Born this way

[carlimac]

Soul, you are a good person and I believe you're sincere. Some of the probelms with your arguement though are that you are approaching this from a non-LDS standpoint. Sure the world will put their collective arms around you when you say I was "born that way". I'm sure it's nice to have that feeling of acceptance. But they are not going to do one thing to stop you from getting sexually involved with your same gender if you so desire. It's like the socially awkward teen who finds acceptance in the crowd of kids who smoke pot. They will bring him right into the group and tell him he is OK even though no one else can see his value. It must feel so good to finally be accepted. But is smoking pot good for him? Absolutely not. And that crowd doesn't care if it's bad for him or not. They won't take one step in helping him cope with his social problems. They will only share their pot with him.

The gay /lesbian community doesn't give a hoot if some kid is LDS and trying to live a chaste life. Yes they will love him/her and give him all kinds of encouragement. They will make sure he knows he can't do a darn thing about his homosexuality. I suppose that must feel good. Whew! I can finally be WHO AM" BUT they will also try to convince him that any church that doesn't allow him to express his sexuality and become involved is mean and hateful. They will destroy his/her testimony of the eternal principles that are so vital for our salvation.

Believe it or not, there are other things that are more important than feeling good about ourselves and being accepted. Standing up for truth and righteousness is more important. WE were told in General Conference today that things will only get harder for memebers of the church in the future as the world continues to turn away from Heavenly Father and His eternal principles. If that means a gay or lesbian person needs to completely avoid others they know are gay and, though loving and accepting, will undermine their determination to stay clean, then so be it. I believe they will be blessed for it. Not an easy road to travel and one of great lonliness. I don't envy them . It must be terribly hard.

I don't expect you to fully understand this since you have never been a member of the church. But this is the way it is. Yes the church is "behind the times" as far as acceptance of gays go. We are struggling with this issue too because we are commanded to love all but we cannot accept any degree of sin as OK in our lives. It puts us between a rock and hard place and at times it pits our spiritual goals against our social sensibilities. We are trying to find a balance. Some members of the church sway drastically to one side or the other. You need to try to understand where we are coming from and believe that we ARE trying to figure it all out. Please quit forever bringing up the past in how we have dealt with gays. We are learning and trying to adjust our thinking. But I can guarantee that unless God tells our prophet that now gay marriage is now sanctioned by Him, it won't be accepted by the majority of church members and there will always be those who fight for all they are worth against it. I am one of those. It really has very little to do with the intinsic value or lack thereof of gay or lesbian people. It has EVERYTHING to do with trying desperately to cling to deeply held beliefs in traditional marriage and the absolute necessity of it to gain celestal life. That may all sound like a fairy tale to you. But it is very real to church members.

Please take a minute to try to put yourself in our shoes, just like you are begging us to understand you.

Edited April 2, 2011 by carlimac

[Soulsearcher]

Soul, you are a good person and I believe you're sincere. Some of the probelms with your arguement though are that you are approaching this from a non-LDS standpoint. Sure the world will put their collective arms around you when you say I was "born that way". I'm sure it's nice to have that feeling of acceptance. But they are not going to do one thing to stop you from getting sexually involved with your same gender if you so desire. It's like the socially awkward teen who finds acceptance in the crowd of kids who smoke pot. They will bring him right into the group and tell him he is OK even though no one else can see his value. It must feel so good to finally be accepted. But is smoking pot good for him? Absolutely not. And that crowd doesn't care if it's bad for him or not. They won't take one step in helping him cope with his social problems. They will only share their pot with him.

The gay /lesbian community doesn't give a hoot if some kid is LDS and trying to live a chaste life. Yes they will love him/her and give him all kinds of encouragement. They will make sure he knows he can't do a darn thing about his homosexuality. I suppose that must feel good. Whew! I can finally be WHO AM" BUT they will also try to convince him that any church that doesn't allow him to express his sexuality and become involved is mean and hateful. They will destroy his/her testimony of the eternal principles that are so vital for our salvation.

Believe it or not, there are other things that are more important than feeling good about ourselves and being accepted. Standing up for truth and righteousness is more important. WE were told in General Conference today that things will only get harder for memebers of the church in the future as the world continues to turn away from Heavenly Father and His eternal principles. If that means a gay or lesbian person needs to completely avoid others they know are gay and, though loving and accepting, will undermine their determination to stay clean, then so be it. I believe they will be blessed for it. Not an easy road to travel and one of great lonliness. I don't envy them . It must be terribly hard.

I don't expect you to fully understand this since you have never been a member of the church. But this is the way it is. Yes the church is "behind the times" as far as acceptance of gays go. We are struggling with this issue too because we are commanded to love all but we cannot accept any degree of sin as OK in our lives. It puts us between a rock and hard place and at times it pits our spiritual goals against our social sensibilities. We are trying to find a balance. Some members of the church sway drastically to one side or the other. You need to try to understand where we are coming from and believe that we ARE trying to figure it all out. Please quit forever bringing up the past in how we have dealt with gays. We are learning and trying to adjust our thinking. But I can guarantee that unless God tells our prophet that now gay marriage is now sanctioned by Him, it won't be accepted by the majority of church members and there will always be those who fight for all they are worth against it. I am one of those. It really has very little to do with the intinsic value or lack thereof of gay or lesbian people. It has EVERYTHING to do with trying desperately to cling to deeply held beliefs in traditional marriage and the absolute necessity of it to gain celestal life. That may all sound like a fairy tale to you. But it is very real to church members.

Please take a minute to try to put yourself in our shoes, just like you are begging us to understand you.

