Why We Do Missions The Way We Do

[prisonchaplain]

Why do churches have missions and missionaries? Of course, to “win the lost,” or gain converts. But, beyond the obvious, why do we approach the work the way we do?

To give you a spectrum of missions results for discussion, consider the following (estimates are rough–the LDS one was based upon an apparently “pro” website: http://www.cumorah.com/distribution/index.html

Southern Baptists number approximately 20 million, about 17 million of whom reside in the United States.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints number about 11 million, a little less than half of whom reside in the United States. However, another 34% reside in the Americas and 13% reside in the Island nations.

The Assemblies of God has about 35 million members, three million of which reside in the U.S. It’s largest membership is in Brazil, and it’s largest church is in South Korea.

Why this difference? Why are Southern Baptists so heavily concentrated in the U.S., despite their large missionary force? Likewise, Mormons, with roughly 60,000 missionaries worldwide? Furthermore, why has the A/G done so well overseas?

I cannot speak much to the Baptists or the LDS, but I do know the approach of AGWM (Assemblies of God World Missions). The program goes this way:

1. In unevangelized nations, send in evangelists to spread the Good News through radio broadcasts, large meetings, or whatever means is effective in the area.

2. Once a group of converts exists, send in church planters to help them organize. Once some churches are established, pull out the evangelists.

3. Set up Bible colleges, with trained professors. Often pastors will be appointed and mentored by the church planters, as they are studying. Once a number of them have graduated and placed in successful churches, pull out the church-planting missionaries.

4. Send promising national pastors to seminary training at regional seminaries, such as Asia Pacific Theological Seminary, in the Philippines. As a sufficient number of scholars are raised up, the missionaries can move out and go to other areas.

Bottom-line: The church work is turned over to national believers as soon as possible, thus the work becomes indigenous, locally relevent, and eventually, they start sending missionaries.

As an example, the Assemblies of God has less than a half dozen missionaries in South Korea, because the church there is mature. In fact, Korea now sends a fair number of missionaries to the United States!

Why do we do missions the way we do? My church was founded, primarily to organize Pentecostal missions in a way that was logical, not redundant, and of course, such that God would be pleased.

Some have suggested that the LDS reliance primarily on short-term missionaries (two-year service) is due to two factors: #1. They primarily do evangelism, which does not require highly trained church leaders and teachers. #2. The training and experience the missionaries gain cements their commitment to the LDS teachings and Church, thus providing a large cadre of loyal adult leaders. Such an approach is understandable. My church also has short-term programs for teenagers (Ambassadors in Mission) and construction mission trips (where a group of men will go and build a church), both of which result in highly-committed, missions minded members.

I simply posted this to spur discussion about missions in general. Any thoughts are welcome. Hey, we all know that post topics are really just jumping points anyway!

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Another source of LDS stats that is more detailed and comprehensive is here: http://www.adherents.com/largecom/lds_dem.html This is a non-LDS site.

Why this difference? Why are Southern Baptists so heavily concentrated in the U.S., despite their large missionary force? Likewise, Mormons, with roughly 60,000 missionaries worldwide? Furthermore, why has the A/G done so well overseas?

There are more LDS members outside the USA than in the USA. Statistically speaking, it would seem that the LDS church has done far better overseas than in America. I don't get the question.

Bottom-line: The church work is turned over to national believers as soon as possible, thus the work becomes indigenous, locally relevent, and eventually, they start sending missionaries.

Ummmm...this is exactly what the LDS church does. We don't fly bishops out of Utah down to Peru to lead congregations.

Why do we do missions the way we do? My church was founded, primarily to organize Pentecostal missions in a way that was logical, not redundant, and of course, such that God would be pleased.

So Baptist and LDS mission efforts are redundant? That aside, I will say that my best friend at my last job belonged to the A/G. His parents were missionaries for their church and were always off doing the good work. The A/G missionary program is admirable (though I don't think it preferable to the LDS program). Anyone who's willing to give up lands, home and family to serve Christ gets five gold stars in my book.

Some have suggested that the LDS reliance primarily on short-term missionaries (two-year service) is due to two factors:

I suggest that the LDS church relies primarily on short-term missionaries because prophets and apostles have received guidance from the Lord, directing the work and describing its dimensions. Of course the two reasons you listed make sense and are logical, but the reason we do it the way we do is because the Lord--speaking through our anointed leaders--said to. :)

[prisonchaplain]

There are more LDS members outside the USA than in the USA. Statistically speaking, it would seem that the LDS church has done far better overseas than in America. I don't get the question.

Perhaps if I rephrased, and simply asked how churches, in general could do missions better? I could restate my statistic roughly as follows: Us vs. Elsewhere

Southern Baptist = 17:3

COJCLDS = 48:52 (or roughly 1:1)

AOG = 3:32

Again, I just found the stats curious. Not suggesting anybody is doing this venture wrong--just wondering what to make of it.

Ummmm...this is exactly what the LDS church does. We don't fly bishops out of Utah down to Peru to lead congregations.

But, don't you need a critical mass of adherents before indigenous bishops are possible?

So Baptist and LDS mission efforts are redundant?

AK, I'm not sure why you read my post that way? It's sort of like, "Hey, you look good today." And getting the response, "What do you mean TODAY?"

The quote you picked up was part of an explanation as to how the Assemblies of God was originally founded--to help get Pentecostal missions organized and avoid redundancy. I suppose I could have given greater detail: that in the early 1900s and teens pentecostal missionaries operated independently, and often did duplicate on another's work. There was little cohesion, with each going where he felt called to go, with little plan or direction. I meant no disrespect to SBC or LDS mission efforts.

That aside, I will say that my best friend at my last job belonged to the A/G. His parents were missionaries for their church and were always off doing the good work. The A/G missionary program is admirable (though I don't think it preferable to the LDS program). Anyone who's willing to give up lands, home and family to serve Christ gets five gold stars in my book.

That's the AK I've come to know and appreciate! Again, not looking to compare and compete, but to figure out how missions in general might be improved.

I suggest that the LDS church relies primarily on short-term missionaries because prophets and apostles have received guidance from the Lord, directing the work and describing its dimensions. Of course the two reasons you listed make sense and are logical, but the reason we do it the way we do is because the Lord--speaking through our anointed leaders--said to. :)

But could the LORD not anoint "strategic thinking?" As a simple example, in one area it might be good to establish a hospital, in another a soup kitchen, in another a farm for prostitutes who've converted and need work skills.

Again, I'm just thinking out loud here. To give you some of my own experience, my missionary experience was not through A/G missions. I worked with an indigenous Korean Bible study ministry--one that used English as an attraction for university students. My "missionary covering" was an evangelical "tentmaker" agency, that specialized in placing skilled Christian workers in countries that usually did not allow missionaries. The agency worked with my home church, and so I did have my denomination's blessing. Since the agency I worked with specialized in nontraditional missions, it often had a "cutting edge," approach--and very much favored indigenous works, vs. Americanized or Westernized approaches.

Sorry if my original post seemed overly self-congratulatory. My purpose was to getting us talking about missions approaches in general, not to set up a "who's got the best program" contest.

[Ray]

Sorry if my original post seemed overly self-congratulatory. My purpose was to getting us talking about missions approaches in general, not to set up a "who's got the best program" contest.

