Born this way

[Traveler]

Amen, as a heterosexual man, I am by nature attracted to any woman who is beautiful to me. If I surrendered to the natural man I would seek them out. If I embrace the Spiritual man, even if a struggle, I will do what is right. I may not be able to control how I feel or what temptations I have, but I can control what I do and how I act.

BTW - one on the indications of an acquired or conditioned behavior is to think it is one's nature when they have the intelligent ability to override external triggers. For example someone with a fear of water will often feel they were born that way and that it is their particular “nature” - as long as this mindset exist they will remain forever afraid.

The important thing about all this is the cognitive awareness that causes us to think through what is going on. But there is an additional dimension that has to do with how we learn by wiring and rewiring our brains. When we are first learning a behavior we must think through every process of it but as we practice our brain wires itself and begins to perform functions without any thinking about all the parts. This is evident in playing musical instruments. It has been discovered that those that play the violin can only do so after the brain wires itself to play the violin - thus the brain of a violin player is different that someone that does not play the violin. This is why much behavior must be practiced for one to become proficient.

As a side note to this - it was discovered that homosexuals have different brain wiring than heterosexuals. You may remember this. For a time it was thought that this was proof that homosexuality was genetic until it was also proven that similar wiring differences occurred when someone learned to read brail or play the violin. As soon as that happened all funding for research into why homosexual brains are wired differently stopped and nothing more was ever published. This is one of the key research situations that convinced me that there is conspiracy involved in information made available to the public.

The Traveler

[Soulsearcher]

BTW - one on the indications of an acquired or conditioned behavior is to think it is one's nature when they have the intelligent ability to override external triggers. For example someone with a fear of water will often feel they were born that way and that it is their particular “nature” - as long as this mindset exist they will remain forever afraid.

The important thing about all this is the cognitive awareness that causes us to think through what is going on. But there is an additional dimension that has to do with how we learn by wiring and rewiring our brains. When we are first learning a behavior we must think through every process of it but as we practice our brain wires itself and begins to perform functions without any thinking about all the parts. This is evident in playing musical instruments. It has been discovered that those that play the violin can only do so after the brain wires itself to play the violin - thus the brain of a violin player is different that someone that does not play the violin. This is why much behavior must be practiced for one to become proficient.

As a side note to this - it was discovered that homosexuals have different brain wiring than heterosexuals. You may remember this. For a time it was thought that this was proof that homosexuality was genetic until it was also proven that similar wiring differences occurred when someone learned to read brail or play the violin. As soon as that happened all funding for research into why homosexual brains are wired differently stopped and nothing more was ever published. This is one of the key research situations that convinced me that there is conspiracy involved in information made available to the public.

The Traveler

It would be interesting to ask both males and females though a) tell exactly when you started making the choices of what your body sexually responded to and at what age you were able to make these choices and b) exactly what you would have to learn to change that. Being i can only really speak for males, growing up i had exactly the same exposure to things as my friends and even before sex ed and such our bodies were responding to sexual stimuli and we really didn't know what was going on. Looked at something and it aroused us. So when there was nothing different really in our home lives, and a complete lack of exposure to any homosexual influence, why did i turn out different? With out even really knowing what sexual attraction was, my body responded to males, theirs responded to female. This was the early 80's in a very conservative area being raised in heavily religious environment. With people already noticing i was different around 3 or 4( not telling me this til much later so it didn't really have any bearing on the outcome) So with absolutely no exposure where and how did i learn it when only exposed to healthy heterosexual examples?

As to fears many can be traced back to a traumatic incident as the basis for such fears, so that one tends to be an odd argument, also there are fears we seem to be born with which are suggested as innate flight or fight programing, and yes some of these can be overcome. The thing i find interesting is even the people who are somewhat on your side have changed their tune quite a bit and now focus on control more than change because they've had to re-evaluate their initial stance due to learning they made errors in their way of thinking. When the advocates of change look at it and say " it's really unlikely even in the most committed of cases, the best we can tend to hope for is suppression." doesn't it seem that if they evolve their treatment methods and goals from their experience that people should learn from that as well, more so if you and them are on the same side?

[Soulsearcher]

As we have discussed earlier any research directly into human sexual behavior that is related at all to same sex attractions will never be funded or published. However, there are rather interesting studies of great apes being bred in captivity. In all studies I have ever seen - mating is documented as a "learned skill" and the best mating results come from the opportunity to "grow" up in a social structure where mating is occurring. Google it my friend and see if you find something different.

In my youth I worked at a dog kennel for a summer. The owner told me that the secret to breeding dogs is to place them early as puppies in an environment where they will learn from other dogs breading.

The Traveler

Again you are talking behaviors. You aren't addressing physiological at all. Pheromone reaction and such. There are physical cues our bodies respond to with out our knowledge so how do we learn these? This is part of sexuality so according to your thoughts we must be taught to react to these even with out ever really noticing them.

Also your analogy still doesn't work. I was around only strong healthy examples of heterosexuals growing up. Homosexuals were not in the media, or in any part of society while i was growing up. There was no place to learn it, and with only examples of male/ female bonding and mating there is a lack of explanation as to why my body responds to male stimuli and not female being it's all i ever knew or ever wanted.