First off I am a member of the church, though inactive. I do approach it completely from the LDS perspective when i state my case on this site. People including you miss the point even though i spell it out every time. I'll fully accept someone wishing to stay with in the church who is gay never acting on the attractions they have. I'm not sure how many times I've said this over and over. The issue people keep seeming to miss is that the attractions are not the sin, and if they are biological in origin, which explains the almost complete and total failure of changing them, then people need to understand that simple fact.

I've been in your shoes. Ever ask why it took 30 years to struggle with coming out. I was raised Catholic with heavy LDS influence, and then joined The lds church later in life. I'm not ignorant on any of it, and am in a unique position to understand in ways you can't. I know the struggle, i know the way things work in real life vs " well this is what's taught so it's how it is." The gay community doesn't give a hoot if someone goes and has sex, because they leave that free agency in the hands of the person. If the person doesn't want to they say fine, no matter what the reason including religion. And again they aren't telling someone there's nothing they can do, they are telling people that after years of failing to change even a lil bit, they shouldn't hate them selves, or try and kill themselves and maybe accept it's who they are and decided where to go from there. For the most part the backlash at churches isn't aimed at gays expressing them selves, it's been the attitudes of " well you aren't changing, so it's all your fault and you need to be ashamed". I wish people would see the difference. President Hinckley made such strides in this and yet the members seem to miss it.

I agree there are more important things in life that feeling good, but a life of self loathing isn't a life. This is the point that doesn't seem to get through. When a person jumps through all the hurdles, follows every step, makes every sacrifice and is still put down, mocked or chastised because they haven't become what others want, then that's not life, more so when this is your spiritual support. These are the chosen people, the ones you are supposed to turn to to help you avoid temptation, and stay clean, and yet they are the ones causing the damage. I have no problem with the advice you give as long as the supporters in the church are supporting, and that's what this message of born this way comes down to. Don't tell the down syndrome child, the child born with out a limb, the child born blind that they have to change to be good. That if they don't change it's their fault. Don't emphasize that there is something wrong and point it out constantly, accept them and support them on the gospel path. Don't assume they are weak, that they want to rebel, that they have already sinned or it's inevitable for them to stumble. I don't get why this is so hard. no one is advocating the sin, but I've been on the inside, i've been with people like you who just don't get what they are doing wrong. I was a gay member of the church, i left before i came out because i saw what others went through and knew there was no support because no one wanted to listen, they had it all figured out with cookie cutter answers, and being this was only a year or 2 ago.....not so far in the past.

You ask me to not bring up the past, but with so many members clinging to the past teachings and not wishing to move past them, the past must be shown. Do not assume to understand, do not laugh and tell people how little they understand about their lives because you don't have enough humility to say " you are right, i don't know for sure, but if this is the path you really want to walk, i'll be there every step of the way." I can tell you for sure, if anyone in any faith had had humility enough to admit they didn't know all the answers and just been there for support to get me through things it would have changed my perspective a lot.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Soulsearcher

[carlimac]

First off I am a member of the church, though inactive. I do approach it completely from the LDS perspective when i state my case on this site. People including you miss the point even though i spell it out every time. I'll fully accept someone wishing to stay with in the church who is gay never acting on the attractions they have. I'm not sure how many times I've said this over and over. The issue people keep seeming to miss is that the attractions are not the sin, and if they are biological in origin, which explains the almost complete and total failure of changing them, then people need to understand that simple fact.

I've been in your shoes. Ever ask why it took 30 years to struggle with coming out. I was raised Catholic with heavy LDS influence, and then joined The lds church later in life. I'm not ignorant on any of it, and am in a unique position to understand in ways you can't. I know the struggle, i know the way things work in real life vs " well this is what's taught so it's how it is." The gay community doesn't give a hoot if someone goes and has sex, because they leave that free agency in the hands of the person. If the person doesn't want to they say fine, no matter what the reason including religion. And again they aren't telling someone there's nothing they can do, they are telling people that after years of failing to change even a lil bit, they shouldn't hate them selves, or try and kill themselves and maybe accept it's who they are and decided where to go from there. For the most part the backlash at churches isn't aimed at gays expressing them selves, it's been the attitudes of " well you aren't changing, so it's all your fault and you need to be ashamed". I wish people would see the difference. President Hinckley made such strides in this and yet the members seem to miss it.

I agree there are more important things in life that feeling good, but a life of self loathing isn't a life. This is the point that doesn't seem to get through. When a person jumps through all the hurdles, follows every step, makes every sacrifice and is still put down, mocked or chastised because they haven't become what others want, then that's not life, more so when this is your spiritual support. These are the chosen people, the ones you are supposed to turn to to help you avoid temptation, and stay clean, and yet they are the ones causing the damage. I have no problem with the advice you give as long as the supporters in the church are supporting, and that's what this message of born this way comes down to. Don't tell the down syndrome child, the child born with out a limb, the child born blind that they have to change to be good. That if they don't change it's their fault. Don't emphasize that there is something wrong and point it out constantly, accept them and support them on the gospel path. Don't assume they are weak, that they want to rebel, that they have already sinned or it's inevitable for them to stumble. I don't get why this is so hard. no one is advocating the sin, but I've been on the inside, i've been with people like you who just don't get what they are doing wrong. I was a gay member of the church, i left before i came out because i saw what others went through and knew there was no support because no one wanted to listen, they had it all figured out with cookie cutter answers, and being this was only a year or 2 ago.....not so far in the past.

You ask me to not bring up the past, but with so many members clinging to the past teachings and not wishing to move past them, the past must be shown. Do not assume to understand, do not laugh and tell people how little they understand about their lives because you don't have enough humility to say " you are right, i don't know for sure, but if this is the path you really want to walk, i'll be there every step of the way." I can tell you for sure, if anyone in any faith had had humility enough to admit they didn't know all the answers and just been there for support to get me through things it would have changed my perspective a lot.