Okay, if that was your purpose, let me make our [LDS] position short and simple for you.

We [LDS] believe (and some of us know) we have prophets and apostles who are authorized by our Lord Jesus Christ to lead THE only organization on Earth which is authorized by our Lord to help Him in His work, as they receive personal revelation from Him to assure them of what our Lord wants them (and the members) to do.

Or in other words, we believe our leadership decisions come directly from our Lord Jesus Christ, as He reveals His will to the President (or presiding officer) of His church here on this Earth, (who is President in accordance with our Lord’s revelations), who then reveals those revelations from our Lord concerning the Church and the world to other prophets and leaders of the Church (who are also authorized by our Lord in accordance with our Lord’s revelations), who then confirm those revelations with our Lord… if they have any doubts concerning what the President declares to be true… and then delegate some responsibilities to some other members of the Church.

........................................................................................................................................................

You (and most if not all non-LDS groups) have leaders in your (and their) organization(s) who believe they are blessed by our Lord with “strategic thinking” capabilities, although they do not claim to receive personal revelation from our Lord, nor do they claim to be authorized as prophets and apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, because they don’t believe our Lord works “that” way anymore with any of us who are now living on Earth.

Or in other words, while the role of your (and their) leaders seems similar to that of our leaders, the “inspiration” your (and their) leaders believe and claim to receive is admittedly not of the same “quality” as that received by other prophets and apostles of our Lord who received personal revelations from God in the past, because you believe and admit there is something “special” about those other revelations (which are considered scripture) compared to the “inspiration” that you (and they) receive now.

.......................................................................................................................................................

And btw, I said “most if not all non-LDS groups” up above because I believe there are some groups who actually do claim to be authorized by our Lord with personal revelation from Him, although in fact we [LDS] know they are not, because we [LDS] know our Lord only has “one” church.

Or to make it even simpler for you, Tommy, we [LDS] believe you are not a member of the only church or organization on Earth which is authorized by our Lord’s authority… although you may and can be a Christian, and do a lot to do “good” works.

Or in other words, while we [LDS] believe neither you nor any other people in any other church on the face of this Earth is authorized by our Lord to help Him in "His" work, you and they can and do help to accomplish a lot of “good" works on Earth, and some of that is done by showing the errors of your way.

And btw, I still love you, so don't consider this a personal attack. :)

p.s. If you'd really like to learn about our doctrine without meeting with any of our missionaries who should teach you, I recommend a book from Joseph F. Smith called "Doctrines of Salvation", which you can buy at any LDS bookstore or online at this site here. It's a fairly thick book but the doctrine is presented in a series of organized subjects... none of which would be better for you to study in all of our "standard" works.

[prisonchaplain]

Or in other words, we believe our leadership decisions come directly from our Lord Jesus Christ, as He reveals His will to the President (or presiding officer) of His church here on this Earth, (who is President in accordance with our Lord’s revelations), who then reveals those revelations from our Lord concerning the Church and the world to other prophets and leaders of the Church (who are also authorized by our Lord in accordance with our Lord’s revelations), who then confirm those revelations with our Lord… if they have any doubts concerning what the President declares to be true… and then delegate some responsibilities to some other members of the Church. ... You (and most if not all non-LDS groups) have leaders in your (and their) organization(s) who believe they are blessed by our Lord with “strategic thinking” capabilities, although they do not claim to receive personal revelation from our Lord, nor do they claim to be authorized as prophets and apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, because they don’t believe our Lord works “that” way anymore with any of us who are now living on Earth.

For clarification, Ray (and all who might know), are you saying that EVERY day to day administrative decision that comes out of LDS HQ is inspired of God, similar to when the Catholic Pope claims to speak ex cathedra (infallibly)??? You've made yourself abundantly clear in matters of doctrine and who truly and bestly (made the word up) represents God, but you even claim that all accounting, logistical, secretarial decisions are absolutely "of God?"

Yes, my leaders pray, have an anointing, seek God's direction. But, as you intimate, all would admit to being fallible, to sometimes misreading God's intent, or to just plain fouling it up. Despite what you say, I'd be truly surprised if the LDS leadership would not express the same humility.

[Snow]

Another source of LDS stats that is more detailed and comprehensive is here: http://www.adherents.com/largecom/lds_dem.html This is a non-LDS site.

Take a look at the home page: http://www.cumorah.com/

Why do churches have missions and missionaries? Of course, to “win the lost,” or gain converts. But, beyond the obvious, why do we approach the work the way we do?

To give you a spectrum of missions results for discussion, consider the following (estimates are rough–the LDS one was based upon an apparently “pro” website: http://www.cumorah.com/distribution/index.html

I wouldn't worry about it's "pro" status resulting in biased stats. The original intent was to provide a cold hard look at the Church's efforts in order to motivate a "progressive" response.

The Church's missionary effort is, as are all it's efforts, conservative, prim and proper - nothing flashy, nothing done without solid control.

I think that the Church could grow much faster in certain areas with a church planting type approach but it would lose control and correlation (consistency) in doctrines, beliefs and shared culture - all of which is essential to our unity and strength.

A Mormon in Peru is much like a Mormon in New Jersey. It's different with other denominations.

[prisonchaplain]

The Church's missionary effort is, as are all it's efforts, conservative, prim and proper - nothing flashy, nothing done without solid control.

I think that the Church could grow much faster in certain areas with a church planting type approach but it would lose control and correlation (consistency) in doctrines, beliefs and shared culture - all of which is essential to our unity and strength.

A Mormon in Peru is much like a Mormon in New Jersey. It's different with other denominations.

This response was exactly what I was looking for. Very insightful indeed. Yes, LDS folk are well-known for their extremely strong community. Perhaps glacier-paced change is the price to pay for such global cohesion.

[Ray]

For clarification, Ray (and all who might know), are you saying that EVERY day to day administrative decision that comes out of LDS HQ is inspired of God, similar to when the Catholic Pope claims to speak ex cathedra (infallibly)??? You've made yourself abundantly clear in matters of doctrine and who truly and bestly (made the word up) represents God, but you even claim that all accounting, logistical, secretarial decisions are absolutely "of God?"

Yes I am, and Yes I do, although I didn’t compare it with any claims of the Pope.

Or in other words, Yes, the President and other prophets and apostles of our Lord’s church on Earth do(es) seek inspiration and revelation from our Lord daily, to help them live their lives and make the best decisions they can possibly make in all their areas of responsiblity… just as anybody else on Earth now does or if not should start to do.

And btw, I did notice that you didn’t even address my statement considering the fact that your leaders (and the leaders of other non-LDS groups) openly admit to NOT receive revelation from God of the same quality that prophets and apostles did in the past, (and which LDS claim today), because you consider what you (and they) receive to be inferior to that in the scriptures… which shows not only do you lack His Faith but you really CAN see the difference… although you still can’t see the truth of His Faith, because you really don’t have His Faith… which you openly admit.

[prisonchaplain]

<div class='quotemain'>

For clarification, Ray (and all who might know), are you saying that EVERY day to day administrative decision that comes out of LDS HQ is inspired of God, similar to when the Catholic Pope claims to speak ex cathedra (infallibly)??? You've made yourself abundantly clear in matters of doctrine and who truly and bestly (made the word up) represents God, but you even claim that all accounting, logistical, secretarial decisions are absolutely "of God?"

