Do you think this will happen?

[dfavors15]

Hey, I have a question, and it's rather scary for me. I have been engaged since December 8th, 2010. This week I confessed that we had broken the law of chastity to my student bishop. I am attending BYU-Idaho, but my ecclesiastical endorsement has been pulled. She is not a student and is a convert for a little over a year. We have been together for two years. So she is in less trouble. The problem I'm having is someone I knew did the same thing and he had a stake disciplinary council. Since he was an elder. ( which I am not an elder. I am old enough to be but, was never ordained) I will be having a disciplinary council as well, only it is a ward one. But, the problem is this is not my first time with this problem, same girl and everything. My friend who went through that process was told to leave his girlfriend. He was also excommunicated. This scares me that my Bishop my ask me to do something similar. The problems I have with this are...

-Were engaged

-She maybe pregnant

-The bishop already told me we should work towards a temple marriage

-Her bishop said we should get civilly married (which we don't want to)

Could he actually tell me once we get in there to break up? My dad is in the stake presidency back home and he said that in his handbook they can tell people to be removed from the thing that is causing them to sin. After he told me this it scarred me so much. Anyone have any idea on this?

Thanks

[Guest jengilbrat]

That would be up to the bishop, however, since you are engagged, I would doubt it very much. And if pregnant....I would really doubt it he would want you to break up, especially since you were already planning on getting married.

I am not in any place of authority, but if it were me, I would get married, civially, if she is pregnant, since you are likely to have to wait a year before a temple marriage.

[NeuroTypical]

I have been engaged since December

...

this is this is not my first time with this problem, same girl and everything.

...

-She maybe pregnant

-The bishop already told me we should work towards a temple marriage

-Her bishop said we should get civilly married (which we don't want to)

Since you are engaged, I wouldn't worry about anyone telling you to break up. The church is big on having folks move from premarital sex and living in sin-type situations, to covenentally binding married-type situations.

But you can probably stop worrying about a temple sealing until sometime in 2012. If she's good enough for your bed and maybe make a baby with, she ought to be good enough to wear your ring. Get married.

[slamjet]

First off, you don't want to get married civilly, but in the temple? and she may be pregnant?

If she is indeed pregnant, you need to worry about how you are going to take care of your responsibilities with her and your child. No civil marriage because you want to be married in the temple, or not at all is running away from your problems. You need to sit down with yourself, her, and your bishop and come up with a mature plan and path to handling this adult problem you created.

Get married civilly, then get sealed in the temple when you're worthy to. Stop looking so far ahead in time when you need to be in the here and now. Let the Church do what it needs to do, you do what you need to do to deal with this and get back in line with the Gospel.

[rameumptom]

The bishop will probably encourage you to get married soon. That you are not a MP holder or endowed will make things easier. I'm guessing there will either be formal probation or disfellowshipped, depending on what the Spirit tells the bishop. In either case, get married soon, so you do not have to worry about the law of chastity any longer. Then work on your repentance and getting things back to where they need to be.

The civil marriage is to ensure your chastity and the protection of any child, if she is pregnant. It will take more than a year to prepare for the temple anyway, so you may as well marry now and reduce your chances of further sins and problems. Listen to the bishop in this advice.

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

Hey, I have a question, and it's rather scary for me. I have been engaged since December 8th, 2010. This week I confessed that we had broken the law of chastity to my student bishop. I am attending BYU-Idaho, but my ecclesiastical endorsement has been pulled. She is not a student and is a convert for a little over a year. We have been together for two years. So she is in less trouble. The problem I'm having is someone I knew did the same thing and he had a stake disciplinary council. Since he was an elder. ( which I am not an elder. I am old enough to be but, was never ordained) I will be having a disciplinary council as well, only it is a ward one. But, the problem is this is not my first time with this problem, same girl and everything. My friend who went through that process was told to leave his girlfriend. He was also excommunicated. This scares me that my Bishop my ask me to do something similar. The problems I have with this are...

-Were engaged

-She maybe pregnant

-The bishop already told me we should work towards a temple marriage

-Her bishop said we should get civilly married (which we don't want to)

Could he actually tell me once we get in there to break up? My dad is in the stake presidency back home and he said that in his handbook they can tell people to be removed from the thing that is causing them to sin. After he told me this it scarred me so much. Anyone have any idea on this?

Thanks

This is honestly up to the particular bishop himself. Since the disciplinary will be handled on a ward level, then that may mean you will only have to be disfellowshipped.

However, do not be surprised that your Bishop may encourage a civil marriage as well. In order to get into the Temple, you will have to abide by all laws and commandments. Since you have not done so and are going to be disciplined for it, the temple venture maybe off for a year or so.

The true honest advise here is to have a civil marriage (regardless of whether or not she is pregnant), and then start working on your repentance process as a husband and wife.

