Why Would Anyone Who Believed In Christ..

[Cal]

Originally posted by Peace+Mar 7 2004, 10:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Mar 7 2004, 10:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Cal@Mar 7 2004, 06:13 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Mar 7 2004, 05:34 PM

IOWs...my point is....I believe they are homo/lesbian due to desperateness....not first choice. I believe it started with them in the early years...just pre-teen.

Peace--Sorry, but I would really encourage you to go further than just the few gays you have known and consult carefully controled studies that show CLEARLY that "gayness" is not just socially induced. In fact, the studies show that most is NOT. You may consult the Minnesota Twin studies, Australian Twin studies as well as the anatomical studies that prove without much doubt that there is indeed an ORGANIC basis for gender preference.

You have said you believe in reason. If you do, then do some "homework" and see what you find out.

My experience with gays has been the opposite of yours. They have told me that they new they were different since they can remember. Of course there will be some people who experiment with homosexuality who are not really gay. But, the gays who remain gay there whole lives do so against tremendous social presure to the contrary.

Who in their right mind would CHOSE that life style if it were not inborn?

I agree I should do more studying....but I really don't want to.

But I disagree...lonelyness cause people to do all sorts of crazy things. Desperation for acceptence does too...who in their right mind (emotionally speaking) would go on drugs or drunk binges?

Since when was homosexuality addictive? That's a new one. The comparison is not a valid one.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Cal+Mar 8 2004, 10:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Mar 8 2004, 10:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Peace@Mar 7 2004, 10:23 PM

Originally posted by -Cal@Mar 7 2004, 06:13 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Mar 7 2004, 05:34 PM

IOWs...my point is....I believe they are homo/lesbian due to desperateness....not first choice. I believe it started with them in the early years...just pre-teen.

Peace--Sorry, but I would really encourage you to go further than just the few gays you have known and consult carefully controled studies that show CLEARLY that "gayness" is not just socially induced. In fact, the studies show that most is NOT. You may consult the Minnesota Twin studies, Australian Twin studies as well as the anatomical studies that prove without much doubt that there is indeed an ORGANIC basis for gender preference.

You have said you believe in reason. If you do, then do some "homework" and see what you find out.

My experience with gays has been the opposite of yours. They have told me that they new they were different since they can remember. Of course there will be some people who experiment with homosexuality who are not really gay. But, the gays who remain gay there whole lives do so against tremendous social presure to the contrary.

Who in their right mind would CHOSE that life style if it were not inborn?

I agree I should do more studying....but I really don't want to.

But I disagree...lonelyness cause people to do all sorts of crazy things. Desperation for acceptence does too...who in their right mind (emotionally speaking) would go on drugs or drunk binges?

Since when was homosexuality addictive? That's a new one. The comparison is not a valid one.

Many behaviors are just that...addictive....especially if it involves sex.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Snow+Mar 8 2004, 10:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 8 2004, 10:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--ExMormon-Jason@Mar 8 2004, 07:36 PM

It's interesting that you feel that Brigham Young had more authority than, say, anyone else after Smith's death.  Since BY was not ordained by Joseph Smith to take over, how do you justify the authority? 

Jason,

You should know full well how we justify it. We decided, ultimately, that the keys resided with the 12. Further, we, as a matter of faith, believe that the mantle of prophethood fell upon Brigham. Additionally, we believe that history has shown the decision to be the correct one.

Do you honestly expect this board to believe that there haven't been dozens of splinter churches break away from the Brighamites?

Not the same thing is it. The CoC is a splinter from the various splinters of the church of Joseph and has continued to splinter up till present. The CoJCoLDS has an unbroken line and no schisms. Sure there are individual apostacys but nothing of any import in the big scheme of things. Different deal.

That is a real simplification of what happened, Snow. Very misleading. I posted in the not so distant past the truth when you made those claims before, using real historical evidence.

"We decided" is squat when thousands of people saw Joseph bless and designate his son for that position.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 8 2004, 11:04 PM

IOWs...my point is....I believe they are homo/lesbian due to desperateness....not first choice. I believe it started with them in the early years...just pre-teen.

Peace--Sorry, but I would really encourage you to go further than just the few gays you have known and consult carefully controled studies that show CLEARLY that "gayness" is not just socially induced. In fact, the studies show that most is NOT. You may consult the Minnesota Twin studies, Australian Twin studies as well as the anatomical studies that prove without much doubt that there is indeed an ORGANIC basis for gender preference.

You have said you believe in reason. If you do, then do some "homework" and see what you find out.

My experience with gays has been the opposite of yours. They have told me that they new they were different since they can remember. Of course there will be some people who experiment with homosexuality who are not really gay. But, the gays who remain gay there whole lives do so against tremendous social presure to the contrary.

Who in their right mind would CHOSE that life style if it were not inborn?

I agree I should do more studying....but I really don't want to.

But I disagree...lonelyness cause people to do all sorts of crazy things. Desperation for acceptence does too...who in their right mind (emotionally speaking) would go on drugs or drunk binges?

Since when was homosexuality addictive? That's a new one. The comparison is not a valid one.

Many behaviors are just that...addictive....especially if it involves sex.

