Just want some opinions

[USAPatriot]

I saw this on another forum and wanted your opinion on it......

"Since My friend plans on serving a mission he will most likely leave sometime next Spring 2012 but he is worried about leaving since his Bishop told him that he DID NOT Have to Leave the States if he did Not want to.

But He has not told him that he is an Illegal Immigrant because he Lied When he got baptized in the LDS church a while ago because he felt shame/embarrassed when he had to tell whoever was filling out the application his Place of Birth. HE just is reluctant to let others know that he is NOT AMERICAN by Birth that he does not have Legal Status in the USA. and does not want anyone to know within the church yet. He is unsure of how to talk about this matter since well He wants to go and I told him well I don't really know too much so talk to whoever is in charge.

The Reason for HIM Serving a 2 YR LDS Mission is that

Currently his family petition through 245i has not come through since it takes between 10-15 yrs. And its only been 10 yrs since his Uncle petitioned for his father. And by leaving for 2 yrs it might help ease the burden of his problems and worries by going somewhere else. He turns 19 next march and plans on leaving on March 2012. "

I guess my question is, did he commit a serious sin by lying to the bishop before he was baptized? Also, if he is sent on a mission, would he be committing a more serious sin? Just want some advise. I do not know who this person is but it seems to me to be a serious situation.

Thanks

[FunkyTown]

Not a serious sin, but one that needs immediate attention.

What if he gets called to Canada and can't get back to the US? What if he gets seriously hurt or ill while a missionary?

A lot of practical things need to be handled before he goes on his mission and this is one.

[MarginOfError]

This actually isn't a big deal, and shouldn't affect much of anything. The Church recently took a public stance on leniency in immigration matters. He should probably inform his bishop of his legal status while preparing the missionary recommend, but I don't think the Church particularly cares about the legal status of its members at the time of baptism.

[Guest saintish]

Makes me wonder what would happen if Glenn Beck got upset about the church's leniency and publicly left the church? hope it would never come to that but it could be a big blow to the church's PR battle with conservative christians.

[findingmyway]

My brother served a mission in Chicago, came home in 2009. He is not a legal U.S citizen. His petition and paperwork has been in processed for a long time. However, the bishop knew, and there is a way for him to serve in the states. I dont think its a serious sin , but like Funky said, it needs immediate attention.

[FunkyTown]

Makes me wonder what would happen if Glenn Beck got upset about the church's leniency and publicly left the church? hope it would never come to that but it could be a big blow to the church's PR battle with conservative christians.

If Glenn Beck left the church, we would be just as sad as if any other member left the church. If he left over politics, doubly so. Its PR battle with conservative Christians, on the other hand, I'm not too concerned about.

[USAPatriot]

I am not at odds with his immigration status, but at the fact that he lied about it and has continued to lie. Thanks for all your input.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

I saw this on another forum and wanted your opinion on it......

"Since My friend plans on serving a mission he will most likely leave sometime next Spring 2012 but he is worried about leaving since his Bishop told him that he DID NOT Have to Leave the States if he did Not want to.

But He has not told him that he is an Illegal Immigrant because he Lied When he got baptized in the LDS church a while ago because he felt shame/embarrassed when he had to tell whoever was filling out the application his Place of Birth. HE just is reluctant to let others know that he is NOT AMERICAN by Birth that he does not have Legal Status in the USA. and does not want anyone to know within the church yet. He is unsure of how to talk about this matter since well He wants to go and I told him well I don't really know too much so talk to whoever is in charge.

The Reason for HIM Serving a 2 YR LDS Mission is that

Currently his family petition through 245i has not come through since it takes between 10-15 yrs. And its only been 10 yrs since his Uncle petitioned for his father. And by leaving for 2 yrs it might help ease the burden of his problems and worries by going somewhere else. He turns 19 next march and plans on leaving on March 2012. "

I guess my question is, did he commit a serious sin by lying to the bishop before he was baptized? Also, if he is sent on a mission, would he be committing a more serious sin? Just want some advise. I do not know who this person is but it seems to me to be a serious situation.

Thanks

The LDS believes that baptism removes all sins including original sin. In that way they are not unlike the Catholic Church. I think it's cheating to willingly sin right before baptism knowing that sin will be removed.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Makes me wonder what would happen if Glenn Beck got upset about the church's leniency and publicly left the church? hope it would never come to that but it could be a big blow to the church's PR battle with conservative christians.

