Literal sense or symbolic sense of the scriptures

[Traveler]

I am not sure to undestand that you mean.

My post wanted to point out that there is more in the scripture than the literal sense.

The real sense is hidden. And it is spiritualy than we can reach this sense. As it is written :

1 Corinthiens 2:14 *But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 *But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

So I would like to draw attention to the fact that stay only in the litteral is an error.

Why the word is Hidden?

Of course I have my idea.

I think it is to help us to humiliate ourself and to make effort to know our god.

If we are "poor" and reconize we are poor, we can ask for the lord help. If we are rich (or we believe we are), not :

Proverbes 28:11 *¶The rich man is wise in his own conceit; but the poor that hath understanding searcheth him out.

Apocalypse 3:17 *Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

And in this scriptures, the words "miserable", "poor", "blind", "naked", are they to be understood litteraly ? or do they represent symbolicly a state of a soul?

Of course they are symbolic.

Friendly yours,

To answer your question we can look at Isaiah talking before king Ahaz. The Hebrew is “im lo ta aminu ki lo tea menu”. The translation does not come out right until one realizes that Isaiah is using a play on words and is being sarcastic. In essence Isaiah is saying - “If you do not believe me (what I am telling you) it is because you are not loyal to G-d”.

Anciently there were punishments for individuals living within a kingdom that were not loyal to the king. We see this in the punishment given to Sampson when his eyes were gouged and burned - making him blind. This was a very common practice for subversive elements. As punishment blindness and deathness (destroying ears) was very common. Thus Jesus used this concept in saying - those that have eyes to see and ears to hear. This has no meaning without spiritual worthiness. So it is that Jesus taught spiritual worthiness as necessary to understand doctrine. So someone that does not understand the necessity of “Baptism” - claiming to be inspired by the Holy Ghost - thus baptized by the Holy Ghost but teaching spiritual lies because they are not spiritually in tune and worthy having not accepted baptism.

So it is that the scriptures are like the liahona. Without spiritual worthiness - it just will not work. Without the spirit one cannot teach - cannot even learn. This is also very evident in the great debate concerning works verses grace. Unless a person is spiritually worthy they cannot understand the scriptures concerning the grace of G-d - thus it does not matter which side of the issue the spiritual unworthy argue - they are wrong.

The Traveler

[imanuelga]

Our test is to see what our soul delights in more, things that are carnal or things that are spiritual. If we don't actively seek out spiritual passions the default is to become carnal in nature. So, we are constantly fighting that battle to not slip into that carnal state. Those words remind us of that constant battle, to endure to the end.

So you think that because we keep the commandements we are spiritual (so we can understand the scriptures ) and when we do not, we are not?

Do you really believe this is so ?

I can understand it because I did too!

Well, if this was true nobody could undestand the scriptures because nobody keep the commandements.... (unless myself of course ) But I will stop here because I can hear coming soon the horses of the batle between grace and works... And I don't want it ! I beat a retreat cowardly ! I reconized I am not armed.

Can I propose you some scriptures this time according to my very figting temperament

Deutéronome 20:13 *And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:

14 *But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.

Can you undestand what it is spiritualy expressed here?

Ps :

I have to say to be honest that, even if I did believe for a long time that the scriptures have a spiritual sense that the literal just represent, but I am not the first one ! And particulary one of whom now I am spoiling him shamelessly.

[imanuelga]

[ We see this in the punishment given to Sampson when his eyes were gouged and burned - making him blind. This was a very common practice for subversive elements. As punishment blindness and deathness (destroying ears) was very common. Thus Jesus used this concept in saying - those that have eyes to see and ears to hear. This has no meaning without spiritual worthiness. (...)

Without spiritual worthiness - it just will not work. Without the spirit one cannot teach - cannot even learn. This is also very evident in the great debate concerning works verses grace. Unless a person is spiritually worthy they cannot understand the scriptures concerning the grace of G-d - thus it does not matter which side of the issue the spiritual unworthy argue - they are wrong.

The Traveler

Well I would prefer to avoid any discussion about "grace against works" cowerdly but not on Samson !!

And after all, I think you are right and the church too when it's taught that we will not be saved only because our believe in Christ.

Believing that we are saved only because of what we believe (even if it is in christ) and that we can do what we want regardless if it is good or bad is a blasphem !

But also believing we are doing the good by keep the commandement is being shortsighted (my opinion).