Yes I am, and Yes I do, although I didn’t compare it with any claims of the Pope.

Or in other words, Yes, the President and other prophets and apostles of our Lord’s church on Earth do(es) seek inspiration and revelation from our Lord daily, to help them live their lives and make the best decisions they can possibly make in all their areas of responsiblity… just as anybody else on Earth now does or if not should start to do.

Ray, maybe what you are saying is accurate. You're more qualified than me, obviously, to comment. However, I still find it hard to digest that church authorities would claim absolute inspiration from God (100% correctness) in even their most mundane day to day tasks. Even the Pope would probably say, from time to time, "I should have done that differently." I welcome other LDS to confirm or clarify whether it is true that all decisions that come from the church authorities, regardless of topic, or level of importance, is correct and inspired of God, and thus unquestioned.

And btw, I did notice that you didn’t even address my statement considering the fact that your leaders (and the leaders of other non-LDS groups) openly admit to NOT receive revelation from God of the same quality that prophets and apostles did in the past, (and which LDS claim today), because you consider what you (and they) receive to be inferior to that in the scriptures… which shows not only do you lack His Faith but you really CAN see the difference… although you still can’t see the truth of His Faith, because you really don’t have His Faith… which you openly admit.

Sure I addessed your statement. I said that the bretheren (and sisters) in Springfield, MO would readily admit that not every decision they make is the result of perfectly discerning the will of God. Our magazine may contain occasional typos. A picture may have the wrong caption under it. A missionary candidate convinced the authorities s/he was called to go, and came home six months later, depressed, and unable to continue.

If i read you right, no LDS missionary has ever come home early, or failed--after all, they were called, and the church is without error.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I'm just finding it hard to believe that even one who truly would be a modern day prophet of God, would claim to be without any error in every decision, no matter how minor. Further, I'm seeking confirmation that this claim really is the one the LDS church makes.

[Ray]

You seem to have missed what I meant.

I’m saying that when the President of the Church and any other prophet and apostle of our Lord receives revelation from Him, they know beyond doubt it’s from Him, and they consider it to be of the same quality as other revelations received by other prophets and apostles in the past… or just as binding as “scripture”… and yet you and your leaders (and the leaders of other non-LDS groups) do not consider what they receive to be of the same quality as other revelations from our Lord, or of the same quality as scripture… which shows that you do not have the same faith or confidence in the revelations you and your leaders receive, as we do from that of our leaders… after receiving our own assurances from God.

But yes, on your point, that just as some people today misunderstand and misinterpret revelations from our Lord in the Bible, concerning what our Lord and His prophets and apostles actually meant, there are still people who misunderstand the revelations from our Presidents and other prophets and apostles in the Church, or don't know they are inspired by God.

Or in other words, you don't have the same confidence in your leaders and the inspiration and revelations they receive, while claiming they are authorized and inspired by God, as we [LDS] have faith in our leaders and the revelations they receive, while knowing they are inspired by God... and you have admitted that fact.

[Guest MrsS]

The drift I am getting is some think that the LDS missionary effort isn't as much in force out side of the US as other Christian faiths. Okay ~ I see it this way:

Where there are LDS Temples, then LDS Missionaries were once, were greatly successful, and now there are LDS communities within the towns, cities, countries, continents.

Here is the most current list of our Temples, it its entirety!