Sorry. I didn't know you had ever been baptized. I thought you had only been Catholic. And from a few things you have posted lately it sounded like you have more aetheistic leanings than anything else.

NO I don't understand. I can't possibly. I've tried and tried and it just makes no sense to me. But there are a lot of "preferences" that people have in this world that I just can't get. Marachino cherries in ice cream, horror movies, hard acid rock, tongue piercings, rock climbing up steep cliffs thousands of feet above the ground, bright purple wall paint. All those things make me cringe! I will never understand the attraction to any of those things. I'm sure there are lots of things you don't relate to either. But somehow we all have to co-exist on this planet and it requires give and take and tolerance from all. We as LDS know we need to be more tolerant. That message is coming out loud and clear. We need to change our thinking about how we treat gays conscously and sub consciously.

I'm asking you, (I don't know what your current status is- excommunicated, removed your name from the records or just MIA?) to be as tolerant of church members as you are asking us to be of you... to be compassionate of us since you do have inside knowledge of church doctrine. Surely, having had some kind of testimony at some point you should understand how homosexual marriage has no place in Heavenly Father's plan. Also that the way we show love is by encouraging gays and lesbians to stay chaste so that they are eligible for eternal blessings.

I'm going to cherry pick your post a little more. I think comparing your "preferences" to someone born with a congenital problem is ridiculous. Even if in the future it is determined that homosexuality is a genetic mutation or whatever, they DO have control over the choice of engaging in homosexual behavior or not. There is no moral decision that children with Down Syndrome, missing a limb or blind have to make. They just are the way they are. There is no such thing as a Down Syndrome "lifestyle". Whether or not a man or woman submits to the homosexual lifestyle from the way they dress and act (I'm talking the stereotypical gay) to who they go to bed with is a choice. Same for hetero sexuals. Men have the ability to decide if they will take on characteristics of extreme machismo, whether or not they will try to mate with any woman they are attracted to. Hetero women have the same freedom of choice. Without some kind of moral guide for people to follow this world would be a frightful place. I take that back- it already IS a frightful place.

[Soulsearcher]

Sorry. I didn't know you had ever been baptized. I thought you had only been Catholic. And from a few things you have posted lately it sounded like you have more aetheistic leanings than anything else.

NO I don't understand. I can't possibly. I've tried and tried and it just makes no sense to me. But there are a lot of "preferences" that people have in this world that I just can't get. Marachino cherries in ice cream, horror movies, hard acid rock, tongue piercings, rock climbing up steep cliffs thousands of feet above the ground, bright purple wall paint. All those things make me cringe! I will never understand the attraction to any of those things. I'm sure there are lots of things you don't relate to either. But somehow we all have to co-exist on this planet and it requires give and take and tolerance from all. We as LDS know we need to be more tolerant. That message is coming out loud and clear. We need to change our thinking about how we treat gays conscously and sub consciously.

I'm asking you, (I don't know what your current status is- excommunicated, removed your name from the records or just MIA?) to be as tolerant of church members as you are asking us to be of you... to be compassionate of us since you do have inside knowledge of church doctrine. Surely, having had some kind of testimony at some point you should understand how homosexual marriage has no place in Heavenly Father's plan. Also that the way we show love is by encouraging gays and lesbians to stay chaste so that they are eligible for eternal blessings.

I'm going to cherry pick your post a little more. I think comparing your "preferences" to someone born with a congenital problem is ridiculous. Even if in the future it is determined that homosexuality is a genetic mutation or whatever, they DO have control over the choice of engaging in homosexual behavior or not. There is no moral decision that children with Down Syndrome, missing a limb or blind have to make. They just are the way they are. There is no such thing as a Down Syndrome "lifestyle". Whether or not a man or woman submits to the homosexual lifestyle from the way they dress and act (I'm talking the stereotypical gay) to who they go to bed with is a choice. Same for hetero sexuals. Men have the ability to decide if they will take on characteristics of extreme machismo, whether or not they will try to mate with any woman they are attracted to. Hetero women have the same freedom of choice. Without some kind of moral guide for people to follow this world would be a frightful place. I take that back- it already IS a frightful place.

This is where you've missed my point all along. i'm not talking about behaviors. I'm not talking about accepting marriage, or talking accepting fornication. I'm talking about accepting people being born as they are and going from there with how they decide to handle what they are born with. I have the tolerance for the church stance as long as the members are following the stance. I'm all for members staying chaste if that's what they desire, it's the choice they make and it's tough and i wish them all the best. All of my posts have said this, over and over. "born with" an affliction(for lack of a better term) is just that, you make the best of it, blind, down syndrome, gay. It is what it is and you live life from that point. You keep seeing that i condone the behavior and ask members to accept that, when i haven't said such a thing. I'm saying accept the condition for what it is and don't beat down a person because of who they are. The choice to give in is there, i agree, someone staying celibate is still gay, they still have the same attractions, they are still them, just fighting the urges. I'm not sure why this is so hard to separate. People who are straight aren't forced to not be straight and be chaste, most people would think that's silly, they are just told to control their urges. The reason there has been such an issue with gay members is people don't accept them for who they are even when being chaste, they want a full change, "stop being gay or you have failed", instead of "well you are who you are, now lets live the gospel the best way you can"

One of the things that might help you understand is to not see it so much as a preference. Think of the attraction you have to males, not specific ones, just males in general. Is it just like your preference for your favorite food? What you like about certain men, very much could be a simple preference, but the attraction in general would hopefully be something a bit more significant.