Addictions have physical symptoms of withdrawl--that is the clinical definition at least. The I have never heard of a physical symptom of 'withdrawal' from gayness.

The discussion has missed the point, at this point. People don't fail to stop being gay because they are habituated to it, they fail to stop being gay because they never STARTED. That is, they were NEVER NOT GAY. They were gay from the moment they were born, just like you and I were heterosexual from birth. If you had read the studies I refered to above you would understand that gayness is a genetically influenced trait in most gays. (sure there are always going to be some people who just experiment with alternative life styles---were not talking about them)

So to refer to gayness as an "addiction" from which one can be rehabilitated is erroneous. You don't get addicted to it YOU ARE it. It is not really even a behavior, it is an inborn physical condition for a lot of gays.

I have no doubt it can be a LEARNED behavior, but that begs the question. The real issue is that many if not most gays never had a choice about being gay, they knew what they were from the time they can remember anything.

I would challenge you to interview a large number of gays, as these studies have done, and come to any other conclusion.

[Guest Starsky]

I still say it is addictive...and the withdrawl of anything can be lessened, even eliminated if it is replaced by something else that does almost the same thing.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 9 2004, 06:07 PM

I still say it is addictive...and the withdrawl of anything can be lessened, even eliminated if it is replaced by something else that does almost the same thing.

You miss the point. The definition of addiction INCLUDES the element of withdrawl symptoms. It doesn't matter that those symptoms can be lessened; the point is they EXIST. What are the symptoms for GAYNESS WITHDRAWL?

Did you read the rest of my post or are you ignoring it?

[Guest Starsky]

The symptoms are depression, guilt, and emotional withdrawl.

No I didn't yet read all of your post...and no I am not ignoring it. Give me some time will you?

[Guest Starsky]

I don't believe those studies...I think they are biased and probably made by gays themselves...

I don't believe there is such a thing as a baby who is born gay.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 9 2004, 06:15 PM

The symptoms are depression, guilt, and emotional withdrawl.

No I didn't yet read all of your post...and no I am not ignoring it. Give me some time will you?

Those are NOT physical symptoms. Addictions are defined as resulting in PHYSICAL withdrawl symptoms---ie alcoholism withdrawl, heroin withdrawl, amphetimine withdrawl ALL have PHYSICAL withdrawl symptoms---sever ones that can even be fatal---

Behaviors that do not have physical symptoms are simply habits of varying degrees of severity. Many are very difficult to break and can certainly ruin a person's life, but they are not technically addictions in the clinical sense.

Are we communicating yet? :)

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Cal+Mar 9 2004, 06:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Mar 9 2004, 06:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Mar 9 2004, 06:15 PM

The symptoms are depression, guilt, and emotional withdrawl.

No I didn't yet read all of your post...and no I am not ignoring it. Give me some time will you?

Those are NOT physical symptoms. Addictions are defined as resulting in PHYSICAL withdrawl symptoms---ie alcoholism withdrawl, heroin withdrawl, amphetimine withdrawl ALL have PHYSICAL withdrawl symptoms---sever ones that can even be fatal---

Behaviors that do not have physical symptoms are simply habits of varying degrees of severity. Many are very difficult to break and can certainly ruin a person's life, but they are not technically addictions in the clinical sense.

Are we communicating yet? :)

Not necessarily...unless it is a physical addiction and not an emotional one.

Your focus is too narrow Cal....

Emotional addiction has withdrawl symptoms which also can lead to death. A very depressed person stops eating, or commits suiside. A guilty one also...

Like I said...there is many different kinds of addiction. Maybe you could take this discussion up with a therapist.

My best friend works at the Utah state hospital....let her tell you about addictions on the emotional level, and the mental level....etc.

[Cal]

The symptoms are depression, guilt, and emotional withdrawl.

No I didn't yet read all of your post...and no I am not ignoring it. Give me some time will you?

Those are NOT physical symptoms. Addictions are defined as resulting in PHYSICAL withdrawl symptoms---ie alcoholism withdrawl, heroin withdrawl, amphetimine withdrawl ALL have PHYSICAL withdrawl symptoms---sever ones that can even be fatal---

Behaviors that do not have physical symptoms are simply habits of varying degrees of severity. Many are very difficult to break and can certainly ruin a person's life, but they are not technically addictions in the clinical sense.

Are we communicating yet? :)

Not necessarily...unless it is a physical addiction and not an emotional one.

Your focus is too narrow Cal....

Emotional addiction has withdrawl symptoms which also can lead to death. A very depressed person stops eating, or commits suiside. A guilty one also...

Like I said...there is many different kinds of addiction. Maybe you could take this discussion up with a therapist.

My best friend works at the Utah state hospital....let her tell you about addictions on the emotional level, and the mental level....etc.

What we are disagreeing over is the DEFINITION of the term "addiction". Clinically, quick withdrawl from an addiction ALWAYS includes physical symtoms. Depression is NOT physical symptom, it is an emotional condition that CAN lead to physical symptoms. By physical symptom one means things like heart failure, liver failure, kidney failure---direct physical damage to organs or tissues that result from a precipitous withdrawl from substance abuses.