[Traveler]

Again you are talking behaviors. You aren't addressing physiological at all. Pheromone reaction and such. There are physical cues our bodies respond to with out our knowledge so how do we learn these? This is part of sexuality so according to your thoughts we must be taught to react to these even with out ever really noticing them.

Also your analogy still doesn't work. I was around only strong healthy examples of heterosexuals growing up. Homosexuals were not in the media, or in any part of society while i was growing up. There was no place to learn it, and with only examples of male/ female bonding and mating there is a lack of explanation as to why my body responds to male stimuli and not female being it's all i ever knew or ever wanted.

Not really - if one considers the possibility that same sex attraction could be an outgrowth of mastur----- (which is in essence same sex attraction) - especially coupled with association to other social structures that someone so involved may find difficult for them. Growing up did you know anyone that was involved in mastur-----? So now I will ask you a question. - Realizing that not everybody that mastur----- never has other sex attractions but have you ever met a homosexual (male or female) that was never involved in mastur-----? I also find it interesting that for the most part those that are accepting of homosexuality also see nothing to be concerned with even obsessions of mastur----- in fact they think it a normal part of “growing up”.

The Traveler

[Soulsearcher]

Not really - if one considers the possibility that same sex attraction could be an outgrowth of mastur----- (which is in essence same sex attraction) - especially coupled with association to other social structures that someone so involved may find difficult for them. Growing up did you know anyone that was involved in mastur-----? So now I will ask you a question. - Realizing that not everybody that mastur----- never has other sex attractions but have you ever met a homosexual (male or female) that was never involved in mastur-----? I also find it interesting that for the most part those that are accepting of homosexuality also see nothing to be concerned with even obsessions of mastur----- in fact they think it a normal part of “growing up”.

The Traveler

I'm starting to see just how far off base your understanding is which shows why you are having troubles. Masturbation is about pleasure and sexual release. It's a physical act. You seem to have issues understanding there is a difference between attraction and sex. Growing up there wasn't a guy i didn't know who didn't masturbate, it was common conversation among males starting at 9yr's all the way up til my 30's every male i know aside from very few of the mormon males i know comment on it almost daily. again this was among a very conservative and religious base of young people, and yet again there was never mention or any thought of homosexuality, it was always related to fantasy about females. In my experience there's been no difference between straight and gay males talking about masturbation. So i'm not sure exactly where you are going with this example? Being I've only met a handful of straights who claim to never have masturbated, all of whom are mormon.... half of whom got caught in the act after saying it lol, there seems no relation.

[carlimac]

Again you are talking behaviors. You aren't addressing physiological at all. Pheromone reaction and such. There are physical cues our bodies respond to with out our knowledge so how do we learn these? This is part of sexuality so according to your thoughts we must be taught to react to these even with out ever really noticing them.

Also your analogy still doesn't work. I was around only strong healthy examples of heterosexuals growing up. Homosexuals were not in the media, or in any part of society while i was growing up. There was no place to learn it, and with only examples of male/ female bonding and mating there is a lack of explanation as to why my body responds to male stimuli and not female being it's all i ever knew or ever wanted.

I fear to tread here and it's really none of my business BUT didn't you say in past discussions that you were sexually active with a woman in your earlier life? So responding to a female isn't impossible. Maybe just not as fun or enticing for whatever reason? My point being that sexual stimulation can come from a lot of different sources. I believe it's often just the mere suggestion of a sexually charged situation that can have an arousal type effect on people, especially young kids whose hormones are kicking into high gear. I believe we can control if we will allow our minds first and our bodies to respond to that stimuli. I don't find it impossible that many people who believe they are gay just got their arousal buttons mixed up as youth (or allowed the feelings and thoughts to stick around when it involved that same gender rather than suppressing it like they did with the opposite gender. ) My theory only.

OK mods you can erase this if it's going beyond what's appropriate. I'm just trying to understand why men who have been involved in conceiving children suddenly decide they can no longer be married to a woman because they are gay. I think that's hooey.

Edited March 31, 2011 by carlimac

[Seminarysnoozer]

I am not sure why there are some LDS, even some that have been active all their lives that still don't understand the idea that we are dual beings in this life. We are both spiritual and physical. The spiritual self is who that person really is. In this life the physical can can overpower the spiritual self in big ways. Think of someone who has Down's syndrome for example or someone who later develops Alzheimers.

Would you say the individual who has Down's was born that way because it represents their spirit? ... of course not.

Our physical being and traits can be polar opposites to what our spiritual traits are underneath. This is part of the test we face. In any one individual we would have a hard time saying why they have to face that test or challenge in life. That is for the person to figure out through prayer and the spirit.

There are some physical traits that also drive tendencies such as genetic predispositions to alcoholism or consider what a person with Tourette's faces with tendencies to self medicate with stimulants and alcohol, etc. That in no way is an expression of their spiritual traits, just the challenge they face in this life.

We are dual beings ... so a song about being "born that way" is only referring to the "test conditions" not the spiritual make up of that individual.

[carlimac]

Instead of arguing with the people going through it, telling them all they have experienced is wrong and they don't know what they are talking about, why not just say "ok, so here's the next step for you if you want to remain in the church"? Spending all your time telling them they are confused or wrong or everything they've gone through and experienced doesn't matter cause you know better really doesn't seem accurate or conducive to your end goals.