The good is to love our eavenly father with all our hart, mind and strength ! And our neighbours as ourself !

But how to love? Who know to love? If not the lord himself?

As it is written in the book of mormon, moroni 7:10-26 :

A bad man can't do that is good. And It is not only the work that count but the hart...

Some may also say: it is by the doing that we will become...

I think rather that the commandement are the external expression of what is interior, but what we do (the external) have also a consequense in our interior as you wrote.

We are not naturally spiritual (Mosiah 3:19)! It's God who changes us to became spiritual.

Any way, I'd rather talk about samson !! :-) because it is more the theme of this post because 'I think' Samson is misunderstood because the sense is taken only litteraly.

Friendly yours,

[imanuelga]

To answer your question we can look at Isaiah talking before king Ahaz. The Hebrew is “im lo ta aminu ki lo tea menu”. The translation does not come out right until one realizes that Isaiah is using a play on words and is being sarcastic. In essence Isaiah is saying - “If you do not believe me (what I am telling you) it is because you are not loyal to G-d”.

Thus Jesus used this concept in saying - those that have eyes to see and ears to hear. This has no meaning without spiritual worthiness.

The Traveler

Thank you for this exemple of Isiah and king Ahaz : hat Isaiah is using a play on words and is being sarcastic. In essence Isaiah is saying - “If you do not believe me (what I am telling you) it is because you are not loyal to God”

This symbol with eyes is often used in the scripture even before Christ.

For exemple :

1 Samuël 14:27 But Jonathan heard not when his father charged the people with the oath: wherefore he put forth the end of the rod that was in his hand, and dipped it in an honeycomb, and put his hand to his mouth; and his eyes were enlightened.

Psaumes 69:3 I am weary of my crying: my throat is dried: mine eyes fail while I wait for my God.

Psaumes 69:23 Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.

The first son of Jacob is Ruben (he sees), and the second Simeon(he hears)

It is a constant in scriptures.

Edited February 28, 2011 by imanuelga

[Guest DeborahC]

I used to take the scriptures as "myth" or "stories," but as I grow older and acquire more life experience I realize that many of them may be quite literal!

[Matthew0059]

If you search the scriptures utilizing the Gift of the Holy Ghost which is in you, you will know which scriptures are to be understood literally and which are to be understood spiritually, and you will learn that every literal event from the scriptures also have deeply power symbolic meaning to us.

Remember that to GOD, all things are spiritual (D&C 29:34)- thus, if enlightened by the spirit of GOD, we can see spiritual lessons in every account in the scriptures, because "all things typify CHRIST" (2 Nephi 11:4).

[Seminarysnoozer]

So you think that because we keep the commandements we are spiritual (so we can understand the scriptures ) and when we do not, we are not?

Do you really believe this is so ?

I can understand it because I did too!

Well, if this was true nobody could undestand the scriptures because nobody keep the commandements.... (unless myself of course ) But I will stop here because I can hear coming soon the horses of the batle between grace and works... And I don't want it ! I beat a retreat cowardly ! I reconized I am not armed.

I realize you are from France so you might use different words ... I think I would use the words 'spiritually minded' and 'carnally minded' as opposed to spiritual versus literal. That might be more of what you are getting at, I am not sure.

Literal facts can and are spiritual as well. The difference may be how one uses that information and at what level one takes that in. We are all of course, "spiritual" as we are all spiritual beings as well as being carnal.

Most people though have their spiritual self well hidden under the carnal. This is not a black and white issue, we are all, always to some degree carnally minded and to some degree spiritually minded. If I or anybody was 100% spiritually minded they probably wouldn't need to be here right now. Like Daniel, one might learn secular facts through spiritual learning. It is possible to have direct spiritual learning without involving the 'mind' or intellectual reasoning.

There are times when the scriptures may appeal to the carnal self a little more than the spiritual. The word of wisdom may be such as example on the surface. What we take with us though into the next life are those spiritual gains. So it makes sense to take the most value from the scriptures at a spiritual level and through spiritual means, the Holy Ghost.

[imanuelga]

I think I would use the words 'spiritually minded' and 'carnally minded' as opposed to spiritual versus literal.

Hello,

not exactly. I think (now) it is not enough to thing of a the spiritual state of a man using 'spiritual' an 'carnal'. There is in man 2 pôles : his rational, and his will.

may be some time his will is well oriented but his rational is in error. In the church, this is a little mentionned in D&C when it is spoken of those who search for the true but don't know where to find it.