As for my church status I am still on the records, though not sure why. I'm more an agnostic at this point because my personal experiences with organized religion have left me very uneasy. Over all I'm tolerant of the members who follow the teachings. I left the church before i came out because in my experience the members weren't following the teachings and i saw no need to even give them the chance, and was proven right when i did tell the members i knew. The difference i tend to see is while I've done the reserch and read the talks and publications and done my best to know every part of the current and past stances, it's not reciprocated by many on the other side. I've said in most every post that i support the church's stance and it's been missed in every post you've read. I've not once condoned going against the church's teachings in this thread and yet you keep finding ways to think that's what i'm saying. Read the words that are said with out trying to find hidden meaning, and take some of what's said as testimony as someone who's got the experience. When i say compare it to a genetic condition, don't try to argue and find fault, think, "well if it is similar, how would i treat such a person going through that trial, would i find fault with who they are or would i look past the condition and work with what they have?" This isn't just coming from me, there are entire support groups for gay mormons who wanted nothing more than to fit in and try to live the gospel, but people wouldn't listen. They wanted to be chaste and live the gospel but people kept trying to fix them, change them, tell them they were wrong about what they knew about themselves, the members missed the forest for the trees, don't try to fix what's not broken. if the story is the same thousands of times over, might it not be time to wonder if maybe it's time to listen? The greatest success stories I've heard of gay members remaining chaste and temple worthy had people listen and not question them, just helped them live their life with support and not always second guessing them.

[ferretrunner]

Why is homosexuality condemned more vocally than any other sin? Why is it more wrong to be homosexual than to steal $5000? Or lie? Or cheat on your spouse? I don't see the LDS Church spending money to pass laws making adultery illegal.... And it seems it's not acting on the attraction that is viewed as wrong- but being. I don't get it. We talk respect for family. What about the gay son/ daughter or cousin?

To me, it seems more productive to let people have their agency while treating homosexual individuals and homosexuality as "just another life challenge." In other words- respect the person.

[ferretrunner]

Yes, we are wired towards many primitive drives. That was my point. We are wired for self protection which can elicit anger and violence. We are wired for hunger and thirst which can lead to selling of one's inheritance, that is how strong that influence can be. We are wired to sleep every night, even though the Lord wished the apostles would stay awake for a little longer in the Garden, these influences are strong and difficult to overcome.

That was my point, that we can't "stop" it but we can control it and we are told to control it in many ways.

If the argument is to "stop it", I agree, that is a lost argument. But that isn't what we are asked to do, we are asked to control our passions. ... to be the master of our passions. When a person says, "I was born this way" that is a step in the direction of saying, "I cannot control these drives". That is why I think it is dangerous to say that to self. The spirit can be stronger than the body but it is not easy. It was never intended to be a non-issue a non-challenge, it is a challenge, a life long challenge for some.

Also, if the goal is to control it, the last thing a person should do is surround themselves with people, voices and ideas of giving into it and promoting it.

How do you control the drives? Can you choose not to be heterosexual? No. You were BORN that way. You CAN choose how to behave. So can someone who is gay. But, the person who's gay who abstains from sex is still GAY. They are still attracted to the same sex. Just like the heterosexual who abstains remains heterosexual.

[carlimac]

What makes you think I don't understand what you're saying? What makes you think I'm trying to change anyone? It sounds to me like you're as stuck in your perception of "the church" as you think we are of gays. You keep telling me the same thing over and over. Don't try to change you. I'm not. I really don't think the church is. All the leaders are asking is for someone with whatever attraction they have to keep the commandments. That is all. The commandments are so simple and straight-forward. If someone wants to undergo "treatment' or whatever they are more than free to.

I read something recently about an LDS person with SSA who didn't even want to define himself as gay. It was something about him but it wasn't him. I prefer that approach. So much less baggage for everyone to worry about.

Edited April 3, 2011 by carlimac

[Soulsearcher]

What makes you think I don't understand what you're saying? What makes you think I'm trying to change anyone? It sounds to me like you're as stuck in your perception of "the church" as you think we are of gays. You keep telling me the same thing over and over. Don't try to change you. I'm not. I really don't think the church is. All the leaders are asking is for someone with whatever attraction they have to keep the commandments. That is all. The commandments are so simple and straight-forward. If someone wants to undergo "treatment' or whatever they are more than free to.

I read something recently about an LDS person with SSA who didn't even want to define himself as gay. It was something about him but it wasn't him. I prefer that approach. So much less baggage for everyone to worry about.

LOL the fact you keep bringing up the behaviors in response to every post i make kinda indicates we aren't on the same page.

The church isn't trying to change anyone, yet the members do still expect change. Personal experiences, numerous stories from support forum, talking to other gay members show this to be true and still current, mostly based on outdated teachings that people are still clinging to. That's what this entire thread has focused on time and time again. Everyone is so sure "born this way" is an excuse to sin, when it has nothing at all to do with sinning. People keep trying to see "born this way" as this evil cop out, when it's just biology that still leaves a choice to not act on it. Does the world end if gays are born gay? I'm not saying you Carlimac are trying to change anyone, but you keep posting things that show you have the same fear of this "excuse" without seeing why it's so important. If it wasn't an issue you could have just let it go a few pages back rather than keep bringing up the excuse to sin idea and why you had issues with the born this way ideas, being all of this was still said pages ago.

And I agree with the whole it's a part of me, it's not who i am, yet the members in my life made it the other way around. I'm much more than a gay person, there are so many more things to me than this.....yet it all came down to my sexuality, and being I'm not exactly an "active" homosexual, there was really nothing to worry about.

