we are grinding the nose of the poor...then we cease to do it.

Costly Apparel...there is a big difference between buying off the rack and buying things that cost many times what regular people wear. I know I can get a good suit for less than $ 400.00 that would include shoes and shirt and tie.

I hope this helps. However, we should not judge the liberty of oters by our own conscience. We should let the Spirit do the judging concerning individual cases.

bert10

In Alma 5:53 it goes: ”...can ye be puffed up in the pride of your hearts; yea, will ye persist in the wearing of costly apparel and setting your hearts upon the vain things of the world, upon your riches?” (bold added)

During these last months in which I have lived in Sweden I have learnt quite a lot about fashion and styling and I have been trying to improve my appearance in many ways, one of which is improving my clothing style; but skriptures like the one I have just quoted make me wonder if it´s correct to spend a little extra money on clothes and, basically, if it's correct to purchase brand or designer garments. I would like to know your opinion about this.

I am not a fashionista nor a shoppaholic (I don't even spend all my money on clothes and me and my hubby manage to keep a savings account for emergencies). But I like to buy quality and style and I must admit that I peep through fashion magazines to get updated with the trends I feel suit me and follow the Church standards.

I have reseached the Church literature and there is a lot about modesty regarding length, size, etc, but I could not find anything that spoke against buying ”more expensive” clothes, except for scriptures like this one, in which the wearing of ”costly” apparel is connected to pride and vanity. I do not feel I am better than anyone else if I have more expensive clothes. I do not expect people to envy me or flatter me because of my clothes. I only want to feel confortable and beautiful with what I am wearing.

I decided to purchase the few designer garments I have because:

1)I find that their quality is better- which will make them last longer and save money on the long run,

2)”more expensive” clothing is usually more modest than the more economical brands (the skirts are knee-lengthed, and the T-shirts run down to my hips, the jean waists cover my stomach, the blouses do not have gigantic cleavages, etc.

3)I don't have my mom -She used to sew all my Sunday clothes before I got married and moved to Sweden. I can't sew!

4)Better designs are somewhat ”timeless”, so I buy a shirt today and since it's good quality and design it will be fashionable for more than a season. (My style is pretty classic and I'd like to purchase good quality wardrobe basics that never get outdated)

Looking forward to reading your comments :)

Argentina84

Edited February 8, 2011 by bert10

[Guest]

Read what GOD said by way of the haughty daughters of Zion. It is interesting that many things that is listed has come back. One can use it as a dress code. Isaiah chapter 3.

Costly apparel does not only stroke the Ego [Pride] it is also grinding the nose of those who are poor. We have to be careful what we do and really question our motives. And if our motives are just and still we see that we are grinding the nose of the poor...then we cease to do it.

Costly Apparel...there is a big difference between buying off the rack and buying things that cost many times what regular people wear. I know I can get a good suit for less than $ 400.00 that would include shoes and shirt and tie.

I hope this helps. However, we should not judge the liberty of oters by our own conscience. We should let the Spirit do the judging concerning individual cases.

bert10

Interesting interpretation of the gospel there, Bert. Let me ask you... do you think the poor (or even the rich) can tell the difference between my Jimmy Choo shoes I bought for $400 and my Payless shoes I bought for $12? I highly doubt it.

So, if they can't tell the difference, then why did I buy $400 shoes? Because Jimmy Choo uses the kind of leather that doesn't break and fray after 2 days of chasing down 2 boys under 10 years of age - and it was on sale from $1200 so I can finally afford it.

Oh and yeah - I was trying to grind the shoes down the poor's nose... envious fools that they are.

*Note: I don't have Jimmy Choo shoes. That was just an example.

[bert10]

I don't think I would notice what shoes you are wearing. God has blessed me of being oblivious of things like that unless I make it a point for study or to see where the congregation stands.

The inner man is judged by GOD because GOD knows the motive. Just because a man buys 400.00 shoes, does not means he will go out and buy a 2000.00 suit. IF he is a vain man...he will care what people think and go out and buy a suit to match his shoes.