If the leadership of the LDS joined the "social justice" cult, then Beck would either leave it as he's counseled others to do, or he would stay and do all he could to fight it.

[Wingnut]

The LDS believes that baptism removes all sins including original sin.

Except that the LDS Church doesn't believe in original sin.

[MarginOfError]

I am not at odds with his immigration status, but at the fact that he lied about it and has continued to lie. Thanks for all your input.

I understood that. My implication was that if the Church doesn't particularly care about the legal status of a person serving a mission, or serving as a bishop, branch president, or stake president, I doubt they care much about the legal status at baptism.

It seems that the Church understands that this is an emotional admission for those it affects, and an individual can be understandably afraid to let anyone know of their illegal status. Particularly to a person they've likely only known a matter of weeks (which is usually all it takes before a person is baptized).

There are those that will hold a hard line and say, "but he lied! he lied!" But if you fear that telling the truth will send you back to a situation where your life will be notably worse than your current situation, what would you do? To that end, I refer to you Abram and Sarai.

Except that the LDS Church doesn't believe in original sin.

Details, details

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Except that the LDS Church doesn't believe in original sin.

Thanks for the clarification. If I understand what I've been told, baptism removes all sin and if somebody willingly sins on the eve of baptism knowing that the slate will be wiped clean, then it's cheating. Is that a valid point?

[Wingnut]

Willing and deliberate sin on the eve of baptism is no different than willing and deliberate sin with the attitude of, "oh, I can always repent later."

Edited March 22, 2011 by Wingnut
misspelling

[MarginOfError]

Thanks for the clarification. If I understand what I've been told, baptism removes all sin and if somebody willingly sins on the eve of baptism knowing that the slate will be wiped clean, then it's cheating. Is that a valid point?

This is something that I hear members of the LDS faith express regularly, but it isn't technically correct. Baptism, in our theology, does not wash away sin in and of itself. Repentance is what takes away our sins. Baptism is the mechanism by which we enter into the covenant with Christ that if we repent of our sins, we will be forgiven, and will have His Spirit to be with us.

In a sense, baptism is just the contract that establishes the obligation of one party to repent and be guaranteed repentance in return. Thus, sinning on the eve of baptism is not much different than sinning the day after baptism. Either way you still have to repent of your sin.

[USAPatriot]

Ok, so if I am reading some of these posts right, it is alright to lie as long as it's about your immigration status? Am I missing something here? It's fine for some people to lie but not others?

[FunkyTown]

Ok, so if I am reading some of these posts right, it is alright to lie as long as it's about your immigration status? Am I missing something here? It's fine for some people to lie but not others?

Nope. It's wrong to lie.

Just like, if you hate your wife's hair and you say 'You look incredible, honey', you should immediately go speak to your bishop with much weeping and gnashing of teeth. I usually sprinkle my head with ashes, wear sackcloth and tear my clothes.

As an aside, so people don't get the wrong idea:

Lying is wrong, no matter the circumstances. It's a venal sin, however, and won't stop someone serving a mission. That sin is between the missionary and God.

Edited March 23, 2011 by FunkyTown

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Nope. It's wrong to lie.

Just like, if you hate your wife's hair and you say 'You look incredible, honey', you should immediately go speak to your bishop with much weeping and gnashing of teeth. I usually sprinkle my head with ashes, wear sackcloth and tear my clothes.

As an aside, so people don't get the wrong idea:

Lying is wrong, no matter the circumstances. It's a venal sin, however, and won't stop someone serving a mission. That sin is between the missionary and God.

I don't see the connection. Are you suggesting that a lie to avoid hurting your wife's feelings is as bad as lying about entering this country illegally? The former is not a lie at all but an attempt to put the best face on things. Looking to the positive is a loving act. Breaking the law and then going to the bishop with the intent to deceive in hopes of not being disqualified is impious.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

I wonder how you Canadians would feel if it were thousands of illegals breaking into YOUR country and burdening YOUR social systems. Eh?

[FunkyTown]

I wonder how you Canadians would feel if it were thousands of illegals breaking into YOUR country and burdening YOUR social systems. Eh?

You mean how thousands of Americans who can't afford drugs in the US come here for our cheap drugs?