[Seminarysnoozer]

The issue is, the church held the stance that "stopping" was the only answer. There are still so many who think that stopping is the only answer. Those who think stopping is the only answer or who think everything is a choice punish those who can't "stop" in numerous ways. The church, mostly under president Hinckley has moved on from that stance, but it's still held by many. If you posess the attractions you are sinning. You make the choice to go against god by holding on to the attractions and not being straight. It's all a choice to feel the way you do and that alone makes you a sinner. You keep saying "born that way" is an easy out, but it's not. It has nothing to do about not being able to control. It's about the inability to change. When every one is telling you that what you can't change is not part of you, when they refuse to accept you as you and even notice you are in control of your desires, the answer " i was born this way" is a response meaning put your money where your mouth is. I was born with this challenge and am willing to fight if i desire to, are you willing to sit down shut up and support as i do it, or just keep up the same old prejudice. As i keep saying though it seems to be missed, the push for people to under stand the possible biological implications came from the spike in suicides because even if people were not sinning they were being cast out and persecuted, time after time they'd try to change, try to do all they could, therapy, prayer, marriage, body mutilation, shock therapy, they tried and tried with all their heart and soul and nothing could "fix them", and after all of their effort the answer was "it's not a part of you, it's just a selfish evil choice, you haven't tried hard enough, you are mocking god, there is no other possible reason but that you are weak evil and selfish." Telling someone who's tried, and i mean tried harder than you might ever imagine, who hates themselves so much, that "you might just be born this way, it can't change, so instead of working so hard in a fruitless battle, why not put you energy toward living in control and maybe just maybe enjoying life in some way" isn't an " i can't control these drives" so much as focusing on the battle that should be fought rather that fighting a battle already lost.

Yes and no. If i surrounded myself with people just from the LDS church, I'd be a basket case. The level of support is so unpredictable and the judgment and mightier than thou attitudes that claim to know what's going on better than i do would not help me try and control it in any way. Since I've come out the greatest of hypocrites I've personally discover have been in the church, and i don't mean that to sound nasty, just my personal experience. I'm not saying the church lacks the ability to support and some of the members on this site have been amazing, but for the most part there's a reason the majority of gays leave the church, and contrary to popular belief it's not just so they can live sin, there are many times it's made clear by family, friends, ward members, that you are just not welcome unless you conform to their ideal. Talking to people who understand and respect you is a great thing. That's where you are going to find the ability to control. Exposure to vice leads to greater temptation, i fully agree, but also people who's been there, done that have a greater ability to help you work through things. Trying to talk to someone who's first response it " gross!!!" or "sinner!!!!" really isn't going to do anything. People who listen to the person with out a preconceived judgment can makes the difference. I guess i also see a difference between what you see. I don't see people or voices saying give in and run with it, i hear accept yourself and make your choices. Live your life proud of who you are, don't make any excuses to others and go from there. I still live my life in shame and fear because of others, i don't live for me cause i'm so worried about what others say, and it's a horrid existence i wouldn't want a young person to go through. If a song of all things can give them strength and a lil hope more power to them, it's all situational, someone in the culture can hear the message while those on the outside rely on "as translated correctly"

That view is one of not wanting "support".

If one has type 2 diabetes because of a genetic predisposition on top of decades of choosing sugar loaded foods, now they have a craving for sugar foods. If they are told to immediately stop (I know for personal reasons and as a nurse counseling people to do just that) they would say the same thing; "I can't" "I am a basket case". I have seen many of my patients even die because of their unwillingness to put an effort into avoiding their passions for sugary food. They suffer a great deal, financially, socially and physically. They do the best when they are not exposed to those options of sugary foods and they don't surround themselves with people who eat that way. Is it fair, no! I don't know why God gave them that challenge. I don't know why, half the time, why God gave me certain challenges in this life. To give into it though and say that this is what my brain is telling me to do so I will just give into it, is not the right direction.

Are people in the church willing and able to support those that have type 2 diabetes? No. Why would I expect the church and any member to approach any other specific physical challenge any differently. It can be supported in general but with skill and expertise, I don't think that would be fair of any specific ailment or condition that anyone faces in this life. Are we to show love and support in general for anyone who is willing to take on the yoke of Christ, yes!

Here is where you and I might differ in our beliefs ... I believe that sexual orientation from the body may not be in alignment with the sexual orientation of the spirit in this life. That sexual orientation could be a challenge and part of this life's test. And it may not really be "who 'you' are" or who any individual thinks they are. It may be that a person is "born that way" but not who they really are "spiritually" as is many physical attributes in this life. I wouldn't and couldn't judge that in any individual any more than I could judge any of their physical challenges. I am just saying that it is possible. Just like my spirit is not diabetic, or may not love chocolate or tobacco or like the aggressiveness of sporting events, etc.

We are fallen creatures and have many short comings and carnal drives that are not in any way reflective of our spiritual drives. I believe that about most of our "personality" and "character" or "talents" in this life. I believe people think that their "tastes" and "drives" and "talents" in this life reflect their spirits personal taste and character, but I think that is wrong. So, this is why I think in general it is good to not allow any carnal or physical passion control you spiritually. We can't have two masters, we can choose a carnal master or a spiritual master. By saying "I was born this way" and don't want to fight that fight any more, then one is saying that they choose to follow the carnal master. ... whatever the passion is.

I would imagine that most who give into that passion believe that their spirit is oriented that way. My honest feeling is that that is not true, it is just their body, their carnal state, not the spiritual state. I am sorry if that offends you or is not compassionate but I would say the same for someone who loves food or any other spiritually controling carnal passion.

[Traveler]

Again your statement seems to miss the point. You've said all human sexuality is an addiction. Not the act of sex, not any of the behaviors, you past posts have stated all human sexuality is addiction. That's what you need to explain. All physiological reactions and such to you are addiction and learned, so we are still waiting for the facts behind this.

As for the excuses and can't, most of the time you hear this from people who have put in the effort you say and it still doesn't work. I don't think you really understand the lengths people have gone through to change and seen no results. I know you think you get it and in your mind it's very clear, but again you are working off assumptions that have no backing in fact beyond what you assume.