Temple Dedication Date

Kirtland (No longer owned by the Church) 27 March 1836

Nauvoo (Rededicated in June 2002) 30 April 1846

Operating Temples / Dedication Date

1 St. George Utah 06 April 1877

2 Logan Utah 17 May 1884

3 Manti Utah 21 May 1888

4 Salt Lake 06 April 1893

5 Laie Hawaii 27 November 1919

6 Cardston Alberta 26 August 1923

7 Mesa Arizona 23 October 1927

8 Idaho Falls Idaho 23 September 1945

9 Bern Switzerland 11 September 1955

10 Los Angeles California 11 March 1956

11 Hamilton New Zealand 20 April 1958

12 London England 07 September 1958

13 Oakland California 19 November 1964

14 Ogden Utah 18 January 1972

15 Provo Utah 09 February 1972

16 Washington D.C. 19 November 1974

17 São Paulo Brazil 30 October 1978

18 Tokyo Japan 27 October 1980

19 Seattle Washington 17 November 1980

20 Jordan River Utah 16 November 1981

21 Atlanta Georgia 01 June 1983

22 Apia Samoa 05 August 1983

23 Nuku alofa Tonga 09 August 1983

24 Santiago Chile 15 September 1983

25 Papeete Tahiti 27 October 1983

26 Mexico City Mexico 02 December 1983

27 Boise Idaho 25 May 1984

28 Sydney Australia 20 September 1984

29 Manila Philippines 25 September 1984

30 Dallas Texas 19 October 1984

31 Taipei Taiwan 17 November 1984

32 Guatemala City Guatemala 14 December 1984

33 Freiberg Germany 29 June 1985

34 Stockholm Sweden 02 July 1985

35 Chicago Illinois 09 August 1985

36 Johannesburg South Africa 24 August 1985

37 Seoul Korea 14 December 1985

38 Lima Peru 10 January 1986

39 Buenos Aires Argentina 17 January 1986

40 Denver Colorado 24 October 1986

41 Frankfurt Germany 28 August 1987

42 Portland Oregon 19 August 1989

43 Las Vegas Nevada 16 December 1989

44 Toronto Ontario 25 August 1990

45 San Diego California 25 April 1993

46 Orlando Florida 09 October 1994

47 Bountiful Utah 08 January 1995

48 Hong Kong China 26 May 1996

49 Mount Timpanogos Utah 13 October 1996

50 St. Louis Missouri 01 June 1997

51 Vernal Utah 02 November 1997

52 Preston England 07 June 1998

53 Monticello Utah 26 July 1998

54 Anchorage Alaska 09 January 1999

55 Colonia Juárez Chihuahua México 06 March 1999

56 Madrid Spain 19 March 1999

57 Bogotá Colombia 24 April 1999

58 Guayaquil Ecuador 01 August 1999

59 Spokane Washington 21 August 1999

60 Columbus Ohio 04 September 1999

61 Bismarck North Dakota 19 September 1999

62 Columbia South Carolina 16 October 1999

63 Detroit Michigan 23 October 1999

64 Halifax Nova Scotia 14 November 1999

65 Regina Saskatchewan 14 November 1999

66 Billings Montana 20 November 1999

67 Edmonton Alberta 11 December 1999

68 Raleigh North Carolina 18 December 1999

69 St. Paul Minnesota 09 January 2000

70 Kona Hawaii 23 January 2000

71 Ciudad Juárez México 26 February 2000

72 Hermosillo Sonora México 27 February 2000

73 Albuquerque New Mexico 05 March 2000

74 Oaxaca México 11 March 2000

75 Tuxtla Gutiérrez México 12 March 2000

76 Louisville Kentucky 19 March 2000

77 Palmyra New York 06 April 2000

78 Fresno California 09 April 2000

79 Medford Oregon 16 April 2000

80 Memphis Tennessee 23 April 2000

81 Reno Nevada 23 April 2000

82 Cochabamba Bolivia 30 April 2000

83 Tampico México 20 May 2000

84 Nashville Tennessee 21 May 2000

85 Villahermosa México 21 May 2000

86 Montréal Québec 04 June 2000

87 San José Costa Rica 04 June 2000

88 Fukuoka Japan 11 June 2000

89 Adelaide Australia 15 June 2000

90 Melbourne Australia 16 June 2000

91 Suva Fiji 18 June 2000

92 Mérida Mexico 08 July 2000

93 Veracruz México 09 July 2000

94 Baton Rouge Louisiana 16 July 2000

95 Oklahoma City Oklahoma 30 July 2000

96 Caracas Venezuela 20 August 2000

97 Houston Texas 26 August 2000

98 Birmingham Alabama 03 September 2000

99 Santo Domingo Dominican Republic 17 September 2000

100 Boston Massachusetts 01 October 2000

101 Recife Brazil 15 December 2000

102 Porto Alegre Brazil 17 December 2000

103 Montevideo Uruguay 18 March 2001

104 Winter Quarters Nebraska 22 April 2001

105 Guadalajara México 29 April 2001

106 Perth Australia 20 May 2001

107 Columbia River Washington 18 November 2001

108 Snowflake Arizona 03 March 2002

109 Lubbock Texas 21 April 2002

110 Monterrey México 28 April 2002

111 Campinas Brazil 17 May 2002

112 Asunción Paraguay 19 May 2002

113 Nauvoo Illinois 27 June 2002

114 The Hague Netherlands 08 September 2002

115 Brisbane Australia 15 June 2003

116 Redlands California 14 September 2003

117 Accra Ghana 11 January 2004

118 Copenhagen Denmark 23 May 2004

119 Manhattan New York 13 June 2004

120 San Antonio Texas 22 May 2005

121 Aba Nigeria 07 August 2005

122 Newport Beach California 28 August 2005

Temples Announced or Under Construction

Temple Announcement Date

Curitiba Brazil 23 August 2002

Draper Utah 02 October 2004

Harrison New York 30 September 1995

Helsinki Finland 02 April 2000

Kiev Ukraine 20 July 1998

Panamá City Panamá 23 August 2002

Rexburg Idaho 20 December 2003

Sacramento California 21 April 2001

Twin Falls Idaho 02 October 2004

(taken from: http://www.lds.org/temples/chronological/0...,1900-1,00.html )

Not only does the LDS Church have Prostelizing Missionaries. Those are the young men in Black suits, white shirts with the short haircuts and wearing the LDS Badges that you see. Oh, yes, there are young women too. Wearing black, navy blue and dark grey clothes.

We also have Senior Missionaries who not only prostelyize, but serve in other areas also.

This is from http://www.lds.org/csm/0,17022,4431-1,00.html The dollar amount refers to how much it will cost to live per month. Yes, ALL LDS Missionaries pay their own way.

SENIOR MISSION OPPORTUNITIES 1-800-453-3860

MISSIONARY DEPARTMENT

Coordinator: Elder Robert Harris

Salt Lake City: 801-240-6741

Toll Free: 1-(800) 453 -3860 ext. 2-6741

Proselyting (means Leadership, Member Activation, Referral Follow-Up/Fellowshipping)/Visitor Centers/Mission Offices

Desires to serve in specific areas can be expressed in the Bishop’s or Stake President’s comments.

Foreign Missions: Proselyting and/or Office. Foreign language training may be provided.

Albania 1 office couple $1300/mo.

Argentina 2 couples + 2 office $1000/mo.

Australia 3 couples + 3 office $1500/mo.

Baltic 1 couple needed $1400/mo.

Brazil 14 couples by July $900-$1400/mo.

Bulgaria 1 couple needed $1700/mo.

Cambodia 7 couples by June $1500/mo.

Canada 4 couples + 1 office $1250-2000/mo.

Chile 2 couples needed $920/mo.

Dominican Rep 4 couples + 3 office $1300/mo.

Ecuador 2 couples + 1 office $1100/mo.

England 5 couples + 2 office $2800-4000/mo.

Fiji Suva 4 couples + 1 office $1500/mo.

France 2 couples needed $1700-$2500/mo.

Germany 4 couples needed $1700/mo.

Ghana 2 couples by July $2000/mo.

Ghana Cape Coast 1 couple needed $2000/mo.

Guatemala 2 office couples $800-$1300/mo.

Honduras 1 couple needed $1200/mo.

Hungary 2 couples + 1 office $1800/mo.

India 1 couple needed $1500/mo.

Indonesia, Jakarta 2 couples + 1 office $1700/mo.

Italy 1 couple needed $1500/mo.

Jamaica 3 couples by July $1250/mo.

Japan Missions 6 couples + 2 office $2000/mo.

Kenya Nairobi 5 couples + 1 office $1700/mo.

Korea 5 couples needed $1300/mo.

Madagascar 1 couple needed 1300/mo.

Mexico 10 couples + 4 office $600-1600/mo.

Mongolia 2 couples + 1 office $1350/mo.

New Zealand 2 couples + 1 office $1900/mo.

Nigeria 5 couples + 2 office $2000/mo.

Norway 1 couple needed $2300/mo.

Panama 1 couple + 1 office $1000/mo.

Paraguay 1 couple needed $1600/mo.

Peru 2 couples + 2 office $1100/mo.

Philippines 12 couples + 2 office $1100/mo.

Poland Warsaw 3 couples needed $1100/mo.

Portugal 5 couples needed $1400/mo.

Puerto Rico 3 couples by July $1800/mo.

Romania Bucharest 1 couple needed $1400/mo.

Russian Missions 14 couples +1 office $1500/mo

South Africa 2 couples needed $1300-1900/mo.

Spain 3 couples needed $2000/mo.

Tahiti Papeete 4 couples needed $2000/mo.

Taiwan 1 couple + 1 office $1300/mo.

Thailand 4 couples needed $1500/mo.

Tonga 1 couple + 1 office $1000/mo.

Ukraine 1 couple + 1 office $1500/mo.

West Indies (French/Eng) 3couples $1800/mo.

Zimbabwe 4 couples needed $1400/mo.

Some Spanish language ability is greatly needed in Central and South America. Many foreign languages are needed in the USA and Canada.

For other locations call William Matthews at

801-240-3652 or 1-800-453-3860, ext. 2-3652.

United States and Canada

All missions need senior missionaries. You can also live at home and serve. Most missions can accommodate couples who want to live in their 5th wheel or motor home.

American Sign Language Couples

There is an urgent need for 3 ASL trained couples to work with deaf members in New York and Florida.

Mission Offices

Assignments include secretary to the mission president, financial secretary, apartment administrators, vehicle fleet administrators, and referral secretaries. Office missionaries will also assist in finding, retaining, and activating. Opportunities are available in:

THE UNITED STATES: Alabama, California, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Oregon, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and Washington.

INTERNATIONALLY: Albania, Argentina, Australia, Canada, Chile, Democratic Republic of Congo, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, England, Fiji, Ghana, Indonesia, Kenya, Mexico, Mongolia, Nigeria, Panama, Papua New Guinea, Peru, Philippines, Russia, South and Central America, Taiwan, Tonga, and Ukraine.