Also we can justify by logic any wickedness, we all know the stories of the Nephites, in their manners concerning clothes and wealth and which one of them did not justify themselves of their behaviour before GOD?

We are on a slippery slope...Sometimes just check out what people uses as vehicles and how they dress and what jewels they wear. At church we can practically see who are doctors, CEOs, dentists, lawyers from the blue collars and then on to the poor by the type of clothes the families wear. Funny things, the rich ones...they do not seem to sit in the back.

I wear simple and plain clothes. I buy of the rack even if I can afford a little better. Because of my example, I would hope that no one in my family worry about expensive clothes for themselves, nor cares too much what others are wearing.

I do not point the finger at any individual but am speaking generally.

bert10

Edited February 8, 2011 by bert10

[Guest]

We are on a slippery slope...Sometimes just check out what people uses as vehicles and how they dress and what jewels they wear. At church we can practically see who are doctors, CEOs, dentists, lawyers from the blue collars and then on to the poor by the type of clothes the families wear. Funny things, the rich ones...they do not seem to sit in the back.

We have a couple millionaire families in our ward. We have not-quite-millionaires-but-still-well-off families in our ward too. We have the middle of middle class and we have the farmers, the ordinary Navy/Marines people, and the struggling students and the out-of-work-about-to-lose-their-house families too.

I will give you a thousand dollars if not more - if you can tell which one is which when you come visit our ward.

I wear simple and plain clothes. I buy of the rack even if I can afford a little better. Because of my example, I would hope that no one in my family worry about expensive clothes for themselves, nor cares too much what others are wearing.

I do not point the finger at any individual but am speaking generally.

bert10

Yet your judgementalism shines through. Bright and clear. Even painting the rich like greedy, prideful monsters. Envy is such a sneaky little devil, isn't he?

[bert10]

Good for your ward. I guess the millionaires there don't drive to church in luxury cars and do not have big houses and large estates. I dig that. They would be nice people to know and hang out with.

I do not think we have any in our ward. I also live in a ward where most are farmers. The vast majority do not overdress or show off and they are easy to speak to. Stake is something else though.

We are to judge by fruits. And this is how it works...the money spent in luxuries is money spent on pride which is our Ego and it is money that should have been used to help the poor. When we go into excesses...we rob the poor..because the wealth does not belong to us...it is still the Lord. That is why Jesus said for the rich for them it is hard to enter into the kingdom. We can identify what is Luxuries and distinguish between wants and needs. And for those who can't then there is no sin. We do not judge the individual. But if the church were perfect then One Mighty and Strong would not need to come and set the Church in order and give the children their inheritance.

bert10

We have a couple millionaire families in our ward. We have not-quite-millionaires-but-still-well-off families in our ward too. We have the middle of middle class and we have the farmers, the ordinary Navy/Marines people, and the struggling students and the out-of-work-about-to-lose-their-house families too.

I will give you a thousand dollars if not more - if you can tell which one is which when you come visit our ward.

Yet your judgementalism shines through. Bright and clear. Even painting the rich like greedy, prideful monsters. Envy is such a sneaky little devil, isn't he?

Edited February 9, 2011 by bert10

[Argentina84]

But if the church were perfect then One Mighty and Strong would not need to come and set the Church in order and give the children their inheritance. bert10

Well, if the members of the Church (The Church IS perfect) were perfect we would all be able to have nice houses, nice cars, - and, back to the topic of this thread- the clothes that we like.

[Backroads]

Good for your ward. I guess the millionaires there don't drive to church in luxury cars and do not have big houses and large estates. I dig that. They would be nice people to know and hang out with.

I do not think we have any in our ward. I also live in a ward where most are farmers. The vast majority do not overdress or show off and they are easy to speak to. Stake is something else though.

We are to judge by fruits. And this is how it works...the money spent in luxuries is money spent on pride which is our Ego and it is money that should have been used to help the poor. When we go into excesses...we rob the poor..because the wealth does not belong to us...it is still the Lord. That is why Jesus said for the rich for them it is hard to enter into the kingdom. We can identify what is Luxuries and distinguish between wants and needs. And for those who can't then there is no sin. We do not judge the individual. But if the church were perfect then One Mighty and Strong would not need to come and set the Church in order and give the children their inheritance.

bert10

If I were to truly differentiate between wants and needs, I'd be living in a tent. I don't need a house. We need very few things.