My wife and I actually lived together when I was very inactive and she was wanting to go back to church. We had a wonderful bishop who saw that we operated as a family, and understood our reasonings behind moving in (was not because we wanted to live together, it was more of an issue of pooling our economic resources together since we both could not afford a place of our own separately). However, we both are quite a bit older than you might be.

She had gone through hers, and I have gone through mine. We now are both very active in Church, serve in a calling, and we were advised by our bishop that the time to be married was sooner than we planned. We sacrificed a thousand dollar deposit to be married in Las Vegas, and ended up having a very small ceremony at the ward we previously attended. It was not what we wanted, however, because we followed the council of our Bishop, we have been blessed in so many ways that we are not able to count at the moment.

So, is there a good chance that you maybe excommunicated? I honestly believe that a person is excommunicated because of the seriousness of the issue. If you were married and you were committing an adultry and it has been going on for the past year or so, then most likely you will be. If it was a one time thing, then most likely, you will be disfellowshipped, maybe even put on probation.

No one really knows, only the Lord and the Bishop.

[dfavors15]

you guys are so helpful. I wouldn't mind getting married civily, she really wants to be married in the temple since she has never been in one before. But, I think we will all talk about it.

[slamjet]

you guys are so helpful. I wouldn't mind getting married civily, she really wants to be married in the temple since she has never been in one before. But, I think we will all talk about it.

Look, been there, done that. I got married civilly and later sealed in the Temple. It's just as beautiful as a marriage. And my (ex)wife liked it much better because we got to invite who we wanted without the pressure of everyone expecting to be there.

Plus she needs to realize she's not worthy to do so either. It takes two to tango and she needs to realize this. She's in the same boat as you.

[prophetofdoom]

Get a civil marriage. The church can't tell you not to do it. If you have already been having sex regularly.. it will not be reasonable to stop for a year to get a temple marriage..

The church encourages temple marriage... but the hand was already in the cookie jar my friend..

[dahlia]

Interesting thread. I guess I am still struggling with helping people to overcome their problems by keeping them in touch with good people as opposed to shunning them. So, help me out here with these scenarios:

1. A person breaks the LOC once. Go to bishop or confess and repent to God?

2. 2 people are living together outside of marriage. One or both are continuing to go to church. If the bishop finds out they aren't married, will they be disfellowshiped? Not allowed to take the sacrament?

3. 2 people are dating and having sex. How would anyone know what they were doing? Are LDS people so filled with guilt that they go to the bishop over every little thing in their personal lives? Would the people in this scenario be excommunicated?

I just think that people should be allowed to go to church and even take the sacrament as they work through their issues. The more people participate in the church, the more likely they are to abide by the church's teachings, to feel comfortable, and not feel like they should leave the church because they have sinned and repented.

Maybe it's because I'm a (very) adult convert. I understand that breaking the LOC is wrong, but I don't understand the paroxysms of guilt that I see on these threads and this need to tell the bishop about every aspect of one's personal life.

If I was in the OP's situation, it would seem that the answer is to get married now, even if the girlfriend wanted a temple wedding. Even this newbie doesn't think that 'I've never been in a temple' is the reason for a temple wedding. I would confess to Heavenly Father that we'd been living in a way not in accord with the LOC, repent, and move on, having corrected the problem. Why bring in the bishop?

Considering all this talk about disfellowshiping and excommunication - why would anyone bring their problems to the bishop?

[slamjet]

Dahlia, I looked up the question of when should we go confessing to the Bishop and I posted what I discovered here in this post in another thread.

Sexual sins all need to be confessed to the Bishop. I spoke to my Stake President about this because I felt the need to let him know of something that happened with me about four years ago. What he told me was that confession should be done do begin the process of repentance, but also at the end of the process of repentance.

As for living together, I know of one couple who was living together. They became active again and were later married civilly. There was no "discipline" enacted that I know of because they set the date and made it happen.

As for the Sacrament, I would venture to say that we are permitted to take it so long as we are striving and trying to do our best. If we had to be perfect, no one would be able to partake of it. However, there are times when worthiness is really an issue and one should abstain from the sacrament as a matter of course and respect for the alms.

Don't know if this helps, but I do understand where you are coming from and I would only add that we, as a church, strive to be as understanding and compassionate as we can. But there are some indiscretions that need to be dealt with in order to properly be worthy to participate in the ordinances of the Church.

[Guest]

Considering all this talk about disfellowshiping and excommunication - why would anyone bring their problems to the bishop?

Because, dahlia, this is not about the bishop or how other people look at you. This is about your covenants with God and how God looks at you. The path to repentance is through your bishop.