To produce Good, the rational and the will of a person must be in the truth and in the Good.

So It can be said of this person :"He is spiritual".

Concerning the scriptures, of course we can find good in the litteral : for example when Abraham leaved his contry to obey God, or when he advocated for residents of Sodom and Gomorre.

So in the litteral sense there is Good too.

But I believe, the most important of the teaching is on the symbolic sense (that one called the internal)

If we stay on the litteral, we miss the essential and we will not be able to be in the good and enjoy of it.

For exemple in the scripture of Deutéronome 20:13 *And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:

14 *But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.

It is about the conquest of the promise land (our promised land...) and it is intersted that it is the lord who delivered it into us but still we have to conquer it. In this land (ourself), there is people. Some are male other female, some are from the rational(male) and here represent the falsities, and other from the will(female), here the good.

So it seems to me that this scripture means that we have to fight with the 'sword' (of the truth) against the falsities but preserve the good of the will.

So that we can enjoy etc...

So it is also the error we have to fight against and not person.

This is not a black and white issue, we are all, always to some degree carnally minded and to some degree spiritually minded.

Our intellect and our will (male and female) must married and progress together.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Hello,

not exactly. I think (now) it is not enough to thing of a the spiritual state of a man using 'spiritual' an 'carnal'. There is in man 2 pôles : his rational, and his will.

may be some time his will is well oriented but his rational is in error. In the church, this is a little mentionned in D&C when it is spoken of those who search for the true but don't know where to find it.

To produce Good, the rational and the will of a person must be in the truth and in the Good.

So It can be said of this person :"He is spiritual".

Concerning the scriptures, of course we can find good in the litteral : for example when Abraham leaved his contry to obey God, or when he advocated for residents of Sodom and Gomorre.

So in the litteral sense there is Good too.

But I believe, the most important of the teaching is on the symbolic sense (that one called the internal)

If we stay on the litteral, we miss the essential and we will not be able to be in the good and enjoy of it.

For exemple in the scripture of Deutéronome 20:13 *And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:

14 *But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.

It is about the conquest of the promise land (our promised land...) and it is intersted that it is the lord who delivered it into us but still we have to conquer it. In this land (ourself), there is people. Some are male other female, some are from the rational(male) and here represent the falsities, and other from the will(female), here the good.

So it seems to me that this scripture means that we have to fight with the 'sword' (of the truth) against the falsities but preserve the good of the will.

So that we can enjoy etc...

So it is also the error we have to fight against and not person.

Our intellect and our will (male and female) must married and progress together.

Those are interesting theories but they do not come from the gospel of Jesus Christ that I know. I think Brigham Young and Elder Bednar and Elder Widtsoe (who had a biochemistry degree from Harvard as well) explain those two poles a little more clearly;

“The spirit is pure, and under the special control and influence of the Lord, but the body is of the earth, and is subject to the power of the Devil, and is under the mighty influence of that fallen nature that is of the earth. If the spirit yields to the body, the Devil then has power to overcome the body and spirit of that man, and he loses both.

“Recollect, brethren and sisters, every one of you, that when evil is suggested to you, when it arises in your hearts, it is through the temporal organization. When you are tempted, buffeted, and step out of the way inadvertently; when you are overtaken in a fault, or commit an overt act unthinkingly; when you are full of evil passion, and wish to yield to it, then stop and let the spirit, which God has put into your tabernacles, take the lead. If you do that, I will promise that you will overcome all evil, and obtain eternal lives. But many, very many, let the spirit yield to the body, and are overcome and destroyed” (Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe [1941], 70).

Edited February 26, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer

[HiJolly]

Hello,

not exactly. I think (now) it is not enough to thing of a the spiritual state of a man using 'spiritual' an 'carnal'. There is in man 2 pôles : his rational, and his will.

Note: bolded words are Hebrew

Or said another way, the intellect or reasoning mind is Hod (Splendor - the Power), and the Will or the heart/emotional mind is Netzach (Victory - the Glory)

Our intellect and our will (male and female) must married and progress together.

The rational, reasoning mind is SEVERE, whilst the emotional Will is GIVING. These are on the same level of experience in the manifest universe, yet at those two opposite poles of expression.

We obtain our best results in life when we moderate both into a 'meet in the middle' unified approach, where the two extremes are mediated by Beauty or Tiphareth(the atoning principle) into a functioning whole.