Senior Sisters

Senior sisters are needed to serve throughout the world in mission offices and in leadership, retention,

and medical assignments. Some locations are:

THE UNITED STATES: Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Florida, Georgia, Massachusetts, Mississippi, Montana, New Jersey, New York, Missouri, Nebraska, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, Texas, Virginia, and Washington.

INTERNATIONALLY: Argentina, Australia, Brazil, Cambodia, Canada, Ecuador, England, Fiji, Germany, Italy, Japan, Paraguay, Poland, Puerto Rico, Russia, South Africa, South American Countries, Taiwan, Thailand, and Ukraine.

For more information contact the Senior Missionary

Dept. at 1-800-453-3860, ext 2-3652 or ext. 2-6741.

Institute Outreach Centers in Europe

10 couples are needed by September to work with young single adults in finding, conversion, reactivation and retention. Senior couples work closely with the Mission and Stake Presidents and CES coordinators. English, German and Swedish languages are needed.

CHURCH EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM

Coordinator: Elder Terry Welch 801-240-6247

Toll free number is: 1-800-453-3860, ext. 2-6247

Church Educational System (CES)

Missionaries

Live at home service is desirable in most situations. These couples teach classes for young adults. They

work with local leaders to find and enroll seminary 5 5/2/2006 and Institute students. Help select and train volunteer seminary and Institute teachers. Need to be able to relate to single young adults.

CES Missionaries are currently needed at the following:

United States

California, Visalia July 06 $1600/mo.

Hawaii, Honolulu June 06 $2500/mo.

Kentucky, Bowling Green Nov 06 $2300/mo.

Massachusetts, Amherst June 06 $2150/mo.

Michigan, Detroit July 06 $1600/mo.

Michigan, Midland May 06 $1450/mo.

New Jersey, E. Brunswick May 06 $2100/mo.

New York, Manhattan May 06 $3300/mo.

New York, Rochester July 06 $1875/mo.

Oklahoma, Norman May 06 $1500/mo.

South Dakota, Pierre June 06 $1500/mo.

Utah, Gunnison (prison) May 06 $850/mo.

Virginia, Buena Vista (2 couples) July 06 $1500/mo.

Washington, D.C. Aug 06 $1600/mo.

West Virginia, Morgantown July 06 $2000/mo.

International

Africa, Mozambique July 06 $1800/mo.

Croatia ASAP $1200/mo.

Dominican Republic, Azua ASAP $1300/mo.

Dominican Republic, San Pedro ASAP $1500/mo.

Fiji, Nadi ASAP $900/mo.

Fiji, Suva (2 couples) ASAP $1500/mo.

India, Hyderabad July 06 $1550/mo.

Italy, Rome ASAP $2500/mo.

Poland, Warsaw ASAP $1100/mo.

Poland, Kaltowice, Krakow ASAP $1400/mo.

Russia, Krasnoyarsk ASAP $1500/mo.

Russia, Novosibirsk July 06 $1800/mo.

Russia, Tomsk ASAP $1400/mo.

Russia, Vladivostok ASAP $1500/mo.

Russia, Yekaterinburg ASAP $1500/mo.

Tonga, Nuku’alofa ASAP $1600/mo.

Ukraine, Khstkov ASAP $1100/mo.

Ukraine, Kiev Nov 06 $1600/mo.

I don't know about other faiths, but the LDS Church does not send Prostelyizing Missionaries in where the country does not want Prostelyizing. We send Medical, educational missionaries. Nurses and Doctors who care for the people as well as teach their the citizens how to care for their sick. From the basics on up. We send in Missionaries who teach the citizens how to grow crops that will grow and flourish in their area. Same with livestock. We teach them how to be self sufficient and to be contributing and valuable citizens to their own countries. We do not prostelyze, and we are ever so careful how we answer questions about our faith.

We do NOT go against the host governments laws. Article of Faith 12: We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

I knew a JW who told me that their Missionaries considered it a great honor to go to jail for prostelyzing in any country where they were told not to. She said that that is why they went there, and they would gladly die if need be by "Witnessing" to them.

[Guest MrsS]

If i read you right, no LDS missionary has ever come home early, or failed--after all, they were called, and the church is without error.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I'm just finding it hard to believe that even one who truly would be a modern day prophet of God, would claim to be without any error in every decision, no matter how minor. Further, I'm seeking confirmation that this claim really is the one the LDS church makes.

Did I miss something here? Did Ray say that? Where have you read that Gordon B. Hinckley or any other Latter-day Prophet claimed to be without any error in every decision, no matter how minor? There is no way there would ever be confirmation to this claim, because it has not happened.

Of course the Prophet is a human being. Just like Moses, Abraham, Nephi, Paul, Joseph Smith, etc. Yes they have all made mistakes. Personal mistakes. Joseph Smith wrote many times about how he had to repent often because he was too lighthearted. He loved a good joke, and he loved to wrestle, he loved to play with the children. He felt that this was not becoming of the Lord's Prophet. Personally ~ I feel that this shows him to be a great man.

Of course there have been Missionaries who have come home before their mission was over. It could be because they were ill, or so homesick that they could not complete their mission. Some have come home in disgrace too. Male and female, Senior Missionaries too. We are human first and foremost. We fall down and go bump. We sin, we make mistakes. Are you without sin, Prison Chaplain? Isn't that why we go to Church every Sunday and partake of the Sacrament. We repent of our sins constantly. Isn't that what Christ's atonement is all about?

The Church IS without error ~ Prison Chaplain. It is the members (who are human) who error. I think you are confusing the members with the Church. Just like we humans are wont to confuse the sin with the sinner.

***Perhaps it would be prudent that when we explain church doctrine we include a link to such doctrine. If we are stating that it is OUR own interpertation, or how we see it ~ that we make it clear that it is our Own Personal Opinion.

[prisonchaplain]

Did I miss something here? Did Ray say that? Where have you read that Gordon B. Hinckley or any other Latter-day Prophet claimed to be without any error in every decision, no matter how minor? There is no way there would ever be confirmation to this claim, because it has not happened.

Yep, Ray said it, and I was as surprised as you, because I doubt that your leaders have made such claims. Keep in mind that we were discussing missions strategies (not doctrine). Ray said:

Or in other words, we believe our leadership decisions come directly from our Lord Jesus Christ, as He reveals His will to the President (or presiding officer) of His church here on this Earth, (who is President in accordance with our Lord’s revelations), who then reveals those revelations from our Lord concerning the Church and the world to other prophets and leaders of the Church (who are also authorized by our Lord in accordance with our Lord’s revelations), who then confirm those revelations with our Lord… if they have any doubts concerning what the President declares to be true… and then delegate some responsibilities to some other members of the Church.

I asked for clarification, and Ray stood by his words, and then noted that the leaders of my faith tradition do not make such claims. I heartily agreed.

Of course the Prophet is a human being. Just like Moses, Abraham, Nephi, Paul, Joseph Smith, etc. Yes they have all made mistakes. Personal mistakes. Joseph Smith wrote many times about how he had to repent often because he was too lighthearted. He loved a good joke, and he loved to wrestle, he loved to play with the children. He felt that this was not becoming of the Lord's Prophet. Personally ~ I feel that this shows him to be a great man.