I guess I've been guilty of this. I've actually prayed to understand this becuse it's so befuddling to me. The answer I've gotten - twice now is, "It doesn't matter what the cause of homosexuality is. The real issue is how we treat those who are trying their best to deal with it and keep the commandments. Don't add to their burden. You have burdens and weaknesses of your own. You wouldn't want others belittling you for those."

So to clarify, I DO have compassion for those who are genuinely trying to live the way our FAther in Heaven has commanded. It must be really tough. I just read this again

http://http://lds.org/liahona/2004/09/compassion-for-those-who-struggle?lang=eng&query=homosexuality

My heart goes out to this person.

One of my weaknesses is judging others and getting offended by what I see as wickedness in the world. So I do have a problem feeling compassion for all who justify their homosexual activity and have no restraint and those who spit (literally and figuratively) on those of us who proclaim that chastity and opposite gender marriage is what the Lord expects of us. Again...I know I need to work on loving everyone despite their indisgressions. (Don't get me started on the subject of tattoos and multiple piercings. Ugh! That one is even harder for me to accept.) I've got a lot of humbling to go through and work to do.

Anyway, my apologies for trying to dig to understand the origin of homosexuality. It's something I, for one, am not supposed to know the answer to right now.

[Soulsearcher]

I guess I've been guilty of this. I've actually prayed to understand this becuse it's so befuddling to me. The answer I've gotten - twice now is, "It doesn't matter what the cause of homosexuality is. The real issue is how we treat those who are trying their best to deal with it and keep the commandments. Don't add to their burden. You have burdens and weaknesses of your own. You wouldn't want others belittling you for those."

So to clarify, I DO have compassion for those who are genuinely trying to live the way our FAther in Heaven has commanded. It must be really tough. I just read this again

http://http://lds.org/liahona/2004/09/compassion-for-those-who-struggle?lang=eng&query=homosexuality

My heart goes out to this person.

One of my weaknesses is judging others and getting offended by what I see as wickedness in the world. So I do have a problem feeling compassion for all who justify their homosexual activity and have no restraint and those who spit (literally and figuratively) on those of us who proclaim that chastity and opposite gender marriage is what the Lord expects of us. Again...I know I need to work on loving everyone despite their indisgressions. (Don't get me started on the subject of tattoos and multiple piercings. Ugh! That one is even harder for me to accept.) I've got a lot of humbling to go through and work to do.

Anyway, my apologies for trying to dig to understand the origin of homosexuality. It's something I, for one, am not supposed to know the answer to right now.

All understandable. My main point has only ever been people need to quit telling us they know the why, and know our experiences better than we do. Telling someone they are mentally ill doesn't tend to lessen the burden( such as addiction) You can state what the church currently says, and for the most part you've seen me echo it and support the stance for members who wish to remain active and oddly enough i was the one for the most part defending Elder Packer after last conference. So many times I'm given comments like " well if you understood the gospel" or "if you had a strong testimony of heavenly father." All i ever ask for is the same logic being applied to other fields, and until it can be, the same respect people seem to want towards their beliefs when it comes to the church.

So to clarify, I DO have compassion for those who are genuinely trying to live the way our FAther in Heaven has commanded. It must be really tough. I just read this again

Shouldn't you have compassion for all your brothers and sisters, even those not living life exactly the way you would?

[ferretrunner]

I guess I've been guilty of this. I've actually prayed to understand this becuse it's so befuddling to me. The answer I've gotten - twice now is, "It doesn't matter what the cause of homosexuality is. The real issue is how we treat those who are trying their best to deal with it and keep the commandments. Don't add to their burden. You have burdens and weaknesses of your own. You wouldn't want others belittling you for those."

So to clarify, I DO have compassion for those who are genuinely trying to live the way our FAther in Heaven has commanded. It must be really tough. I just read this again

http://http://lds.org/liahona/2004/09/compassion-for-those-who-struggle?lang=eng&query=homosexuality

My heart goes out to this person.

One of my weaknesses is judging others and getting offended by what I see as wickedness in the world. So I do have a problem feeling compassion for all who justify their homosexual activity and have no restraint and those who spit (literally and figuratively) on those of us who proclaim that chastity and opposite gender marriage is what the Lord expects of us. Again...I know I need to work on loving everyone despite their indisgressions. (Don't get me started on the subject of tattoos and multiple piercings. Ugh! That one is even harder for me to accept.) I've got a lot of humbling to go through and work to do.

Anyway, my apologies for trying to dig to understand the origin of homosexuality. It's something I, for one, am not supposed to know the answer to right now.

You asking the question allowed for a mature discussion about homosexuality. Thank you for asking the question. Perhaps it helped someone else.

[ferretrunner]

School, society, media, the guy down the street who introduces him, the jock girl who has learned it from others like her. It's encouraged in the most subtle as well as the most blatant of ways. It's everywhere!

I've noticed something very interesting. I've lived in a town now less than a year where the socioeconomic level is quite a bit lower than where I lived before. It's very rural. Lots of farmers and cowboys. I have only noticed one obviously gay man (my hairdresser- who did a very good job by the way) in about 9 months of living here. My kids knew of plenty of gay kids in their high schools before. Now they don't know of any.