In purely physiological terms, these more or less equate to the left-brain (reason: a serial processor) and the right-brain (emotion: a parallel processor). When we unify the two, we are at our very most capable in terms of the experience of life. Activities such as music, juggling (and more) require the active involvement of both sides of the brain, building connections that assist our mental functions altogether. Yay!

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

As for the title of this thread Literal sense or symbolic sense of the scriptures , the Jewish mystics understand that there are (generally) 4 levels of meaning in the scriptures. The surface or literal level is Pshat and is not very useful to the soul. One must dig deeper to understand the author's real message. Google it. PARDES -- the four forms of Biblical exposition!

HiJolly

[imanuelga]

Those are interesting theories but they do not come from the gospel of Jesus Christ that I know. I think Brigham Young and Elder Bednar and Elder Widtsoe (who had a biochemistry degree from Harvard as well) explain those two poles a little more clearly

The rational pole (male) and the other pole will (female) - the truth and the good if positive, the falsities and the bad if negative - are not similar with the spirit and the body.

So it is why in others scriptures, the hebrews had to kill all ! Even the suns and daugthers..

Deutéronome 20:16 *But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

17 *But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

18 *That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.

Well I hope I express correctly the idea of Emmanuel Swedenborg (1688-1772)

Friendly,

[Traveler]

Well I would prefer to avoid any discussion about "grace against works" cowerdly but not on Samson !!

And after all, I think you are right and the church too when it's taught that we will not be saved only because our believe in Christ.

Believing that we are saved only because of what we believe (even if it is in christ) and that we can do what we want regardless if it is good or bad is a blasphem !

But also believing we are doing the good by keep the commandement is being shortsighted (my opinion).

The good is to love our eavenly father with all our hart, mind and strength ! And our neighbours as ourself !

But how to love? Who know to love? If not the lord himself?

As it is written in the book of mormon, moroni 7:10-26 :

A bad man can't do that is good. And It is not only the work that count but the hart...

Some may also say: it is by the doing that we will become...

I think rather that the commandement are the external expression of what is interior, but what we do (the external) have also a consequense in our interior as you wrote.

We are not naturally spiritual (Mosiah 3:19)! It's God who changes us to became spiritual.

Any way, I'd rather talk about samson !! :-) because it is more the theme of this post because 'I think' Samson is misunderstood because the sense is taken only litteraly.

Friendly yours,

If we understand the scriptures spiritually then we understand that the epoch of Sampson is not just a story of a prophet long ago but a story of our struggles with the powers given us from on high against the powers and influences of the world. (See Eccl 1:9)

The Traveler

[bert10]

It is pretty clear It is written .. The letter killeth. And the Spirit is life.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Romans 7:6 - But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Healing is a work that can be done on any other day of the week. And the letter in Jesus day said that Jesus was guilty of breaking the Sabbath. Today we all know that it is okay to heal on the Sabbath even though it is a work that can be done on any other day of the week.

We are taught in the Book of Moses and in Galatians....that We are Justified by the Spirit of the Lord.

We learn by the Spirit and receive the testimony of it by the Spirit, and we justified in our doings if we led by the Spirit of the Lord (Moses)

does that answer your question?

bert10

Hello all,

Should the scriptures be read litteraly or symbolically ?

Il both, the literal sense is it always agree with the symbolic one ?

You are free to give your opinion, but be carefull... May be, my conclusions are like a sharp sword...

[imanuelga]

If we understand the scriptures spiritually then we understand that the epoch of Sampson is not just a story of a prophet long ago but a story of our struggles with the powers given us from on high against the powers and influences of the world. (See Eccl 1:9)

Hello,

Who is Samson for you ?

[Seminarysnoozer]

The rational pole (male) and the other pole will (female) - the truth and the good if positive, the falsities and the bad if negative - are not similar with the spirit and the body.

So it is why in others scriptures, the hebrews had to kill all ! Even the suns and daugthers..

Deutéronome 20:16 *But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

17 *But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

18 *That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.

Well I hope I express correctly the idea of Emmanuel Swedenborg (1688-1772)

Friendly,

You are quoting Swedenborg over Brigham Young and Elder Widtsoe? Swedenborg is the guy who believed that there is no Heavenly Father or Holy Ghost, just Jesus and that the "second coming of Christ" already occurred when he was visited by the "inner, spiritual sense of the Word" himself. He also believed the final judgment has already taken place in 1757. Since Swedenborg is male according to his own theories then, his views are purely rational? and not spiritual, especially as he was never married? Makes him come across as a bitter bachelor.