I am sorry to not communicate more clearly. I realize this is a very emotionally charged issue and that for many; reason, logic and even science is not really a part of the landscape. Perhaps we need to take a deep breath and reassess.

In order for me to proceed with what I have studied - I need to understand better where a number of your posts as well as other posters (like Darvin) are coming from. Would you indicate, in as much detail as you possibly can your understanding of what constitutes additive behavior? But let’s remove the prejudice involved in the current discussion of sexual behaviors and deal with what distinguishes addictive behaviors with tobacco, alcohol and drugs?

Please be specific and distinguish between addictive behaviors and habitual behaviors as well as the distinguishing characteristics that identify “casual users” from habitual and addictive users. Try to use some semblance of science to garner your conclusions. I realize that at this point it may be difficult to obtain the source but I suggest the March 2004 edition of National Geographic Magazine. Please include in your descriptions the role of various organs - in particular the brain and the cognitive functions of the brain.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

How do you control the drives? Can you choose not to be heterosexual? No. You were BORN that way. You CAN choose how to behave. So can someone who is gay. But, the person who's gay who abstains from sex is still GAY. They are still attracted to the same sex. Just like the heterosexual who abstains remains heterosexual.

Please explain to me why you believe an intelligent creature is born "that way" and cannot "learn" "enjoyable" or “fearful” behaviors? And explain how it is that intelligent individuals are born with "enjoyable" behaviors but that prejudice and hatful behaviors must all be learned. Why can't someone be born with dislikes and likes (“attractions” or lack of attractions) of various cultures and races?

The Traveler

[rameumptom]

The key is, our brains are being wired and rewired continually. For the brain, there is no difference between an addictive or a habitual behavior. It all works to rewire the brain. And we are finding that when a parent rewires his physiology or brain, he ends up changing DNA that is sent to the new born child. So, fat parents tend to have fat children, because it is now part of the DNA makeup. A mother who uses cocaine, passes the addiction down to her child. Parents who study hard and become brainiacs tend to have very intelligent children. Those with emotional issues tend to pass these down, as well.

So a child could be born with a tendency towards homosexual feelings. Agency comes in though, wherein we can overcome many things. The tendency may be with us our entire life, but we can choose the outcomes. For the heavy set child, he can spend his life dieting and exercising. It can be a difficult and arduous struggle, but it may end up passing down a new wiring of genetics to the children, where they won't have the same problems.

My Dad passed down to me a tendency towards alcohol addiction. He got it from his father. I have no doubt that if I were to begin drinking, I wouldn't be able to stop. But I still have the choice to not ever drink a drop of alcohol. Hopefully I will pass on to future generations better genetics.

The biggest issue here is not whether we have tendencies, genetic or otherwise, that we struggle with. The issue is in allowing the Spirit of the Lord and His gospel to sink even deeper into us than our tendencies are. The struggle will continue in this life, but it isn't forever. And in this we can find hope and peace.

[Soulsearcher]

I am sorry to not communicate more clearly. I realize this is a very emotionally charged issue and that for many; reason, logic and even science is not really a part of the landscape. Perhaps we need to take a deep breath and reassess.

In order for me to proceed with what I have studied - I need to understand better where a number of your posts as well as other posters (like Darvin) are coming from. Would you indicate, in as much detail as you possibly can your understanding of what constitutes additive behavior? But let’s remove the prejudice involved in the current discussion of sexual behaviors and deal with what distinguishes addictive behaviors with tobacco, alcohol and drugs?

Please be specific and distinguish between addictive behaviors and habitual behaviors as well as the distinguishing characteristics that identify “casual users” from habitual and addictive users. Try to use some semblance of science to garner your conclusions. I realize that at this point it may be difficult to obtain the source but I suggest the March 2004 edition of National Geographic Magazine. Please include in your descriptions the role of various organs - in particular the brain and the cognitive functions of the brain.

The Traveler

The question i have is what behavior are you talking about? There hasn't been talk of engaging in an behavior. Addictions are shown through action, by carrying out a certain behavior. So what behavior is shown by orientation. Attraction isn't a behavior. This is why people can't figure out where you are coming from with "it's an addiction" because there is no action being taken. What has been refered to is physiological reaction to stimuli. How the body reacts with out conscious choice. I've been asking you to address this from the moment you brought up addictions. I agree certain sexual behaviors can become addictions, but you're current statement is all sex is an addiction, including all human sexual attraction, which makes no sense.

[Soulsearcher]

That view is one of not wanting "support".

If one has type 2 diabetes because of a genetic predisposition on top of decades of choosing sugar loaded foods, now they have a craving for sugar foods. If they are told to immediately stop (I know for personal reasons and as a nurse counseling people to do just that) they would say the same thing; "I can't" "I am a basket case". I have seen many of my patients even die because of their unwillingness to put an effort into avoiding their passions for sugary food. They suffer a great deal, financially, socially and physically. They do the best when they are not exposed to those options of sugary foods and they don't surround themselves with people who eat that way. Is it fair, no! I don't know why God gave them that challenge. I don't know why, half the time, why God gave me certain challenges in this life. To give into it though and say that this is what my brain is telling me to do so I will just give into it, is not the right direction.

Are people in the church willing and able to support those that have type 2 diabetes? No. Why would I expect the church and any member to approach any other specific physical challenge any differently. It can be supported in general but with skill and expertise, I don't think that would be fair of any specific ailment or condition that anyone faces in this life. Are we to show love and support in general for anyone who is willing to take on the yoke of Christ, yes!