So if this homosexuality is totally random and strikes evenly across all societies, why wouldn't we be seeing it more in this city we live in? I think it's because it's not talked about as much, not made a big deal of, not seen as something cool or glorified or encouraged at all. Manliness and macho are the trend. And the girls are super feminine. (Over the top if you ask me. WHERE did they get the idea that all that make-up is attractive?) There are some athletic girls and tough cowgirl types. But they aren't lesbians. They are known to like boys, There are some boys who are a bit more effeminate than others. One in my ward is such a cute boy. He's autistic and a bit feminine in his actions. He gets a pass due to his autism.

So my assumption is that there is a huge environmental/societal factor involved. Not in every case. Some kids are known to have hormonal imbalances that cause them to act different that the majority of their gender. Some are that way ...just because- who knows why? But even those (my cousin was one and I can immediately think of at least 3-4 others) grow up to marry and have families and fulfill in every way their gender role as expected.

If homosexuality is indeed a mutation, it shouldn't be that hard for scientists to figure out. They've mapped the whole human genome and haven't come up with anything that suggests that there is a genetic link to homosexuality.

Soceity may not impact the number of gay individuals. It does impact whether or not they choose to "come out." Until recently, coming out in the military meant the end of your service. So there obviously were no gays in the military because no one admitted to it, right?

From what you described about where you live and the attitude your post displayed, if I were gay, I wouldn't come out in your community. It wouldn't be safe.

BTW, what is a "jock girl?" As a female and an athelte, I hope you're not implying an athletic female is automatically gay. You'd be wrong.

Also, there are many gays who try to "pass" as straight. They still have

the attraction but they choose to live the heterosexual life. They may or may not be at all attracted to the opposite sex.

If being gay is so cool, why are gay teens and young adults more likely to experience violence? And depression? And why did several gay teens and young adults kill themselves?

Society isn't "friendly" to gay individuals at all. I work with a coworker who recently had his car trashed just because someone thought he was gay.

[ferretrunner]

About 1974 the American Psychiatric Association decided that orientation is not a disorder - therefore not an addiction. This they did without even a single scientific study or any data. At the same time the US government was pressured (or convinced depending on the point of view) to drop all funding of research in any way related to orientation as a disorder or an addiction - despite the fact that orientation meets all the criteria that every other sexual addiction meets. If I am wrong please enlighten me.

So with the threat of loss of accreditation and any chance at any future research funding I doubt you will find any professional willing to take such a risk or if they did, anyone willing to even think to back them. Plus it gives those in favor of such things to ignore what-ever related scientific data there is and smugly say to anyone that dares reference similar scientific studies - that orientation is the great exception that does not apply to any rule what-so-ever. Even to the point of demanding any opposition alone is obligated to provide anything resembling proof.

Therefore my proof is simple logic - something available to anybody with an IQ above room temperature. Orientation is not instinctive or genetic and in the 37 years since 1974 never even been close to being proven to be instinctive or genetic - orientation certainly is not something inherited form parents. If orientation is genetic or instinctive it could only come from a mutation - but that is just as taboo as an addiction. So the only other scientific alternative or possibility is that it is a cognitive behavior and thus an addiction just like every other acquired sexual behavior.

This certainly is not the first time that pseudo-experts have stood up and proclaimed something to be that in reality was not.

The Traveler

So is someone who is straight addicted to the opposite sex?

[Soulsearcher]

I fear to tread here and it's really none of my business BUT didn't you say in past discussions that you were sexually active with a woman in your earlier life? So responding to a female isn't impossible. Maybe just not as fun or enticing for whatever reason? My point being that sexual stimulation can come from a lot of different sources. I believe it's often just the mere suggestion of a sexually charged situation that can have an arousal type effect on people, especially young kids whose hormones are kicking into high gear. I believe we can control if we will allow our minds first and our bodies to respond to that stimuli. I don't find it impossible that many people who believe they are gay just got their arousal buttons mixed up as youth (or allowed the feelings and thoughts to stick around when it involved that same gender rather than suppressing it like they did with the opposite gender. ) My theory only.

OK mods you can erase this if it's going beyond what's appropriate. I'm just trying to understand why men who have been involved in conceiving children suddenly decide they can no longer be married to a woman because they are gay. I think that's hooey.

Sorry was away over night and just getting back to things.

I don't mind responding to this because i have already in the past.

Yes I've been with a woman. Was it impossible for me, no, men and I'm finding more women are able to do amazing things to get through things they really don't want to. We've all heard the joke of picturing someone else while in bed with your spouse. Combine that tactic with all out fear of being different and not understanding why you aren't attracted to this girl that every guy is after and who is ready to marry you and yeah i was able to convince myself to go through with it.