Again, interesting theories, but fortunately we have modern revelation.

[imanuelga]

Hello,

You are quoting Swedenborg over Brigham Young and Elder Widtsoe?

Yes I do :).

Swedenborg is the guy who believed that there is no Heavenly Father or Holy Ghost, just Jesus

Well, I am not reading him for enough time, to know exactly what he believes (It's hard to understand !!), but this resum is not exact : He believe it is the same persone but not the same function.

He also believed the final judgment has already taken place in 1757.

I am not sure of what he said in this so i will prefer defer my answer.

Since Swedenborg is male according to his own theories then, his views are purely rational?

This must be wrong, because the good and the intellect must be present in every one.

I think it's represents our believes that is different of our charitys. The battle in scriptures, represents the battle of the lord and within ourselfs to become what he called "regenerated"(other would say born again... Saints...). I like this way of interpret the scriptures.

When I said that in some scriptures as I quoted, Its is written to kill the males, that means in was about the truth. (It is intresting if you think of pharaon who want's to kill the males of Israel but keep whe female alives -Egypt represent the Science-)

especially as he was never married

It must have been a enormous dram for him because I always explain that this was the most marvelous thing. He could have married but he refused because she didn't love him (the father wanted her to marry him).

In those days, this tell much of his personality.

Makes him come across as a bitter bachelor

He had never been known as a bitter man as far as I read but much Honest and honored. The trials of live aren't they to make us better persons?

Again, interesting theories, but fortunately we have modern revelation.

To say what I think, I don't know if every think he said was true, but I think he interprets the scriptures with much respect and profound view as anyone.

This is an adress where a member of the church compare Swedenborg doctrine and Joseph Smith. There is a lot of in common :

Article

I have been a member for 20 years, because I found teaching that were near what I thought (I did serve a mission), but If I had known Swedenborg before, It is to Him that I would have turn me.

With much respect,

Edited February 28, 2011 by imanuelga

[Seminarysnoozer]

The battle in scriptures, represents the battle of the lord and within ourselfs to become what he called "regenerated"(other would say born again... Saints...). I like this way of interpret the scriptures.

This is an adress where a member of the church compare Swedenborg doctrine and Joseph Smith. There is a lot of in common :

Article

I have been a member for 20 years, because I found teaching that were near what I thought (I did serve a mission), but If I had known Swedenborg before, It is to Him that I would have turn me.

With much respect,

That is exactly what I was saying, 'a battle within ourselves' (a battle between body and spirit) that you rejected, now you are saying that you like that way of interpreting the scriptures?

There are HUGE differences between Swedenborg's writings and the true gospel. He did not believe that Jesus payed for our sins. He did not believe that we existed before as spirits. He did not believe in the Godhead. He did not believe in a resurrected body. He did not believe in spirit children. He did not believe that a church organization is necessary in this world and therefore would not believe in priesthood power or ordinances. Specifically, he did not believe baptism was necessary. (to name just a few)

I believe there were many of his time that helped people to re-think the mainstream Christian religion. But, there is no reason to go backwards now that we have the fullness of the gospel. There is no reason to take his words as truth if it isn't so expressed in the fullness of the gospel that we have now as you can see there were many core beliefs he had wrong.

Satan would love for people to say that they have no need for a church and therefore reject saving ordinances and being a covenant people. I would never want to promote such thinking.

Edited February 28, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer

[RipplecutBuddha]

Yes.

Depends on the context

Thems fightin' words

Ditto

[imanuelga]

You know pretty much than I do !

That is exactly what I was saying, 'a battle within ourselves' (a battle between body and spirit) that you rejected, now you are saying that you like that way of interpreting the scriptures?

It's not a battle between body and spirit...

It's a battle agains error, false and bad. To became a new man.

Swedenborg is not against the body !

He did not believe that we existed before as spirits.

But He believe that god put in men that he called "remains" or "reliquae", that is the good in Him.

It is more or less the equivalent of saying that we did good choise before coming on earth (that we are good enough to come on earth and take a body). The differents is that Swedenborg says that this is from God and LDs doctrine from our choice. Personnaly I found more easy to love that is divine in man this way.

He did not believe in a resurrected body.

Yes he didn't.

Satan would love for people to say that they have no need for a church and therefore reject saving ordinances and being a covenant people. I would never want to promote such thinking.