You don't go to the bishop so you can get disfellowed. You go to the bishop so that you can start that path to repentance. If disfellowship is the way for you to get back to Heavenly Father, that's the route you need to take. No way around it. Consequences and all...

[Dravin]

I just think that people should be allowed to go to church and even take the sacrament as they work through their issues. The more people participate in the church, the more likely they are to abide by the church's teachings, to feel comfortable, and not feel like they should leave the church because they have sinned and repented.

1. Everyone is allowed and encouraged to come to church. Members with temple recommends, members without temple recommends, disfellowshiped members, excommunicated members (that's kind of an oxymoron isn't it?), and non-members. Unless you are doing something like brandishing a gun at people you are welcome to come to Church. That excommunicated members aren't welcome at church is a misconception with some legs but it's an idea contrary to what the Savior would have us do. The following verse is talking about forbiding the sacrament and excommunication:

32 Nevertheless, ye shall not cast him out of your synagogues, or your places of worship, for unto such shall ye continue to minister; for ye know not but what they will return and repent, and come unto me with full purpose of heart, and I shall heal them; and ye shall be the means of bringing salvation unto them.

2. The reason people are told by their Bishop not to partake of the sacrament is this:

28 And now behold, this is the commandment which I give unto you, that ye shall not suffer any one knowingly to partake of my flesh and blood unworthily, when ye shall minister it;

29 For whoso eateth and drinketh my flesh and blood unworthily eateth and drinketh damnation to his soul; therefore if ye know that a man is unworthy to eat and drink of my flesh and blood ye shall forbid him.

People aren't told by their Bishop not to partake of the sacrament to shun them or to 'punish' them but to prevent them from eating and drinking damnation to their soul.

Edited March 10, 2011 by Dravin

[rameumptom]

Interesting thread. I guess I am still struggling with helping people to overcome their problems by keeping them in touch with good people as opposed to shunning them. So, help me out here with these scenarios:

1. A person breaks the LOC once. Go to bishop or confess and repent to God?

Go to bishop, so he can help you in your repentance process.

2. 2 people are living together outside of marriage. One or both are continuing to go to church. If the bishop finds out they aren't married, will they be disfellowshiped? Not allowed to take the sacrament?

Depends upon how active they have been, how advanced they have been in their activity (gone to temple, ordained to Melch Priesthood, etc), etc.

3. 2 people are dating and having sex. How would anyone know what they were doing? Are LDS people so filled with guilt that they go to the bishop over every little thing in their personal lives? Would the people in this scenario be excommunicated?

We never know who is or isn't sinning. It is up to the individual to repent, and for serious sins, it requires not only repenting to the Lord, but seeking forgiveness of the Church through the bishop. Not all are excommunicated. All details are taken into consideration, and the Spirit guides the bishop in the final decision.

I just think that people should be allowed to go to church and even take the sacrament as they work through their issues. The more people participate in the church, the more likely they are to abide by the church's teachings, to feel comfortable, and not feel like they should leave the church because they have sinned and repented.

Paul warns us in the Bible not to partake of the Sacrament unworthily. The Bishop holds the keys to the ordinances of the Aaronic Priesthood, and it is his responsibility to ensure all are partaking it worthily. This hopefully helps induce true repentance in the person.

Maybe it's because I'm a (very) adult convert. I understand that breaking the LOC is wrong, but I don't understand the paroxysms of guilt that I see on these threads and this need to tell the bishop about every aspect of one's personal life.

I also don't think we need to tell the bishop about every aspect of our personal life. The keys and laws of the Aaronic Priesthood bring us into the realm of a terrestrial glory or righteousness. One who breaks the LoC is not living up to that law, but is living on a telestial level. Technically, to be a member, one must live a terrestrial level law. It is not a matter of guilt, but a matter of salvation and keeping the Church free from wickedness. On being baptized, we are explained the law of chastity and the covenant to obey it. When a person breaks that law, they are breaking the oath and covenants made at baptism. Any organization has the right to protect itself and its standards by expelling or disciplining those who break its charter rules. This is done to protect the organization, and perhaps encourage the individual to rehabilitate. CBS fired Charlie Sheen over this exact issue of protecting their own standard and image, for example.

If I was in the OP's situation, it would seem that the answer is to get married now, even if the girlfriend wanted a temple wedding. Even this newbie doesn't think that 'I've never been in a temple' is the reason for a temple wedding. I would confess to Heavenly Father that we'd been living in a way not in accord with the LOC, repent, and move on, having corrected the problem. Why bring in the bishop?

I agree they should get married to remove the possibility of future sin and problems. It will also open the door for them to go to the temple later on. The Bishop holds the keys to the "gospel of repentance" in a ward (D&C 13). In serious sins, it is his responsibility to ensure the Church and temple remain pure. It may be that these two, after civil marriage, would be only placed on an informal probation. This would be so the bishop can determine that they will no longer have this problem in the future. But that must be up to the judge in Israel, who will be guided by the Holy Spirit.