Here is where you and I might differ in our beliefs ... I believe that sexual orientation from the body may not be in alignment with the sexual orientation of the spirit in this life. That sexual orientation could be a challenge and part of this life's test. And it may not really be "who 'you' are" or who any individual thinks they are. It may be that a person is "born that way" but not who they really are "spiritually" as is many physical attributes in this life. I wouldn't and couldn't judge that in any individual any more than I could judge any of their physical challenges. I am just saying that it is possible. Just like my spirit is not diabetic, or may not love chocolate or tobacco or like the aggressiveness of sporting events, etc.

We are fallen creatures and have many short comings and carnal drives that are not in any way reflective of our spiritual drives. I believe that about most of our "personality" and "character" or "talents" in this life. I believe people think that their "tastes" and "drives" and "talents" in this life reflect their spirits personal taste and character, but I think that is wrong. So, this is why I think in general it is good to not allow any carnal or physical passion control you spiritually. We can't have two masters, we can choose a carnal master or a spiritual master. By saying "I was born this way" and don't want to fight that fight any more, then one is saying that they choose to follow the carnal master. ... whatever the passion is.

I would imagine that most who give into that passion believe that their spirit is oriented that way. My honest feeling is that that is not true, it is just their body, their carnal state, not the spiritual state. I am sorry if that offends you or is not compassionate but I would say the same for someone who loves food or any other spiritually controling carnal passion.

I do wish people could kind of understand better. Comparing sexual attraction to sweets, and diets and ect really shows that there is a large lack of understanding. Most heterosexuals can't even pinpoint when or why their attraction took hold, it's always been there and it's part of them, ask them when they decided and they tend to look and you blankly and ask why that is important. The fact people keep seeing the "born this way" as an easy out, an unwillingness to live the gospel shows no one is trying to get it. It's not saying "WE GIVE UP" and give in. IT IS NOT TRYING TO MAKE THE SEXUAL BEHAVIORS OK IN ANY WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What it is saying is that, for many after years and years and money and energy invested, there is no change in the desires and urges, maybe just maybe it's who i am and i have to make the choice of living a celibate life to align with the gospel or live a different life. Not once have i said born with way leads to giving in to sexual urges, or following the natural man. It's beyond frustrating that people seem to be missing the entire point. I tried with all my energy to change for 30 years, i gave it everything i had, we've seen other members on this site talk about wishing for nothing more than to get rid of the attractions, going through counseling, missions, hour upon hour of prayer, and not one little bit of change. I've had friends dragged out of their home and thrown in camps run by other churches with the sole intent of changing homosexual desires, heck BYU used shock and drug therapy to try and get them to change. NOTHING WORKS!!!!!!!! The professionals can only show an 8-10% success rate with over half of them admitting in the end it didn't really work they just were tired of being punished and ridiculed and lied about the change. It has nothing to do with giving it, it's trying to get people to treat us like the diabetic. I have never seen a church member go to a diabetic and say " well you made the choice to be diabetic, stop being diabetic right now or you are selfish and evil and i'll cast you out", i have seen this with gays and this is why accepting the biological is important, but being I've said this over and over and people still don't see why it might make a difference i don't know how else to say it. Accept a person is different, it's part of them on this earth, and let them work towards the gospel, don't say they have to cut out a part of them they might not be able to and make that a condition before you support them.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Soulsearcher

[MormonMama]

Soulsearcher, I have also heard it taught in Sacrament Meeting that having feelings of same-sex attraction are not a sin, they are a challenge that the person in question has been born with. Acting on those attractions is where the sin occurs. Similarly, having feelings of attraction, same-sex or not, are not a sin, but acting on those feelings outside of marriage is, regardless of whether it's with the opposite sex or not.

I have bi-polar disorder. I was born with it, so you could say "God made me this way." Or you could say that it just happened and God didn't prevent it. Either way, me being bi-polar is not a sin. I can't help that I'm bi-polar and while it can be treated, I will never be cured. I will struggle with it all my life.

However, if I act out on the negative and violent feelings I sometimes have due to my bi-polar disorder, I am then committing sin. I can't use my bi-polar disorder as an excuse and say, "Well, I can't help myself and God made me this way so He must want me to be physically/mentally/emotionally abusive to people." I know better, and it is that knowledge that I must apply in my life.

And sometimes I will make mistakes. Sometimes my temper or stress levels will be so overwhelming that I act before I even realize I'm going to. Then is the time for repentance. And I need to use my knowledge of my "condition" to do my best to avoid situations that can trigger this behavior (though sometimes there is no trigger, I literally wake up feeling like I want to kill everyone I see; when that happens it's up to me to recognize it and do my best to soothe myself or get away from everyone, to take action to prevent myself from acting on those feelings of violence). But that is the point: it's up to me to do my best and trust in the Lord to do the rest, and sincerely repent when I slip up and try even harder afterward.

[Soulsearcher]

Soulsearcher, I have also heard it taught in Sacrament Meeting that having feelings of same-sex attraction are not a sin, they are a challenge that the person in question has been born with. Acting on those attractions is where the sin occurs. Similarly, having feelings of attraction, same-sex or not, are not a sin, but acting on those feelings outside of marriage is, regardless of whether it's with the opposite sex or not.

I have bi-polar disorder. I was born with it, so you could say "God made me this way." Or you could say that it just happened and God didn't prevent it. Either way, me being bi-polar is not a sin. I can't help that I'm bi-polar and while it can be treated, I will never be cured. I will struggle with it all my life.

However, if I act out on the negative and violent feelings I sometimes have due to my bi-polar disorder, I am then committing sin. I can't use my bi-polar disorder as an excuse and say, "Well, I can't help myself and God made me this way so He must want me to be physically/mentally/emotionally abusive to people." I know better, and it is that knowledge that I must apply in my life.