Well, in the beginning of this post I had been warned to be respectuous with other believes.

May be we are as passionate as the other one.

Therefore I will answer you, I hope, with all respect each of us deserv as a child of God:

Satan surely don't like also a person who teach that we don't have to believe and accept what we don't agree or understand. I would like to point out that you are forced to "flatten" your thoughts if your conclusions about the deity does not correspond with the leaders ones.

Concerning the priestood.

Swedenborg said that what make a person great in even is his will of humiliate himself and serve the other.

The priestood, he said, is the celestial love. That is the real power and the joy and that is make us Great, and this come from God. That church is within us (temple).

Well, LDS doctrine teach that priesthood without the justice doesn't count also.

But the justice without priesthood ? This doesn't count neither ? Because I heard a lot of men who died for justice without the priestood. Who would have autority?

I do prefer justice without priesthood than the oposite.

You may say both... because It is impossible to get full justice without priesthood ... So explain me what is full justice.

Also, of course, it is written that every body will confess that God is the Lord(all knees will...) but it is more of by ourself that because God will compel us by force ! And I don't think also that the lord want us to sumit us in this way neither ! That is what Swedenborg believe. It would be rather strange that we teach this to a children concerning the laws (that we have to fight and vote against bad laws or dicators ) but accept this because it is from God !

It is true we have to humiliate before God but I don't believe it is in this way. That is what Swedenborg teach.

You may say also that the priesthood is to bring the truth and salvation to men (LDS doctrine teach that is the power of God to serve others), and that because of Priestood there is revelation from eaven.

however ,To come back to the theme of this post : I wrote a letter to my bishop (and I gave him, he said it was very respectuous ) who gave it to the stake president who give to... Because I disagree absolutly what the church teach about Samson, this put me off or sad!.. Because It'is unbeliveble that the church who name with the name of the savior is unable to find him in this scriptures when he is so evident ! As blind ! And more without shame, judging the lord himself !

This is amaizing to me !

So I am waiting for my jugement ! Because I will not sustain leaders who bring false accusation against some one they don't understand!

But I will wait the answer patiently !

I don't want to argue with anyone, but I am looking for the truth (wherever it is) and I will also defend it (with a sword if necessary )

With respect for you but not for the wrong and error.

Edited February 28, 2011 by imanuelga

[Seminarysnoozer]

You know pretty much than I do !

It's not a battle between body and spirit...

It's a battle agains error, false and bad. To became a new man.

Swedenborg is not against the body !

But He believe that god put in men that he called "remains" or "reliquae", that is the good in Him.

It is more or less the equivalent of saying that we did good choise before coming on earth (that we are good enough to come on earth and take a body). The differents is that Swedenborg says that this is from God and LDs doctrine from our choice. Personnaly I found more easy to love that is divine in man this way.

Yes he didn't.

Well, in the beginning of this post I had been warned to be respectuous with other believes.

May be we are as passionate as the other one.

Therefore I will answer you, I hope, with all respect each of us deserv as a child of God:

Satan surely don't like also a person who teach that we don't have to believe and accept what we don't agree or understand. I would like to point out that you are forced to "flatten" your thoughts if your conclusions about the deity does not correspond with the leaders ones.

Concerning the priestood.

Swedenborg said that what make a person great in even is his will of humiliate himself and serve the other.

The priestood, he said, is the celestial love. That is the real power and the joy and that is make us Great, and this come from God. That church is within us (temple).

Well, LDS doctrine teach that priesthood without the justice doesn't count also.

But the justice without priesthood ? This doesn't count neither ? Because I heard a lot of men who died for justice without the priestood. Who would have autority?

I do prefer justice without priesthood than the oposite.

You may say both... because It is impossible to get full justice without priesthood ... So explain me what is full justice.

Also, of course, it is written that every body will confess that God is the Lord(all knees will...) but it is more of by ourself that because God will compel us by force ! And I don't think also that the lord want us to sumit us in this way neither ! That is what Swedenborg believe. It would be rather strange that we teach this to a children concerning the laws (that we have to fight and vote against bad laws or dicators ) but accept this because it is from God !

It is true we have to humiliate before God but I don't believe it is in this way. That is what Swedenborg teach.