However, there would a be a pride issue if I were living in a tent to show the world how aware I was of wants and needs.

I totally get what you're saying. Money should not be used to feed our ego or pride.

However, if you have been blessed financially, what is wrong with using it as long as you use it in gratitude and humility? People work hard, they make money, what's wrong with using it?

Now I think there is only so much money a person really needs, only so big a house someone needs, etc., etc. But a few luxuries in the right spirit are not wrong. My uncle is a multi-millionaire. He had a big house when most of his kids were at home (he has 11 kids). He's now down to one kid at home, two off at BYU, and therefore moved to a smaller house. He has a passion for music, so he bought a beautiful grand piano. Most of the family plays. He loves the outdoors, so he bought a cabin. He invests in things that make himself and his family happy.

[Guest]

Good for your ward. I guess the millionaires there don't drive to church in luxury cars and do not have big houses and large estates. I dig that. They would be nice people to know and hang out with.

Wow... just wow. So you're saying that if a person was able to afford luxury cars and big houses and large estates that they wouldn't be nice people to know and hang out with?

I do not think we have any in our ward. I also live in a ward where most are farmers. The vast majority do not overdress or show off and they are easy to speak to. Stake is something else though.

We are to judge by fruits. And this is how it works...the money spent in luxuries is money spent on pride which is our Ego and it is money that should have been used to help the poor. When we go into excesses...we rob the poor..because the wealth does not belong to us...it is still the Lord. That is why Jesus said for the rich for them it is hard to enter into the kingdom. We can identify what is Luxuries and distinguish between wants and needs. And for those who can't then there is no sin. We do not judge the individual. But if the church were perfect then One Mighty and Strong would not need to come and set the Church in order and give the children their inheritance.

bert10

And herein lies the problem. You are poor and do not know a rich person. Therefore, you apply your narrow worldview with your un-Christlike prejudice and paint all rich people who spends money on luxury cars as Prideful Egotistic snits.

You know Tim Tebow right? Multi-millionaire. Complete with luxury car and giant home - two of them even. You know where he spends his summers? In the Philippines - elbow deep in bloody guts giving his time and energy freely assisting in surgeries at this remote village in Luzon. A village that can barely afford running water.

So, because you are bert, you would say - then Tim Tebow should have spent the money he put on a luxury car, to buy all these people better plumbing! Uh no. Because, if he would have just done that, then the village would be there next summer with palms up waiting for the next hand-out. There are times when you allow a village to work out its own problems to strengthen themselves. And there are times when you go in there and get up to the elbows in blood and guts to help them out.

But, because you are bert, and you are the king of envy and sweeping prejudice, you look at the luxury car and the giant house and dismiss Tim Tebow for the prideful RICH monster that he is.

SHAME ON YOU.

[slamjet]

I do believe that the Lord would want us to have all the comforts of life. When the Nephites were righteous, they were blessed abundantly; money, riches, gold, fine garments. It wasn't until they denied from where these riches came from and shut out the poor and needy that they were chastised and disciplined (and quite harshly at times). So yes, there's nothing wrong with being rich. There's nothing wrong with having nice (and expensive) clothing. Just as long as we understand and keep in mind where it all came from and to not be wisely redescent to share with those less fortunate.

[Argentina84]

Just found this quote by President Monson:

"My dear sisters, each of you is unique. You are different from each other in many ways. There are those of you who are married. Some of you stay at home with your children, while others of you work outside your homes. Some of you are empty nesters. There are those of you who are married but do not have children. There are those who are divorced, those who are widowed. Many of you are single women. Some of you have college degrees; some of you do not. There are those who can afford the latest fashions and those who are lucky to have one appropriate Sunday outfit.[/b] Such differences are almost endless. Do these differences tempt us to judge one another?"

"Charity Never Faileth", General Relief Society Meeting October 2010 Bold added.