And sometimes I will make mistakes. Sometimes my temper or stress levels will be so overwhelming that I act before I even realize I'm going to. Then is the time for repentance. And I need to use my knowledge of my "condition" to do my best to avoid situations that can trigger this behavior (though sometimes there is no trigger, I literally wake up feeling like I want to kill everyone I see; when that happens it's up to me to recognize it and do my best to soothe myself or get away from everyone, to take action to prevent myself from acting on those feelings of violence). But that is the point: it's up to me to do my best and trust in the Lord to do the rest, and sincerely repent when I slip up and try even harder afterward.

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

someone gets it. Exactly what i've been saying. There has not been a post on this thread I've said use "born this way" to excuse a single behavior that goes against the gospel. I've been saying exactly what this wonderful woman said in her first 2 paragraphs. It's a response to people like traveler saying " it's an addiction, or choice to be attracted to same sex and you learned it so you can unlearn it." That's all, it's not a blank check to just give in, it's an answer to people saying " why can't you just be normal like we tell you to be" that's it, nothing more.

[MormonMama]

...this wonderful woman....

Awww, thanks!

By the way, straight from the Church website (I bolded one part to make a point):

“People inquire about our position on those who consider themselves so-called gays and lesbians. My response is that we love them as sons and daughters of God. They may have certain inclinations which are powerful and which may be difficult to control. Most people have inclinations of one kind or another at various times. If they do not act upon these inclinations, then they can go forward as do all other members of the Church. If they violate the law of chastity and the moral standards of the Church, then they are subject to the discipline of the Church, just as others are” (Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign , Nov. 1998, 71).

Edited April 3, 2011 by MormonMama

[Soulsearcher]

Awww, thanks!

LOL it's the least i could say after having someone finally get it after 11 pages lol.

[MormonMama]

Here's a quote from Elder Jeffrey R. Holland that I feel sums up what I was trying to say:

You see, same-gender attraction is not a sin, but acting on those feelings is—just as it would be with heterosexual feelings.

This is from his talk, "Helping Those Who Struggle with Same-Gender Attraction", also on the LDS website.

[Soulsearcher]

Here's a quote from Elder Jeffrey R. Holland that I feel sums up what I was trying to say:

This is from his talk, "Helping Those Who Struggle with Same-Gender Attraction", also on the LDS website.

There's an interview with Elder Oaks that the church directs all questions on this topic to. In that interview he even says the church isn't going to take a stance on the source of SSA because it plays little or no factor in the end game, it's all about what they do with it. They highlight a number of changes in addressing the issues, and over all i really enjoy reading the interview every few months.

That’s where our doctrine comes into play. The Church does not have a position on the causes of any of these susceptibilities or inclinations, including those related to same-gender attraction. Those are scientific questions — whether nature or nurture — those are things the Church doesn’t have a position on.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Soulsearcher

[MormonMama]

Without questioned sexuality is acquired (learned)....

I can't agree with this at all, nor have I ever seen any real scientific evidence to support this.

[MormonMama]

So if this homosexuality is totally random and strikes evenly across all societies, why wouldn't we be seeing it more in this city we live in?

Or it could be because the population is smaller? It's basic statistics. The smaller the population or sample size, the less variation you see. That's why small sample sizes are often considered invalid in scientific studies.

Soceity may not impact the number of gay individuals. It does impact whether or not they choose to "come out." Until recently, coming out in the military meant the end of your service. So there obviously were no gays in the military because no one admitted to it, right?

From what you described about where you live and the attitude your post displayed, if I were gay, I wouldn't come out in your community. It wouldn't be safe.

Amen.

[Soulsearcher]

I can't agree with this at all, nor have I ever seen any real scientific evidence to support this.

I'm still kinda waiting for the research that shows this as well. Also waiting for the explanation of how people who have never been around or exposed to any homosexuality end up homosexual if it's a learned behavior. I think people look at society today and forget that a generation back it was very much hidden and not public so exposure was nearly non-existent.

[Traveler]

The question i have is what behavior are you talking about? There hasn't been talk of engaging in an behavior. Addictions are shown through action, by carrying out a certain behavior. So what behavior is shown by orientation. Attraction isn't a behavior. This is why people can't figure out where you are coming from with "it's an addiction" because there is no action being taken. What has been refered to is physiological reaction to stimuli. How the body reacts with out conscious choice. I've been asking you to address this from the moment you brought up addictions. I agree certain sexual behaviors can become addictions, but you're current statement is all sex is an addiction, including all human sexual attraction, which makes no sense.

You are not answering the question. What determines addiction? Do you believe pornography (attraction to certain kinds of photos) can be an addiction? Yes or No? Let’s take alcohol addiction? If you are saying it is 100% behavior - what behavior? Drinking alcohol? What then is the difference between alcohol addiction and someone drinking alcohol that is not addicted?

The Traveler

[MormonMama]

I'm still kinda waiting for the research that shows this as well. Also waiting for the explanation of how people who have never been around or exposed to any homosexuality end up homosexual if it's a learned behavior.

I read a news article on a study years ago which said that the pituitary glad of women is normally smaller than that of men. The pituitary gland of homosexual men is closer in size to that of heterosexual women than to that of heterosexual men (the article did not mention anything about the size of the pituitary gland of homosexual women).

Also, there have been numerous studies of people who exhibit physical trait of both genders, and situations in which an individual has larger-than-normal amounts of the opposite sex hormones for their gender (we all have both estrogen and testosterone and normally women have more estrogen and men have more testosterone). Obviously, the physical factors of gender identity can be altered by genetics, hormones, etc. The pituitary study would seem to indicate that this is true for gender attraction as well. So I'd say there is plenty of scientific evidence that refutes Traveler's claim that sexual attraction is purely a learned behavior.