You may say also that the priesthood is to bring the truth and salvation to men (LDS doctrine teach that is the power of God to serve others), and that because of Priestood there is revelation from eaven.

however ,To come back to the theme of this post : I wrote a letter to my bishop (and I gave him, he said it was very respectuous ) who gave it to the stake president who give to... Because I disagree absolutly what the church teach about Samson, this put me off or sad!.. Because It'is unbeliveble that the church who name with the name of the savior is unable to find him in this scriptures when he is so evident ! As blind ! And more without shame, judging the lord himself !

This is amaizing to me !

So I am waiting for my jugement ! Because I will not sustain leaders who bring false accusation against some one they don't understand!

But I will wait the answer patiently !

I don't want to argue with anyone, but I am looking for the truth (wherever it is) and I will also defend it (with a sword if necessary )

With respect for you but not for the wrong and error.

I can testify to you that this life is not a test of comprehension. This would be a horrible way to test comprehension, to place someone in a fallen body with a vail obscuring the past. This life is a test of faith. I believe we knew more before this life than we do now. I cannot understand this idea that we can be saved in our heads and then everything will be okay if we have already chosen God's plan before. There are many faiths in the world that believe that way. All of which deny the need for Priesthood authority and saving ordinances. But, that is the core of LDS religion.

You "looking for the truth" may be the problem because it has to be intellectually sound to you and not based in faith. Sometimes those intellectual pursuits obscure the 'right eye', and Jesus said it is better to cut it out then let it take you down.

[imanuelga]

Sometimes those intellectual pursuits obscure the 'right eye', and Jesus said it is better to cut it out then let it take you down.

Do you mean my physical body eyes ?

I can testify to you that this life is not a test of comprehension. This would be a horrible way to test comprehension, to place someone in a fallen body with a vail obscuring the past. This life is a test of faith. I believe we knew more before this life than we do now.

Men will be judge depending on or conscience not only our comprehesion. But our conscience depend also of our comprehension : Romains 2

Concerning the eye and faith, let me share this scripture also :

2 Samuël 5:6 *¶And the king and his men went to Jerusalem unto the Jebusites, the inhabitants of the land: which spake unto David, saying, Except thou take away the blind and the lame, thou shalt not come in hither: thinking, David cannot come in hither.

7 *Nevertheless David took the strong hold of Zion: the same is the city of David.

8 *And David said on that day, Whosoever getteth up to the gutter, and smiteth the Jebusites, and the lame and the blind, that are hated of David's soul, he shall be chief and captain. Wherefore they said, The blind and the lame shall not come into the house.

Is It not amazing how David (the lord) seems to reject the blind and the lame?

Would you take it literally?

Is it true literally?

Of course not ! But Let me say that I will prefer to be blind in the flesh than blind spiritually !!

Still people are blind, not only they don't see God but even they reject him !

When it is wrotten that he came to give sight to the blind, he spoke mainly spiritually.

You surely know the scripture who say in John 17:3 "The eternal life is to Know you and this one you send, ie Jesus"

Of course, comprehension is not enough. It is just a part of the faith. Swedenborg said that 12 represent the holy of faith (as the 12 sons of Israel, whom the first is Ruben - he saw- and the second the ear Simeon - he eard-)

But It is the beginning. How can you say : I have enough?

I don't believe you.

God bless you.

Edited March 1, 2011 by imanuelga

[Seminarysnoozer]

Do you mean my physical body eyes ?

Men will be judge depending on or conscience not only our comprehesion. But our conscience depend also of our comprehension : Romains 2

Concerning the eye and faith, let me share this scripture also :

2 Samuël 5:6 *¶And the king and his men went to Jerusalem unto the Jebusites, the inhabitants of the land: which spake unto David, saying, Except thou take away the blind and the lame, thou shalt not come in hither: thinking, David cannot come in hither.

7 *Nevertheless David took the strong hold of Zion: the same is the city of David.

8 *And David said on that day, Whosoever getteth up to the gutter, and smiteth the Jebusites, and the lame and the blind, that are hated of David's soul, he shall be chief and captain. Wherefore they said, The blind and the lame shall not come into the house.

Is It not amazing how David (the lord) seems to reject the blind and the lame?

Would you take it literally?

Is it true literally?

Of course not ! But Let me say that I will prefer to be blind in the flesh than blind spiritually !!

Still people are blind, not only they don't see God but even they reject him !

When it is wrotten that he came to give sight to the blind, he spoke mainly spiritually.