Of course there have been Missionaries who have come home before their mission was over. It could be because they were ill, or so homesick that they could not complete their mission. Some have come home in disgrace too. Male and female, Senior Missionaries too. We are human first and foremost. We fall down and go bump. We sin, we make mistakes. Are you without sin, Prison Chaplain? Isn't that why we go to Church every Sunday and partake of the Sacrament. We repent of our sins constantly. Isn't that what Christ's atonement is all about?

You have no argument from me. Again, we were discussion missions strategy, not doctrine. Ray said that my church leaders think strategically, while the LDS leaders receive their instructions DIRECTLY from Christ. I sought clarification, and he said I had read him correctly.

The Church IS without error ~ Prison Chaplain. It is the members (who are human) who error. I think you are confusing the members with the Church. Just like we humans are wont to confuse the sin with the sinner.

I'm just trying to clarify what was said--I found it hard to believe the Church insisted that it's administrative decisions were infallible, but that was the message I seemed to be getting.

You seem to have missed what I meant.

I’m saying that when the President of the Church and any other prophet and apostle of our Lord receives revelation from Him, they know beyond doubt it’s from Him, and they consider it to be of the same quality as other revelations received by other prophets and apostles in the past… or just as binding as “scripture”… and yet you and your leaders (and the leaders of other non-LDS groups) do not consider what they receive to be of the same quality as other revelations from our Lord, or of the same quality as scripture… which shows that you do not have the same faith or confidence in the revelations you and your leaders receive, as we do from that of our leaders… after receiving our own assurances from God.

But yes, on your point, that just as some people today misunderstand and misinterpret revelations from our Lord in the Bible, concerning what our Lord and His prophets and apostles actually meant, there are still people who misunderstand the revelations from our Presidents and other prophets and apostles in the Church, or don't know they are inspired by God.

Or in other words, you don't have the same confidence in your leaders and the inspiration and revelations they receive, while claiming they are authorized and inspired by God, as we [LDS] have faith in our leaders and the revelations they receive, while knowing they are inspired by God... and you have admitted that fact.

Ray, I'm not sure if you're revising the claim that the Church's administrative, tactical, and otherwise practical decisions are all inspired, coming directly from Christ. That was the understanding I was seeking clarification on. The original topic of this string was missions strategy. You now seem to be addressing the issues of canon and modern-day prophetic offices, which may be a worthy topic, but might come across more clearly in a new post topic.

[prisonchaplain]

The drift I am getting is some think that the LDS missionary effort isn't as much in force out side of the US as other Christian faiths.

That's not quite the right nuance, because, once again, it engenders a competitive, "who's best?" line of posts. I'm really more interested in why some missions efforts result in great growth overseas, while others see moderate growth, and still others not so much. My general notion is that the more quickly a mission effort can be made indigenous (i.e., turned over to national church workers) the more likely it is to succeed and grow.

SNOW correctly pointed out the downside to rapidly turning over missions work to local members--the chance of diverse teaching and methods will lead to a lack of cohesion and unity.

Not only does the LDS Church have Prostelizing Missionaries. Those are the young men in Black suits, white shirts with the short haircuts and wearing the LDS Badges that you see. Oh, yes, there are young women too. Wearing black, navy blue and dark grey clothes. We also have Senior Missionaries who not only prostelyize, but serve in other areas also.

This is news to me...thanks MrsS.

I don't know about other faiths, but the LDS Church does not send Prostelyizing Missionaries in where the country does not want Prostelyizing.

My guess is that most of the denominational missions groups do not do so, but smaller independent works do so. It would be cruel not too. Why deny people the opportunity to hear the gospel, because a government is hostile, or because a dominant culture is not receptive? This gospel is worth contending for, and, yes, dying for. In particular, countries in what is called the 10-40 Window are heavily non or anti-Christian, and have little gospel witness. Praise God for the brave missionaries who risk their lives to bring truth to these most difficult areas.

We send Medical, educational missionaries. Nurses and Doctors who care for the people as well as teach their the citizens how to care for their sick. From the basics on up. We send in Missionaries who teach the citizens how to grow crops that will grow and flourish in their area. Same with livestock. We teach them how to be self sufficient and to be contributing and valuable citizens to their own countries. We do not prostelyze, and we are ever so careful how we answer questions about our faith.

Such wholistic mission efforts are very christ-like. Jesus not only preached/teached, he healed, and he delivered folk from demons.

We do NOT go against the host governments laws. Article of Faith 12: We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

While Romans 13 is certainly an appropriate reference here (be subject to authorities), the New Testament is also full of missionary efforts that ran counter to what the local authorities wanted. God's law trumps the laws of men, but when in doubt, usually it is possible to live for Christ and to do so in a lawful manner.

I knew a JW who told me that their Missionaries considered it a great honor to go to jail for prostelyzing in any country where they were told not to. She said that that is why they went there, and they would gladly die if need be by "Witnessing" to them.

I say they are right in this stance. Don't agree with their teachings--but admire their willingness to risk life and freedom for proclaiming what they perceive to be Jehovah's message.

[Guest MrsS]

I am just going to repeat this because I think it got lost amid my excessively long posts.

***Perhaps it would be prudent that when we explain church doctrine we include a link to such doctrine. If we are stating that it is OUR own interpretation, or how we see it ~ that we make it clear that it is our Own Personal Opinion.

[Ray]

Ray, I'm not sure if you're revising the claim that the Church's administrative, tactical, and otherwise practical decisions are all inspired, coming directly from Christ. That was the understanding I was seeking clarification on. The original topic of this string was missions strategy. You now seem to be addressing the issues of canon and modern-day prophetic offices, which may be a worthy topic, but might come across more clearly in a new post topic.

Tommy,

I am telling you that all of the official work done by the leaders and members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is done in accordance with revelation and inspiration received directly from Jesus Christ, and the “issues of canon and modern-day prophetic offices” are directly related to that.

Or in other words, if by “the Church's administrative, tactical, and otherwise practical decisions” you’re referring to the decisions which direct the work of leaders and members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, then Yes, I am saying that all of them are “inspired, coming directly from Christ… or in other words, all of them are authorized and approved through revelation the Church has received and continues to receive directly from God through Jesus Christ.

And to continue to try to help you understand our position, again, I’ll follow the counsel of MrsS and support this point with some official comments from our authorized leaders who are prophets and apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ … and you can then continue to wrestle with this issue and His words if you feel you must.