Withdrawl from BEHAVIORS may result in depression, and emotional stress, but it is the depression and stress ITSELF that leads to the other physical manifestations, NOT the cessation of the BEHAVIOR itself. Do you see the distinction?

Are we communicating yet! :)

[Guest Starsky]

I think you are working over the semantics differently...the end result is the same...and I believe that any physical manifestations which result from an addiction....whether physical or emotional...is an addiction still and withdrawl symptoms...still.

So tell me...are we communicating yet?

[srm]

Curvette said,

I think a parent should counsel the child, look at all possiblilities that may be causing the child to feel that they are homosexual.  Children need to understand that having homosexual attraction during adolescence is completely normal and does not mean that they are necessarily homosexual.

This is a very important point. With society as it is today where the Gay lifestyle is not only accepted but encouraged...a young person may have those feelings that you describe and be sucked into the lifestyle. Young people who have 'gay' mannerisms or an efeminate voice...people will try to convince them that they are gay, when they are not.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 9 2004, 06:38 PM

I think you are working over the semantics differently...the end result is the same...and I believe that any physical manifestations which result from an addiction....whether physical or emotional...is an addiction still and withdrawl symptoms...still.

So tell me...are we communicating yet?

Clearly we are not. And yes, it does make a difference. You have asserted that gayness is an addiction. Is your sexuality an addiction? Is your being a female an addiction? Is one's simple attraction to the opposite sex an addiction?

Likewise,, it matters a lot whether gayness is simply a behavior that one gets habituated to (or addicted to, as you so erroneous suppose). Habits can be broken. Even addictions (which does not apply here) can be overcome. Most lifelong gayness is NEITHER of these. It is a GENETIC predisposition to attraction to the same sex, just as hetero is a GENETIC predisposition. This and other behaviors can be learned, but they are just that, LEARNED. The inborn, genetic gayness that most gays deal with is NOT something you can wish away with the SELF-RIGHTOUS WAND OF RELIGIOUS INTOLERANCE. It is there to stay in most gays as much as their eye color any other trait. You can force them to wear "sunglasses", but you will never change what is underneath.

I say, leave them alone, let them live their lives. You don't have to live with them, you don't have to marry them. Your children are not going to become gay by being around them. Stop calling them sinners, heathen, and depraved. God made them--who are we to tell God his creations are sinful? God never said it, ignorant, self-rightous religious bigots say it, and insist that the scriptures (the same ones that condone slavery) say it.

Well, did I beat around the bush enough? I know, you are asking, "why don't you ever say what you mean"?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Cal@Mar 11 2004, 07:47 PM

It is a GENETIC predisposition to attraction to the same sex, just as hetero is a GENETIC predisposition.

Maybe, maybe not but your having faith that it is so and saying doesn't necessarily make it true.

[Guest Starsky]

Cal...it is just your way of seeing them....I believe...just like the Darwinism has been proven wrong so many times and so many ways...that gayism as a genetic thing will also be found to be a fraud to accomadate some people in their perversion.

It all comes down to whether or not truth will prevail.

Well, did I beat around the bush enough? I know, you are asking, "why don't you ever say what you mean"? 

I think you say what you mean...and this time i clearly understood it...I just don't happen to agree. :)

[Guest Yediyd]

THE FIRST EPISTLE OF PAUL THE APOSTLE TO

TIMOTHY

CHAPTER 1

Exhortation to teach true doctrine only—Christ came to save repentant sinners.

1 PAUL, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly dedifying which is in faith: so do.

5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;

19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Yes, and don't forget what God said in Romans chapter 1..."men with men...recieving in themselves the recompence of their error which was meet." God GAVEUP on these three times in Romans chapter one. Check it out.

[Traveler]

I know with that intro....the anti's will flock in droves...but I really am speaking only to those who believe in God or at least say they do.

I would just like to ask ...why would those who believe in God, the Bible, and it's teachings ever believe being tolerant and accepting of the 'gay' life style is a good thing?

What you are doing is supporting 'sinners' in their sin. How is that helping them? How is supporting 'sin' worshipping Christ who suffered for all those sins?

How do you validate your 'christianity' when supporting, accepting, tolerating....the sinner ...and infact facilitating or at least giving strength to their committing sin...by trying to remove 'social' markers/laws which try to descourage 'sin'?

I just don't get it.

If you truly wanted what was 'best' for those gays...you would do everything in your power to help them not be gay...

Unless you really don't believe there is punishment for sin...and if that is so...then you really don't believe the scriptures or in God.

Those who truly 'hate' gays will support their sinful life style and say they are good people...etc...

But those who truly love them as brothers and sisters will not suppport the lie.

I do not think we need to single out gays. I believe the point is simple. If one is to believe in Christ as the savior then we must believe that Christ will save us from or sins - if we forsake our sins. And that is the message Christians should present to the world. However, if someone does not want to be saved from the sins of this world (what ever sin of the world they find personally attractive) - why would they think about coming unto Christ?

It is not now nor has it ever been about Christians accepting someone that has sinned and seeks a new life - it is about us all seeking a new (different) life.

The Traveler