Considering all this talk about disfellowshiping and excommunication - why would anyone bring their problems to the bishop?

They want to get their lives back in order? They want to go to the temple in the future? They want to obtain celestial glory? We each have to decide how badly we want the blessings and ordinances of the gospel. We also have to decide if we are willing to humble ourselves sufficiently to surrender our pride to the Lord's chosen servant, so that the Lord himself can heal us and restore us.

[dahlia]

I think at the root of my questions is a difficulty with telling personal issues to a lay person. I know what you all have said about the position of the bishop, that he will keep confidences, etc., I just wonder how someone who may be without training in human sexuality, psychology, addictions, etc., would be the person I go to for problems - especially if he is the person who can cut me off from church, the one thing I may really need during a difficult time in my life.

If it's any consolation, I wouldn't go running to a priest or rabbi about them either.

This is really difficult.

[Wingnut]

I think at the root of my questions is a difficulty with telling personal issues to a lay person. I know what you all have said about the position of the bishop, that he will keep confidences, etc., I just wonder how someone who may be without training in human sexuality, psychology, addictions, etc., would be the person I go to for problems - especially if he is the person who can cut me off from church, the one thing I may really need during a difficult time in my life.

One would hope that a bishop -- while entitled to revelation -- knows his own personal limits. He may not have wordly qualifications to assist in those areas you mentioned, but he has access to resources and people who are able to counsel in them. He won't share your private confessions without your permission, but he may refer you elsewhere. His primary focus in the situation is not necessarily the nuts and bolts of overcoming an addiction, but rather in the spiritual and repentance parts of it. The two are very closely tied, though not exactly the same.

[Guest]

I think at the root of my questions is a difficulty with telling personal issues to a lay person. I know what you all have said about the position of the bishop, that he will keep confidences, etc., I just wonder how someone who may be without training in human sexuality, psychology, addictions, etc., would be the person I go to for problems - especially if he is the person who can cut me off from church, the one thing I may really need during a difficult time in my life.

If it's any consolation, I wouldn't go running to a priest or rabbi about them either.

This is really difficult.

Dahlia, herein lies faith. It is different to say I have faith in God and the people he gives the authority to perform his ordinances and then actually giving over yourself to those God chose to run his church.

Having faith in the Priesthood Authority is difficult until you gain a sure testimony of it.

Do you believe that Bishops are chosen by God to preside over your ward? Do you believe that the Priesthood keys he holds in that office is of God? One such key is the power of discernment - that is the ability to know what is needed to get the people he presides over to get closer to God.

Moses was given the task to bring God's people out of Egypt. Even Moses himself did not think he was qualified to do the job. But, God impressed upon him that Moses, when acting in God's behalf, will be given the talents that is required to do God's will.

Joseph Smith was not a biblical scholar. He surely did not have the proper education necessary to translate ancient writings. Yet, God chose him to bring about the restoration of the gospel.

This is the same as your bishop. God does not require that a bishop be an expert psychologist, financial analyst, bliblical scholar, Eagle Scout... He choses his leaders by virtue of their faith.

The same faith that you put in the Moses and Joseph Smith is the same faith you would need to trust in your bishop.

Will the bishop lead you astray? Sure. It can happen. He is human. Moses failed to do God's will a time or two, so did Joseph Smith. This is on the head of the bishop and not on you. Your trust in the office of the bishop will always bring you blessings as God rewards those who are faithful. Sometimes, it may not seem like it, but God never abandons his Church...

[Guest mormonmusic]

You're lucky you're not an elder and non endowed -- that will make things easier as people have said. I also doubt you'll be asked to leave your girlfriend to whom you're engaged. In terms of penalties -- that is the Bishop's counsel's call. I'm not sure what to say about it -- he will look deeply into your background to see the extent of your knowledge, where you've been in life, family background -- lots of questions to understand your background and the extent to which you might be considered accountable for what's happened.

I say get married civilly, enjoy the physical blessings of marriage, and do what's best for the child since you apparently love each other.

[rameumptom]

Dahlia,

There is actually a bishop's hotline, where the bishops can call for advice on issues they do not understand/know. The hotline helps them find social services for individuals, and programs, etc. The hotline also explains legalities regarding people confessing (if a man admits to child molestation, the bishop must notify police, for example).

So, the bishop has resources at his disposal to assist him in difficult issues. That said, bishops do keep confessions private, and do not discuss them in public, etc.

And it is difficult for any member to go to the bishop to confess. You would not be alone in that department. We all encourage those who have committed major sins to speak with the bishop. Yet, each of us would struggle with that same decision, if it were our own to make. It takes a lot of courage, trust, and humility to do it.