One of the things a lot of people don't understand and it does lead to confusion is married gay men. First off even the LDS church used to tell gay men it was a sure absolute cure to homosexuality. If you were gay getting married would make sure you weren't gay anymore, and having faith in your leaders and wanting to be good and no longer evil and selfish(which were term connected to being gay) you'd jump right in. Contrary to popular belief there are many men who if they could stop being gay, if there was a cure or a miracle drug or some sure fire way...they'd take it in a heart beat. Also many families made it clear, be straight or you are no longer family. looking at the up swing in all of this coming to light now most of these marriages we are hearing about were from the 70's and early 80's. Try being out in the main stream back then. The only time you usually heard anything about gays was in very dirty or derogatory terms. Growing up i heard all my guy friends wanting to beat up queers and fags and do horrible things to them. The adults around me had these horrible dirty nasty jokes about gays, and this was very much main stream culture back then. So a gay guy gets married to run from all of it. Looks at porn to get in the mood, thinks about the hot waiter at dinner and look you have kids and the husband a lot of the time stepping out on the wife with a boyfriend on the side so he can pretend to keep up the happy family act. ( not personal experience, just lots and lots of guys I've talked to and read about who've been through it) So much of it comes down to fear. It might not be something you understand, but with me not even really being out I've been disowned by people closest to me in the name of the church, afraid standing beside me might be the same as promoting the sin. I've seen gay friends threatened, fired, taunted, humiliated, just for being gay. I've seen a roving band of white supremacists troll the gay bars i go to just to find guys alone to beat. and that's now, 15-20 years ago or more and it was worse. So i get the " i don't understand" portion i really do. the hooey part, the guy's pretty much used a woman as a prop to put on a show, a lot of guilt and shame can come with that and yeah they could keep it up, myself, i wanted the girls to have a fair shot at someone who actually wanted them, not just a prop to scream " see I'm one of you" Ideally they never should have done it in the first place. I'm still a believer in real marriage, love, honesty, commitment ect. I'm not a believer in sham marriages for money, or citizenship, i take the vows serious and if i can't love, and honor i don't think there should be a marriage, and as the environment of fear is lifting you are finding these men saying " now i can be me, as well as, it's time to be honest and let you have a chance at a real marriage." Many of the wives are also commenting on things like " i wish they had been honest up front" "There was always something that didn't feel right but i kept praying and hoping" I'm not saying it's right or good but as someone who was engaged twice and almost a third time.......I understand they why and am very very glad i never let it go that far.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Like Soulsearcher has said before there are many threads on this topic and it has been said before but because, as this thread shows, these concepts are not easy to grasp and understand. I think a premise to understand this topic as well as any topic regarding passions of the body is to realize that a good part of our test in this life is to gain control of our body's passions, whatever they are.

The phrase "born this way" is a push in the direction of saying "I am not responsible for it" and " I shouldn't have to work against that tendency" and "I shouldn't try to change that about myself". One thing is for sure, I was born imperfect and I will die imperfect. We are all born with corrupted and imperfect bodies. The genetic tendency to consume large amounts of food or to be engaged in intellictual argument or to seek out pain relieving medications may be equaly challenging tests in this life for some souls as much as any other. I wouldn't want to know about all the tests personally in this life. I have enough challenges as it is.

I just hope that those that strugle with this particular challenge expressed in this thread don't take the idea of "born this way" as a comforting thought against having to battle against it in this life. I believe homosexuality is mostly genetically influenced as to the wiring in the brain but it is still a passion of the body that should be attempted to be controlled. Even if that specific passion gains acceptance as a "normal" part of the human make up that doesn't change the possibility that it is a corrupted feature from the perfected form of the body created in the garden of Eden.

I don't have to know what it is like to say that it is a passion that should be controlled, because all passions of the body should be controlled. And, therefore, we will be held responsible for what we did with those passions even if they continue through the day we die.

[Soulsearcher]

Like Soulsearcher has said before there are many threads on this topic and it has been said before but because, as this thread shows, these concepts are not easy to grasp and understand. I think a premise to understand this topic as well as any topic regarding passions of the body is to realize that a good part of our test in this life is to gain control of our body's passions, whatever they are.

The phrase "born this way" is a push in the direction of saying "I am not responsible for it" and " I shouldn't have to work against that tendency" and "I shouldn't try to change that about myself". One thing is for sure, I was born imperfect and I will die imperfect. We are all born with corrupted and imperfect bodies. The genetic tendency to consume large amounts of food or to be engaged in intellictual argument or to seek out pain relieving medications may be equaly challenging tests in this life for some souls as much as any other. I wouldn't want to know about all the tests personally in this life. I have enough challenges as it is.

I just hope that those that strugle with this particular challenge expressed in this thread don't take the idea of "born this way" as a comforting thought against having to battle against it in this life. I believe homosexuality is mostly genetically influenced as to the wiring in the brain but it is still a passion of the body that should be attempted to be controlled. Even if that specific passion gains acceptance as a "normal" part of the human make up that doesn't change the possibility that it is a corrupted feature from the perfected form of the body created in the garden of Eden.

I don't have to know what it is like to say that it is a passion that should be controlled, because all passions of the body should be controlled. And, therefore, we will be held responsible for what we did with those passions even if they continue through the day we die.

It does bring a certain amount of comfort but not what many people seem to think. When a person has tried for years, prayed, fasted, spends thousands on counseling, tried and tried everything to change and make no progress that's where the comfort comes in. Through all of that they've not given into the desire, but can't get rid of the desire. They are controlling, but still not where a lot of the world expects them to be. "Born this way" is simply saying, this is a part of who i am,but that doesn't mean it can't mesh with other parts of the world. It's more a message to comfort all of those who have tried to change and when they fail, are told " it's your fault cause you are weak, selfish, and just haven't really tried" vs "you are born this way so it's ok to do what you want" which is how some people seem to take it.