No person can read Section One of the Doctrine and Covenants, realizing that the Church accepts it as the word of the Lord, and ask why we send missionaries into all parts of the world. The responsibility, and a major one it is, falls squarely upon the membership of the Church, for “the voice of warning,” says the Lord, “shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days.” (D&C 1:4. Italics added.) Then the Lord adds this great promise: “And they shall go forth and none shall stay them, for I the Lord have commanded them.” (D&C 1:5) The revelation further states that all these things he has given unto his disciple-missionaries “to publish unto you, O inhabitants of the earth.” (D&C 1:6) After declaring that his voice is unto the ends of the earth, the Lord points out that he, “knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Junior, and spake unto him from heaven…” (D&C 1:17) The same as in all other dispensations, a means of escape, revealed through a prophet, is provided. Then the Lord emphasizes that he is “willing to make these things known unto all flesh” for he is “no respecter of persons.” (D&C 1:34-35) – from a discourse given by apostle and prophet Ezra Taft Benson entitled “Missionary Work: A Major Responsibility” given in the ‘Ensign’ magazine dated May 1974 on page 104

Who but the prophets of God could have foreseen the miracle of the rapid expansion of the work of the Lord? Truly, as the Lord foretold in section 88 of the Doctrine and Covenants, He is hastening His work in its time (see D&C 88:73).

I am inspired as I continue to understand more and more the depth and significance of the vision and inspiration the Prophet Joseph Smith received from heavenly messengers as he carefully laid in place the foundation stones of the restored church. After what he had experienced and knew, the Prophet Joseph Smith could boldly write in March of 1842:

“Our missionaries are going forth to different nations, … the Standard of Truth has been erected; … the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done” (History of the Church, 4:540). – from a discourse given by apostle and prophet David B. Haight entitled “Missionary Work: Our Responsibility” given in the ‘Ensign’ magazine dated November 1993 on page 61

Brethren, thank you for your faith. Thank you for your devotion. We are aware of the great trust which you place in us. We are aware of the sacred trust placed in us by the Lord. And He has likewise placed a sacred trust in each of you who holds His divine priesthood. As I have said before, we are all in this together. Each of us has his part in the building of this kingdom. How wonderful, how very satisfying it is to know that each of us can do something to strengthen this, the work of the Almighty.

It is true. It is our Father’s work. It is the church of our Redeemer. The priesthood which we hold is a very real and a very precious thing. I leave you my testimony, my love and my blessing, and my gratitude, in the name of Jesus Christ, amen. – from a discourse given by apostle and prophet Gordon B. Hinckley entitled “Of Missions, Temples, and Stewardships” in the ‘Ensign’ magazine dated November 1995 on page 51

And btw, you can find the full discourses from these prophets and apostles (and I recommend you study them), as well as those from many other prophets and apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, online at our official Church website at http://www.lds.org by doing a Search with the key words “missionary work” or the name of the published discourse.

… and remember: the point I was making is that the work we [LDS] are doing is authorized by Jesus Christ through direct revelation from Him, through His words to His living prophets and apostles today and the revelations they write for us...which is distinctly something different than what you and your leaders claim to receive and accept today in your groups... by your own open admission.

[Snow]

Tommy,

I am telling you that all of the official work done by the leaders and members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is done in accordance with revelation and inspiration received directly from Jesus Christ, and the “issues of canon and modern-day prophetic offices” are directly related to that.

PC,

I sure that I don't need to tell you but that's just not a true statement. If all official would were done under divine revelation and inspirations, then there would never be any mistakes or less than optimal choices made. While we believe that our leaders earnestly seek and recieve guidance, obviously they don't always get it or act on it correctly.

[prisonchaplain]

I am telling you that all of the official work done by the leaders and members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is done in accordance with revelation and inspiration received directly from Jesus Christ, and the “issues of canon and modern-day prophetic offices” are directly related to that.

Or in other words, if by “the Church's administrative, tactical, and otherwise practical decisions” you’re referring to the decisions which direct the work of leaders and members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, then Yes, I am saying that all of them are “inspired, coming directly from Christ… or in other words, all of them are authorized and approved through revelation the Church has received and continues to receive directly from God through Jesus Christ.

Ray, Snow, and I believe MrsS have both confirmed my belief that you do not realize what I am asking you, and how you are responding. They both are quick to say that all decisions that come out of LDS Headquarters are not necessarily perfect, without error, or, in hindsight, could not have been done in a different and more effective manner. Called missionaries do come home early. Occasional wise investments may not pan out perfectly. There may be the occasional typo in Ensign. To admit such is not a retreat from your general argument about authority, etc. Quite frankly, if you really do believe EVERY SINGLE DECISION, NO MATTER HOW MINOR, OBSCURE, OR INCONSEQUENTIAL comes directly from the Christ, then I'd guess yours is the kind of faith that is outside the LDS mainstream.

… and remember: the point I was making is that the work we [LDS] are doing is authorized by Jesus Christ through direct revelation from Him, through His words to His living prophets and apostles today and the revelations they write for us...which is distinctly something different than what you and your leaders claim to receive and accept today in your groups... by your own open admission.

Do I understand you to mean: Since the LDS is authorized by God as His restored Church, and our leaders are his authorized prophets and representatives, then however we do missions IS Christ's way. However any other group does it, no matter how apparently successful, is a less godly approach.

If so, quite frankly, there's not much left to discuss, eh?

PC, I sure that I don't need to tell you but that's just not a true statement.

Correct, I think I see it. Psst! You might want to whisper this to Bro. Ray.

If all official would were done under divine revelation and inspirations, then there would never be any mistakes or less than optimal choices made. While we believe that our leaders earnestly seek and recieve guidance, obviously they don't always get it or act on it correctly.

Such a stance might ultimately make the authority claims of the LDS church at least plausible, and certainly leaves more room for discussion. Quite frankly, if I saw that Muslims were gaining a great number of converts, I'd at least want to know what practical approaches they are using. B)

[Ray]

Do I understand you to mean: Since the LDS is authorized by God as His restored Church, and our leaders are his authorized prophets and representatives, then however we do missions IS Christ's way. However any other group does it, no matter how apparently successful, is a less godly approach.

Close, but not quite. I’m saying that our Lord has authorized His prophets and apostles to proclaim the gospel to the world and authorize other people (missionaries) to help them in their work, and that all the guidance necessary to make the decisions about who to authorize and where those authorized persons should go and what those authorized persons should proclaim is given through direct revelation from God through Jesus Christ, both in scripture and personal revelation given daily to prophets and apostles who are authorized to speak and act for God.

But no, I’m not saying that someone who is authorized to proclaim the gospel (a missionary) may not at some later date do something which would lead his or her leaders to send him or her home, thus ending their authorized mission, or that a missionary can’t at some later date just decide to go home without any authorization from his or her leaders, or that a missionary can’t just decide to proclaim something other than that which he or she has been authorized to proclaim… or that those who control financial investments for the Church can’t do something to compromise their integrity and thus cause the Church to lose some money if the money is invested in a company and the company goes bankrupt because of the bad decisions of someone in charge of making financial decisions for that company, or that, in general, people can’t just decide to do something contrary to the will of our Lord … because our Lord never has and our Lord never will revoke anyone’s power to make their own decisions in opposition to His will… but as I said, our Lord does make His will very clear through revelation to all His prophets and apostles of His Church every day, as well as through His revelations He has given to His other prophets and apostles in the past who are now dead and speak only through scripture.

Now there, is that plain enough for you?

If not, ask God, because that is the truth, no matter what anyone but God has to say.

Heh, and you still missed the main point I was making.

I am saying that no other group, or organized body of religious leaders or followers, aside from those in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, receives directions from our Lord in doing their missionary work or is authorized to do any other work for God… and thus nobody else is “godly” in doing what they are doing… because it is not godly to just assume God’s authority simply because other people have or had His authority.