According to this, it works out to be about $1.1 billion worth of drugs purchased from us each year.

Crossing the Border to Obtain Cheaper Prescription Drugs

Many Americans cross our borders to purchase subsidized drugs, which burdens our social system.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

You mean how thousands of Americans who can't afford drugs in the US come here for our cheap drugs?

According to this, it works out to be about $1.1 billion worth of drugs purchased from us each year.

Crossing the Border to Obtain Cheaper Prescription Drugs

Many Americans cross our borders to purchase subsidized drugs, which burdens our social system.

You're comparing thousands of illegals coming into our country, going on welfare, using emergency room medical care, sending their kids to taxpayer funded schools and populating our jails and infesting our streets with crime with Americans going across the border, buying something and then going home?

Really?

You have to be kidding!

[FunkyTown]

You're comparing thousands of illegals coming into our country, going on welfare, using emergency room medical care, sending their kids to taxpayer funded schools and populating our jails and infesting our streets with crime with Americans going across the border, buying something and then going home?

Really?

You have to be kidding!

Everything you're referring to happens.

Most illegal guns come to Canada from the US. Hence: US providing crime for Canada.

A big strain on health care is brought by our losing subsidized drugs to people.

Basically, what you're arguing is scale. "More of it happens to us."

If you're saying the only difference is scale, then you and I agree. Someone who went to your country, caused crime, went to jail and committed welfare fraud, I would agree that they shouldn't go on a mission.

It doesn't sound like the original poster did all that, though. So it sounds like you and I agree, Michael: This person doesn't have to miss out on a mission any more than a kid who came to Canada, bought some cheap insulin and went home. HUZZAH! We agree.

[blackknight5k]

Most illegal guns come to Canada from the US. Hence: US providing crime for Canada.

I'm not going to disagree or agree with anything else you said, however this statement bugs me. The criminals are already in Canada, they just look elsewhere to buy neutral tools to do their crimes with. A gun isn't evil or good, it's neutral.

[FunkyTown]

I'm not going to disagree or agree with anything else you said, however this statement bugs me. The criminals are already in Canada, they just look elsewhere to buy neutrl tools to do their crimes with. A gun isn't evil or good, it's neutral.

Right. Much like cocaine is neither bad nor good, but many people in the US dislike that South American countries don't police their own and it ends up in the US. People just look to places like Colombia for them. What you're saying isn't wrong, but it is irrelevant and off-topic. Only sentient beings can be good or evil, not objects.Guns are coming in to Canada via American citizens. Whether guns themselves are morally wrong was not the point of my post. If you're looking to start a thread on that, please do so. It's not important to the question at hand.

[MarginOfError]

Ok, so if I am reading some of these posts right, it is alright to lie as long as it's about your immigration status? Am I missing something here? It's fine for some people to lie but not others?

That's not what is being said at all. What we're saying is we don't care. We are happy to leave it to someone else to judge the rightness or wrongness of it--and apparently the Church is, too.

I don't see the connection. Are you suggesting that a lie to avoid hurting your wife's feelings is as bad as lying about entering this country illegally? The former is not a lie at all but an attempt to put the best face on things. Looking to the positive is a loving act. Breaking the law and then going to the bishop with the intent to deceive in hopes of not being disqualified is impious.

It's wrong to lie, but we do it in cases where being truthful might cause hurt feeling to a loved one and most people are generally okay with that. In a nutshell, when faced with two bad options, we choose the one that allows us less pain.

A person has no job prospects in Mexico, can't support his family there, and must choose between illegally emigrating to the United States or watching his family starve. Two really crappy decisions.....yadda yadda yadda

[blackknight5k]

Right. Much like cocaine is neither bad nor good, but many people in the US dislike that South American countries don't police their own and it ends up in the US. People just look to places like Colombia for them. What you're saying isn't wrong, but it is irrelevant and off-topic. Only sentient beings can be good or evil, not objects.Guns are coming in to Canada via American citizens. Whether guns themselves are morally wrong was not the point of my post. If you're looking to start a thread on that, please do so. It's not important to the question at hand.

It was part of your argument, you brought the topic in here - and your new argument of "well people in the US use the same argument for another neutral object" is ridiculous.

Your argument and the Cocaine argument are both wrong.