[Traveler]

So is someone who is straight addicted to the opposite sex?

It is very likely that there are more straight sexual addicts. To me addiction is when someone becomes to believe that they are no longer in charge or master of their behavior. That they were borne a certain way and do not have choice. Thus when an external trigger is cognitively recognized - they lose control; unable to resist.

It is also possible that many are developing habitual cognitive responses by repeating behavior. Sometimes we call involuntary cognitive responses, being “brainwashed”. It all boils down to will.

For me personally - I can understand something being hard, difficult or even almost impossible. I can understand someone saying “I will” or “I won’t” but when someone says “I can’t” concerning any cognitive behavior - they are ether lying or addicted. BTW this applies to many things when people lack the will to take responsibility for what or who they are as we see so often in the TV show - “The Biggest Looser”.

So many times I have heard people say they changed their life when they decided that they would do something worthwhile. But with the same sex attraction all I ever hear are excuses and I can’ts. Back when I was competing in cycling a coach told me - nothing of value is accomplished with excuses; make up your mind to do it or admit you are not willing to do what it takes to do it.

The Traveler

[Soulsearcher]

It is very likely that there are more straight sexual addicts. To me addiction is when someone becomes to believe that they are no longer in charge or master of their behavior. That they were borne a certain way and do not have choice. Thus when an external trigger is cognitively recognized - they lose control; unable to resist.

It is also possible that many are developing habitual cognitive responses by repeating behavior. Sometimes we call involuntary cognitive responses, being “brainwashed”. It all boils down to will.

For me personally - I can understand something being hard, difficult or even almost impossible. I can understand someone saying “I will” or “I won’t” but when someone says “I can’t” concerning any cognitive behavior - they are ether lying or addicted. BTW this applies to many things when people lack the will to take responsibility for what or who they are as we see so often in the TV show - “The Biggest Looser”.

So many times I have heard people say they changed their life when they decided that they would do something worthwhile. But with the same sex attraction all I ever hear are excuses and I can’ts. Back when I was competing in cycling a coach told me - nothing of value is accomplished with excuses; make up your mind to do it or admit you are not willing to do what it takes to do it.

The Traveler

Again your statement seems to miss the point. You've said all human sexuality is an addiction. Not the act of sex, not any of the behaviors, you past posts have stated all human sexuality is addiction. That's what you need to explain. All physiological reactions and such to you are addiction and learned, so we are still waiting for the facts behind this.

As for the excuses and can't, most of the time you hear this from people who have put in the effort you say and it still doesn't work. I don't think you really understand the lengths people have gone through to change and seen no results. I know you think you get it and in your mind it's very clear, but again you are working off assumptions that have no backing in fact beyond what you assume.

[Dravin]

Traveler do you believe you could train yourself to be homosexual? I'm not asking if you could train yourself to have sex with men, but to be attracted to men and not women?

[Seminarysnoozer]

It does bring a certain amount of comfort but not what many people seem to think. When a person has tried for years, prayed, fasted, spends thousands on counseling, tried and tried everything to change and make no progress that's where the comfort comes in. Through all of that they've not given into the desire, but can't get rid of the desire. They are controlling, but still not where a lot of the world expects them to be. "Born this way" is simply saying, this is a part of who i am,but that doesn't mean it can't mesh with other parts of the world. It's more a message to comfort all of those who have tried to change and when they fail, are told " it's your fault cause you are weak, selfish, and just haven't really tried" vs "you are born this way so it's ok to do what you want" which is how some people seem to take it.

Thanks for your response. I think that is where the world (and maybe even the church if that is the way they come across) is wrong, that the focus should be to "change". I think the goal is to control not necessarily to change.

If the goal is to control and not necessarily to change than one can be successful in that endeavor, whatever the passion in this life is that we are talking about.

I still every once in a while catch my husband checking out women but I know him well enough to know that it is a human instinct and tendency of normal function to do that but he doesn't act any further on it. It is a quick glance and then he might turn his chair the other way or force his eyes in a different direction. When he sees half naked women on TV, which is easy to do nowadays by flipping through the channels, he will quickly change the channel. If we go out to a movie and there is nudity or heavy sexual content, we will walk out of the movie. I think we all have to deal with passions and desires that come from the body which are normal. I am glad my husband is not repulsed by women and at the same time I realize this will be a lifelong challenge for him, cause if I do say so myself, he is an attractive man.

The problem is that just because it is a passion that could even be from genetically encoded neuronal and hormonal pathways does not make it a green light to act on it or promote it in one's life. All of us face those kinds of challenges every day. This very minute I am having to act against my olfactory driven, genetically and past behavior enhanced passion to eat the cake in front of me that my daughter baked an hour ago.

It definitely becomes harder to control those passions if one tells themselves that they "can't help it", "this is the way I was born". I could say the same thing about my passions for sweets, I have many generations before me to prove it is genetically driven.

I would imagine that if homosexuality is the passion we are talking about, it would be much harder to control if one surrounds themselves with people of similar passions and challenges. ... thank goodness my husband doesn't like sweets as much as I do.

Edited April 1, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer

[Soulsearcher]

Thanks for your response. I think that is where the world (and maybe even the church if that is the way they come across) is wrong, that the focus should be to "change". I think the goal is to control not necessarily to change.