Or in other words, Tommy, you and your leaders are doing the work of Man while assuming to be God, because you are assuming to have God’s authority…. while I and other LDS and anyone else who knows the truth knows for a fact that God has not authorized you or your leaders.

And btw, it might do you some good to read Doctrine & Covenants section 1, or again, while considering it to be the word of our Lord.

... and don't expect to hear any more about this from me.

(heh, edited repeatedly to try to improve my "tone" while trying to make my thoughts more clear in words)

[prisonchaplain]

But no, I’m not saying that someone who is authorized to proclaim the gospel (a missionary) may not at some later date do something which would lead his or her leaders to send him or her home, thus ending their authorized mission, or that a missionary can’t at some later date just decide to go home without any authorization from his or her leaders, or that a missionary can’t just decide to proclaim something other than that which he or she has been authorized to proclaim… or that those who control financial investments for the Church can’t do something to compromise their integrity and thus cause the Church to lose some money if the money is invested in a company and the company goes bankrupt because of the bad decisions of someone in charge of making financial decisions for that company, or that, in general, people can’t just decide to do something contrary to the will of our Lord … because our Lord never has and our Lord never will revoke anyone’s power to make their own decisions in opposition to His will… but as I said, our Lord does make His will very clear through revelation to all His prophets and apostles of His Church every day, as well as through His revelations He has given to His other prophets and apostles in the past who are now dead and speak only through scripture.

Now there, is that plain enough for you?

I think so. Here's my follow-up question: If Scriptures and revelations tell us all that is needed, does this mean that church leaders might not look for ways to apply the principles of those revelations in manners not specifically spelled out. For example, I'm told that the LDS has english-conversation teachers placed in China. Clearly, there's no Scripture that specifically suggests using foreign-language teaching as a means of establishing a presence in other lands. I suppose it is possible that one of the Church leaders could have received a revelation from God to do this. But, my guess is it is more likely that they came upon this idea, prayed, and sensed that it was okay, and even pleasing to God, that they do so. In other words, the source of the idea might not be Scripture or revelation, but there may have been a revelatory confirmation or "go ahead." If this scenario I've painted is plausible, then we can continue discussion missions strategies. If, on the other hand, all approaches must originate in revelation or direct Scripture sources, then we'd all better simply pray, and give up any such studies.

Heh, and you still missed the main point I was making.

I am saying that no other group, or organized body of religious leaders or followers, aside from those in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, receives directions from our Lord in doing their missionary work or is authorized to do any other work for God… and thus nobody else is “godly” in doing what they are doing… because it is not godly to just assume God’s authority simply because other people have or had His authority.

Okay, which is it. I've heard two different understandings of non-LDS Christian work.

1. Non-LDS Christians are doing good in the work they do as far as they have received God's truth, but they are missing important revelations.

2. Non-LDS Christians are NOT doing good, because they have no authority from God to do any work on his behalf.

... and don't expect to hear any more about this from me.

(heh, edited repeatedly to try to improve my "tone" while trying to make my thoughts more clear in words)

Bold faced sentence screams louder than followup one.

[Ray]

the source of <an> idea might not be Scripture or revelation, but there may have been a revelatory confirmation or "go ahead."

Heh, how is a revelatory confirmation from God not a revelation from God?

And why wouldn’t you consider those thoughts to be scripture if you simply took time to write them down?

Okay, which is it. I've heard two different understandings of non-LDS Christian work.

1. Non-LDS Christians are doing good in the work they do as far as they have received God's truth, but they are missing important revelations.

2. Non-LDS Christians are NOT doing good, because they have no authority from God to do any work on his behalf.

I didn’t say you aren’t doing anything good. In fact, I’ve told you several times that you are doing a LOT of good works. But the work that you’re doing is the work of mere Man, and is not the work of God.

Or in other words, (and I know I’ve said this to you before, in other words), when we do any work, that work is our work, unless we have been authorized to do that work by others … when our work then becomes our work and their work, because we are doing that work with their authorization … but we can’t simply assume that whatever we do is authorized by others, including God… even if God has authorized other people to do that work at some other time in history, or now.

Or in other words, to put this in an example for you:

You have received authority to do your "job" by the State of Washington and the leaders of your “church”, and I cannot assume to have authority to do that, even if I know how to do whatever you can do just as well or even better than you can.

Or in other words, if you want to receive authority to do work for God, you must receive that authority from Him or from other people He has authorized to authorize you … and you can't receive that authority simply by knowing other people were authorized to do the work that they did for God.

Bold faced sentence screams louder than followup one.

Yes, but God speaks to us in a “still, small voice”, so I’m trying to be as quiet as I can.

... and the fact that God may speak to you and tell you the truth doesn't give you any authority from God.

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

Tommy,

I am telling you that all of the official work done by the leaders and members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is done in accordance with revelation and inspiration received directly from Jesus Christ, and the “issues of canon and modern-day prophetic offices” are directly related to that.

PC,

I sure that I don't need to tell you but that's just not a true statement. If all official would were done under divine revelation and inspirations, then there would never be any mistakes or less than optimal choices made. While we believe that our leaders earnestly seek and recieve guidance, obviously they don't always get it or act on it correctly.

Word to the Wise:

Proper interpretation is very important, and it is not good to find fault for words...

...or in other words...

It is very important that we seek inspiration (and even ask questions) to know how to truly interpret someone's thoughts from their words...

...or in other words...

You didn't understand me, Snow, although you thought you truly did, while reading what I said in my words.

[Lindy]

I am saying that no other group, or organized body of religious leaders or followers, aside from those in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, receives directions from our Lord in doing their missionary work or is authorized to do any other work for God… and thus nobody else is “godly” in doing what they are doing… because it is not godly to just assume God’s authority simply because other people have or had His authority

Ray, I understand what you are saying...because I understand what you are saying......but so many who are not LDS cannot understand the "nobody else is "godly" in doing what they are doing" They are doing what they do BECAUSE they think it's of God...or for God.... and it's hard to have others tell them that it isn't.

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may. That is the dictates of their own conscience....

we just have a different way of looking at things.... that is right for us.

my two cents

[Ray]

Yes, we [LDS] do allow other people to worship "whatever" or "however" or "wherever" they want to worship, but there is certainly nothing wrong with helping other people find the truth when we see they don't know it or how to find it...and I believe God is well pleased when we do.

... but I certainly wouldn't suggest that others simply believe what I tell them, or what we [LDS] or anyone else (but God) tells them either... because the only way to know the truth is to personally ask God, who will then help to assure them of the truth...

...and if they don't accept that, then it's still up to them, but I'll still do what I can to help them... in the best way I know from all the ways I can think of, while asking God to help me to help them.

For instance, if I was talking to some people who said God is some sort of a mysterious blob who floats around in space, except for Jesus who has a body, I'd try to help teach them the truth... by either asking them why they believe that or trying to tell them how to find out if what they believe is really the truth... and I'll continue to try to teach them until they stopped listening to me... and I believe God would do the same for them too.

But yes, I know, some people take the truth to be "hard", but those who really want it and are willing to look for it will love us... because they'll know we helped teach them about how they can find it in the only way we can really find out. :)