You surely know the scripture who say in John 17:3 "The eternal life is to Know you and this one you send, ie Jesus"

Of course, comprehension is not enough. It is just a part of the faith. Swedenborg said that 12 represent the holy of faith (as the 12 sons of Israel, whom the first is Ruben - he saw- and the second the ear Simeon - he eard-)

But It is the beginning. How can you say : I have enough?

I don't believe you.

God bless you.

Faith is much more important than comprehension. Comprehension comes after faith. I can tell you put a lot of emphases on comprehension by the words you choose, such as "conclusion". I don't have to conclude anything in this life so long as I have faith in Christ. I can have faith in Christ and not understand much of His reasons or purpose and still be fine in the next life. Of course, it is good to try to understand as much as we can. But the saving graces of God are not dependent on how much God-like knowledge we have acquired in this life because I can assure you no matter how hard you work at attaining any secular based, fact based or theoretical based knowledge you will never have as much as what will be opened up to you the moment you die. When the vail is lifted the knowledge returned from your previous existence will far outweigh what you think you "comprehend" in this life. The reason for this probationary like state is just that, it is a test, a test of faith. The goal of religion, therefore, is not to fully understand all of God's ways and purposes in this life but to develop faith in His ways. I think that is the premise that you are tripping over.

(the right eye, by the way refers to one's ability to discern good from evil, the intellectual discernment comes from the mind, represented by the forehead, ((which is where the mark of the beast lies)), if the forehead overpowers the eye, then it becomes obscured, and it is better to cut that out then continue with the right eye obscured)

Edited March 1, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer

[imanuelga]

Faith is much more important than comprehension. Comprehension comes after faith.

That is true !

But what is faith?

Hebreux 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

I Believe and I have Faith that if I am looking for my lord with all my heart, mind and strength (Matthiew 22:37 *Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.) Then he will recompense me with comprehension.

The goal of religion, therefore, is not to fully understand all of God's ways and purposes in this life but to develop faith in His ways. I think that is the premise that you are tripping over.

1st questions :

So can you explain what do you pray for ? To keep the commendment? so you will be awarded in the next life?

If the goal of life is the trial of your faith, you should ask for this, shouldn't you ?

Also if comprehension is not so important..

2nd question :

Why has the bible so many pages, if not to be understood or for our profit ?

Because if I follow you I think we should burn nearly the all Bible !!

I will give you mine answers to these questions still I will wait for your answer:

When I pray, I pray for wisdom, and understanding. I pray not for the rich things of the earth but for those in heaven. Because there is riches who are uncorruptible (as in Genèse 2:11 *The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;

12 *And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone. That is already a symbol)

And I pray for my children that they do get this riches too and also to mine "ennemies" that they get them to.

Because I have the weakness to think that I understand (a little) this scripture :

1 Corinthiens 1:5 *That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;

Of course, and this is to answer the 2nd question, I will never understand all things.. Of course not because God is infinit and I am not. Because He is without comparaison any with me. Because I am nothing !

But I will always be Thirsty and hungry!

May it be the same for you !

Respectuously !

Edited March 2, 2011 by imanuelga

[volgadon]

Concerning the eye and faith, let me share this scripture also :

2 Samuël 5:6 *¶And the king and his men went to Jerusalem unto the Jebusites, the inhabitants of the land: which spake unto David, saying, Except thou take away the blind and the lame, thou shalt not come in hither: thinking, David cannot come in hither.

7 *Nevertheless David took the strong hold of Zion: the same is the city of David.

8 *And David said on that day, Whosoever getteth up to the gutter, and smiteth the Jebusites, and the lame and the blind, that are hated of David's soul, he shall be chief and captain. Wherefore they said, The blind and the lame shall not come into the house.

Is It not amazing how David (the lord) seems to reject the blind and the lame?

Would you take it literally?

Is it true literally?

Of course not ! But Let me say that I will prefer to be blind in the flesh than blind spiritually !!

Still people are blind, not only they don't see God but even they reject him !

When it is wrotten that he came to give sight to the blind, he spoke mainly spiritually.

Wow, you missed the meaning entirely. What happened here is that the Jebusites decided to scare David and his army by an object lesson of sorts. In the ancient Near East, blindness and lameness were considered punishment by a god. What the Jebusites hoped to acheive by placing the blind and lame upon the walls was scaring David's men into believing that the Jebusite god would curse them as he did the blind and lame.

You surely know the scripture who say in John 17:3 "The eternal life is to Know you and this one you send, ie Jesus"

Knowing here is not so much an intellectual comprehension as an intimate relationship.

Sharp sword my foot.