If the goal is to control and not necessarily to change than one can be successful in that endeavor, whatever the passion in this life is that we are talking about.

I still every once in a while catch my husband checking out women but I know him well enough to know that it is a human instinct and tendency of normal function to do that but he doesn't act any further on it. It is a quick glance and then he might turn his chair the other way or force his eyes in a different direction. When he sees half naked women on TV, which is easy to do nowadays by flipping through the channels, he will quickly change the channel. If we go out to a movie and there is nudity or heavy sexual content, we will walk out of the movie. I think we all have to deal with passions and desires that come from the body which are normal. I am glad my husband is not repulsed by women and at the same time I realize this will be a lifelong challenge for him, cause if I do say so myself, he is an attractive man.

The problem is that just because it is a passion that could even be from genetically encoded neuronal and hormonal pathways does not make it a green light to act on it or promote it in one's life. All of us face those kinds of challenges every day. This very minute I am having to act against my olfactory driven, genetically and past behavior enhanced passion to eat the cake in front of me that my daughter baked an hour ago.

It definitely becomes harder to control those passions if one tells themselves that they "can't help it", "this is the way I was born". I could say the same thing about my passions for sweets, I have many generations before me to prove it is genetically driven.

I think this is where things get a lil different. Comparing sexual attraction to eating sweets, or drinking alcohol, ect ect. You might not be able to eat the cake, but you can have carrots. Can't drink a beer, but can have water. If homosexuality is biological it's not so much the need to eat sweets, it's the need to eat. We can control ourselves, but it's by starvation, not just picking the healthy food over the sweets. Again the reasoning for the louder born that way voice you are hearing now, is in response to the worlds past very vocal stance of all homosexuality, both the attractions and the behaviors are evil and must not exist. If it is biological it is like telling a blond that as long as they are blond they are evil, if they do not change from being blond then it is their fault they are evil and that is a fact. Right now, as shown by the evolution in the conversation coming from the church leadership, the errors of the past are trying to be over come, the problem is people do not let go of old learned and taught ideas very easily. So while the church changes the direction of their energy on the issue those still being blamed and mocked and looked down on are trying to give comfort and strength until all the rest around them adapt to the newer more enlightened views of their faiths.

In the example of your husband, and what traveler has suggested, the fact he is attracted to any woman period, even you is sign of an addiction. Your husband notices women but works to not dwell or entertain too much beyond noticing, this is where the issue comes from. To many and until recently the church even seemed to teach, that if a homosexual never even went further than where your husband is now, they were still sinning and it was all their fault. There are still those seeing me saying a man is attractive is a sin, even if i never go past that initial passing glance.

Edited April 1, 2011 by Soulsearcher

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think this is where things get a lil different. Comparing sexual attraction to eating sweets, or drinking alcohol, ect ect. You might not be able to eat the cake, but you can have carrots. Can't drink a beer, but can have water. If homosexuality is biological it's not so much the need to eat sweets, it's the need to eat. We can control ourselves, but it's by starvation, not just picking the healthy food over the sweets. Again the reasoning for the louder born that way voice you are hearing now, is in response to the worlds past very vocal stance of all homosexuality, both the attractions and the behaviors are evil and must not exist. If it is biological it is like telling a blond that as long as they are blond they are evil, if they do not change from being blond then it is their fault they are evil and that is a fact. Right now, as shown by the evolution in the conversation coming from the church leadership, the errors of the past are trying to be over come, the problem is people do not let go of old learned and taught ideas very easily. So while the church changes the direction of their energy on the issue those still being blamed and mocked and looked down on are trying to give comfort and strength until all the rest around them adapt to the newer more enlightened views of their faiths.

I don't think there is a "need" to be sexually minded. Whereas there is a "need" to eat. So, if anything, that passion is harder than a sexually driven one. Maybe that is different for a man, I don't know, but that is how I see it.

I agree with taking the approach of control over eradication of it all. Nobody should be blamed or mocked for those passions any more than a person who is overweight should be blamed or mocked but should be loved and helped through it. I agree with that.

Edited April 1, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer

[Soulsearcher]

I don't think there is a "need" to be sexually minded. Whereas there is a "need" to eat. So, if anything, that passion is harder than a sexually driven one. Maybe that is different for a man, I don't know, but that is how I see it.

I'm not sure if i agree or disagree. Depends what you define as sexually minded. Physiological reactions and noticing something pleasing with out dwelling to me isn't sexually minded it's just a response. Most of the time people take a second or two to even notice and catch themselves. The point i was more making with the sweets comparison was there are choices with out just giving up food.

I think the term passions is getting in the way a bit here. Most human have a biological sexual urge, it's pretty much hardwired, though some people think humans are completely asexual til they are taught it. Since you seem to like the food and eating analogy, we'll stick with it. Overweight usually is caused by carrying eating a lil over board. ( yes there are many factors, i'm just keeping it general), it can be controlled but a person is still allowed to eat. Eating in and of it's self isn't so much a passion it's required. Physical sexual urges are part of the human body, and as shown in male bodies the body will react and go even further on it's own even with out help. If one is born with same sex attractions they have done nothing period it's who they are. A great many people who are over weight have made choices that lead there. I agree that neither should be mocked, but there is a difference between a person who just is, and a person who had given into their passions.

Edited April 1, 2011 by Soulsearcher

[ferretrunner]

I don't think there is a "need" to be sexually minded. Whereas there is a "need" to eat. So, if anything, that passion is harder than a sexually driven one. Maybe that is different for a man, I don't know, but that is how I see it.

I agree with taking the approach of control over eradication of it all. Nobody should be blamed or mocked for those passions any more than a person who is overweight should be blamed or mocked but should be loved and helped through it. I agree with that.

We are biologically wired toward sex. We can choose to view sex as something to be respected. Or we can choose to be loose and see it only as biological. But, we can't stop being sexual beings. I think it's more a matter of personal attitude and respect towards self and others.

[Seminarysnoozer]

We are biologically wired toward sex. We can choose to view sex as something to be respected. Or we can choose to be loose and see it only as biological. But, we can't stop being sexual beings. I think it's more a matter of personal attitude and respect towards self and others.

Yes, we are wired towards many primitive drives. That was my point. We are wired for self protection which can elicit anger and violence. We are wired for hunger and thirst which can lead to selling of one's inheritance, that is how strong that influence can be. We are wired to sleep every night, even though the Lord wished the apostles would stay awake for a little longer in the Garden, these influences are strong and difficult to overcome.

That was my point, that we can't "stop" it but we can control it and we are told to control it in many ways.

If the argument is to "stop it", I agree, that is a lost argument. But that isn't what we are asked to do, we are asked to control our passions. ... to be the master of our passions. When a person says, "I was born this way" that is a step in the direction of saying, "I cannot control these drives". That is why I think it is dangerous to say that to self. The spirit can be stronger than the body but it is not easy. It was never intended to be a non-issue a non-challenge, it is a challenge, a life long challenge for some.

Also, if the goal is to control it, the last thing a person should do is surround themselves with people, voices and ideas of giving into it and promoting it.

[Soulsearcher]

That was my point, that we can't "stop" it but we can control it and we are told to control it in many ways.

The issue is, the church held the stance that "stopping" was the only answer. There are still so many who think that stopping is the only answer. Those who think stopping is the only answer or who think everything is a choice punish those who can't "stop" in numerous ways. The church, mostly under president Hinckley has moved on from that stance, but it's still held by many. If you posess the attractions you are sinning. You make the choice to go against god by holding on to the attractions and not being straight. It's all a choice to feel the way you do and that alone makes you a sinner. You keep saying "born that way" is an easy out, but it's not. It has nothing to do about not being able to control. It's about the inability to change. When every one is telling you that what you can't change is not part of you, when they refuse to accept you as you and even notice you are in control of your desires, the answer " i was born this way" is a response meaning put your money where your mouth is. I was born with this challenge and am willing to fight if i desire to, are you willing to sit down shut up and support as i do it, or just keep up the same old prejudice. As i keep saying though it seems to be missed, the push for people to under stand the possible biological implications came from the spike in suicides because even if people were not sinning they were being cast out and persecuted, time after time they'd try to change, try to do all they could, therapy, prayer, marriage, body mutilation, shock therapy, they tried and tried with all their heart and soul and nothing could "fix them", and after all of their effort the answer was "it's not a part of you, it's just a selfish evil choice, you haven't tried hard enough, you are mocking god, there is no other possible reason but that you are weak evil and selfish." Telling someone who's tried, and i mean tried harder than you might ever imagine, who hates themselves so much, that "you might just be born this way, it can't change, so instead of working so hard in a fruitless battle, why not put you energy toward living in control and maybe just maybe enjoying life in some way" isn't an " i can't control these drives" so much as focusing on the battle that should be fought rather that fighting a battle already lost.

Also, if the goal is to control it, the last thing a person should do is surround themselves with people, voices and ideas of giving into it and promoting it.

Yes and no. If i surrounded myself with people just from the LDS church, I'd be a basket case. The level of support is so unpredictable and the judgment and mightier than thou attitudes that claim to know what's going on better than i do would not help me try and control it in any way. Since I've come out the greatest of hypocrites I've personally discover have been in the church, and i don't mean that to sound nasty, just my personal experience. I'm not saying the church lacks the ability to support and some of the members on this site have been amazing, but for the most part there's a reason the majority of gays leave the church, and contrary to popular belief it's not just so they can live sin, there are many times it's made clear by family, friends, ward members, that you are just not welcome unless you conform to their ideal. Talking to people who understand and respect you is a great thing. That's where you are going to find the ability to control. Exposure to vice leads to greater temptation, i fully agree, but also people who's been there, done that have a greater ability to help you work through things. Trying to talk to someone who's first response it " gross!!!" or "sinner!!!!" really isn't going to do anything. People who listen to the person with out a preconceived judgment can makes the difference. I guess i also see a difference between what you see. I don't see people or voices saying give in and run with it, i hear accept yourself and make your choices. Live your life proud of who you are, don't make any excuses to others and go from there. I still live my life in shame and fear because of others, i don't live for me cause i'm so worried about what others say, and it's a horrid existence i wouldn't want a young person to go through. If a song of all things can give them strength and a lil hope more power to them, it's all situational, someone in the culture can hear the message while those on the outside rely on "as translated correctly"

Edited April 2, 2011 by Soulsearcher